I often see mmo vets bemoan current titles because dungeons and the like can be soloed or done in 5-10 mins unlike in the past where it was face-stompingly hard (I'm assuming). Nothing wrong wrong with this, I like a challenge myself, but thinking about it further I realized something. Isn't this content BETTER for vets? It's probably not a stretch to say this content was designed with you in mind. By now, most vets are in their 30s or 40s with a family, job, etc with very sparse time.
If challenging/long content WAS developed vets wouldnt be able to participate in it because of their limited time. So shouldnt we be seeing the opposite? Shouldnt vets be praising new developers for making content they can solo between a hectic life?
They seem to think longer, tedious, time consuming, etc is synonymous to challenging and difficult.
Sarcasm? I hope so.
OP, you answered your own question when you said - "... I like a challenge myself ..." (you also assume a lot of nonsense)
It's pretty safe to say that if a task is completed solo and within 5-10 minutes on a regular basis that it's not a very challenging task. Now if the amount of time to complete the task by doing everything flawlessly takes 5-10 minutes, sure, but if flawless is possible that means something is predictable and again, probably not terribly challenging.
Nope, no sarcasm at all. That statement is very true and I'm pretty damn sure you can't disaprove the fact that taking longer is not synonymous to challenge and difficulty.
Originally posted by Bladestrom Ah wait that's not right, it's more like 1 hour walking through beautiful countryside followed by 49 hours walking on a treadmill > 49 hours walking through beautiful countryside followed by 1 hour on a treadmill. Perfect
Yep. Anyone know what the starter area in Rift looks like from memory? I started beta, pushed through the first 5 zones in 10 minutes (or less), turned of the game and never went back. I've been waiting for a good MMO for a very long time.
You sure it's not "I've been waiting for an MMO that fits my taste for a long time?"
Nope, no sarcasm at all. That statement is very true and I'm pretty damn sure you can't disaprove the fact that taking longer is not synonymous to challenge and difficulty.
It's pretty safe to say that if a task is completed solo and within 5-10 minutes on a regular basis that it's not a very challenging task.
Then just make it non-regular.
Put a 10 min timer on a dungeon, and tweak it so that only less than 1% of players in the world can finish it in 10 min. That is your challenge.
You don't need it long to have a challenge.
Another example .. make it pvp. It is a challenge to play 15 min arena, and move to the top of the world ladder (not unlike speed chess). Don't tell me there is no challenge there.
There are plenty of things that are short but challenging.
Duration isn't challenge. It's duration. Only challenge makes you think, and that's independent of duration. All the early MMORPGs I played with their long-lasting open world dungeons certainly involved a lot less thinking than a typical modern WOW dungeon.
Boredom happens. The devs are going to produce a certain amount of content and it will only remain interesting for so long before players are bored of it. But speaking from experience if you take that same content and simply multiply out how long players are forced to engage with it, they're going to be bored much faster because you've essentially watered down the beer.
Which would be a greater challenge for you and give you more of a sense of accomplishment? Running a mile or running a marathon?
Depends, if I have to run that mile in less than 5 mins and can walk the marathon the whole way of course running that mile is more challenging. You see the context that you people can't seem to grasp. So simple yet totally goes over your heads.
So how are you, a person with low standards and expectations, going to be some kind of authority on what is a challenge and what is not, if you have never made or attempted any notable accomplishments?
Or are you acknowledging that you choose to walk a marathon because it's either too hard for you or too lazy to run it?
LOL low standards eh? Never attempted any notable accomplishments eh? You assume all that about me from a simple answer to your question which has nothing to do with those two eh? WOW LMFAO. Definitely enjoying the idiocracy.
Nope, no sarcasm at all. That statement is very true and I'm pretty damn sure you can't disaprove the fact that taking longer is not synonymous to challenge and difficulty.
I did.
Keep dreaming!!!!!! LOL All you did was made me chuckle. For everything you throw at me that takes long and challenging I can throw back at you something that takes a long time but not challenging or difficult. Case in point, those things are not synonymous.
For those people that forget the lack of excitement and a hole day dungeon runs,also subscription abuse,rundown the Everquest era of mmos and made the under dog mmo of bunch pissed off at mmos RTS developers in to the top dog.
