Part of the key to the social aspect in MMORPGs seems to be keeping everyone together throughout the game.
The biggest key -- really the only one that matters -- is having a playerbase that gives a rat's arse about the social aspect of an MMO.
Blizzard's biggest sin, the one which jaded vets will never forgive WoW for, was making it so you could be social or not, as was your wont at any given time, in any given situation. In doing so it brought the plebes into the market, people who neither needed nor wanted an MMO to be their social life.
These arguments always come down to the social aspect, the article mentioned in the OP rants and raves at length about it. The problem is that WoW didn't destroy the social aspect, it simply allowed for people who neither needed nor wanted an MMO as a social outlet to play in peace without having to kowtow to various geek conventions nor kiss the appropriate butts.
The assumption that MMOs are or should be about the social aspect simply doesn't hold water in the face of WoW's wild success, and for that sin bitter old vets will never forgive it.
The issue, both that is argued every day on this forum and in this thread/article, is that the MMORPG industry has moved away from being massively multiplayer into another model that promotes single player gameplay first and foremost.
MMOs are no longer about how to bring players together to play games whether it be cooperatively or competitively as much as it is about just playing games online independently while other players do the exact same thing, yet separately.
Much of the hate for the "bitter old vets" is that they miss mmorpgs that were based on the concepts of players working together above all else, and all the gameplay and elements that go with that which facilitate immersion and a more believable virtual world.
Which is simply untrue. There is more competition, and cooperation, in modern MMO's than ever before. There are leaderboards, tournaments (sponsored & community), cross-gaming guilds, public voice chat servers, community events, guild events, world boss cooperation, etc.. The list goes on.
Bitter vets are really complaining about questing and leveling, and to some degree dungeons (depends on the MMO).
There are many other aspects to an MMO besides those, and modern MMO's shifted the cooperation and competition to where it really matters.
Part of the key to the social aspect in MMORPGs seems to be keeping everyone together throughout the game.
The biggest key -- really the only one that matters -- is having a playerbase that gives a rat's arse about the social aspect of an MMO.
Blizzard's biggest sin, the one which jaded vets will never forgive WoW for, was making it so you could be social or not, as was your wont at any given time, in any given situation. In doing so it brought the plebes into the market, people who neither needed nor wanted an MMO to be their social life.
These arguments always come down to the social aspect, the article mentioned in the OP rants and raves at length about it. The problem is that WoW didn't destroy the social aspect, it simply allowed for people who neither needed nor wanted an MMO as a social outlet to play in peace without having to kowtow to various geek conventions nor kiss the appropriate butts.
The assumption that MMOs are or should be about the social aspect simply doesn't hold water in the face of WoW's wild success, and for that sin bitter old vets will never forgive it.
The issue, both that is argued every day on this forum and in this thread/article, is that the MMORPG industry has moved away from being massively multiplayer into another model that promotes single player gameplay first and foremost.
MMOs are no longer about how to bring players together to play games whether it be cooperatively or competitively as much as it is about just playing games online independently while other players do the exact same thing, yet separately.
Much of the hate for the "bitter old vets" is that they miss mmorpgs that were based on the concepts of players working together above all else, and all the gameplay and elements that go with that which facilitate immersion and a more believable virtual world.
Which is simply untrue. There is more competition, and cooperation, in modern MMO's than ever before. There are leaderboards, tournaments (sponsored & community), cross-gaming guilds, public voice chat servers, community events, guild events, world boss cooperation, etc.. The list goes on.
Bitter vets are really complaining about questing and leveling, and to some degree dungeons (depends on the MMO).
There are many other aspects to an MMO besides those, and modern MMO's shifted the cooperation and competition to where it really matters.
I simply don't believe that you really think what you're saying is true. That or you weren't around back when mmorpgs were actually massively multiplayer and it was assumed and designed so that people would actually play together.
I play an mmo today, and except for a few random instances (which are literally random now, you push a button and it throws you in one), you never talk or interact with other players at all. Once you get to max level, the vast majority of what you can accomplish is lobby game automated now. Push a button, join a raid. Push a button, join a group. Push a button, join a battleground. Any time, any where. No communication is even necessary. Not before, not during, and not after.
All this states is that you personally have chosen not to communicate. It's your choice now and you choose not to.
A great great great many, hundreds of thousands and millions of people do choose to communicate.
Nope, thats not it either. I try to talk constantly. People are just too busy spamming button and running to the next mark on their gps. If someone actually does respond, they don't want to group because theres no reason. On the off chance they do group, theres almost never an opportunity to talk or even a time when its necessary. Just follow that gps. Mash them button. Rinse and repeat.
Yes that is it. People talk to me all the time, sometimes I start sometimes they start. People in Pugs, guilds, on vent... as he said the list goes on and on.
