Would people play an MMO where you made a character, assigned them their stats (from a max pool) and picked out their skills and equipment (again, maybe assigning "points" more like a Call of Duty style "pick 12" or whatever).
And then that was it.
You're character never got any "better." Sure you could get cosmetic changes. Sure you could re-assign your stat points and skill points.
But zero power progression.
The game was just then about experiencing content. PvE, PvP, whatever.
Raids, quests, dungeons, open world, RvR, crafting, whatever.
Seriously, zero power progression. No AA, no gear and gear +1, no fireball and fireball +2, zero power progression.
Like hopping into a modern MMO at max level with max gear - and everything in the game is scaled up to that level, including every other player and every NPC/mob.
Would you play such a game?
To me, the RPG part kind of implies Vertical progression. I like vertical progression. Yeah, I know it is pretty much pointless - even though I now have 10x the stats and do 10x the damage, the mobs I'm fighting have 10x the health so really what's the difference?
We spend most of our time at end-game anyway right?
How important is the journey there for you vs. the destination?
Would people play an MMO where you made a character, assigned them their stats (from a max pool) and picked out their skills and equipment (again, maybe assigning "points" more like a Call of Duty style "pick 12" or whatever).
And then that was it.
You're character never got any "better." Sure you could get cosmetic changes. Sure you could re-assign your stat points and skill points.
But zero power progression.
The game was just then about experiencing content. PvE, PvP, whatever.
Raids, quests, dungeons, open world, RvR, crafting, whatever.
Seriously, zero power progression. No AA, no gear and gear +1, no fireball and fireball +2, zero power progression.
Like hopping into a modern MMO at max level with max gear - and everything in the game is scaled up to that level, including every other player and every NPC/mob.
Would you play such a game?
To me, the RPG part kind of implies Vertical progression. I like vertical progression. Yeah, I know it is pretty much pointless - even though I now have 10x the stats and do 10x the damage, the mobs I'm fighting have 10x the health so really what's the difference?
We spend most of our time at end-game anyway right?
How important is the journey there for you vs. the destination?
EvE is very successful, GW2 is very successful. Yes, both feature small amount of vertical progression, but in thegrand scheme of things advancing numbers plays very small part.
In EvE i was more interesting of being able to pilot new type of ship.
And in GW2 majority of people dont really care about ascended gear even if its there.
In the end, in horizontal progression, as you advance theres ever more and more options, and in vertical progression ever less and less options.
Originally posted by BadSpock Question is-Would people play an MMO where you made a character, assigned them their stats (from a max pool) and picked out their skills and equipment (again, maybe assigning "points" more like a Call of Duty style "pick 12" or whatever).And then that was it.
Surely they would. There are plenty of games like this already so I don't see why that couldn't apply to an MMORPG. If they were not so expensive to make that would be an interesting experiment for a PvE game. With this style you would have to make your content worthwhile to consume since that is literally all there is.
I imagine though most people would opt in for a more PvP style game with this design.
If theres downscaling/upscaling throughout most of the game then vertical progression part is irrelevant.
When you can skip all vertical progression part, vertical progression is irrelevant.
Vertical progression exists until it doesn't.
Upscaling only goes so far, sort of as a rule (because if upscaling/downscaling was universal throughout a game, that game wouldn't have implemented vertical progression in the first place. Nobody adds scaling to their game just to remove it entirely. That's just a waste of effort.) So there aren't really examples of games which totally remove their vertical progression via auto-scaling features. Which means vertical progression exists in these games.
If you can skip all vertical progression, then it's irrelevant. But the example you've shown involves time or money, which implies you can't skip it.
The entire point of a game being considered lateral progression is that it's a balanced playing field where nobody has an advantage. Clearly players have time/money advantage in GW2, despite the game being far less vertical than most MMORPGs.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Originally posted by ArtificeVenatus An MMORPG as any RPG, be it video or pen & paper, is about progression of some sort. Progression is part of the journey, like an inward journey to a deeper self actualization of the character. Progression is vertical, with horizontal aspects. Horizontal progression is merely a method with which to expand the choices of and add depth to vertical progression. True horizontal progression, would be along the lines of Unreal Tournament back in the day, Phantasmagoria. Fun games for their genre, not MMORPGs.
What vertical progression if there isnt any or is irrelevant.
If i start with a swrod and open up option to use greatsword, where is this vertical progression?
And there is mistake (maybe intentional) to constantly mention how it should be viewed from MMO perspective but go outside of MMO perspective to argue the point.
Within MMO perspective its just about power plateau. from that it exapnds to actually completely different design philosophy.