You want a straw man kids go for the long term players,or as you like to call the "hardcore"(more like really slow and super mega ultra epic easy core).
If I only have a little time left to play games, I'm not going to waste it on extremely trivial fluff dungeons that I go through in a second.
I played the older games for the satisfaction and the socialization. Why would I suddenly stop wanting that? If I only have 15 minutes, I'm not going to play an MMO.
For those people that forget the lack of excitement and a hole day dungeon runs,also subscription abuse,rundown the Everquest era of mmos and made the under dog mmo of bunch pissed off at mmos RTS developers in to the top dog.
You want a straw man kids go for the long term players,or as you like to call the "hardcore"(more like really slow and super mega ultra epic easy core).
I would argue it was more exciting because you always had to deal with the random element of other people. It was only boring if the zone was empty.
Most games now you are in an instance so the zone is generally empty unless you are in a town. Even then you have instances to limit the amount of people usually.
I doubt I could spend a whole day in a dungeon at this point in my life. I'd probably play a few hours tops. You could likely have a more social (non instanced) game without having to have things that take an entire day to complete.
We should play "MMORPG Buzzword Bingo" with these threads.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own. -- Herman Melville
Which would be a greater challenge for you and give you more of a sense of accomplishment? Running a mile or running a marathon?
The greater sense of accomplishment comes from the one you actually can complete. If running a mile is challenging running a marathon is impossible. Game design problems work in the other direction too, things can be too hard or too time consuming that they create an un-fun frustrating game to play.
Time is the penultimate consumed resource within an MMO and most people make the mistake of thinking of MMOs as closed ecosystems, they aren't. They can't be. Players are external actors and each of them brings to the table a different sized bar of this primary game defining resource: Time. Any balance around the consumption of this resource is already day one going to be unreliable as the primary Actors available time is massively variable across the entire playerbase.
Since most game developers don't want to create niche properties that limit who can play their games, they tend to target (with great reason) the lowest common denominator when balancing along this resource (Time). So yes dungeons are 15 minutes long not so you can get in and get out without having to interact with people, but so that you have more people to interact with!
So, do you think that a person that feels finishing a mile is an accomplishment, respects a person that can finish running a marathon?
Or should people that can finish a marathon be put down or better yet, marathons should be done away with because running marathons are impossible?
So then this is all about personal achievement, its all about respect amoungst your piers, its all about accomplishments in front of the largest audience available. It sounds like an arguement for vainity not one for greater socialization. Is this about playing with other players or having other players watch as you beat their scores. I think most people have been playing the competitve PvE game so long they don't even recognize that, for them, it really is all about the bling. It's not so much that game play isn't challenging enough for you but that too many other players are accomplishing the same thing. It's not that a marathon is longer than a mile its that you want the race to be long enough so that you're the only one left running and you want to be over-rewarded for that accomplishment.
We are starting to approach some of the most fundamental underlying problems with MMOs and to a great extent games in general. How can players with different amounts of X (time, skill, money), all play togeather competitively in the same space and the game still be meaningful and enjoyable for all?
I often see mmo vets bemoan current titles because dungeons and the like can be soloed or done in 5-10 mins unlike in the past where it was face-stompingly hard (I'm assuming). Nothing wrong with this, I like a challenge myself, but thinking about it further I realized something. Isn't this content BETTER for vets? It's probably not a stretch to say this content was designed with you in mind. By now, most vets are in their 30s or 40s with a family, job, etc with very sparse time.
If challenging/long content WAS developed vets wouldnt be able to participate in it because of their limited time. So shouldnt we be seeing the opposite? Shouldnt vets be praising new developers for making content they can solo between a hectic life?
I thought millennials were more opened minded and less opt to sterotype individuals based on age, race or sexual preference?
I suggest OP that you educate yourself and don't assume how people live their lives. Please delete your post due to it's ageism and verbal oppression to older gamers.
Nope, no sarcasm at all. That statement is very true and I'm pretty damn sure you can't disaprove the fact that taking longer is not synonymous to challenge and difficulty.
I did.
Keep dreaming!!!!!! LOL All you did was made me chuckle. For everything you throw at me that takes long and challenging I can throw back at you something that takes a long time but not challenging or difficult. Case in point, those things are not synonymous.
Threw what back at me? You either change the topic or focus replying to statements that are irrelevant to my point.
