Hero's Journey or Vanguard?

EliasThorne · February 2006

Hi all,

I'm deliberately cross posting this here and in the Vanguard forum to get a good idea of the pro's and con's of each game and I can think of no better (or maybe quicker!) way to get to the heart of each game than to put the question to you guys in these forums.

I know there are fan boi's in each forums and this should if all goes well be very informative, if it doesn't go well then I apologise for baiting trolls ::::36::

I would love to have had reason to post in more forums, but there really doesn't seem to be much out there in the short to mid term!

Thank you all,

Elias...

HJ-Zee · February 2006

I vote Hero's Journey! Yeah yeah so what if I'm a bit biased.

HJ-Zee · February 2006

I vote Hero's Journey! Yeah yeah so what if I'm a bit biased.

EliasThorne · February 2006

LOL, so good you voted twice eh ::::02::

However this is a point in HJ's favour - quick and open responces from GM's can make a game..

Faemus · February 2006

I've checked them both out pretty extensively and I wish I could be more help, but at this point they both look great. Looks like I'll just have to wait and see what it's like to actually sit in the drivers seat of each game before choosing. Wish I had time for both though ::::21::

And I think someone mentioned already, but yah, the GM's here are definitely a point in HJ's favor. Yay communication!

EliasThorne · February 2006

I know both are looking very good, hard to decide.

Another thing I'm hoping to get out of this is what the community's like and so far I'm getting good responses from my mirror thread over at http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion.cfm/load/forums/loadforum/565/loadthread/68143/setstart/1/loadclass/188

Definitely worth a read if you're in the same boat as me..

Lord_Paladin · February 2006

The big difference? Vanguard is gonna be like EQ1. Its made by the same people before SOE became the dark world eater it is now. It's going to be very much a grind game for achiever types.

Hero's Journey is nothing like that. Hero's Journey is a game that will be immresive and very encouraging of RP. Its about customization, and fun, and the story (aka the Journey System). Its about making an alternate character in a believable world.

xDivianaDRx · February 2006

Little known fact among most MMORPG players. The RP part is when it actually becomes the most fun.

Didn't everybody like to pretend when they were kids? What happened to that? It like, became not cool or something.

GobboKnight · February 2006

I'm going with HJ, since I really like their emphasis and encouragement of role-playing, customizability, support of different playstyles, and strong background in the roleplaying area in general. I hated EQ1, and I doubt I'd like Vanguard much better. I can't stand raiding either, and soloability is a must to me.

kaieedge · February 2006

Obviously my vote is going to be for HJ.

My take is like what others have already said. Vanguard looks to be like what the original EQ was before SOE, meaning it will be grind and raid intensive. Neither are really for me.

HJ on the other hand has the best GM's in the business and Simu has a strong role playing background which will make the game come to life and be more immersive imho.

EliasThorne · February 2006

I know the GMs keep on drawing me back to HJ, its a bit of a catch 22 I guess, the Vanguard sister thread (here) seems to have a more passionate user following, but HJ has the GMs who tragically can't be dragged into this I guess due to profiessionalism - most fustrating.... ::::26::

angerr · February 2006

i am obviously a vanguard fanboi, i have my own reasons for wanting to play vanguard just like you all have your reasons for wanting to play HJ.

i just wish there was more information released about HJ, i never rule out any game especially a game that has a strong emphasis on roleplaying.

but like i said in the vanguard version of this thread, at this point there just isn't enough information that i am able to find about HJ to really get me exited about it.

i also know alot of you don't like a game with alot of "grind" and i can defiantly respect that, i personally don't mind a grind or some "spawn camping" if i am chatting and having a good time with my fellow group members.

i think it is also a common assumption that vanguard will be heavily raid-cenric......where in reality it really isn't (as you can see from the quote in my Sig by one of the lead developers of vanguard).

i really don't know at this point how different or alike these two games will be, but I'm not ruling out HJ.....just going to wait until they release more information about it i guess(or wait until you all fill me in more lol ::::28:: ).

EliasThorne · February 2006

I'm very glad you pointed out your sig to me (actually didn't notice it!!) and I had just been reading on the Vanguard forum how raid-centric it might be, so that was good to read as I really don't have enough time in my life to organise my "mob" (yes you know who you are :-P) and sit down for an eight hour raid!!!

Oddly enough I was talking the other ay with a mate of mine about DDO and came to the conclusion that it is good at what it does, it just doesn't do much - one of the missing things to my mind is that "grind", not the dull mob farming, but the old hunting groups I remember from AC2. People there would group for a number of reasons, to do uber quests, to do drop quests (where often you'd split up, scout out and area then converge on your target) and hunting, even then it was nice, if you got a couple of people you couldn't take the big mobs so you went to different areas, that was a large population split naturally into areas and all were equally rewarding.

Anyway I digressed from the point (shock eh? :-D)

To sum up, not a fan of lengthy raids so its nice that they're not going to be compulsory - I know they wont be in HJ and now you've laid one of my Vanguard worries to rest...

thebiv · February 2006

Well I give my vote to HJ, and despite the fact that I am a self proclaimed fan boy, I can tell you what really excites me about this game. First off, as you've mentioned, the GM's and their ability to add content "on the fly". Also as mentioned the strong RP elements. The combo attack system is also very interesting to me and reminds me of chrono trigger and grandia III. Obviously both games are visually impressive. The main reason for my selecting HJ though is my experience with Simu's games in the past. I played their text based mud Gemstone3 for many many years, all these years (and many graphical mmo's) later, I still have never found a game that felt as alive, and as much like a real world as gemstone did. If HJ is only half as immersive, it will still be the most immersive mmorpg I have played in recent years.