Its kinda pointless to view it as "you can use 1 type of weapon, and then use 5 types of weapons, thus there is some number that is going up and so its vertical progression".
graph has 2 axis: horizontal and vertical. If you want mathematical representation.
x axis: number of weapons you can use
y axis: "power" of your character
horizontal: advancing along x axis with y = 0
vertical: advancing along y axis with x = 0
and notice that small degree/angle is allowed for game to be called "horizontal" or "vertical" as in (example)150:2 along any axis you choose. As long as 1 number >> than the other.
If theres downscaling/upscaling throughout most of the game then vertical progression part is irrelevant.
When you can skip all vertical progression part, vertical progression is irrelevant.
Vertical progression exists until it doesn't.
Upscaling only goes so far, sort of as a rule (because if upscaling/downscaling was universal throughout a game, that game wouldn't have implemented vertical progression in the first place. Nobody adds scaling to their game just to remove it entirely. That's just a waste of effort.) So there aren't really examples of games which totally remove their vertical progression via auto-scaling features. Which means vertical progression exists in these games.
If you can skip all vertical progression, then it's irrelevant. But the example you've shown involves time or money, which implies you can't skip it.
The entire point of a game being considered lateral progression is that it's a balanced playing field where nobody has an advantage. Clearly players have time/money advantage in GW2, despite the game being far less vertical than most MMORPGs.
You can skip it completely. ALL of it. Requirement of time and/or money doesnt remove the FACT that you CAN skip it all.
First lvl 80 were 2 days in early access leveling by most ordinary old fashion means.
In a lot of PvE content there is upscaling, and theres ALWAYS downscaling. sPvP is flat line. WvWvW has upscaling. Nobody said there isnt any vertical progression. Point to where soemone claimed that.
BUT there are plenty options to skip it completely, and in grand scheme of things its irrelevant.
In fact, if you dont go to general PvE you wont play as level 1 EVER.
Originally posted by Bladestrom its 1 dimensional thinking. a game has a progression element with a scale on it, so it must be a vertical progression game!
Vertical progression means power progression, so yes most everything with a scale is vertical progression. The majority of things measured by a scale will be vertical (level, stats, etc) and almost never are scales used on lateral things ("articles of vanity clothing unlocked")
We know what a scale is. the point is its not about 1 line on a graph, its about the relationship between all the lines, and how it scales over time. When i refer to 1 dimension I refer to the cherry picking of 1 line of progression for arguments sake.
It takes a pretty warped perspective to call the truth 1-dimensional. "I'm trying to tell this guy sideways is up, but he's so 1-dimensional that he keeps saying only sideways is sideways and up is up. The truth is so infuriating!"
Draw a graph, plot the progression lines, note where lines plateau, note the relationship between the lines and power over others. Open your own mind to reflect on why the GW2 developers say its a horizontal design, and then reflect on why this differs from your opinion. Also, apply a few use case scenarios where you decide to skip a few line. Now do the same on a well known vertical progression game like wow - take spell power for example.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
When people discuss vertical and horizontal, they are referring to progression beyond the max level.
An expansion that raises levels and stats, beyond the original cap, is vertical progression, along with the gear that is released. This isn't true with GW2, as far as we know.
I wouldn't consider Masteries vertical at all, since everyone will have access to them at max level (probably before that too).
Ascended gear is the only vertical system at max level, so i agree with you there.
No, vertical/horizontal progression is just about whether a game has vertical/horizontal progression. No "beyond max level" condition applies. The only "cheat" to get around being considered vertical is if the progression only takes a trivial amount of time (if the other poster's implication that you can start a new character and be maxed in "a few minutes" is true) then that would be get around vertical progression being a factor.
I have to disagree. Once a player hits max level, their class attributes/stats are balanced with everyone else's class.
Once an established playing field is "balanced" between other characters, then there isn't anymore progression, unless you acquire new tiered sets of gear, or other forms of attributes/stat points.
Leveling can be considered the "pre-progression phase", since you are still acquiring base attributes for max level. Once those attributes are capped, then vertical progression begins, whether if it's from acquiring gear, or account based attributes from achievements, AA's, etc..
That is progression. It really depends on the MMO though, since almost all of them vary in their progression of power (aka attributes/stats).
I did not vote for the poll because I am unable to decide which one I like the most. Vertical and Horizontal types of progression have advantages/disadvantages and it is not easy to separate which one gives the better value for me as a player. I do believe that a game should try and offer both forms of progression where applicable.