You dance around answering because you know where this leads and don't even realize that not directly answering the question is an answer in itself, demonstrating that I am right.
If you can't see that making it through the duration of running a marathon is a greater challenge and accomplishment then completing the duration of running a mile, then you are either unreasonable or stupid.
Originally posted by fivoroth Notice how these "vets" talk about work, work, work. That really sounds like fun, working in my games.
It actually is rewarding to work for your rewards as opposed to current games where they hand you epic loot for managing to not drool on your keyboard. Much like real life where you have a sense of accomplishment when you do things yourself or work towards a goal. I know I wouldn't be proud of my degree if the school just handed it to me as soon as they received payment, same applies here.
A degree is different. Degrees are not supposed to be easy and they take 4 years for bachelors and 1 year for masters. Games are recreational activities. I have played a lot of games which were easy but were tons of fun. I have played very challenging games which are also very fun. Yet I have also played games which are easy and boring or challenging and boring.
Also working in the context of a lot of those posts are linked to how long it takes to do something. Challenging does not necessarily mean time consuming. Games like Dota or SC2 don't take incredible amounts of time if you wanted to play them, only 30-40 min at a time but they are super challenging and fun
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
They seem to think longer, tedious, time consuming, etc is synonymous to challenging and difficult.
You obviously have no idea what people are asking for, or you would not write this at all. If you make CURRENT games longer they would be tedious and time consuming without fun and challenge. I agree.
Back in the EQ days dungeons simply used to be HUGE and FUN.
Tedious? Hell no! It was fun. Not because it was big, but because it was well made AND big. if something is fun, you want more of it. That simple.
Time consuming? Yes, no doubt. But if it is fun, that is no negative point at all.
Challenging? Yes, but not because it was long, but because it was possible to fail and die. Something current MMOs don't offer anymore.
Bottomline: Current MMOs lack the fun and quality to make longer dungeons enjoyable. So i do understand why people want shorter, to get it done and forget it. You can not simply make huge dungeons and think it will succeed. You have to make a game that is fun to play. If you got that everyone will want longer dungeons, more dungeons, less quests, more socialization ect.
On the other hand: if you make a game like we keep getting today,... well. The shorter the better. Get your fast fix and be done with it. Or better yet: don't play at all.
LMAO We got a badass here. Noone knows what a fun game is except for him. Too funny.
Really, thats your best retort? I think I have some straws here you can grasp at.
A well deserving retort I might add. Is that the best you got?
Nope, no sarcasm at all. That statement is very true and I'm pretty damn sure you can't disaprove the fact that taking longer is not synonymous to challenge and difficulty.
I did.
Keep dreaming!!!!!! LOL All you did was made me chuckle. For everything you throw at me that takes long and challenging I can throw back at you something that takes a long time but not challenging or difficult. Case in point, those things are not synonymous.
Threw what back at me? You either change the topic or focus replying to statements that are irrelevant to my point.
You dance around answering because you know where this leads and don't even realize that not directly answering the question is an answer in itself, demonstrating that I am right.
If you can't see that making it through the duration of running a marathon is a greater challenge and accomplishment then completing the duration of running a mile, then you are either unreasonable or stupid.
LOL I danced around nothing, you are right about nothing. My point has always been clear. Longer is not synonymous to challenge and difficulty and your one example does not make you right in any way. I can give you plenty of example in which it's not the case. I"m sure the one that's unreasonable and stupid here is you sir and only you.
Nope, no sarcasm at all. That statement is very true and I'm pretty damn sure you can't disaprove the fact that taking longer is not synonymous to challenge and difficulty.
I did.
Keep dreaming!!!!!! LOL All you did was made me chuckle. For everything you throw at me that takes long and challenging I can throw back at you something that takes a long time but not challenging or difficult. Case in point, those things are not synonymous.
Threw what back at me? You either change the topic or focus replying to statements that are irrelevant to my point.
You dance around answering because you know where this leads and don't even realize that not directly answering the question is an answer in itself, demonstrating that I am right.
If you can't see that making it through the duration of running a marathon is a greater challenge and accomplishment then completing the duration of running a mile, then you are either unreasonable or stupid.