It's you.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Yes that is it. People talk to me all the time, sometimes I start sometimes they start. People in Pugs, guilds, on vent... as he said the list goes on and on.
It's you.
What a strange coincidence that I've seen this in the last dozen mmos I've played for nearly 10 years and thousands of hours.
I literally get more dialogue from people in planetside2 than I have in any modern mmorpg.
Again it's you. Maybe the way you are approaching it.
Either way it's you. If millions of other people are managing to communicate easily, and they are, but you can't then the issue is you.
- edit - maybe they don't work with your particular communication or personality style. Or maybe you don't like the aspects of the game that the people do communicate in/about.
edit - I know one guild I was with in EQ2 they said they were casual helpful... all the stuff guilds say. When I was there I swear almost every conversation was about getting status points up and getting raids. I personally couldn't give 2 hoots about those so I didn't talk much and they weren't really interested in what I was into, the house building, crafting.... so in the end we didn't communicate a lot.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
omg a WoW hate post on MMORPG.com who would have thought.
wow didn't destroy anything its popular because its fun to many people who would rather play a game than sit on a forum and whine about how MMORPGs suck now. honestly this site should be renamed "whiny former MMORPG players who enjoy basking in each others misery.com.
Again it's you. Maybe the way you are approaching it.
Either way it's you. If millions of other people are managing to communicate easily, and they are, but you can't then the issue is you.
- edit - maybe they don't work with your particular communication or personality style. Or maybe you don't like the aspects of the game that the people do communicate in/about.
You might almost convince me of this if I hadn't seen this same complaint on this very forum hundreds of times before.
What it is in actuality is just that many people don't care for the most part or they've become accustomed to single player massively multiplayer games.
What you just said does not disagree with what I said.
You are right. Many people don't care probably millions.
However millions are still communicating.
edit - this forum has a fairly high percentage (whatever percentage that is) of people that prefer old school style mmo's. The new styles would naturally not agree with them, which again would naturally limit their communication with people that do play/enjoy the new ones. However that does not mean there is less communication, only that they are communicating less with the people that are playing them.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
I've thought and discussed at length this topic in the past and never came to a solid conclusion about it. While I wholly respect and admire Blizzard's design principles and approach to game development the eventual landing point firmly places itself contradictory to the spirit in which the genre was borne.
That is all fine and well as Blizzard has always been a very consumer-centric company; and their success makes it obvious they are giving consumers what they want. Blizzard is particularly talented at producing an experience that is subjectively better for the individual.
I think it went wrong for everyone else when the MMORPG market-share ballooned at the same time of release. Is this attributed to Blizzard or simply the sheer availability of personal computers and broadband? (probably both). But now we have a sudden conflated consumer base that publishers look to when investing on their next title.
All forms of entertainment do this. Reality television is a great example of how this can go wrong. Am I comparing WoW to Reality TV? No. I am comparing it to how consumer ratings of a product affect the market in general. WoW didn't do this, investors/publishers/developers did.
Part of the key to the social aspect in MMORPGs seems to be keeping everyone together throughout the game.
The biggest key -- really the only one that matters -- is having a playerbase that gives a rat's arse about the social aspect of an MMO.
Blizzard's biggest sin, the one which jaded vets will never forgive WoW for, was making it so you could be social or not, as was your wont at any given time, in any given situation. In doing so it brought the plebes into the market, people who neither needed nor wanted an MMO to be their social life.
These arguments always come down to the social aspect, the article mentioned in the OP rants and raves at length about it. The problem is that WoW didn't destroy the social aspect, it simply allowed for people who neither needed nor wanted an MMO as a social outlet to play in peace without having to kowtow to various geek conventions nor kiss the appropriate butts.
The assumption that MMOs are or should be about the social aspect simply doesn't hold water in the face of WoW's wild success, and for that sin bitter old vets will never forgive it.
The issue, both that is argued every day on this forum and in this thread/article, is that the MMORPG industry has moved away from being massively multiplayer into another model that promotes single player gameplay first and foremost.
MMOs are no longer about how to bring players together to play games whether it be cooperatively or competitively as much as it is about just playing games online independently while other players do the exact same thing, yet separately.
Much of the hate for the "bitter old vets" is that they miss mmorpgs that were based on the concepts of players working together above all else, and all the gameplay and elements that go with that which facilitate immersion and a more believable virtual world.
Which is simply untrue. There is more competition, and cooperation, in modern MMO's than ever before. There are leaderboards, tournaments (sponsored & community), cross-gaming guilds, public voice chat servers, community events, guild events, world boss cooperation, etc.. The list goes on.
Bitter vets are really complaining about questing and leveling, and to some degree dungeons (depends on the MMO).
