Well, if they can have chess video games with smart AI then an MMO with smart AI should be no problem at all.
Because, as we all know, there is little difference between chess video games and MMOs.
Some one on a message board wants it to happen so obviously it can happen.
Technological limitations? Bah! We have the power of wishing.
Please by all means list even one technical limitation for improving the AI in MMOs.
It all comes down to server side.
Dumb AI is less intense on the server resources.
I'll explain ( I am making an MMO)
Everything and you can see and others can see at the same time as to be sent down from the server. (no... this does not mean environment stuff... unless maybe it's a windmill moving. Then the windmill animation has to sync with the server, so you and everyone else can see the windmill moving at the same time. When you login... there are hundreds of sync checks.. it's crazy.)
When making an online game, you can't just simply make one attack animation for your character. You also have to program it so that the server sends down that animation to other clients so they can see your animation playing. That's how multiplayer games work.
With that, onto AI.
The server has to update any and all clients that are rendering that one mob. The server tells your client where the mob is at, how it looks, what animation to play, everything. Think of it this way, what ever you see in single player, has to be done twice for multiplayer. It's crazy.. I know.
But why is the AI soooo retarded? It's just how it has to be done. It's programmed to do a lot of things. And each one of those things HAS to be sent down from the server and sync'd with everyone else's client that is attacking that mob or even more resource intense, a group of mobs. This makes the AI look very.. glitchy and like it's paused at times. In single player, everything is done local, so it's an ass ton faster. In my game, when I am running around by myself and with no testers on, the AI works very very smooth. Get a couple of players on that mob, it turns into a zombie that has no idea what to do at times. This is obviously my servers hardware.. but where do you draw the line with hardware? You'll always need more. Most company's find a nice medium that it can handle and leave it alone. This is the SOLE purpose of a "Stress Test". Bandwidth is not cheap either. Even more so for someone like me, who is making an mmo by himself with no money lmao.
The bottom line, there are way to many factors that can ruin an mmo. Since everything has to sync, there has to be a middle ground that will work for people that live 10 miles from the server and someone that lives 5,000 miles from the server. One day, mmo combat and mmo Ai will looks just as good as single player. But until everyone has 300mb down, fast computer, and server hardware is retarded powerful, this is just what you get.
The main thing that makes the AI look really nice and makes you think it's actually worth a damn, is a thing called Nav Mesh.
AI Pathfinding is no easy feat to program. Most MMO's just have them follow the target, when you get a certain distance away from the ray cast, and then the mob disengages and runs away. The mob may run away and run into a tree, wall, bush, rock, fence, everything else lmao.
Nav Mesh is when the server knows the position of EVERY SINGLE THING in the server AT ALL TIMES. This is then sent to the AI, so it knows where you are and objects in the world. This beats the shit out of the server. Imagine that multiplied by how many clients are in that area.
I know this may seem like a wall of text... and I am terrible at explaining things too.
MMO AI is just the way it is. Just like MMO Combat. Everything has to sync. Everything has to be calc right there on the spot.
Another trick to making AI look nice, are animations. I have seen some animations start from a idle combat position then to a full attack swing. This is horrible. Any game engine can fill in the blanks for animations. Like jumping animation. All I did was make a "pose" of the character jumping in mid air, the engine filled in the gaps and it looks like I made this long jump animation lol. Attacks are the same way. To make a mob look better, I make the mid attack pose, and the engine does the rest. It comes out as a very nice smooth animation. It helps 1000x with making the AI seem better.
Every journey starts with the first step. Sitting at home in couch wont get you anywhere. And thats just what most MMOs have been doing for past 15 years.
I didnt even mention its possible to do in entirety atm, but that doesnt mean it cant be improved upon. Oh yeah, it woulod take a lot of hard work, so what. Lot of things take a lot of hard work.
Yes, you can. But why bother?
Games are already challenging. So what if the NPCs act a bit wooden. You are asking for challenges, not for them to pass a turing test.
why, bother with anything, caves server a purpose, and walking is perfectly good way of travelling and electricity is just convenience.