With vertical progression, I enjoy having that sense of advancement. Having defeated certain types of content and overcome it by being stronger than it ever was. I am able to go back and power through content I would have previously struggled or just managed to defeat prior. This method of gaining in power and/or stature gives me a sense of satisfaction which horizontal progression is unable to provide. However, this also can create an imbalance of power between players which creates hostile relations between the player base as a whole. Have's and have not's are never an ideal situation to put your players in.
With horizontal progression, I enjoy having my gameplay expanded upon. This can come in the form of new skills that my character can use to defeat things in combat. It breaks the redundancy of class mechanics becoming stale and offers fresh perspectives/theories on how to play a given character. Everyone is able to participate in this type of progression because there is no barrier such as with vertical progression, and my gaining access to new avenues of play should, theoretically, not alienate other players from gaming a different way. However, this does not provide me with a sense of advancement that vertical progression does. I sometimes feel that my character is stuck and there is nothing left for me to really do except play how I have been playing already only with a slightly different hitch.
Each type of progression needs to be balanced around each other and dance gracefully together in order to create a most satisfying game experience in my opinion. Choosing one as the "best" one defeat that line of logic for me because I would be claiming one method is superior and should be used over the other when I do not feel that is the case.
Would people play an MMO where you made a character, assigned them their stats (from a max pool) and picked out their skills and equipment (again, maybe assigning "points" more like a Call of Duty style "pick 12" or whatever).
And then that was it.
Surely they would. There are plenty of games like this already so I don't see why that couldn't apply to an MMORPG. If they were not so expensive to make that would be an interesting experiment for a PvE game. With this style you would have to make your content worthwhile to consume since that is literally all there is.
I imagine though most people would opt in for a more PvP style game with this design.
I've often thought of what it would be like to play such a game. Players could chose what skills to put their points into, and the progression part of the game could be to allow the gain of new skills that provide more options, but not more power to a player.
EVE seems to suit me best, having a never ending blend of vertical and horizontal progression options and I continue to pursue both after 5 years of playing.
Now all of this said, I don't think you really have a MMORPG if you don't have some form of vertical progression, I think it's a defining characteristic of the genre, but it doesn't have to be a dominating factor as games such as GW1, 2 prove.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Would people play an MMO where you made a character, assigned them their stats (from a max pool) and picked out their skills and equipment (again, maybe assigning "points" more like a Call of Duty style "pick 12" or whatever).
And then that was it.
Surely they would. There are plenty of games like this already so I don't see why that couldn't apply to an MMORPG. If they were not so expensive to make that would be an interesting experiment for a PvE game. With this style you would have to make your content worthwhile to consume since that is literally all there is.
I imagine though most people would opt in for a more PvP style game with this design.
I've often thought of what it would be like to play such a game. Players could chose what skills to put their points into, and the progression part of the game could be to allow the gain of new skills that provide more options, but not more power to a player.
EVE seems to suit me best, having a never ending blend of vertical and horizontal progression options and I continue to pursue both after 5 years of playing.
Now all of this said, I don't think you really have a MMORPG if you don't have some form of vertical progression, I think it's a defining characteristic of the genre, but it doesn't have to be a dominating factor as games such as GW1, 2 prove.
Thats the direction Pantheon is heading in. They will have slower vertical progression, but not just to be grindy, because they want you to choose your path as you go, making decisions concerning your equipment and abilities. You won't automatically get all your class spells and abilities from gaining levels or visiting a trainer. Much of what you can accomplish in the game will be determined by your horizontal progression rather than just your vertical. Stuff like resist gear for different climates and specific items for using certain specializations or builds.
We know what a scale is. the point is its not about 1 line on a graph, its about the relationship between all the lines, and how it scales over time. When i refer to 1 dimension I refer to the cherry picking of 1 line of progression for arguments sake.
Draw a graph, plot the progression lines, note where lines plateau, note the relationship between the lines and power over others. Open your own mind to reflect on why the GW2 developers say its a horizontal design, and then reflect on why this differs from your opinion. Also, apply a few use case scenarios where you decide to skip a few line. Now do the same on a well known vertical progression game like wow - take spell power for example.
The relationship is irrelevant. If something has verticality, it's vertical.
Planetside 1 was overwhelmingly lateral progression, but I would definitely concede it has tiny scraps of vertical progression (Battle Rank 6 is needed for Personal Shield, and the lateral progression itself was a light form of vertical progression: if the enemy fields tanks and you lacked anti-vehicle weaponry, you wouldn't be able to switch to an AV loadout to beat their tanks.)
It's not my opinion that a level 1 character can't do level 50 content in GW2. It's how the game is set up. The game has vertical progression. Those level 50 monsters have more damage and hitpoints than you can handle at level 1.