There are many other aspects to an MMO besides those, and modern MMO's shifted the cooperation and competition to where it really matters.
I simply don't believe that you really think what you're saying is true. That or you weren't around back when mmorpgs were actually massively multiplayer and it was assumed and designed so that people would actually play together.
I play an mmo today, and except for a few random instances (which are literally random now, you push a button and it throws you in one), you never talk or interact with other players at all. Once you get to max level, the vast majority of what you can accomplish is lobby game automated now. Push a button, join a raid. Push a button, join a group. Push a button, join a battleground. Any time, any where. No communication is even necessary. Not before, not during, and not after.
So please, don't insult everyone's intelligence.
There was nothing massively multiplayer on camping mobs in 5-8 group 12 hours a day.
Doing dungeon finder instead finding a group of like mided people to play with is your choice. Dont whine because you make bad choices. Oh yes, you have actual choice now.
Again it's you. Maybe the way you are approaching it.
Either way it's you. If millions of other people are managing to communicate easily, and they are, but you can't then the issue is you.
- edit - maybe they don't work with your particular communication or personality style. Or maybe you don't like the aspects of the game that the people do communicate in/about.
You might almost convince me of this if I hadn't seen this same complaint on this very forum hundreds of times before.
What it is in actuality is just that many people don't care for the most part or they've become accustomed to single player massively multiplayer games.
And that complain is from same sort of people that call themselves "jaded vets".
Yes, they all might have a common problem.
Oh, and they all do same mistake of assigning properties to features that are just non existant.
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar Yes that is it. People talk to me all the time, sometimes I start sometimes they start. People in Pugs, guilds, on vent... as he said the list goes on and on.
It's you.
You may have discounted the varying personality quirks of people in social interaction. For one a game with practically no down-time is not conducive of casual conversation. Also slam someone into a situation that is continuous combat and rush to the end formula you might as well be talking to a wall when you do try to interact.
I can easily chatter away at a group even in these circumstances but when there is no need for efficiency, nothing to fill the void, because the game itself is trying to ensure there is no void -- you end up with a vacuous encounter with 3-6 other individuals you will likely never speak to again.
That is something that became immediately apparent to me about WoWs mechanics, unless you join a guild; even then only a raiding guild. What if I don't care to raid much. Sucks to be me I guess.
Edit: To clarify, I want a mix of social interaction, challenge, and downtime. To get all three pretty much required raiding. I have never found raid centered play fun. Too many people, gameplay is too one dimensional.
There is less of a need for people then in old games. That however is a different argument. There is still a great deal of communication but the need for it is less. People choose to do it now because they want to, not because they need to.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Part of the key to the social aspect in MMORPGs seems to be keeping everyone together throughout the game.
The biggest key -- really the only one that matters -- is having a playerbase that gives a rat's arse about the social aspect of an MMO.
Blizzard's biggest sin, the one which jaded vets will never forgive WoW for, was making it so you could be social or not, as was your wont at any given time, in any given situation. In doing so it brought the plebes into the market, people who neither needed nor wanted an MMO to be their social life.
These arguments always come down to the social aspect, the article mentioned in the OP rants and raves at length about it. The problem is that WoW didn't destroy the social aspect, it simply allowed for people who neither needed nor wanted an MMO as a social outlet to play in peace without having to kowtow to various geek conventions nor kiss the appropriate butts.
The assumption that MMOs are or should be about the social aspect simply doesn't hold water in the face of WoW's wild success, and for that sin bitter old vets will never forgive it.
The issue, both that is argued every day on this forum and in this thread/article, is that the MMORPG industry has moved away from being massively multiplayer into another model that promotes single player gameplay first and foremost.
MMOs are no longer about how to bring players together to play games whether it be cooperatively or competitively as much as it is about just playing games online independently while other players do the exact same thing, yet separately.
Much of the hate for the "bitter old vets" is that they miss mmorpgs that were based on the concepts of players working together above all else, and all the gameplay and elements that go with that which facilitate immersion and a more believable virtual world.
Which is simply untrue. There is more competition, and cooperation, in modern MMO's than ever before. There are leaderboards, tournaments (sponsored & community), cross-gaming guilds, public voice chat servers, community events, guild events, world boss cooperation, etc.. The list goes on.
Bitter vets are really complaining about questing and leveling, and to some degree dungeons (depends on the MMO).
There are many other aspects to an MMO besides those, and modern MMO's shifted the cooperation and competition to where it really matters.
I simply don't believe that you really think what you're saying is true. That or you weren't around back when mmorpgs were actually massively multiplayer and it was assumed and designed so that people would actually play together.