Because electricity makes a HUGE difference, and better AI does not?
How would you know, how many games with smart AI have you played?
I can tell you right off the bat that chess is pretty awesome against smart AI and pretty bad against dumb AI.
Blizz already tried smart AI ... got QQ a lot, and dropped it.
hmm ... actually chess is pretty dumb AI, just alpha-beta pruning will beat 99.9999% of the population. Only Kasporov needs special treatment.
This has probably allready been said, TLDR, sorry if that is the case
But it is dumb by design, there is no problem constructing an AI that will beat a human player 100% of the time.
And not by being overpowered or have insane amounts of HP, and/or not have access to skills the human do not.
It is just that we are meant to win, it is the sole purpose of any game, we are the heroes!
Constructing a game were we can not win, or just a tiny fraction of the most uber players have a chance to win is incredibly bad business.
But not hard!
Adaptive AI though, not so easy, to give each player a challenge, depending on their skill set, that is another story altogether.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Originally posted by Jerek_
I wonder if you honestly even believe what you type, or if you live in a made up world of facts. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now, some may say that my point here is not true, that games today are desirable. But let me point out that the scaling system I just described isn't much different than what you have in an instance like modern games use. They are designed and tailored to a player group just as much. And they are just as much a mockery to advancement and "earning".
Just have a leaderboard like D3 .. problem solved.
Well, if they can have chess video games with smart AI then an MMO with smart AI should be no problem at all.
Because, as we all know, there is little difference between chess video games and MMOs.
Some one on a message board wants it to happen so obviously it can happen.
Technological limitations? Bah! We have the power of wishing.
Please by all means list even one technical limitation for improving the AI in MMOs.
It all comes down to server side.
Dumb AI is less intense on the server resources.
I'll explain ( I am making an MMO)
Everything and you can see and others can see at the same time as to be sent down from the server. (no... this does not mean environment stuff... unless maybe it's a windmill moving. Then the windmill animation has to sync with the server, so you and everyone else can see the windmill moving at the same time. When you login... there are hundreds of sync checks.. it's crazy.)
When making an online game, you can't just simply make one attack animation for your character. You also have to program it so that the server sends down that animation to other clients so they can see your animation playing. That's how multiplayer games work.
With that, onto AI.
The server has to update any and all clients that are rendering that one mob. The server tells your client where the mob is at, how it looks, what animation to play, everything. Think of it this way, what ever you see in single player, has to be done twice for multiplayer. It's crazy.. I know.
But why is the AI soooo retarded? It's just how it has to be done. It's programmed to do a lot of things. And each one of those things HAS to be sent down from the server and sync'd with everyone else's client that is attacking that mob or even more resource intense, a group of mobs. This makes the AI look very.. glitchy and like it's paused at times. In single player, everything is done local, so it's an ass ton faster. In my game, when I am running around by myself and with no testers on, the AI works very very smooth. Get a couple of players on that mob, it turns into a zombie that has no idea what to do at times. This is obviously my servers hardware.. but where do you draw the line with hardware? You'll always need more. Most company's find a nice medium that it can handle and leave it alone. This is the SOLE purpose of a "Stress Test". Bandwidth is not cheap either. Even more so for someone like me, who is making an mmo by himself with no money lmao.
The bottom line, there are way to many factors that can ruin an mmo. Since everything has to sync, there has to be a middle ground that will work for people that live 10 miles from the server and someone that lives 5,000 miles from the server. One day, mmo combat and mmo Ai will looks just as good as single player. But until everyone has 300mb down, fast computer, and server hardware is retarded powerful, this is just what you get.
The main thing that makes the AI look really nice and makes you think it's actually worth a damn, is a thing called Nav Mesh.
AI Pathfinding is no easy feat to program. Most MMO's just have them follow the target, when you get a certain distance away from the ray cast, and then the mob disengages and runs away. The mob may run away and run into a tree, wall, bush, rock, fence, everything else lmao.