LOL I danced around nothing, you are right about nothing. My point has always been clear. Longer is not synonymous to challenge and difficulty and your one example does not make you right in any way. I can give you plenty of example in which it's not the case. I"m sure the one that's unreasonable and stupid here is you sir and only you.
What I do see... a bunch of newbies who comment on things they don't know about. Half of you don't even know what MMO means. You guys didn't play the original games. You didn't know how much variety they offered. Today's games typically have less some how. All these "new" things, but they still have less. But hey, how would you know? You aren't a "vet". Enjoy your uninformed opinions.
Oh please, there are plenty of people that played those old games. They just don't agree with the total exxaggeration from a small niche of people of how good the good old days were. Opinions are opinions, people like you need to stop harping about how your opinion of good is better than others.
And who are you, exactly, to dismiss others memories or experiences as "exaggeration"? Why? Because you don't agree, so therefor, they couldn't have enjoyed themselves that much, and they must be exaggerating?
You don't know what others remember, nor how they remember it. So, you really aught to stop making comments that presume you do.
I did enjoy the slower progression of older MMORPGs. I did enjoy the slower leveling. I did feel it was the golden age of the genre.
Here's the thing. I keep seeing the same strawman arguments being put forth, by a lot of the same names who've been making the same argument for a long time now - even though they've already been told the flaws in their thinking.
The strawman is that older MMO gamers felt "content being longer made it more challenging". No. No, and once more for emphasis... No.
For one, more challenging content is going to take longer by virtue of being more challenging. The more challenging it is, the longer it's going to take to complete. Something tha'ts easy takes very little time to finish. Something that's more difficult takes longer. I don't know why this is such a difficult concept to grasp for some of you. It's pretty self-evident. and applies in just about any situation.
For another, people are projecting their own biases toward newer MMOs onto older games. You have to realize, generally speaking, people weened on older MMOs did not gauge their enjoyment of a game on "how quickly they could finish content". It was not "all about getting to the end game". It was all about getting together with others and doing something fun for an hour or 4, whatever the activity happened to be. "The Real Game" didn't start at level cap. It started at level 1, and included everything the game offered... not just the stuff that got you to level cap the most efficiently.
We were not on a narrow race-track to some finish line. We were in a virtual world, with tons of things to do.
Old-school gamers were, almost literally, all about the journey, not the destination. You'd reach the destination in time. The more important thing was to have fun along the way.
These days, people tend to gauge their enjoyment by how quickly they can level. Those days, people gauged fun by the encounters and experiences they had while logged in, whatever it was they were doing in that time.
In short... If you are looking back on older MMOs through the lens of the typical modern MMO gamer, then you are completely missing the point.
Now, what would be so much nicer - not to mention intellectually honest - is if, rather than trying to tell us why we liked the old-school MMOs, if you'd simply ask us. There are people on these forums who are quite capable of explaining themselves very well. They can give you examples. They can give you explanations. The thing is... you also have to be willing to set your own biases and prejudices and misconceptions aside, open your mind and actually read and comprehend what they are telling you. If you read what they're saying, and all you're thinking is "Nope. Nope. They just thought longer content made it more challenging", then you've completely missed the point.
LMAO totally proves my point. And no, longer is not synonymous to difficult. You sir, are the one that cannot grasp that concept. Taking a year to get to max level in a game is not difficult. It's tedious. Sitting in one spot for hours every day just to get partial level is not difficult. Taking an hour to run from one zone to another is not difficult. I could go on and on.
And who are you to presume how people play there games? And who are you to tell other people their opinions are flawed? Who are you to tell them how they should think?
You are the one that should open up your mind. You are so biased towards your own opinion it's not even funny. It's not freaking black or white. All gamers NEW or OLD play their games differently. They all enjoy their games in their own way. So instead of shoehorning your opnions on to others, speak for your freaking self.
I made a statement that is true to this website, that alot of these posters seem to equate longer means difficulty and I'll stand by that. You can clearly see that in this thead.
The gaping flaw in your argument is that nobody has said that Longer = more difficult. That was something YOU conceptualized when you first replied to the OP. At this point you're just trolling.
The user and all related content has been deleted.
Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
No a 15 minute dungeon is a waste of time. That means there is nothing that makes you think. I done all of WOW dungeons and they are a waste of time from WOTLK on. Cata at least had some good content but not good enough.