I play an mmo today, and except for a few random instances (which are literally random now, you push a button and it throws you in one), you never talk or interact with other players at all. Once you get to max level, the vast majority of what you can accomplish is lobby game automated now. Push a button, join a raid. Push a button, join a group. Push a button, join a battleground. Any time, any where. No communication is even necessary. Not before, not during, and not after.
So please, don't insult everyone's intelligence.
I'm not insulting anyone's intelligence.
You just can't get past the fact that people don't want to waste time talking about what they had for lunch, or why their kids are crying, or that they took a bath... sorry, but i'm glad i missed out on that socialization.
One can only socialize so much about a game before it becomes mundane and monotonous. It's actually a lot like this thread. People like you clamoring for the old days, ad nauseam.
Some people just want to enjoy the game or movie, without the person next to them "socializing" throughout the encounter/experience.
I've had countless groups where nobody spoke a word before, or after, a group was formed... and this was before dungeon finder tools were the norm.
You're trying to the blame tools, which is ridiculous in itself, and quite frankly, that's insulting people's intelligence.
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar Yes that is it. People talk to me all the time, sometimes I start sometimes they start. People in Pugs, guilds, on vent... as he said the list goes on and on.
It's you.
You may have discounted the varying personality quirks of people in social interaction. For one a game with practically no down-time is not conducive of casual conversation. Also slam someone into a situation that is continuous combat and rush to the end formula you might as well be talking to a wall when you do try to interact.
I can easily chatter away at a group even in these circumstances but when there is no need for efficiency, nothing to fill the void, because the game itself is trying to ensure there is no void -- you end up with a vacuous encounter with 3-6 other individuals you will likely never speak to again.
That is something that became immediately apparent to me about WoWs mechanics, unless you join a guild; even then only a raiding guild. What if I don't care to raid much. Sucks to be me I guess.
Edit: To clarify, I want a mix of social interaction, challenge, and downtime. To get all three pretty much required raiding. I have never found raid centered play fun. Too many people, gameplay is too one dimensional.
That interaction is way overrated by vets. They view it as something special, but it's not. It was only a side-effect of dungeon design.
After several hundred runs of the same dungeons/raids, the novelty wears off, and that interaction isn't as special to people anymore, unless you're some kind of jaded vet who clamors for socialization to fill that "void" of loneliness. I'm not specifically targeting you, but in general.
Originally posted by observer I'm not insulting anyone's intelligence.You just can't get past the fact that people don't want to waste time talking about what they had for lunch, or why their kids are crying, or that they took a bath... sorry, but i'm glad i missed out on that socialization.One can only socialize so much about a game before it becomes mundane and monotonous. It's actually a lot like this thread. People like you clamoring for the old days, ad nauseam.Some people just want to enjoy the game or movie, without the person next to them "socializing" throughout the encounter/experience.I've had countless groups where nobody spoke a word before, or after, a group was formed... and this was before dungeon finder tools were the norm.You're trying to the blame tools, which is ridiculous in itself, and quite frankly, that's insulting people's intelligence.
I find that a fair response. But have you ever felt that downtime was a detriment to your play. I don't mean something over the top like forever regen. But say the kind of downtime that would encourage strategy, efficiency, planning. And if the side result of that is some others got to socialize as well. Would that be a problem?
I am honestly asking. Because this constant button pressing gameplay is why I just stopped altogether. I can type all day but mindless clickity click I get enough of at my job.
Downtime that encouraged strategy or efficiency I'm all for, actually I wouldn't even consider that downtime.
Downtime I refer in these discussions is the sitting 5-10 minutes while waiting for health/mana and times like the 20 minute wait for the boats in EQ then the 20 minute boat ride.
edit - and actually I'll give that to older games. It isn't exclusive to older style games but a dungeon that will let you slink and skulk and feign death to get past mobs. I'd like to see more of that and more variety in ways to take down a boss versus just constant tank and dps. Things like kiting just doesn't happen much anymore.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar Downtime that encouraged strategy or efficiency I'm all for, actually I wouldn't even consider that downtime.Downtime I refer in these discussions is the sitting 5-10 minutes while waiting for health/mana and times like the 20 minute wait for the boats in EQ then the 20 minute boat ride.
Average encounter length? Five minutes of regen time (empty to full) is quite reasonable if your resources are not blown entirely in only a few brief encounters. If 5 minutes is too much you are doing something wrong on the uptime. That is where the strat comes in. This is one of the aspects that tends to get glossed over or redirected in these discussions.
Just imagine for a moment what the streets would be like if there was no speed limit.
I personally can't think of any rational I would agree to where sitting for 5 minutes waiting for something would be something I agree to. 2 minutes is stretching it. 5 minutes, even 20 minutes to plan something out is fine. But 5 minutes of just waiting to play again I don't agree with.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Part of the key to the social aspect in MMORPGs seems to be keeping everyone together throughout the game.