Nav Mesh is when the server knows the position of EVERY SINGLE THING in the server AT ALL TIMES. This is then sent to the AI, so it knows where you are and objects in the world. This beats the shit out of the server. Imagine that multiplied by how many clients are in that area.
I know this may seem like a wall of text... and I am terrible at explaining things too.
MMO AI is just the way it is. Just like MMO Combat. Everything has to sync. Everything has to be calc right there on the spot.
Another trick to making AI look nice, are animations. I have seen some animations start from a idle combat position then to a full attack swing. This is horrible. Any game engine can fill in the blanks for animations. Like jumping animation. All I did was make a "pose" of the character jumping in mid air, the engine filled in the gaps and it looks like I made this long jump animation lol. Attacks are the same way. To make a mob look better, I make the mid attack pose, and the engine does the rest. It comes out as a very nice smooth animation. It helps 1000x with making the AI seem better.
Well, if they can have chess video games with smart AI then an MMO with smart AI should be no problem at all.
Because, as we all know, there is little difference between chess video games and MMOs.
Some one on a message board wants it to happen so obviously it can happen.
Technological limitations? Bah! We have the power of wishing.
Please by all means list even one technical limitation for improving the AI in MMOs.
It all comes down to server side.
Dumb AI is less intense on the server resources.
I'll explain ( I am making an MMO)
Everything and you can see and others can see at the same time as to be sent down from the server. (no... this does not mean environment stuff... unless maybe it's a windmill moving. Then the windmill animation has to sync with the server, so you and everyone else can see the windmill moving at the same time. When you login... there are hundreds of sync checks.. it's crazy.)
When making an online game, you can't just simply make one attack animation for your character. You also have to program it so that the server sends down that animation to other clients so they can see your animation playing. That's how multiplayer games work.
With that, onto AI.
The server has to update any and all clients that are rendering that one mob. The server tells your client where the mob is at, how it looks, what animation to play, everything. Think of it this way, what ever you see in single player, has to be done twice for multiplayer. It's crazy.. I know.
But why is the AI soooo retarded? It's just how it has to be done. It's programmed to do a lot of things. And each one of those things HAS to be sent down from the server and sync'd with everyone else's client that is attacking that mob or even more resource intense, a group of mobs. This makes the AI look very.. glitchy and like it's paused at times. In single player, everything is done local, so it's an ass ton faster. In my game, when I am running around by myself and with no testers on, the AI works very very smooth. Get a couple of players on that mob, it turns into a zombie that has no idea what to do at times. This is obviously my servers hardware.. but where do you draw the line with hardware? You'll always need more. Most company's find a nice medium that it can handle and leave it alone. This is the SOLE purpose of a "Stress Test". Bandwidth is not cheap either. Even more so for someone like me, who is making an mmo by himself with no money lmao.
The bottom line, there are way to many factors that can ruin an mmo. Since everything has to sync, there has to be a middle ground that will work for people that live 10 miles from the server and someone that lives 5,000 miles from the server. One day, mmo combat and mmo Ai will looks just as good as single player. But until everyone has 300mb down, fast computer, and server hardware is retarded powerful, this is just what you get.
The main thing that makes the AI look really nice and makes you think it's actually worth a damn, is a thing called Nav Mesh.
AI Pathfinding is no easy feat to program. Most MMO's just have them follow the target, when you get a certain distance away from the ray cast, and then the mob disengages and runs away. The mob may run away and run into a tree, wall, bush, rock, fence, everything else lmao.
Nav Mesh is when the server knows the position of EVERY SINGLE THING in the server AT ALL TIMES. This is then sent to the AI, so it knows where you are and objects in the world. This beats the shit out of the server. Imagine that multiplied by how many clients are in that area.
I know this may seem like a wall of text... and I am terrible at explaining things too.
MMO AI is just the way it is. Just like MMO Combat. Everything has to sync. Everything has to be calc right there on the spot.