You mentioned the community, and how Vanguards is larger and more active on these boards. And that is most certainly accurate. However HJ has a rather sizable following on their play.net forums. (I can't navigate them for the life of me, thus why I post here) Not to mention HJ is really an underground title when compared to a game like vanguard, which is being developed by the forefathers of graphical MMO's.

Despite what either community may say, or who may sway you with pertty wurds! I would say give them both an equal chance, try to get into each beta and what not, and truely decide for yourself, which fits you best.

Arremus · February 2006

From my perspective, it could be argued that in EQ2 "...the majority of content, regardless of level range, is centered around the grouping experience, with the minority focused on more casual content and raid content", with a little more emphisis on solo.
That, however, does not mean that the non-raiders are as 'well off' as the group and solo'ers. Quiet the opposite in fact. If you want to reach the pinacle and have all the uber shyte in EQ2, you need to raid it. You can get the rare crafted gear if you harvest for 8 hours a day too, but it's not up there with Fabled (raid) gear.
And I personally see Vanguard as being much the same. The bulk of the CONTENT is there for groups, but if you really want to get to the top and have the ultimate gear etc... prepare to raid and prepare to camp-grind.
Yay.
I say no.

I've read around the Vanguard FAQs, it sounds kind of interesting in gameplay concepts. But it's the same old pattern. It's like a Caste system (or however its spelt.. like the have in India hehe).
There are those who will play the game to enjoy the content, but will eventually realise that if they want to be getting the top gear, and get into the best guilds to experience the Epic content, they'll need to raid their butts off to equipt themselves and earn the right to raid etc.
It's the raid-MMO mentality.
If you're happy to just play it solo and grouping, and enjoy a piece of rare equipment here and there and not go much beyond the 'casual' game (how I see WoW, screw the grind in that game), then you are welcome to. But in doing so will miss perhaps a small % of the content, but a very rewarding % of content. And that's something his sig doesn't say.

I am looking forward to HJ. As much from the viewpoint of it seems to be a bit more focussed on fun and not on outgrinding your neighbour, and also cos just hanging around in DR is very dang cool. Versatility of class types, armour and weapons that you upgrade as you go, pets that grow with you etc (from memory anyways), this all sounds like a lot of FUN to me.
And most importantly, a glorified LEGO set for the GMs to use, to build entire new CONTENT at any time they like! That alone is a best seller right there.

But, Vanguard and HJ, and Age of Conan, LotR:O, Roma Victor, these games are all just air and words atm. Until final beta is happening and 90% of what they promised is in the game and active, well.. until then it's all words.
And I can guarantee you at least half those games will have the comment "We're planning to put that in sometime after release" said about some of the current 'content that's in the game'.

But as always, this is all just my opinion. Brad McQuaid (?) has probably said other stuff to the contrary, but raid content is raid content. It's where the best gear is, and so if you don't/can't raid, you miss out.

I think it'll probably come down to raiding in Vanguard, or doing quests and live events in HJ. Both are very viable and fun game styles, just depends which you prefer more.

EliasThorne · February 2006

Very well put both of you and thanks again for all your opinions, its interesting to see these points of view and experinces of content.

I personally havent been on a raid as such (been on PvP "raids" into enemy teritory in WoW, DaoC & Horizons), but not the 40+ man raids that appear to be th eend game of Vanguard, tragically I'm not too sure that I'd want to but thankfully I've never been one for uber gear of the day anyway so it might not matter all that much.

darquenblade · February 2006

Coming from someone who is highly interested in both games, I find that while feature-wise, HJ is the game of my friggin' dreams and it comes out on top, I am actually more interested in Vanguard at the moment, simply because it feels more 'real'.

What I mean by that, is that although HJ seems to have everything I would ever want out of an MMO, I just can't seem to shake that 'too good to be true' feeling from it. Simu has indeed been making massively multiplayer games for years and years now, but HJ will be their first foray into the graphical realm. I want very much so to believe that the game will turn out to be as awesome as they say it will, but my naturally pessemisic side (which has been burnt many times over by lofty feature promises) gets in the way of HJ-fanboism .

Now while Vanguard does seem much more traditional in its approach to things compared to what HJ wants to do, it does sound like a very fun game. Currently being an EQ2 player, Vanguard seems to be a positive evolution of the EQ2/WoW style of gameplay, which to me is a very good thing.

I know I'll end up playing both, though. Here's hoping HJ can pull off everthing it hopes to.

Techleo · February 2006

Two very diffrent games to me. One is very similar to SWG, back in the old days. Just a little bit more orgazized. I love being able to buy homes, mounts so on. In fact thats what kept me hooked to SWG. But you end up feeling that its hollow. Because most of the players dont give a rats butt about factions. They just grind to level for the better skills and items. The problem always to me was that the world didnt change. You mite see a player city pop up and little skirmishes go on, but it didnt make the npc cites change because devs left those relatively the same. Just like WoW. A world frozen in time. Vanguard seems to be a attempt to get a old pattern right. I commend them! Heck ill even play it.