Yes FFXIV Duty Finder is WOW's LFD. Both are shit. FFXIV has Party finder which you can say how you are doing the content and what type of players you are looking for. Its like WOW's new group finder and where WoW came up with the Group Finder.
Fast content is pointless you get board because you will do them same 4 instances so many times and will never want to run them again. Unsub and the business loose money. MOP instances and WOTLK instances drove me bat shit insane because they were pointless. They required no more skill than can you mash buttons as fast as possible.
Duration isn't challenge. It's duration. Only challenge makes you think, and that's independent of duration. All the early MMORPGs I played with their long-lasting open world dungeons certainly involved a lot less thinking than a typical modern WOW dungeon.
Boredom happens. The devs are going to produce a certain amount of content and it will only remain interesting for so long before players are bored of it. But speaking from experience if you take that same content and simply multiply out how long players are forced to engage with it, they're going to be bored much faster because you've essentially watered down the beer.
Which would be a greater challenge for you and give you more of a sense of accomplishment? Running a mile or running a marathon?
Depends, if I have to run that mile in less than 5 mins and can walk the marathon the whole way of course running that mile is more challenging. You see the context that you people can't seem to grasp. So simple yet totally goes over your heads.
It totally went over your head too. He wrote running for both examples. No where did he say walk the marathon. So try answering again with that in mind.
No a 15 minute dungeon is a waste of time. That means there is nothing that makes you think. I done all of WOW dungeons and they are a waste of time from WOTLK on. Cata at least had some good content but not good enough.
Yes FFXIV Duty Finder is WOW's LFD. Both are shit. FFXIV has Party finder which you can say how you are doing the content and what type of players you are looking for. Its like WOW's new group finder and where WoW came up with the Group Finder.
Fast content is pointless you get board because you will do them same 4 instances so many times and will never want to run them again. Unsub and the business loose money. MOP instances and WOTLK instances drove me bat shit insane because they were pointless. They required no more skill than can you mash buttons as fast as possible.
Duration isn't challenge. It's duration. Only challenge makes you think, and that's independent of duration. All the early MMORPGs I played with their long-lasting open world dungeons certainly involved a lot less thinking than a typical modern WOW dungeon.
Boredom happens. The devs are going to produce a certain amount of content and it will only remain interesting for so long before players are bored of it. But speaking from experience if you take that same content and simply multiply out how long players are forced to engage with it, they're going to be bored much faster because you've essentially watered down the beer.
Which would be a greater challenge for you and give you more of a sense of accomplishment? Running a mile or running a marathon?
Depends, if I have to run that mile in less than 5 mins and can walk the marathon the whole way of course running that mile is more challenging. You see the context that you people can't seem to grasp. So simple yet totally goes over your heads.
It totally went over your head too. He wrote running for both examples. No where did he say walk the marathon. So try answering again with that in mind.
OK....running......time frame......give me 5 mins to run a mile or a week to run a marathon......I'll take my time RUNNING the marathon, taking breaks, resting, etc but still RUNNING it.....my point still stands......it's all in context.....tell me again longer means exactly challenging and difficult?
What I do see... a bunch of newbies who comment on things they don't know about. Half of you don't even know what MMO means. You guys didn't play the original games. You didn't know how much variety they offered. Today's games typically have less some how. All these "new" things, but they still have less. But hey, how would you know? You aren't a "vet". Enjoy your uninformed opinions.
Oh please, there are plenty of people that played those old games. They just don't agree with the total exxaggeration from a small niche of people of how good the good old days were. Opinions are opinions, people like you need to stop harping about how your opinion of good is better than others.
And who are you, exactly, to dismiss others memories or experiences as "exaggeration"? Why? Because you don't agree, so therefor, they couldn't have enjoyed themselves that much, and they must be exaggerating?
You don't know what others remember, nor how they remember it. So, you really aught to stop making comments that presume you do.
I did enjoy the slower progression of older MMORPGs. I did enjoy the slower leveling. I did feel it was the golden age of the genre.
Here's the thing. I keep seeing the same strawman arguments being put forth, by a lot of the same names who've been making the same argument for a long time now - even though they've already been told the flaws in their thinking.
The strawman is that older MMO gamers felt "content being longer made it more challenging". No. No, and once more for emphasis... No.