Another trick to making AI look nice, are animations. I have seen some animations start from a idle combat position then to a full attack swing. This is horrible. Any game engine can fill in the blanks for animations. Like jumping animation. All I did was make a "pose" of the character jumping in mid air, the engine filled in the gaps and it looks like I made this long jump animation lol. Attacks are the same way. To make a mob look better, I make the mid attack pose, and the engine does the rest. It comes out as a very nice smooth animation. It helps 1000x with making the AI seem better.
Everquest and all the early MMOs had to deal with everything you just stated 15 years ago on 486 and pentium machines with 14.4 or 56k modems and the AI has not changed in any major relevant way since.
Improving the AI for MMOs is not a technical limitation.
"You CAN'T buy ships for RL money." - MaxBacon
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
How would sliders work in a persistent world? ... So we are clear i'm talking about traditional MMO's
In CoH it was an NPC you walked up to, which affected the level and quantity of the mobs you faced in missions.
A slider or NPC aren't even required though. You can achieve the same effect purely through rewards balancing. The typical failure of the genre is that you let players fight some mob ~5 levels above you, and it takes 100% longer than normal (because of HP scaling) and is very difficult, but only provides 30% more reward (when really it should be more like 130%, so that you advance faster by fighting tough opponents, rather than slower.) The same sort of thing would be applied to item drops for that mob.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Every journey starts with the first step. Sitting at home in couch wont get you anywhere. And thats just what most MMOs have been doing for past 15 years.
I didnt even mention its possible to do in entirety atm, but that doesnt mean it cant be improved upon. Oh yeah, it woulod take a lot of hard work, so what. Lot of things take a lot of hard work.
Yes, you can. But why bother?
Games are already challenging. So what if the NPCs act a bit wooden. You are asking for challenges, not for them to pass a turing test.
why, bother with anything, caves server a purpose, and walking is perfectly good way of travelling and electricity is just convenience.
Because electricity makes a HUGE difference, and better AI does not?
How would you know, how many games with smart AI have you played?
I can tell you right off the bat that chess is pretty awesome against smart AI and pretty bad against dumb AI.
Blizz already tried smart AI ... got QQ a lot, and dropped it.
hmm ... actually chess is pretty dumb AI, just alpha-beta pruning will beat 99.9999% of the population. Only Kasporov needs special treatment.
Sorry, at this point ill just say go read the discussion again, its like deja vu.
Sounds like more of a engine limitation then anything else. Playing Entropian Universe can handle a dozen players with 100 or so mobs all moving and interacting just fine while they hunt them. in fact I have seen upwards of 500+ mobs in one spot and still people are group killing and such. So there is less a technical problem when using the right engine.
Well, if they can have chess video games with smart AI then an MMO with smart AI should be no problem at all.
Because, as we all know, there is little difference between chess video games and MMOs.
Some one on a message board wants it to happen so obviously it can happen.
Technological limitations? Bah! We have the power of wishing.
Please by all means list even one technical limitation for improving the AI in MMOs.
It all comes down to server side.
Dumb AI is less intense on the server resources.
I'll explain ( I am making an MMO)
Everything and you can see and others can see at the same time as to be sent down from the server. (no... this does not mean environment stuff... unless maybe it's a windmill moving. Then the windmill animation has to sync with the server, so you and everyone else can see the windmill moving at the same time. When you login... there are hundreds of sync checks.. it's crazy.)
When making an online game, you can't just simply make one attack animation for your character. You also have to program it so that the server sends down that animation to other clients so they can see your animation playing. That's how multiplayer games work.
With that, onto AI.
The server has to update any and all clients that are rendering that one mob. The server tells your client where the mob is at, how it looks, what animation to play, everything. Think of it this way, what ever you see in single player, has to be done twice for multiplayer. It's crazy.. I know.