Now comes HJ. Ideally it seems preferable to me over vanguard. What caught my attention is how non-centric the game is. The world evolves because devs contantly change it based off players reactions. Items evolve you dont grind. Skills arent plastic, they can me molded to the world like the wall of fire. I love the instancing very much. Personally im a fan of it. Remind me of my first trips into NWN Aol back in the late 1990's. Never knew where youd go. What does bother me about HJ is that theres very little discussion as to how communinty players wil be able to build cities. How do you mine? Where are resources, what resources are there? I know cities need to be defended. But there seems to be more literal and quicker to notice effects in Vanguard. I honestly doubt a dev in HJ is going to show a city underseige, otherwise it would disrupt someones fun. While In Vang. its not a option, so people to play except and excpect it. ANYWAYS. Im at the moment leaning towards Hj. I have money, so im trying both haha.

Jenuviel · February 2006

Some quotes from Developers that explain why Hero's Journey is my main interest:

"In Hero's Journey, your character will have a story arc that is uniquely his or her own. To achieve this effect, we have built a sophisticated mechanism called the Journey System. It is responsible for dynamically creating story elements and plot points as you explore the world of Elanthia. Along the way the system introduces random plot elements drawn from things you do, encounters you've had, people you meet, what others do and major world events. It keeps things moving, keeps them interesting and makes your play experience unique to that character. As an added bonus, this greatly enhances replayability if you want to start over (maybe to try a different profession)."

-David Whatley, June 03, 2005

"Like players, creatures can grow in experience. As one example, your character may even develop an ongoing antagonistic relationship with a particular creature it, in effect, becoming your nemesis! As you journey through the game, hell keep popping up to harass you in one form or another, but like you hell be growing in power, abilities and (perhaps) minions. This is part of the dynamic story mechanism called the Journey System."

-Chris Moore

"Additionally, with the journey system, you won't get the same set of quests every time you start a new hero. The goal is for every hero in game to have their own unique story instead of providing the same static quests to everyone who plays."

-Xadrian, August 08, 2005

"So how do we make a crafting system that is more fun and less tedious? The first thing you do is divorce the term crafting from what MMOs have done in the past and start over at a conceptual level. What is a Heroic crafter? A good example would be Hatori Hanzo from the movie Kill Bill. He did not gather raw materials for samurai swords, nor mass-produce the blades on a day-in and day-out basis. Rather, he probably made relatively few of them, but they were of such quality, of such renown a true heros weapon. Thats what a crafting system should really be like."

-Aaron Standridge

"Early on, we made a great effort to redesign a traditional crafting system, but we continued to feel that it was lacking. We had already decided that we would remove tedium from the game. The way crafting is traditionally represented in MMOs bears little resemblance to anything that you would call crafting in the real world; actually it is much more like manufacturing than anything else! It is tedious, repetitive and mostly lacking in any sort of personalized touches that would allow the player actually feel like a craftsman.

So, instead, we began to look at what appealed to people about crafting. Crafting should be an opportunity to create and to add something interesting into the game world. It should be an opportunity to make a name for yourself, earning not only fortune but also fame for what you have created! We took these ideas and created a new idea, that isnt really a traditional crafting system. Weve already explained our approach at length in other interviews with MMORPG.com, I believe.

So, I guess the answer is that we hope that this new idea (this non traditional crafting system) WILL appeal to hardcore crafters because it gives them what they have really always wanted but never gotten from other MMOs."

-Melissa Meyer

"The relationship between a pet and an owner is far less casual than what is currently seen in MMOs. A player can define a unique appearance for his pet, and customize its abilities in order to create a pet that truly suits his character. How the pet grows will depend on the time, attention and personal investment that the player invests in the pet."

-Melissa Meyer

"In Hero's Journey, you can make your character look like you want, change your mind later, and just have fun with it. To do this, we have created a very extensive character creation system. You have extremely detailed control over your face, the controls of which are derived from analysis of actual human faces. Imagine 30 or so controls just to specify your nose shape. No joke.

After that, you can spend hours (if you like) dressing your character. We have a massive inventory of options with amazingly levels of detail. For example, decide on a style of coat, specify its color, add a pattern, maybe some trim, then even choose the precise buttons you want on it. Or start piecing together a full suit of armor, with each chunk of metal being up to you. Due to the way our technology works, we will continually added new clothing elements to the possibilities on an on-going basis. Already, the options are staggering."

-David Whatley, June 03, 2005

"Perhaps the most notable thing about our characters is that, by and large, you have free reign to create your look as you see fit. In Hero's Journey, we have divorced the concept of what your character looks like from gameplay. The tradition in RPGs is that as your character advances, you get better and better armor. Reasonable, but the downside is that when you play just about any of these games, you can tell who is level five by just pointing out everyone who wears the exact same piece of armor. But how is that heroic? Xena ran around in essentially a miniskirt. Hardly effective armor, but she kicked ass anyway. And it's heroic."

-David Whatley, June 03, 2005

"We talk a great deal about environments that you can interact with, but perhaps its not clear that were taking this beyond the ability to pull down rockslides, fell trees and destroy bridges. The technology were developing already enables a Hero to scale a giant cliff, or climb up on a short wall. Beyond that, theyll be able to sit on tree stumps, balance precariously across rope bridges, or leap mighty chasms. These are things that Heroes should be able to do on adventures and they will be able to do them in Heros Journey."