For one, more challenging content is going to take longer by virtue of being more challenging. The more challenging it is, the longer it's going to take to complete. Something tha'ts easy takes very little time to finish. Something that's more difficult takes longer. I don't know why this is such a difficult concept to grasp for some of you. It's pretty self-evident. and applies in just about any situation.
For another, people are projecting their own biases toward newer MMOs onto older games. You have to realize, generally speaking, people weened on older MMOs did not gauge their enjoyment of a game on "how quickly they could finish content". It was not "all about getting to the end game". It was all about getting together with others and doing something fun for an hour or 4, whatever the activity happened to be. "The Real Game" didn't start at level cap. It started at level 1, and included everything the game offered... not just the stuff that got you to level cap the most efficiently.
We were not on a narrow race-track to some finish line. We were in a virtual world, with tons of things to do.
Old-school gamers were, almost literally, all about the journey, not the destination. You'd reach the destination in time. The more important thing was to have fun along the way.
These days, people tend to gauge their enjoyment by how quickly they can level. Those days, people gauged fun by the encounters and experiences they had while logged in, whatever it was they were doing in that time.
In short... If you are looking back on older MMOs through the lens of the typical modern MMO gamer, then you are completely missing the point.
Now, what would be so much nicer - not to mention intellectually honest - is if, rather than trying to tell us why we liked the old-school MMOs, if you'd simply ask us. There are people on these forums who are quite capable of explaining themselves very well. They can give you examples. They can give you explanations. The thing is... you also have to be willing to set your own biases and prejudices and misconceptions aside, open your mind and actually read and comprehend what they are telling you. If you read what they're saying, and all you're thinking is "Nope. Nope. They just thought longer content made it more challenging", then you've completely missed the point.
LMAO totally proves my point. And no, longer is not synonymous to difficult. You sir, are the one that cannot grasp that concept. Taking a year to get to max level in a game is not difficult. It's tedious. Sitting in one spot for hours every day just to get partial level is not difficult. Taking an hour to run from one zone to another is not difficult. I could go on and on.
And who are you to presume how people play there games? And who are you to tell other people their opinions are flawed? Who are you to tell them how they should think?
You are the one that should open up your mind. You are so biased towards your own opinion it's not even funny. It's not freaking black or white. All gamers NEW or OLD play their games differently. They all enjoy their games in their own way. So instead of shoehorning your opnions on to others, speak for your freaking self.
I made a statement that is true to this website, that alot of these posters seem to equate longer means difficulty and I'll stand by that. You can clearly see that in this thead.
The gaping flaw in your argument is that nobody has said that Longer = more difficult. That was something YOU conceptualized when you first replied to the OP. At this point you're just trolling.
LMAO the countless responses trying to prove me wrong says otherwise.
. . . Every MMO in the past 6-7 years have only taken about a week to achieve their level caps. A gamer has to literally force themselves to slow down so they can completely milk the experience. In addition, It has changed gear progression into something irrelevant (until max level). There's no reason to get that Rare, Epic, Unique, Legendary, and/or etc weapon from said dungeon as it's going to be replaced 30 minutes later with a green weapon that's significantly better.
. . .Newer gamers then say, "well go back to playing Everquest". . .Everquest has been modified to suite audiences that want trivial content as well. . .
So very sad.. so very true.
To touch on your first point, in addition, there is little or no point to craft gear either before max level (unless you make it for a twink) because one simply will out-level the created gear in a few hours.
Comments
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
Nope, no sarcasm at all. That statement is very true and I'm pretty damn sure you can't disaprove the fact that taking longer is not synonymous to challenge and difficulty.
You sure it's not "I've been waiting for an MMO that fits my taste for a long time?"
I did.
Then just make it non-regular.
Put a 10 min timer on a dungeon, and tweak it so that only less than 1% of players in the world can finish it in 10 min. That is your challenge.
You don't need it long to have a challenge.
Another example .. make it pvp. It is a challenge to play 15 min arena, and move to the top of the world ladder (not unlike speed chess). Don't tell me there is no challenge there.
There are plenty of things that are short but challenging.
LOL low standards eh? Never attempted any notable accomplishments eh? You assume all that about me from a simple answer to your question which has nothing to do with those two eh? WOW LMFAO. Definitely enjoying the idiocracy.