But why is the AI soooo retarded? It's just how it has to be done. It's programmed to do a lot of things. And each one of those things HAS to be sent down from the server and sync'd with everyone else's client that is attacking that mob or even more resource intense, a group of mobs. This makes the AI look very.. glitchy and like it's paused at times. In single player, everything is done local, so it's an ass ton faster. In my game, when I am running around by myself and with no testers on, the AI works very very smooth. Get a couple of players on that mob, it turns into a zombie that has no idea what to do at times. This is obviously my servers hardware.. but where do you draw the line with hardware? You'll always need more. Most company's find a nice medium that it can handle and leave it alone. This is the SOLE purpose of a "Stress Test". Bandwidth is not cheap either. Even more so for someone like me, who is making an mmo by himself with no money lmao.
The bottom line, there are way to many factors that can ruin an mmo. Since everything has to sync, there has to be a middle ground that will work for people that live 10 miles from the server and someone that lives 5,000 miles from the server. One day, mmo combat and mmo Ai will looks just as good as single player. But until everyone has 300mb down, fast computer, and server hardware is retarded powerful, this is just what you get.
The main thing that makes the AI look really nice and makes you think it's actually worth a damn, is a thing called Nav Mesh.
AI Pathfinding is no easy feat to program. Most MMO's just have them follow the target, when you get a certain distance away from the ray cast, and then the mob disengages and runs away. The mob may run away and run into a tree, wall, bush, rock, fence, everything else lmao.
Nav Mesh is when the server knows the position of EVERY SINGLE THING in the server AT ALL TIMES. This is then sent to the AI, so it knows where you are and objects in the world. This beats the shit out of the server. Imagine that multiplied by how many clients are in that area.
I know this may seem like a wall of text... and I am terrible at explaining things too.
MMO AI is just the way it is. Just like MMO Combat. Everything has to sync. Everything has to be calc right there on the spot.
Another trick to making AI look nice, are animations. I have seen some animations start from a idle combat position then to a full attack swing. This is horrible. Any game engine can fill in the blanks for animations. Like jumping animation. All I did was make a "pose" of the character jumping in mid air, the engine filled in the gaps and it looks like I made this long jump animation lol. Attacks are the same way. To make a mob look better, I make the mid attack pose, and the engine does the rest. It comes out as a very nice smooth animation. It helps 1000x with making the AI seem better.
So what youre saying nothing has advanced in last 15 years and nothing will further advance so it must be stuck in 1999?
And people wonder why MMOs have been losing ground big time.
This is not something that will happen over night, and certainly not in someones garage (well idea can come from garage, but implementation not)
Originally posted by AlanGreyjoy Originally posted by NildenOriginally posted by Xiaoki
Well, if they can have chess video games with smart AI then an MMO with smart AI should be no problem at all.Because, as we all know, there is little difference between chess video games and MMOs.Some one on a message board wants it to happen so obviously it can happen.Technological limitations? Bah! We have the power of wishing.Please by all means list even one technical limitation for improving the AI in MMOs.It all comes down to server side.
Dumb AI is less intense on the server resources.
I'll explain ( I am making an MMO)
Everything
Fantastic post. Thanks for typing all of that.
Posts like this should be stickied so anytime someone wants to complain about AI in MMOs and why must be so dumb(and it will happen again soon) we have posts like this preserved.
I would add that MMO AI has to be done server side because anything done client side can be tampered with.
Well, if they can have chess video games with smart AI then an MMO with smart AI should be no problem at all.
Because, as we all know, there is little difference between chess video games and MMOs.
Some one on a message board wants it to happen so obviously it can happen.
Technological limitations? Bah! We have the power of wishing.
Please by all means list even one technical limitation for improving the AI in MMOs.
It all comes down to server side.
Dumb AI is less intense on the server resources.
I'll explain ( I am making an MMO)
Everything and you can see and others can see at the same time as to be sent down from the server. (no... this does not mean environment stuff... unless maybe it's a windmill moving. Then the windmill animation has to sync with the server, so you and everyone else can see the windmill moving at the same time. When you login... there are hundreds of sync checks.. it's crazy.)