-Melissa Meyer

______

Those are just a fraction of the quotes that really grab my attention. The fact that they'll have dozens and dozens (what is it, 40 now? more?) gamemasters constantly adding quests, areas, creatures, etcetera is amazing as well. Really, the game promises to let you look the way you want to look, play the way you want to play, be the hero of your own story, and rarely if ever run out of things to do. As a previous poster mentioned, it does almost sound too good to be true. Even so, I'd rather pin my hopes on a game that sounds too good to be true than a game that sounds completely believable. While Vanguard is being hailed by many, the features it appears to be based upon are features I've strongly disliked in other games. That's no fault of its creators, it's just not a game that's being targeted to my interests. Hero's Journey, on the other hand, seems like it's being built specifically for me. (I'm not being Punk'd, am I?)

For more quotes, check out The Unofficial Hero's Journey FAQ

Techleo · February 2006

I had totaly forgot the quest arc system. Actualy to be honest what you just said summed up alot of reasons why I got addicted to HJ. Great post!

angerr · February 2006

some nice info there Jenuviel, i indeed like the idea that quests will be all different with every character you make. i would most defiantly give this one a try when it launches...... but like i said in the vanguard version of this thread....i gatta go with what fits my playstyle and the obvious choice is vanguard for me.

someone said in this thread, that these are just words and you should give both games a equal shot.....and i couldn't agree more. i will defiantly be doing alot more HJ reading after this thread opened my eyes a bit. ::::06::

volune · February 2006

I get excited just thinking about role playing with a character that actually has some character!

If you are sick of being the same clone as everyone else that is in your class, all aspiring to get the exact same crap, this would be your game.

HJ-Rowell · February 2006

I have a theory about why information about Hero's Journey has been released slowly, as opposed to core dumping all that the game has to offer. Hero's Journey has many new, innovative ideas that are being brought to the MMORPG scene. Some revolutionary systems that will hopefully raise the bar of future MMORPGs. With this, going into all the details and mechanics before shipping the game out would give other game makers ideas.

I know I've played in several games in the past that "borrowed" other ideas from competitors; the new content added in a patch or an expansion pack. I don't think Simutronics wants to go into details to have the ideas taken, used in another game that's already out on the market.....or worse, have another company take the idea and release it in a pitiful form.

I know many people are hedging at the claims made by Simutronics. But they are a solid company that understands the player base, and really are taking all the steps to meet all their promises. Guess all I can say is...wait and see, it's going to be worth it.

It all comes down to having a fun game, playing it and loving it. I think Hero's Journey will be another that many people will stick with for years.

dunadurium · February 2006

hey all, i made a fairly informative post on this over in the Vanguard forums and would like to invite you to discuss it, or correct me where i may be wrong etc. It is quite a long read though, i will post what xDivianaDRx was replying too after this, but its too long to add lol:

Ok i have read that whole faq posted and a few of the Q&A on this site regarding HJ. Vanguard i have been following since the forming of Sigil was announced. The two games are not completely fair to compare at this point however because HJ has just a fraction of the information that Vanguard currently has made available.

Overall there seems to be a surprising amount of features that are similar in both games. The main differences i see is that HJ will have a much more structured storyline and quests for each player that will be unique in the way they use instances in creative ways (hopefully not at all in the way WOW used them), and yes the game seems to want to encourage RPing which is a great ideal. Vanguard on the other hand is sort of going the other way in providing the player with a much more free experience, so while the lore and backstory of the world is all still very well worked out (and in fact still provides opportunity for some great RPing), the storyline for each player is non-linear and open. I guess the way to elaborate is that Vanguard is shooting for a variety of ways that players can play the game, whereas HJ sort of has a story set out for you to follow along on (but yes, they aim for each story to be different).

I would like to edit into your post a bit though if thats ok, i will admit though right now that i know a lot more about Vanguard and so i guess i will naturally be biased in that direction:

Originally posted by xDivianaDRx

To Angerr, try checking this out: http://www.kmtdesigns.com/hjfaq/ and also MMORPG has pretty much all of the info on HJ, the links should be on the HJ website. IGN has quite a few too.

Hero's Journey can offer you a lot of those things you think it can't.