When you draw that graph, if it has a vertical (y-axis) element, then the game has vertical progression. Pretty simple and obvious.
You should take your own advice and draw the graph, because your point of failure is comparing "WOW has more verticality" and drawing the incorrect conclusion "so GW2 must be flat". The reality is that once you draw that graph you'll realize that GW2 involves significant vertical progression. It isn't completely flat.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Horizontal is a subset of vertical, which is the only possible leveling system. The true definition of horizontal, is buying a max level character off eBay. The concept of horizontal is all about avoiding leveling and stepping into level cap on day one.
“Horizontal is about expanding the number of different effects or benefits by finding new utilities(perks and skills) and items(Gear and add ons)” This is called re-rolling a max level character. Going to the talent window and spending all your talent point. Pay some Third-world leveling website to get your character to max for you and every “Vertical” game is now horizontal. Don't fool your self, horizontal is nothing but being too lazy to level your own character. It’s all about avoiding the frustration of being under powered or under leveled to clear a zone. It’s all about using a cheat to turn on “EZ” mode.
Play the game for three days then roll over and go to sleep, never to play the game again. That’s what horizontal is all about. If someone gives you kotor and says your character is level 19, just spend your attributes and skill points and equip your gear. Next room is Malak, have at him. You can go back to every planet and fight the mobs all you want. Would you?
It's all about,
avoiding leveling and stepping into level cap on day one
avoiding the frustration of being under powered or under leveled to clear a zone
using a cheat to turn on “EZ” mode
never to play the game again
Pardon any spelling errors
Konfess your cyns and some maybe forgiven Boy: Why can't I talk to Him? Mom: We don't talk to Priests. As if it could exist, without being payed for. F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing. Even telemarketers wouldn't think that. It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
Horizontal is a subset of vertical, which is the only possible leveling system. The true definition of horizontal, is buying a max level character off eBay. The concept of horizontal is all about avoiding leveling and stepping into level cap on day one.
“Horizontal is about expanding the number of different effects or benefits by finding new utilities(perks and skills) and items(Gear and add ons)” This is called re-rolling a max level character. Going to the talent window and spending all your talent point. Pay some Third-world leveling website to get your character to max for you and every “Vertical” game is now horizontal. Don't fool your self, horizontal is nothing but being too lazy to level your own character. It’s all about avoiding the frustration of being under powered or under leveled to clear a zone. It’s all about using a cheat to turn on “EZ” mode.
Play the game for three days then roll over and go to sleep, never to play the game again. That’s what horizontal is all about. If someone gives you kotor and says your character is level 19, just spend your attributes and skill points and equip your gear. Next room is Malak, have at him. You can go back to every planet and fight the mobs all you want. Would you?
It's all about,
avoiding leveling and stepping into level cap on day one
avoiding the frustration of being under powered or under leveled to clear a zone
using a cheat to turn on “EZ” mode
never to play the game again
4. halleluja
and kotor would have worked quite good without levels, theres a nice story progression, levels are quite redundant in kotor.
But i guess giving it a little thought is too much too ask.
Horizontal is a subset of vertical, which is the only possible leveling system. The true definition of horizontal, is buying a max level character off eBay. The concept of horizontal is all about avoiding leveling and stepping into level cap on day one.
“Horizontal is about expanding the number of different effects or benefits by finding new utilities(perks and skills) and items(Gear and add ons)” This is called re-rolling a max level character. Going to the talent window and spending all your talent point. Pay some Third-world leveling website to get your character to max for you and every “Vertical” game is now horizontal. Don't fool your self, horizontal is nothing but being too lazy to level your own character. It’s all about avoiding the frustration of being under powered or under leveled to clear a zone. It’s all about using a cheat to turn on “EZ” mode.
Play the game for three days then roll over and go to sleep, never to play the game again. That’s what horizontal is all about. If someone gives you kotor and says your character is level 19, just spend your attributes and skill points and equip your gear. Next room is Malak, have at him. You can go back to every planet and fight the mobs all you want. Would you?
It's all about,
avoiding leveling and stepping into level cap on day one
avoiding the frustration of being under powered or under leveled to clear a zone
using a cheat to turn on “EZ” mode
never to play the game again
Many action adventure games are horizontal. Meaning you're learned skills and gained skills are often unlockers/utilities vs. powerups. If your whole concept of a MMORPG is leveling to 50 then horizontal gaming maybe a foreign idea to you.
1. No you actually just play a game without levels. A game that's difficulty is actually difficult not multiplication of numbers with basically the same challenge or less sometimes as you fight enemy scaled to you 1-50.