When making an online game, you can't just simply make one attack animation for your character. You also have to program it so that the server sends down that animation to other clients so they can see your animation playing. That's how multiplayer games work.
With that, onto AI.
The server has to update any and all clients that are rendering that one mob. The server tells your client where the mob is at, how it looks, what animation to play, everything. Think of it this way, what ever you see in single player, has to be done twice for multiplayer. It's crazy.. I know.
But why is the AI soooo retarded? It's just how it has to be done. It's programmed to do a lot of things. And each one of those things HAS to be sent down from the server and sync'd with everyone else's client that is attacking that mob or even more resource intense, a group of mobs. This makes the AI look very.. glitchy and like it's paused at times. In single player, everything is done local, so it's an ass ton faster. In my game, when I am running around by myself and with no testers on, the AI works very very smooth. Get a couple of players on that mob, it turns into a zombie that has no idea what to do at times. This is obviously my servers hardware.. but where do you draw the line with hardware? You'll always need more. Most company's find a nice medium that it can handle and leave it alone. This is the SOLE purpose of a "Stress Test". Bandwidth is not cheap either. Even more so for someone like me, who is making an mmo by himself with no money lmao.
The bottom line, there are way to many factors that can ruin an mmo. Since everything has to sync, there has to be a middle ground that will work for people that live 10 miles from the server and someone that lives 5,000 miles from the server. One day, mmo combat and mmo Ai will looks just as good as single player. But until everyone has 300mb down, fast computer, and server hardware is retarded powerful, this is just what you get.
The main thing that makes the AI look really nice and makes you think it's actually worth a damn, is a thing called Nav Mesh.
AI Pathfinding is no easy feat to program. Most MMO's just have them follow the target, when you get a certain distance away from the ray cast, and then the mob disengages and runs away. The mob may run away and run into a tree, wall, bush, rock, fence, everything else lmao.
Nav Mesh is when the server knows the position of EVERY SINGLE THING in the server AT ALL TIMES. This is then sent to the AI, so it knows where you are and objects in the world. This beats the shit out of the server. Imagine that multiplied by how many clients are in that area.
I know this may seem like a wall of text... and I am terrible at explaining things too.
MMO AI is just the way it is. Just like MMO Combat. Everything has to sync. Everything has to be calc right there on the spot.
Another trick to making AI look nice, are animations. I have seen some animations start from a idle combat position then to a full attack swing. This is horrible. Any game engine can fill in the blanks for animations. Like jumping animation. All I did was make a "pose" of the character jumping in mid air, the engine filled in the gaps and it looks like I made this long jump animation lol. Attacks are the same way. To make a mob look better, I make the mid attack pose, and the engine does the rest. It comes out as a very nice smooth animation. It helps 1000x with making the AI seem better.
Everquest and all the early MMOs had to deal with everything you just stated 15 years ago on 486 and pentium machines with 14.4 or 56k modems and the AI has not changed in any major relevant way since.
Improving the AI for MMOs is not a technical limitation.
Yeah, because you can TOTALLY put out a game that looks like EQ and rake in millions. Try again.
Yeah, because you can TOTALLY put out a game that looks like EQ and rake in millions. Try again.
I was talking about the AI and the technical limitations not the way it looks or the graphics.
Boy you're a fast study! Did you even read the post where someone spelled it out for you? let me repeat it a few times for you:
RESOURCES
RESOURCES
RESOURCES
Got it now? Guess what making a game that doesn't look like EQ takes? Yep, you guessed it. Guess what gets exponentially multiplied when you have more textures, etc to apply all of the AI rules to. Yep, you guessed it.
Keep thinking you know what you're talking about though, it's cool.
Yeah, because you can TOTALLY put out a game that looks like EQ and rake in millions. Try again.
I was talking about the AI and the technical limitations not the way it looks or the graphics.