1. Crafting system - I don't know much about this at the moment. I don't know if or what it will be. The "heroic crafting" they are aiming for indeed sounds interesting, i guess we will have to see as you say. What Vanguard is doing though is making crafting a LOT more involved and actually making crafting a completely different sphere of its own, meaning that it will be equal to adventuring in the amount of content, so you would be able to play solely as a crafter is thats what you wanted. Crafting can be described as a "mini-game" all of its own, just like a round of combat would be. And somewhat similarly to what HJ describes i think, it will result in different outcomes each time you craft. It will require your attention and knowledge in order to craft quality items. Also, similar to HJ you will not be crafting hundreds of the same item. There will be "virtual items" that are not actual physical items and you will be making them for quests etc. When you actually do make a physical item you can bet that you'll be doing it for a reason- maybe as a work order for another player (as others will be able to make orders on items and then crafters can go and take orders that they are suited to fulfill). Diplomacy BTW will also be a complete separate sphere.
2. Diplomacy- I don't know about owning cities, but there will be factions and such, and that will make an impact on the HISTORY of the game, meaning there will be new players in years possibly hearing about -you-. Ok i read this too but here is my problem with this: after the first few hundreds of these types of quests (unless only a handful of individuals experience them, but then you cant really even list it as a feature) is what you do really going to matter? I mean this may have worked with MUDs back in the day when there were only a few hundred players in a world and when you became a "wizard", you could change the world etc. but im not completely sold that this is even possible in modern MMOs, if they pull it off though it could be good. In Vanguards case they are making Diplomacy a whole different sphere as stated above, making it a second gameplay option apart from adventuring. You will influence the hand of kings and likewise the decisions of the Thugs guild. You will need to engage in parlay which requires you to use your words wisely and will there for grant you many things such as access to places you would not normally be able to go (in the throne room of new Taragon for instance or allowed in to see the leader of the thugs etc) Similarly, you will not always need to fight but instead you'll be able to talk your way out of an encounter or if your really skilled maybe even deeper into the camp of some mobs, getting your party in without fighting etc. It will no doubt add a whole new dynamic to quests. Oh and yeah when there will be player built towns and cities, diplomats will be required to run them and to perform communications between NPC cities for example. A large city will be a diplomats equivalent of a dungeon. So now cities will actually have a greater purpose other than to sell your stuff and train.
3. Owning homes, stores, etc.- I DO know players will have homes (and possibly be able to bring others in) and there will be multiple types of mounts. I don't know about stores and that kind of stuff. The thing i don't like about HJ houses and "communities" as they call them is that they will be instanced. Thats a big NO NO in my book. That way all the houses end up feeling pointless, they do however hint at some interesting content for communities to do-sorta like player run cities and towns in Vanguard too. In Vanguard you will be building (through the crafting sphere and high lev crafters no doubt) houses and buildings of many many types and styles. There will also be the option to hire NPC guard and merchants and maybe NPC diplomats of some sorts also as well as NPCs fr crafters. Indeed player run towns will "function" just as well as their NPC counterparts. There are also hints that those NPC guards are needed also there because mobs from the wild may not like seeing a budding player community on their doorsteps, and may invade. Also there is allotted space planed so you can't just have a townwhereever you want, but this then creates a sort of interesting land struggle in PvP servers. Also you will be able to give specific consent to players who are allowed to enter your home or building, these permissions come on a few levels i belive(some people may only go in while you are online for example while others have access all the time[this is just a fictitious example of how it could work]).
4. Oversea travel- There are two types of ships in the game, they're not floating on land! In Vanguard there will be player crafted ships and boats ranging from the simple and easy to acquire shore hugger/ fishing boat all the way up to large scale battle ships, with ship to ship battle planned and yes there will be pirates that attack you, wtaer mobs that attack you and many many interesting pieces of content on islands and smaller land masses. There will be islands that can hold player towns and others that will hide huge dungeons on their tropical shores. One of the 3 starting continents is actually an archipelago so ships and boats will be very valuable there for exploration. There are also druid and other class spells that will affect boat speeds etc. so in PvP ship combat could get extremely tactical, and more than likely in PvE too.
5. Vast world- The world of HJ will be updated on a daily basis, providing new content continually by the "Army of GMs" I can't say this is larger than any game, but it will definitely be fun. Ok here i just have a question/concern- How is the content going to remain at a high level of quality if there are all these GMs adding content daily and wont the world get extremely large/ spread out if they are indeed adding actual landmass(which s suggested from what you state this under)? By content are you referring to events or actual game "content"? I see this being hard to orchestrate f there is an "army" of GM all just stuffing in content. will the content all still fit together? Wont it get trivial if they are just adding the same types of things etc.
6. Hard/Easy- I don't know what the difficulty is, but I'm pretty sure if you want to go do difficult things, you can. (Let me tell you, I'm gonna be soloing) Yes in Vanguard i see a more "hardcore" game as opposed to HJ where they are trying to make it so low levels can play with higher levs etc and limited insta ports to instances etc. Travel time, for instance, will be quite high in Vanguard and they will try to make it fun through different mechanics. Also grouping will be the most viable way to play with solo and raid content also there just not as strong.
7. Community- Again, I don't know (anything!) but if HJ is anything like Simu's other games, it will be immersive, good RP, and an awesome community. There will be conflicts, and friendships, festivals (which happen to be incredibly fun!) and other community based things. Here i am actually getting more and more concerned about Vanguard to tell everyone the truth, and heres why. The early community up until a few moths ago was amazing and there were some truly insightful and mature personalities on their boards. Sadly in the last few months i have seen an influx of kiddies on their forums and their members have more than doubled from 20 000+ to 50 000 users. Now i hardly ever see some of the old members posting however there are growing posts of chuck norris jokes and extreme cases of flaming. I dunno though, maybe all those old guys are now just too fused to their screens playing beta to post Maybe thats what MMO munk was really referring too, but he wont tell us cus he wont break his NDA...or will he?
8. Diversity- What screenshots haven't you been looking at! HJ has all kinds of different places, ranging from deserts, to high caverns with lava, to pretty forest areas, to dark dungeons, and spooky graveyards. Yeah both games are extremely nice to look at but i guess with diversity he was also referring to it affecting gameplay.
9. Pirating- This is something I don't know about for sure, I don't know if there will be ownership of boats, although you can definitely look like, and roleplay a pirate if you want to. In vanguard diplomats will also be very item centric meaning they will have their very own equipment and the like and clothes too. So jusytpicture what type of diplomat items a shady thug type player may have..interesting possibilities, or a noble bureaucrat may have.
10. Become a diplomat- Your faction can rule over the Triumvirate, which governs the three factions. If your faction is in control, you and all of your faction members get benefits. I'm not sure but I think there's deeper player control than that. Here is another area where the two games seem to have similar ideas. Vanguard will have many factions however and faction will really play a much larger role in Diplomacy and parlay options than the other spheres. As pointed out above also, it will influence the direction that cities take. In addition crafters will also influence the success of cities in that for a quest they may get a work order for a specific amount of spears and if the quality of those spears are high enough then the city's guards may be using those to protect the city etc.
11. Caravans- There are the Wanderers, who of course, wander. One thing you might want to consider is: Will it be THAT fun to have to cross large amounts of land? There's a huge debate on the HJ forums about instant travel, and I disagree with it being instant, but I don't think it should take too long either. Well in Vanguard they are trying to make the actual traveling part of the challenge-part of the content. Instead of just auto running or ridding straight though an area while you go and make lunch is not a viable option. There will be decisions to be made and encounters to avoid, and ambushes to overcome. Read up on the mechanics they will use to make travel fun if you like, although they are not releasing a lot of it at this time. There will be no form of large distance teleports however but boats, mounts, and flying mounts all are there to get you around at a progressively good speed while still not completely overpassing essential content. expanding on what MMO Munk said- Caravans will be formed by a group of people and when you join on you will be able to log off while the thing still moves forward, so say you want to stay with your guild while it travels somewhere, but you have to log off? not a problem anymore.
12. Relationship with community- Simu is ALL about roleplay, and although they're not gonna force anyone, it will be VERY encouraged. (Don't forget the GM interaction, we're not just there to BUILD, we're gonna be in the background doing cool things, changing stuff around you while you play, and bringing you cool events like town invasions) Besides that there will be services that players will need from other players. Like getting their boxes opened by rogues, or perhaps getting their armor upgraded by someone who knows how. Ok i have a few comments here too. first of all i don't know how they will implement it completely apart from what ive read but it seems that the vast majority of the current generation of MMO players don't even know what RPing means let alone want to pursue it as the way they will play a game. Its a say fact but its true, so no matter how much it encouraged, most people are still going to only care about the DPS on their sword or that next uber item they want. This in turn will ruin the experience of those that do want to RP, so i would hope you have RPing servers specifically for those that want to RP. This is what Vanguard is doing and their great lore and backstory certainly supports RPing.