The biggest key -- really the only one that matters -- is having a playerbase that gives a rat's arse about the social aspect of an MMO.
Blizzard's biggest sin, the one which jaded vets will never forgive WoW for, was making it so you could be social or not, as was your wont at any given time, in any given situation. In doing so it brought the plebes into the market, people who neither needed nor wanted an MMO to be their social life.
These arguments always come down to the social aspect, the article mentioned in the OP rants and raves at length about it. The problem is that WoW didn't destroy the social aspect, it simply allowed for people who neither needed nor wanted an MMO as a social outlet to play in peace without having to kowtow to various geek conventions nor kiss the appropriate butts.
The assumption that MMOs are or should be about the social aspect simply doesn't hold water in the face of WoW's wild success, and for that sin bitter old vets will never forgive it.
The issue, both that is argued every day on this forum and in this thread/article, is that the MMORPG industry has moved away from being massively multiplayer into another model that promotes single player gameplay first and foremost.
MMOs are no longer about how to bring players together to play games whether it be cooperatively or competitively as much as it is about just playing games online independently while other players do the exact same thing, yet separately.
Much of the hate for the "bitter old vets" is that they miss mmorpgs that were based on the concepts of players working together above all else, and all the gameplay and elements that go with that which facilitate immersion and a more believable virtual world.
Which is simply untrue. There is more competition, and cooperation, in modern MMO's than ever before. There are leaderboards, tournaments (sponsored & community), cross-gaming guilds, public voice chat servers, community events, guild events, world boss cooperation, etc.. The list goes on.
Bitter vets are really complaining about questing and leveling, and to some degree dungeons (depends on the MMO).
There are many other aspects to an MMO besides those, and modern MMO's shifted the cooperation and competition to where it really matters.
I simply don't believe that you really think what you're saying is true. That or you weren't around back when mmorpgs were actually massively multiplayer and it was assumed and designed so that people would actually play together.
I play an mmo today, and except for a few random instances (which are literally random now, you push a button and it throws you in one), you never talk or interact with other players at all. Once you get to max level, the vast majority of what you can accomplish is lobby game automated now. Push a button, join a raid. Push a button, join a group. Push a button, join a battleground. Any time, any where. No communication is even necessary. Not before, not during, and not after.
So please, don't insult everyone's intelligence.
I'm not insulting anyone's intelligence.
You just can't get past the fact that people don't want to waste time talking about what they had for lunch, or why their kids are crying, or that they took a bath... sorry, but i'm glad i missed out on that socialization.
One can only socialize so much about a game before it becomes mundane and monotonous. It's actually a lot like this thread. People like you clamoring for the old days, ad nauseam.
Some people just want to enjoy the game or movie, without the person next to them "socializing" throughout the encounter/experience.
I've had countless groups where nobody spoke a word before, or after, a group was formed... and this was before dungeon finder tools were the norm.
You're trying to the blame tools, which is ridiculous in itself, and quite frankly, that's insulting people's intelligence.
You relegate communication in a fantasy mmorpg to talking about real life food, crying kids and taking a bath? This is why I can't take what you are saying seriously.
In my years of playing older mmos, I don't recall that being the subject matter we discussed. Usually it was about strategy, class tips, what we were looking to accomplish, items we were hunting for or quests or other things we were working on in the game. Perhaps other info about things someone has accomplished and some tips on how to do the same. Maybe stories about other scenarios in this dungeon or with another player in our group. There was tons of stuff to talk about, and real life very seldom even entered the conversation, especially in the early days of mmo when it was considered rude constantly speaking out of character about the mundane shit most people were trying to get away from during their play session.
Part of the key to the social aspect in MMORPGs seems to be keeping everyone together throughout the game.
The biggest key -- really the only one that matters -- is having a playerbase that gives a rat's arse about the social aspect of an MMO.
Blizzard's biggest sin, the one which jaded vets will never forgive WoW for, was making it so you could be social or not, as was your wont at any given time, in any given situation. In doing so it brought the plebes into the market, people who neither needed nor wanted an MMO to be their social life.
These arguments always come down to the social aspect, the article mentioned in the OP rants and raves at length about it. The problem is that WoW didn't destroy the social aspect, it simply allowed for people who neither needed nor wanted an MMO as a social outlet to play in peace without having to kowtow to various geek conventions nor kiss the appropriate butts.
The assumption that MMOs are or should be about the social aspect simply doesn't hold water in the face of WoW's wild success, and for that sin bitter old vets will never forgive it.
The issue, both that is argued every day on this forum and in this thread/article, is that the MMORPG industry has moved away from being massively multiplayer into another model that promotes single player gameplay first and foremost.