2. Many games without levels or massive vertical progression you get items that allow you to defeat creatures you couldn't before. Example: You walk to the dragon pit and die to dragon because you burn. You instead do quest and get ring of fire resistance that allows you to now face the dragon.
3. Any game can be easy mode. Most MMORPGs are easy mode because every creature you fight your level is scaled to be weaker than you.
Yup, principle of "just ignore everything and embrace tunnel vision"
The game involves power scaling. That's what vertical progression is. People who deny that truth are the deluded ones, not me.
If you want to post a video of a level 1 character beating the hardest boss in the game, feel free.
If you want to post a video of a fresh account reaching max stat progression without paying, feel free.
Otherwise, you're faced with the inconvenient reality that vertical progression exists in GW2 (which is really only inconvenient if you're insistent that the game lacks vertical progression -- if you have no stance of your own and simply accept the truth of the matter, then the truth isn't inconvenient at all...it's just the truth, so it's what you post about.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Horizontal is a subset of vertical, which is the only possible leveling system. The true definition of horizontal, is buying a max level character off eBay. The concept of horizontal is all about avoiding leveling and stepping into level cap on day one.
“Horizontal is about expanding the number of different effects or benefits by finding new utilities(perks and skills) and items(Gear and add ons)” This is called re-rolling a max level character. Going to the talent window and spending all your talent point. Pay some Third-world leveling website to get your character to max for you and every “Vertical” game is now horizontal. Don't fool your self, horizontal is nothing but being too lazy to level your own character. It’s all about avoiding the frustration of being under powered or under leveled to clear a zone. It’s all about using a cheat to turn on “EZ” mode.
Play the game for three days then roll over and go to sleep, never to play the game again. That’s what horizontal is all about. If someone gives you kotor and says your character is level 19, just spend your attributes and skill points and equip your gear. Next room is Malak, have at him. You can go back to every planet and fight the mobs all you want. Would you?
It's all about,
avoiding leveling and stepping into level cap on day one
avoiding the frustration of being under powered or under leveled to clear a zone
using a cheat to turn on “EZ” mode
never to play the game again
If you're not familiar with what horizontal progression is, you shouldn't be posting about what the "true definition" is and what sort of "laziness" it entails.
Horizontal progression is simply progression where your character becomes more flexible, not more powerful. So ebaying a character isn't even a good example of lateral progression, let alone the true definition of horizontal progression.
A good example of horizontal progression is an FPS where you unlock a new weapon (which is balanced with all the other weapons.) Another good example is unlocking a new class (which is balanced with other classes.)
It has nothing to do with being too lazy to level a character or ebaying. It's mostly used as a tool to make PVP meaningful (since beating people just because you've played longer than them is the shallowest form of PVP, whereas beating them only if you're more skilled than them is the deepest form of PVP.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
As someone that played a lot of vertical mmos, i do not want to play a long 'introduction' to reach an end game that has been barely developed especially for a new mmo.
A horizontal progression mmo can develop a lot more appropriate content that I would enjoy rather than play content side lined for a long 'journey' and offers very little development in other areas.
I would tolerate some vertical progression as in some 'story' ofc which would add some context and quality video gamers are familiar with, but nothing too big that detracts from making an actual mmo. With the same stroke, I do not like vertical progressions with long gear grinds as well which imo, takes away from the want to play alts and have fun with that.
Write bad things that are done to you in sand, but write the good things that happen to you on a piece of marble
@a e you are wrong to think you know better than the gw2 developers. they have said openly that the game is horizontal, You are also making shit up to suit your own arguements yet again. No one said gw2 does not have vertical progression elements 'conveniently'. Straw man. As I said plot ths graph of all ths power lines in a game in you head for the lifetime of gw2 and watch it plateau and lines merge.
You seem incapable of looking at the shape of the progression model beyond individual lines of progresses on a scale. Everything progressss on a scale, it's only when you look at the full picture I.e over the lifetime of a game. That you see the model. a dotard could tell you that all games are vertical up to max level, moot moot moot.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Horizontal is a subset of vertical, which is the only possible leveling system. The true definition of horizontal, is buying a max level character off eBay. The concept of horizontal is all about avoiding leveling and stepping into level cap on day one.
“Horizontal is about expanding the number of different effects or benefits by finding new utilities(perks and skills) and items(Gear and add ons)” This is called re-rolling a max level character. Going to the talent window and spending all your talent point. Pay some Third-world leveling website to get your character to max for you and every “Vertical” game is now horizontal. Don't fool your self, horizontal is nothing but being too lazy to level your own character. It’s all about avoiding the frustration of being under powered or under leveled to clear a zone. It’s all about using a cheat to turn on “EZ” mode.