Secondly, there was just a discussion about this in the Vanguard forums about the extent that devs should change the existing world and how it might alienate the community who have leveled through that content already. And Brad did comfort us by saying that thay will not be changing the content that people liked and the stuff that worked but after mudflation kicks in they will need to be "freshening up" some of the areas in terms of the difficulty of mobs and the drops etc. i Hope HJ also is careful about this aspect so the game players come to love does not completely change within a year of release by GMs "changing stuff around".

Interdependence in Vanguard ill be key. All the sphere will be relying and working together as well as the different classes in each sphere. Many great achievements in vanguard will require the cooperation of many different types of players over the broad range that is offered in the game. This will really be beautiful to see IMHO- a crafter relying on a group to get down into the depths of a dangerous dungeon to a great forge (mount doom from LOTR anyone?) for example and while he is crafting a legendary item with great care, the group around him maybe fighting off dragon minions that are trying desperately to get to the crafter and protect the forge of their master, while a couple of high lev diplomats are parlaying in the corner with a Dark Wizard of destruction and trying to hold off his rage. Just an example but you can see how complex the systems can get when woven together like this, and the immense amount of situations that can be made by designers by using the three sphere together like this.
13. Graphics- The screenshots for HJ don't compare to the real thing. At all.. I have a lower end graphics card at the moment, (upgrading very soon) and the game looks GORGEOUS to me. But you can't really choose a game just on looks. You could play the prettiest game ever, and it could still suck. I agree with your last sentence here and would also like to say that Vanguard is also the same way in that the screen shots dont do it justice. They are still even yet to implement some lighting features that the game will have.
14. More experienced team- I don't think you can say they are more experienced, some of the GMs currently working on HJ have been working for Simu for YEARS. (I'm guessing anywhere from 5-10) and Simu is VERY experienced in the game industry. They've been making MMOs for 20 YEARS. Text based, yes, but different? Not so much, just add graphics. There's still a lot of coding to do. Oh and did I mention how easy and fun the world building tools are? I don't know if he was referring to HJ dev team specifically but i agree here with you that HJ's team is very experienced, and even Brad and co are designing off of MUD's ultimately. The one thing i will say in favor of Sigil is that there are some obvious differences in graphical MMOs and MUDs. You ask if they are really different and...well...to be honest i think they sorta are in some key things. Of course they share a lot also, but i guess the fact that Sigil has both the experience of MMORPGs and they know MUDs very well give them knowledge of both which will really come in handy. Ultimately they first brought a MUD into 3D so i guess they too know damn well what they are doing.
15. Enhanced fighting- I am assuming you haven't watched the HJ E3 video. The combat is SO interactive! Think solo if you want, or group if you like that. Spell casters will not only cast spells, but choose where it is cast and how to cast it. (think size or shape) also there are combos for those who like groups. The E3 video shows the character jumping off the party members back to be able to hit the creature in the head! Well i have to say that i am liking the ideas HJ has here in terms of combat. I especially liked how you will be able to "draw" in the line you want your wall of fire to take for example. I also think their ideas on interactivity with the environment will really make you feel like your in the world. A lot of people wanted climbing (scaling walls etc) in Vanguard too and they said that they would consider it but ultimately it is not in(or not in yet). HJ seems like it will have climbing and more. Overall strategy and options in combat wise though i think Vanguard has an amazing amount of options and things you'll need to be considering in combat. It will be strategy and thinking paramount over button mashing and auto attacking. Each class will have a completely different feel and way to play. So working together in a group will really be interesting as people will have completely different types of abilities and attacks etc. I really want to but i really should not start explaining the combat system as this post is already getting rather lengthy. Suffice to say that you should check up on it because it will be extremely in depth and interactive. I still really really like some of those HJ ideas though, i think thse types of "targeted" spells may be a great addition to MMOs down the read so in this regard HJ may evolve the genre profoundly. I really think that if both games traded some of their combat ideas then both games would have incredible systems (i still really like Vanguards the way it is though).