MMOs are no longer about how to bring players together to play games whether it be cooperatively or competitively as much as it is about just playing games online independently while other players do the exact same thing, yet separately.
Much of the hate for the "bitter old vets" is that they miss mmorpgs that were based on the concepts of players working together above all else, and all the gameplay and elements that go with that which facilitate immersion and a more believable virtual world.
Which is simply untrue. There is more competition, and cooperation, in modern MMO's than ever before. There are leaderboards, tournaments (sponsored & community), cross-gaming guilds, public voice chat servers, community events, guild events, world boss cooperation, etc.. The list goes on.
Bitter vets are really complaining about questing and leveling, and to some degree dungeons (depends on the MMO).
There are many other aspects to an MMO besides those, and modern MMO's shifted the cooperation and competition to where it really matters.
I simply don't believe that you really think what you're saying is true. That or you weren't around back when mmorpgs were actually massively multiplayer and it was assumed and designed so that people would actually play together.
I play an mmo today, and except for a few random instances (which are literally random now, you push a button and it throws you in one), you never talk or interact with other players at all. Once you get to max level, the vast majority of what you can accomplish is lobby game automated now. Push a button, join a raid. Push a button, join a group. Push a button, join a battleground. Any time, any where. No communication is even necessary. Not before, not during, and not after.
So please, don't insult everyone's intelligence.
I'm not insulting anyone's intelligence.
You just can't get past the fact that people don't want to waste time talking about what they had for lunch, or why their kids are crying, or that they took a bath... sorry, but i'm glad i missed out on that socialization.
One can only socialize so much about a game before it becomes mundane and monotonous. It's actually a lot like this thread. People like you clamoring for the old days, ad nauseam.
Some people just want to enjoy the game or movie, without the person next to them "socializing" throughout the encounter/experience.
I've had countless groups where nobody spoke a word before, or after, a group was formed... and this was before dungeon finder tools were the norm.
You're trying to the blame tools, which is ridiculous in itself, and quite frankly, that's insulting people's intelligence.
You relegate communication in a fantasy mmorpg to talking about real life food, crying kids and taking a bath? This is why I can't take what you are saying seriously.
In my years of playing older mmos, I don't recall that being the subject matter we discussed. Usually it was about strategy, class tips, what we were looking to accomplish, items we were hunting for or quests or other things we were working on in the game. Perhaps other info about things someone has accomplished and some tips on how to do the same. Maybe stories about other scenarios in this dungeon or with another player in our group. There was tons of stuff to talk about, and real life very seldom even entered the conversation, especially in the early days of mmo when it was considered rude constantly speaking out of character about the mundane shit most people were trying to get away from during their play session.
It happens a lot and still happens. I was soloing in EQ2 just last week, chatting in /general when some guy starts messaging me about how bad his day was, how drunk he was and how the cops busted him twice today (today being that day) for some reason.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
SWG would have survived well if they fixed their game and kept to the vision - a sandbox Star Wars world.
Except people were already leaving SWG even before NGE. The NGE was the result of trying to get people to play. Either way the game was going to die.
EQ2 would have done better if it stuck to it's Everquest roots (more hardcore party based PvE).
EQ2 didnt have a great launch and they had to do a quick relaunch to boot. While a decent enough game it just wasnt near the quality it needed to be to compete with WoW and what it offered then.
WAR would have been good if they focused on the RvR and left the quests/dungeons/raids to WoW.
WAR would have done well had the world design not been utterly pathetic and lazy. It was basically a single road throughout the whole game. No exploration of any kind was available , terrible PvE and the crafting was pitiful too. The PvP could be fun but many unbalances were there that could cause headaches PLUS bad keep design.
AoC would have been good if they embraced the brutality of the IP with open world FFA PvP (with consequence) instead of trying to appease the masses with generic quest driven PvE.
Never played the game but it seemed much more mature than any other game on the market. Though I have heard the game was bad once you left that starter area.
SWTOR would have been good if they embraced the story and character building in true Bioware fashion rather than watering everything down to include WoW-like elements.
Bioware did do what Bioware does.. MMO gamers just arent to impressed with that in an MMORPG. The world design was also pretty bad and funneled.
Rift could have risen further if they had focused on the public event/rift/invasions and more unique class building system then trying to chase the WoW-model of dungeons/raids and instanced PvP.
Rifts quickly become boring along with the classes. A good idea to combine 3 classes into one but when all of them are boring it doesnt matter. Rift is also another case where the world design was horrible.
etc. etc. etc.
etc. etc. etc.
None of these games "failed" or under-performed directly because of WoW - they did the damage to themselves by trying to be like "that other guy" and simply not doing a very good job at it.
You can't blame WoW for its success, you can definitely blame the fools trying to break off their piece of it and failing.