Play the game for three days then roll over and go to sleep, never to play the game again. That’s what horizontal is all about. If someone gives you kotor and says your character is level 19, just spend your attributes and skill points and equip your gear. Next room is Malak, have at him. You can go back to every planet and fight the mobs all you want. Would you?
It's all about,
avoiding leveling and stepping into level cap on day one
avoiding the frustration of being under powered or under leveled to clear a zone
using a cheat to turn on “EZ” mode
never to play the game again
4. halleluja
and kotor would have worked quite good without levels, theres a nice story progression, levels are quite redundant in kotor.
But i guess giving it a little thought is too much too ask.
It would not have been half as good considering that big part of the games (KOTOR 1 & 2) were about starting out as a nobody and then becoming a jedi master/sith lord.
Yeah you should put more thought into what you say.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
Lets try an objective measurement to demonstrate vertical v horizontal (apparently this is not obvious to some)
Measurement : for each month plot the % of the targets life per second that can be taken using available skills on average. The target is irrelevant so lets say against a new max level character with entry level gear in this case. The sample is taken over a 5 year period. The initial % is Y.
Vertical. We can see that the percentage increase every month and does not plateau. Each month the value of Y increases.
Horizontal. We can see that the percentage is much lower at y, as it will eventually plateau resulting in a constant value of y + z after a given amount of time.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Comments
Question is-
Would people play an MMO where you made a character, assigned them their stats (from a max pool) and picked out their skills and equipment (again, maybe assigning "points" more like a Call of Duty style "pick 12" or whatever).
And then that was it.
You're character never got any "better." Sure you could get cosmetic changes. Sure you could re-assign your stat points and skill points.
But zero power progression.
The game was just then about experiencing content. PvE, PvP, whatever.
Raids, quests, dungeons, open world, RvR, crafting, whatever.
Seriously, zero power progression. No AA, no gear and gear +1, no fireball and fireball +2, zero power progression.
Like hopping into a modern MMO at max level with max gear - and everything in the game is scaled up to that level, including every other player and every NPC/mob.
Would you play such a game?
To me, the RPG part kind of implies Vertical progression. I like vertical progression. Yeah, I know it is pretty much pointless - even though I now have 10x the stats and do 10x the damage, the mobs I'm fighting have 10x the health so really what's the difference?
We spend most of our time at end-game anyway right?
How important is the journey there for you vs. the destination?
EvE is very successful, GW2 is very successful. Yes, both feature small amount of vertical progression, but in thegrand scheme of things advancing numbers plays very small part.
In EvE i was more interesting of being able to pilot new type of ship.
And in GW2 majority of people dont really care about ascended gear even if its there.
In the end, in horizontal progression, as you advance theres ever more and more options, and in vertical progression ever less and less options.
Surely they would. There are plenty of games like this already so I don't see why that couldn't apply to an MMORPG. If they were not so expensive to make that would be an interesting experiment for a PvE game. With this style you would have to make your content worthwhile to consume since that is literally all there is.
I imagine though most people would opt in for a more PvP style game with this design.
Vertical progression exists until it doesn't.
Upscaling only goes so far, sort of as a rule (because if upscaling/downscaling was universal throughout a game, that game wouldn't have implemented vertical progression in the first place. Nobody adds scaling to their game just to remove it entirely. That's just a waste of effort.) So there aren't really examples of games which totally remove their vertical progression via auto-scaling features. Which means vertical progression exists in these games.
If you can skip all vertical progression, then it's irrelevant. But the example you've shown involves time or money, which implies you can't skip it.
The entire point of a game being considered lateral progression is that it's a balanced playing field where nobody has an advantage. Clearly players have time/money advantage in GW2, despite the game being far less vertical than most MMORPGs.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
What vertical progression if there isnt any or is irrelevant.
If i start with a swrod and open up option to use greatsword, where is this vertical progression?
And there is mistake (maybe intentional) to constantly mention how it should be viewed from MMO perspective but go outside of MMO perspective to argue the point.
Within MMO perspective its just about power plateau. from that it exapnds to actually completely different design philosophy.
Its kinda pointless to view it as "you can use 1 type of weapon, and then use 5 types of weapons, thus there is some number that is going up and so its vertical progression".
graph has 2 axis: horizontal and vertical. If you want mathematical representation.
x axis: number of weapons you can use
y axis: "power" of your character
horizontal: advancing along x axis with y = 0
vertical: advancing along y axis with x = 0
and notice that small degree/angle is allowed for game to be called "horizontal" or "vertical" as in (example)150:2 along any axis you choose. As long as 1 number >> than the other.