Just to make sure you understand, I don't know some things because I just get my information from the MMORPG news. And let me tell you, Brodbane's faq has WAAAAAAAAY more information than even I do. (I've read everything, just can't remember it all. Too much info)

Now let me go into some of the things I personally like about HJ.

The quest system is way more fun than just leveling. Sure you can sit around hunting all day, but come on! Wouldn't you rather do quests?(well i guess not all people view this in the same way, but yeah the quest and whole "journey" system looks promising in HJ, but im still not convinced they need Instances for a lot of quests) In Vanguard its more about the variety of things to do so the game appeals to many different playstyles. These playstyles will all be able to work together though as stated above. Oh and no instanced areas at all. Each character you make will have a completely different story than any other. They'll all have different quests. And you won't have to always be looking for the quests, sometimes they'll come find you. Also the skill system looks particularly interesting to me. From what I understand you gain Hero Points and you can distribute those into your different skills.. (Which are determined by class, and of course you get a main class and a sub class..) Oh and no changing them once you pick em! While Vanguard does not allow for a sub class, the classes that are going into the game are some of the most creative and diverse features i've seen in a game to date. I mean each one will literally play completely different to each other. The balance however is still there on a base level so you will not have to feel gimped if your class is not labeled as the best by powergamers. I read that in HJ they too are going in favor of diversity but are not too concerned about balance, which IMO is quite risky to the health of the game if in the future only one or two classes are deemed the best...just a thought.
Individuality. We all want that. Well in HJ you can pick your face, your hair color and style, (in detail, think nose, eye color, etc.), then pick your clothes, the color of your clothes, and any accessories or designs on the clothes and the colors for those. That means that nobody will ever look exactly alike. Unless it's on purpose. This is how a recent IGN review described character creation in Vanguard:

"Speaking of regions, it looks like you'll have a wide variety of characters to choose from and customize. All the usual high-fantasy creatures are in attendance; from half-elves to halflings to human-animal hybrids, Vanguard looks like it will have something for everyone. And facial customization is by far the most detailed I've seen in an MMO yet. Imagine all the appearance options in, say, City of Heroes, honed in on just one area of the body. Only The Sims 2 comes close. And there's also a huge spectrum of skin tones and eye colors. Want to look pale and sickly, or beefy and tanned? Or pale and beefy? Now you can, and you can look old or young as well. Sigil seems to understand that, in a social online environment, distinctive appearances are important. It's possible that no two Vanguard avatars will look alike."

which ones better? i guess we will have to wait and see, but Sigil too is very concerned about this too and im confident they will make a great system.
Armor strength isn't BASED on the way the clothes look. Sure it sounds more unreal, but this is a fantasy game. Anyway, don't you wanna be a pirate?(not sure i understand this correctly...so say a piece of cloth shirt may have the stats of a steel breastplate? That does not not sound very realistic at all. I don't see why this is even necessary though? is it for the sake of looking a specific way you want? but isnt part of that also playing that way? or do you want to play as a mage but look like a warrior? doesn't make sense to me, sorry some explanation may help)

PVP! I love good pvp. You can set a flag so you can't be attacked, or if you wanna spar with buddies, you can put it to standard. And if you leave it on standard and someone comes and kills you, well their status is set to Overt.. Then they'll be the ones watching their back. sounds like a reasonable compromise. In Vanguard there will be PvP servers and they are planning on diversity in this too in that they will experiment with many variations, so it is entirely possible to see something similar from a Vanguard server. Vanguard is all about playing the way you want.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

Also think of the possibility that there will be single -one time only, completed by one group only- kind of quests, that will change Elanthia permanently, the names of whoever completed that quest will go down in history and every other gamer will hear of them. What a way to be a hero. Sigil also talked about this type of questing a while ago and have advancing storylines with their live team. I explained the downfalls of a system like this though. This type of content will only really be experienced by a handful of players or if not then it really becomes trivial in that your achievements don't really matter in the grand scheme of things.
One last thing, Simu has a LOT of experience with game economy, and they will most likely have the most stable economy out of any other mmorpg out there. Lol that is a pretty big thing to claim but we will see. So far i have extreme faith in brad and his philosophy on game economies, and really think that it will be Vanguard with an extremely stable economy for years to come, the last part being the real important part. Lol but i guess our arguments are based on what we have both read and on complete speculation so i guess ill keep reading info until i feel i have read most then i will make a final decision. So far what i have read still makes me highly in favor of Sigil knowing their game economy better than any company i have ever seen.