I dont think any of the games failed or struggled because they were trying to be like WoW. It was because they were lacking in their own right.
What it comes down to is Quality. Simple. A game could come out next week that is exactly like WoW that looked different but with the same quality and polish and it would be a success.
Originally posted by VengeSunsoarIt happens a lot and still happens. I was soloing in EQ2 just last week, chatting in /general when some guy starts messaging me about how bad his day was, how drunk he was and how the cops busted him twice today (today being that day) for some reason.
To be fair this happens all the time when people dump shit on you casually. That's just people being people and has nothing to do with encouraging social structures in a community.
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Which is simply untrue. There is more competition, and cooperation, in modern MMO's than ever before. There are leaderboards, tournaments (sponsored & community), cross-gaming guilds, public voice chat servers, community events, guild events, world boss cooperation, etc.. The list goes on.
Bitter vets are really complaining about questing and leveling, and to some degree dungeons (depends on the MMO).
There are many other aspects to an MMO besides those, and modern MMO's shifted the cooperation and competition to where it really matters.
I simply don't believe that you really think what you're saying is true. That or you weren't around back when mmorpgs were actually massively multiplayer and it was assumed and designed so that people would actually play together.
I play an mmo today, and except for a few random instances (which are literally random now, you push a button and it throws you in one), you never talk or interact with other players at all. Once you get to max level, the vast majority of what you can accomplish is lobby game automated now. Push a button, join a raid. Push a button, join a group. Push a button, join a battleground. Any time, any where. No communication is even necessary. Not before, not during, and not after.
So please, don't insult everyone's intelligence.
All this states is that you personally have chosen not to communicate. It's your choice now and you choose not to.
A great great great many, hundreds of thousands and millions of people do choose to communicate.
Nope, thats not it either. I try to talk constantly. People are just too busy spamming button and running to the next mark on their gps. If someone actually does respond, they don't want to group because theres no reason. On the off chance they do group, theres almost never an opportunity to talk or even a time when its necessary. Just follow that gps. Mash them button. Rinse and repeat.
Yes that is it. People talk to me all the time, sometimes I start sometimes they start. People in Pugs, guilds, on vent... as he said the list goes on and on.
It's you.
What a strange coincidence that I've seen this in the last dozen mmos I've played for nearly 10 years and thousands of hours.
I literally get more dialogue from people in planetside2 than I have in any modern mmorpg.
Again it's you. Maybe the way you are approaching it.
Either way it's you. If millions of other people are managing to communicate easily, and they are, but you can't then the issue is you.
- edit - maybe they don't work with your particular communication or personality style. Or maybe you don't like the aspects of the game that the people do communicate in/about.
edit - I know one guild I was with in EQ2 they said they were casual helpful... all the stuff guilds say. When I was there I swear almost every conversation was about getting status points up and getting raids. I personally couldn't give 2 hoots about those so I didn't talk much and they weren't really interested in what I was into, the house building, crafting.... so in the end we didn't communicate a lot.
omg a WoW hate post on MMORPG.com who would have thought.
wow didn't destroy anything its popular because its fun to many people who would rather play a game than sit on a forum and whine about how MMORPGs suck now. honestly this site should be renamed "whiny former MMORPG players who enjoy basking in each others misery.com.
You might almost convince me of this if I hadn't seen this same complaint on this very forum hundreds of times before.
What it is in actuality is just that many people don't care for the most part or they've become accustomed to single player massively multiplayer games.
What you just said does not disagree with what I said.
You are right. Many people don't care probably millions.
However millions are still communicating.
edit - this forum has a fairly high percentage (whatever percentage that is) of people that prefer old school style mmo's. The new styles would naturally not agree with them, which again would naturally limit their communication with people that do play/enjoy the new ones. However that does not mean there is less communication, only that they are communicating less with the people that are playing them.
I've thought and discussed at length this topic in the past and never came to a solid conclusion about it. While I wholly respect and admire Blizzard's design principles and approach to game development the eventual landing point firmly places itself contradictory to the spirit in which the genre was borne.
That is all fine and well as Blizzard has always been a very consumer-centric company; and their success makes it obvious they are giving consumers what they want. Blizzard is particularly talented at producing an experience that is subjectively better for the individual.
I think it went wrong for everyone else when the MMORPG market-share ballooned at the same time of release. Is this attributed to Blizzard or simply the sheer availability of personal computers and broadband? (probably both). But now we have a sudden conflated consumer base that publishers look to when investing on their next title.
All forms of entertainment do this. Reality television is a great example of how this can go wrong. Am I comparing WoW to Reality TV? No. I am comparing it to how consumer ratings of a product affect the market in general. WoW didn't do this, investors/publishers/developers did.