Its after all called horizontal progression
You can skip it completely. ALL of it. Requirement of time and/or money doesnt remove the FACT that you CAN skip it all.
First lvl 80 were 2 days in early access leveling by most ordinary old fashion means.
In a lot of PvE content there is upscaling, and theres ALWAYS downscaling. sPvP is flat line. WvWvW has upscaling. Nobody said there isnt any vertical progression. Point to where soemone claimed that.
BUT there are plenty options to skip it completely, and in grand scheme of things its irrelevant.
In fact, if you dont go to general PvE you wont play as level 1 EVER.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
I have to disagree. Once a player hits max level, their class attributes/stats are balanced with everyone else's class.
Once an established playing field is "balanced" between other characters, then there isn't anymore progression, unless you acquire new tiered sets of gear, or other forms of attributes/stat points.
Leveling can be considered the "pre-progression phase", since you are still acquiring base attributes for max level. Once those attributes are capped, then vertical progression begins, whether if it's from acquiring gear, or account based attributes from achievements, AA's, etc..
That is progression. It really depends on the MMO though, since almost all of them vary in their progression of power (aka attributes/stats).
I did not vote for the poll because I am unable to decide which one I like the most. Vertical and Horizontal types of progression have advantages/disadvantages and it is not easy to separate which one gives the better value for me as a player. I do believe that a game should try and offer both forms of progression where applicable.
With vertical progression, I enjoy having that sense of advancement. Having defeated certain types of content and overcome it by being stronger than it ever was. I am able to go back and power through content I would have previously struggled or just managed to defeat prior. This method of gaining in power and/or stature gives me a sense of satisfaction which horizontal progression is unable to provide. However, this also can create an imbalance of power between players which creates hostile relations between the player base as a whole. Have's and have not's are never an ideal situation to put your players in.
With horizontal progression, I enjoy having my gameplay expanded upon. This can come in the form of new skills that my character can use to defeat things in combat. It breaks the redundancy of class mechanics becoming stale and offers fresh perspectives/theories on how to play a given character. Everyone is able to participate in this type of progression because there is no barrier such as with vertical progression, and my gaining access to new avenues of play should, theoretically, not alienate other players from gaming a different way. However, this does not provide me with a sense of advancement that vertical progression does. I sometimes feel that my character is stuck and there is nothing left for me to really do except play how I have been playing already only with a slightly different hitch.
Each type of progression needs to be balanced around each other and dance gracefully together in order to create a most satisfying game experience in my opinion. Choosing one as the "best" one defeat that line of logic for me because I would be claiming one method is superior and should be used over the other when I do not feel that is the case.
I've often thought of what it would be like to play such a game. Players could chose what skills to put their points into, and the progression part of the game could be to allow the gain of new skills that provide more options, but not more power to a player.
EVE seems to suit me best, having a never ending blend of vertical and horizontal progression options and I continue to pursue both after 5 years of playing.
Now all of this said, I don't think you really have a MMORPG if you don't have some form of vertical progression, I think it's a defining characteristic of the genre, but it doesn't have to be a dominating factor as games such as GW1, 2 prove.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
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Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Thats the direction Pantheon is heading in. They will have slower vertical progression, but not just to be grindy, because they want you to choose your path as you go, making decisions concerning your equipment and abilities. You won't automatically get all your class spells and abilities from gaining levels or visiting a trainer. Much of what you can accomplish in the game will be determined by your horizontal progression rather than just your vertical. Stuff like resist gear for different climates and specific items for using certain specializations or builds.
The relationship is irrelevant. If something has verticality, it's vertical.
Planetside 1 was overwhelmingly lateral progression, but I would definitely concede it has tiny scraps of vertical progression (Battle Rank 6 is needed for Personal Shield, and the lateral progression itself was a light form of vertical progression: if the enemy fields tanks and you lacked anti-vehicle weaponry, you wouldn't be able to switch to an AV loadout to beat their tanks.)
It's not my opinion that a level 1 character can't do level 50 content in GW2. It's how the game is set up. The game has vertical progression. Those level 50 monsters have more damage and hitpoints than you can handle at level 1.
When you draw that graph, if it has a vertical (y-axis) element, then the game has vertical progression. Pretty simple and obvious.
You should take your own advice and draw the graph, because your point of failure is comparing "WOW has more verticality" and drawing the incorrect conclusion "so GW2 must be flat". The reality is that once you draw that graph you'll realize that GW2 involves significant vertical progression. It isn't completely flat.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
Horizontal is a subset of vertical, which is the only possible leveling system. The true definition of horizontal, is buying a max level character off eBay. The concept of horizontal is all about avoiding leveling and stepping into level cap on day one.