Keep dreaming!!!!!! LOL All you did was made me chuckle. For everything you throw at me that takes long and challenging I can throw back at you something that takes a long time but not challenging or difficult. Case in point, those things are not synonymous.
For those people that forget the lack of excitement and a hole day dungeon runs,also subscription abuse,rundown the Everquest era of mmos and made the under dog mmo of bunch pissed off at mmos RTS developers in to the top dog.
You want a straw man kids go for the long term players,or as you like to call the "hardcore"(more like really slow and super mega ultra epic easy core).
If I only have a little time left to play games, I'm not going to waste it on extremely trivial fluff dungeons that I go through in a second.
I played the older games for the satisfaction and the socialization. Why would I suddenly stop wanting that? If I only have 15 minutes, I'm not going to play an MMO.
I would argue it was more exciting because you always had to deal with the random element of other people. It was only boring if the zone was empty.
Most games now you are in an instance so the zone is generally empty unless you are in a town. Even then you have instances to limit the amount of people usually.
I doubt I could spend a whole day in a dungeon at this point in my life. I'd probably play a few hours tops. You could likely have a more social (non instanced) game without having to have things that take an entire day to complete.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.
-- Herman Melville
So then this is all about personal achievement, its all about respect amoungst your piers, its all about accomplishments in front of the largest audience available. It sounds like an arguement for vainity not one for greater socialization. Is this about playing with other players or having other players watch as you beat their scores. I think most people have been playing the competitve PvE game so long they don't even recognize that, for them, it really is all about the bling. It's not so much that game play isn't challenging enough for you but that too many other players are accomplishing the same thing. It's not that a marathon is longer than a mile its that you want the race to be long enough so that you're the only one left running and you want to be over-rewarded for that accomplishment.
We are starting to approach some of the most fundamental underlying problems with MMOs and to a great extent games in general. How can players with different amounts of X (time, skill, money), all play togeather competitively in the same space and the game still be meaningful and enjoyable for all?
I thought millennials were more opened minded and less opt to sterotype individuals based on age, race or sexual preference?
I suggest OP that you educate yourself and don't assume how people live their lives. Please delete your post due to it's ageism and verbal oppression to older gamers.
And please educate yourself.
Thanks,
Vicodin Taco.
Threw what back at me? You either change the topic or focus replying to statements that are irrelevant to my point.
You dance around answering because you know where this leads and don't even realize that not directly answering the question is an answer in itself, demonstrating that I am right.
If you can't see that making it through the duration of running a marathon is a greater challenge and accomplishment then completing the duration of running a mile, then you are either unreasonable or stupid.
A degree is different. Degrees are not supposed to be easy and they take 4 years for bachelors and 1 year for masters. Games are recreational activities. I have played a lot of games which were easy but were tons of fun. I have played very challenging games which are also very fun. Yet I have also played games which are easy and boring or challenging and boring.
Also working in the context of a lot of those posts are linked to how long it takes to do something. Challenging does not necessarily mean time consuming. Games like Dota or SC2 don't take incredible amounts of time if you wanted to play them, only 30-40 min at a time but they are super challenging and fun
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
A well deserving retort I might add. Is that the best you got?
LOL I danced around nothing, you are right about nothing. My point has always been clear. Longer is not synonymous to challenge and difficulty and your one example does not make you right in any way. I can give you plenty of example in which it's not the case. I"m sure the one that's unreasonable and stupid here is you sir and only you.
See?
That's not for us to decide anymore.
The gaping flaw in your argument is that nobody has said that Longer = more difficult. That was something YOU conceptualized when you first replied to the OP. At this point you're just trolling.
Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
It depends how fat one is.
It totally went over your head too. He wrote running for both examples. No where did he say walk the marathon. So try answering again with that in mind.
OK....running......time frame......give me 5 mins to run a mile or a week to run a marathon......I'll take my time RUNNING the marathon, taking breaks, resting, etc but still RUNNING it.....my point still stands......it's all in context.....tell me again longer means exactly challenging and difficult?
LMAO the countless responses trying to prove me wrong says otherwise.
So very sad.. so very true.
To touch on your first point, in addition, there is little or no point to craft gear either before max level (unless you make it for a twink) because one simply will out-level the created gear in a few hours.