There was nothing massively multiplayer on camping mobs in 5-8 group 12 hours a day.
Doing dungeon finder instead finding a group of like mided people to play with is your choice. Dont whine because you make bad choices. Oh yes, you have actual choice now.
So please, dont insult everyones intelligence.
And that complain is from same sort of people that call themselves "jaded vets".
Yes, they all might have a common problem.
Oh, and they all do same mistake of assigning properties to features that are just non existant.
You may have discounted the varying personality quirks of people in social interaction. For one a game with practically no down-time is not conducive of casual conversation. Also slam someone into a situation that is continuous combat and rush to the end formula you might as well be talking to a wall when you do try to interact.
I can easily chatter away at a group even in these circumstances but when there is no need for efficiency, nothing to fill the void, because the game itself is trying to ensure there is no void -- you end up with a vacuous encounter with 3-6 other individuals you will likely never speak to again.
That is something that became immediately apparent to me about WoWs mechanics, unless you join a guild; even then only a raiding guild. What if I don't care to raid much. Sucks to be me I guess.
Edit: To clarify, I want a mix of social interaction, challenge, and downtime. To get all three pretty much required raiding. I have never found raid centered play fun. Too many people, gameplay is too one dimensional.
Your right.
There is less of a need for people then in old games. That however is a different argument. There is still a great deal of communication but the need for it is less. People choose to do it now because they want to, not because they need to.
I'm not insulting anyone's intelligence.
You just can't get past the fact that people don't want to waste time talking about what they had for lunch, or why their kids are crying, or that they took a bath... sorry, but i'm glad i missed out on that socialization.
One can only socialize so much about a game before it becomes mundane and monotonous. It's actually a lot like this thread. People like you clamoring for the old days, ad nauseam.
Some people just want to enjoy the game or movie, without the person next to them "socializing" throughout the encounter/experience.
I've had countless groups where nobody spoke a word before, or after, a group was formed... and this was before dungeon finder tools were the norm.
You're trying to the blame tools, which is ridiculous in itself, and quite frankly, that's insulting people's intelligence.
That interaction is way overrated by vets. They view it as something special, but it's not. It was only a side-effect of dungeon design.
After several hundred runs of the same dungeons/raids, the novelty wears off, and that interaction isn't as special to people anymore, unless you're some kind of jaded vet who clamors for socialization to fill that "void" of loneliness. I'm not specifically targeting you, but in general.
I find that a fair response. But have you ever felt that downtime was a detriment to your play. I don't mean something over the top like forever regen. But say the kind of downtime that would encourage strategy, efficiency, planning. And if the side result of that is some others got to socialize as well. Would that be a problem?
I am honestly asking. Because this constant button pressing gameplay is why I just stopped altogether. I can type all day but mindless clickity click I get enough of at my job.
Downtime that encouraged strategy or efficiency I'm all for, actually I wouldn't even consider that downtime.
Downtime I refer in these discussions is the sitting 5-10 minutes while waiting for health/mana and times like the 20 minute wait for the boats in EQ then the 20 minute boat ride.
edit - and actually I'll give that to older games. It isn't exclusive to older style games but a dungeon that will let you slink and skulk and feign death to get past mobs. I'd like to see more of that and more variety in ways to take down a boss versus just constant tank and dps. Things like kiting just doesn't happen much anymore.
Average encounter length? Five minutes of regen time (empty to full) is quite reasonable if your resources are not blown entirely in only a few brief encounters. If 5 minutes is too much you are doing something wrong on the uptime. That is where the strat comes in. This is one of the aspects that tends to get glossed over or redirected in these discussions.
Just imagine for a moment what the streets would be like if there was no speed limit.
You relegate communication in a fantasy mmorpg to talking about real life food, crying kids and taking a bath? This is why I can't take what you are saying seriously.
In my years of playing older mmos, I don't recall that being the subject matter we discussed. Usually it was about strategy, class tips, what we were looking to accomplish, items we were hunting for or quests or other things we were working on in the game. Perhaps other info about things someone has accomplished and some tips on how to do the same. Maybe stories about other scenarios in this dungeon or with another player in our group. There was tons of stuff to talk about, and real life very seldom even entered the conversation, especially in the early days of mmo when it was considered rude constantly speaking out of character about the mundane shit most people were trying to get away from during their play session.
It happens a lot and still happens. I was soloing in EQ2 just last week, chatting in /general when some guy starts messaging me about how bad his day was, how drunk he was and how the cops busted him twice today (today being that day) for some reason.
What it comes down to is Quality. Simple. A game could come out next week that is exactly like WoW that looked different but with the same quality and polish and it would be a success.
To be fair this happens all the time when people dump shit on you casually. That's just people being people and has nothing to do with encouraging social structures in a community.