“Horizontal is about expanding the number of different effects or benefits by finding new utilities(perks and skills) and items(Gear and add ons)” This is called re-rolling a max level character. Going to the talent window and spending all your talent point. Pay some Third-world leveling website to get your character to max for you and every “Vertical” game is now horizontal. Don't fool your self, horizontal is nothing but being too lazy to level your own character. It’s all about avoiding the frustration of being under powered or under leveled to clear a zone. It’s all about using a cheat to turn on “EZ” mode.
Play the game for three days then roll over and go to sleep, never to play the game again. That’s what horizontal is all about. If someone gives you kotor and says your character is level 19, just spend your attributes and skill points and equip your gear. Next room is Malak, have at him. You can go back to every planet and fight the mobs all you want. Would you?
It's all about,
Boy: Why can't I talk to Him?
Mom: We don't talk to Priests.
As if it could exist, without being payed for.
F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing.
Even telemarketers wouldn't think that.
It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
Yup, principle of "just ignore everything and embrace tunnel vision"
4. halleluja
and kotor would have worked quite good without levels, theres a nice story progression, levels are quite redundant in kotor.
But i guess giving it a little thought is too much too ask.
Many action adventure games are horizontal. Meaning you're learned skills and gained skills are often unlockers/utilities vs. powerups. If your whole concept of a MMORPG is leveling to 50 then horizontal gaming maybe a foreign idea to you.
1. No you actually just play a game without levels. A game that's difficulty is actually difficult not multiplication of numbers with basically the same challenge or less sometimes as you fight enemy scaled to you 1-50.
2. Many games without levels or massive vertical progression you get items that allow you to defeat creatures you couldn't before. Example: You walk to the dragon pit and die to dragon because you burn. You instead do quest and get ring of fire resistance that allows you to now face the dragon.
3. Any game can be easy mode. Most MMORPGs are easy mode because every creature you fight your level is scaled to be weaker than you.
4. Not really worth replying too.
The game involves power scaling. That's what vertical progression is. People who deny that truth are the deluded ones, not me.
If you want to post a video of a level 1 character beating the hardest boss in the game, feel free.
If you want to post a video of a fresh account reaching max stat progression without paying, feel free.
Otherwise, you're faced with the inconvenient reality that vertical progression exists in GW2 (which is really only inconvenient if you're insistent that the game lacks vertical progression -- if you have no stance of your own and simply accept the truth of the matter, then the truth isn't inconvenient at all...it's just the truth, so it's what you post about.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
If you're not familiar with what horizontal progression is, you shouldn't be posting about what the "true definition" is and what sort of "laziness" it entails.
Horizontal progression is simply progression where your character becomes more flexible, not more powerful. So ebaying a character isn't even a good example of lateral progression, let alone the true definition of horizontal progression.
A good example of horizontal progression is an FPS where you unlock a new weapon (which is balanced with all the other weapons.) Another good example is unlocking a new class (which is balanced with other classes.)
It has nothing to do with being too lazy to level a character or ebaying. It's mostly used as a tool to make PVP meaningful (since beating people just because you've played longer than them is the shallowest form of PVP, whereas beating them only if you're more skilled than them is the deepest form of PVP.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
As someone that played a lot of vertical mmos, i do not want to play a long 'introduction' to reach an end game that has been barely developed especially for a new mmo.
A horizontal progression mmo can develop a lot more appropriate content that I would enjoy rather than play content side lined for a long 'journey' and offers very little development in other areas.
I would tolerate some vertical progression as in some 'story' ofc which would add some context and quality video gamers are familiar with, but nothing too big that detracts from making an actual mmo. With the same stroke, I do not like vertical progressions with long gear grinds as well which imo, takes away from the want to play alts and have fun with that.
Write bad things that are done to you in sand, but write the good things that happen to you on a piece of marble
You seem incapable of looking at the shape of the progression model beyond individual lines of progresses on a scale. Everything progressss on a scale, it's only when you look at the full picture I.e over the lifetime of a game. That you see the model. a dotard could tell you that all games are vertical up to max level, moot moot moot.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
It would not have been half as good considering that big part of the games (KOTOR 1 & 2) were about starting out as a nobody and then becoming a jedi master/sith lord.
Yeah you should put more thought into what you say.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Lets try an objective measurement to demonstrate vertical v horizontal (apparently this is not obvious to some)
Measurement : for each month plot the % of the targets life per second that can be taken using available skills on average. The target is irrelevant so lets say against a new max level character with entry level gear in this case. The sample is taken over a 5 year period. The initial % is Y.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D