That's just cracking the ice. Go read the stuff about it here, or check out the faq. They're both really good sources of information. Yeah there is a ton of Vanguard info available that goes into a plethora of features that there is just not enough space to list. In the end both games will no doubt be successful and targeted for a slightly different audience(although right now they actually appear to be targeted for surprisingly similar players) The fact that Vanguard comes out earlier though may give it an unfair advantage, as i don't see why someone waiting for HJ (having similar tastes) would not try Vanguard while they wait.

I will continue reading HJ infoz and getting educated if you will likewise go through the silkyvenom FAQ (as slow as it may be lol) then we can continue the debate in a more precise fashion.

~Dunadurium

dunadurium · February 2006

Originally posted by MMO_Munk

Originally posted by EliasThorne
Hi all,

I'm deliberately cross posting this here and in the Hero's Journey forum to get a good idea of the pro's and con's of each game and I can think of no better (or maybe quicker!) way to get to the heart of each game than to put the question to you guys in these forums.
I know there are fan boi's in each forums and this should if all goes well be very informative, if it doesn't go well then I apologise for baiting trolls
I would love to have had reason to post in more forums, but there really doesn't seem to be much out there in the short to mid term!
Thank you all,
Elias...

*Gets Baited from his regular trolling schedule*

Well, BOTH games have great concepts and BOTH have a great dev team in my opinion. The only major difference i can think of off the top of my head is, Vanguard will be more advertised, seeing as it is a Microsoft backed MMO. I also have more faith in the Vanguard Dev team to provide me with a game I know I will like. Its just so hard to say, cause both games have GREAT Potential, i was just sold on Vanguards amount of races, classes, and depth of detail the Dev team is going into. IGN says their is the most character customization in Vanguard than they had ever seen in any other MMO to date. I follow Vanguard Very Closesly and only OverLooked Heros Journey for a few weeks.
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I mean Vanguard just has things in it HEroes Journey cant offer me, such as:

1. Great Remade non bottable Crafting System.
2. Diplomacy between PLAYER OWNED Cities.
3. Ability to Purchase a Home, Store, Dock, Cart, Horse Ect.
4. OverSeas Travel and Adventure on the High seas.
5. Vast world, one of the largest square miles in game to date.
6. The Game is ment to be HARD, non newbiefied is what Really SOLD me on this.
7. GREAT Community, I've noticed so far, the Vanguard community reminds me of old school EverQuest 1, Everyone is Very helpful. Lots of sites help adverstise this game while its in developement, such as www.silkyvenom.com
8. A Diverse game filled from Mountain ranges, to rolling fields of green, to desert sands, to high seas adventure.
9. Ability to become a pirate on the High Seas, Ransoming other people boats, for your greed =p.
10. Become a Diplomat for your Player owned City.
11. Ability to form Caravans while moving from city to city, YES THE GAME IS THAT BIG.
12. The need for a strong relation to the community, Nearly forced grouping with very little solo content makes this a player friendly game, makes you feel like your actually in the game, and not playing, a console in the dark no windowed room alone. Encouraged player interaction.
13. The Graphics, Although not TOP NOTCH still very nice to look at, I just hope their is more armor diversity, in not just shapes, but color also. But I have hopes Vanguards Dev team will implement this far before Heroes Journey.
14. This is a MORE experianced Dev Team, they created the POWERHOUSE OF MMO'S Everquest 1. They know what works and what doesnt now.
15. Enhanced fighting (combat) system.
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CRAFTING RESOURCES
Most items are only combinable with similar resources. Each raw resource you harvest has two classifications: Tier and Type.

TIERS
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TYPES
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Both must match up to assemble an item, and only the appropriate Tier can be used in the matching Tier recipe. All this information is available by examining the ore itself.

See this is why I like these Dev's as an Example right here, This is to STOP BOTTERS, (Cheaters) from just being afk running around everywhere harvesting, like in EverQuest 2, World of Warcraft and various other games.
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Still not sold huh? DIPLOMACY

NPCs have a certain amount of text they can tell you. It can be different types of information like general information about the lore of a certain place, or it can be a special quest that they have for you. If you win a parley session without raising this bar to the max you know there is some information the NPC isn't telling you. There might be "hidden" information on the NPC.

Things like THIS Set this game to a higher mark for me and other gamers ALIKE.
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Thats about all I can tell you about this game. Theres ALOT TO IT, more than just a few simple forum posts can tell you. Good luck to you sir, I Hope you choose wisely.

VANGUARD FOR THE WIN[/size] FOLLOW THIS LINK

[strike]value[/strike][strike]I PICKED A NEW AVATAR TODAY! LET THIS BE A BIG AMERICAN PARTY TIME![/strike]

thats what he was originally replying to.

Also if anyone else wants to look into it there is a huge Vanguard FAQ right here( though it is literally enormous containing a few hundred pages, so it is a long read):

http://www.silkyvenom.com/pages/faq.php Enjoy

~Dunadurium

xDivianaDRx · February 2006

I can't believe I just read all that.. OR that you typed it.

I'll try to reply later but I just woke up a few hours ago.

Good arguments, however I wasn't trying to really argue, I was just pointing out that he was very misinformed towards HJ.

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Hero's Journey or Vanguard?

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