Boy you're a fast study! Did you even read the post where someone spelled it out for you? let me repeat it a few times for you:
RESOURCES
RESOURCES
RESOURCES
Got it now? Guess what making a game that doesn't look like EQ takes? Yep, you guessed it. Guess what gets exponentially multiplied when you have more textures, etc to apply all of the AI rules to. Yep, you guessed it.
Keep thinking you know what you're talking about though, it's cool.
since you seem to be the expert, please enlighten us all how do you "apply all AI rules to the textures" and how "having more textures" multiples....something.....in that process.... and how does that all interwinse with....well....anything.
Yeah, because you can TOTALLY put out a game that looks like EQ and rake in millions. Try again.
I was talking about the AI and the technical limitations not the way it looks or the graphics.
Boy you're a fast study! Did you even read the post where someone spelled it out for you? let me repeat it a few times for you:
RESOURCES
RESOURCES
RESOURCES
Got it now? Guess what making a game that doesn't look like EQ takes? Yep, you guessed it. Guess what gets exponentially multiplied when you have more textures, etc to apply all of the AI rules to. Yep, you guessed it.
Keep thinking you know what you're talking about though, it's cool.
since you seem to be the expert, please enlighten us all how do you "apply all AI rules to the textures" and how "having more textures" multiples....something.....in that process.... and how does that all interwinse with....well....anything.
Looling forward to your post.
Do I really even need to reply when he is talking about multiplying AI rules because of textures?
"You CAN'T buy ships for RL money." - MaxBacon
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Yeah, because you can TOTALLY put out a game that looks like EQ and rake in millions. Try again.
I was talking about the AI and the technical limitations not the way it looks or the graphics.
Boy you're a fast study! Did you even read the post where someone spelled it out for you? let me repeat it a few times for you:
RESOURCES
RESOURCES
RESOURCES
Got it now? Guess what making a game that doesn't look like EQ takes? Yep, you guessed it. Guess what gets exponentially multiplied when you have more textures, etc to apply all of the AI rules to. Yep, you guessed it.
Keep thinking you know what you're talking about though, it's cool.
too easy .. people will QQ too. Just read this forum.
The only solution is a difficulty slider ... have to cover from very easy to very hard, else someone will complain.
AI is much more than just a difficulty slider that increases the mobs hp/damage. It's behavior, agency, and displaying what could be mistaken for intelligence. Like having a basic survival instinct script (like don't walk into fires) for living beings but none for undead since they just attack anything that moves and ignore environmental hazards. Wolves that have pack behavior, a morale system with leaders so when you kill the big bad massive orc all the little orcs and goblin slaves run screaming or stand stunned because or a morale loss.
This isn't even touching something like a memory system, or mood/emotion system.
"You CAN'T buy ships for RL money." - MaxBacon
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Yeah, because you can TOTALLY put out a game that looks like EQ and rake in millions. Try again.
I was talking about the AI and the technical limitations not the way it looks or the graphics.
Boy you're a fast study! Did you even read the post where someone spelled it out for you? let me repeat it a few times for you:
RESOURCES
RESOURCES
RESOURCES
Got it now? Guess what making a game that doesn't look like EQ takes? Yep, you guessed it. Guess what gets exponentially multiplied when you have more textures, etc to apply all of the AI rules to. Yep, you guessed it.
Keep thinking you know what you're talking about though, it's cool.
since you seem to be the expert, please enlighten us all how do you "apply all AI rules to the textures" and how "having more textures" multiples....something.....in that process.... and how does that all interwinse with....well....anything.
Looling forward to your post.
Do I really even need to reply when he is talking about multiplying AI rules because of textures?
Originally posted by Loktofeit Because if it was much smarter, it would kick your ass. Not that that is a bad thing, but for most people the mobs are a means to an end, so they really aren't looking for much smarter mobs. A few MMOs do have smarter mobs for those that want them.
This is exactly the case, especially today. Developers could put out A.I.'s that are VERY much smarter then the ones you generally see today. They could even put out ones that were adaptive to the players tactics and style of play (e.g. that "learned" in a rudimentary fashion). Even single player game A.I. tends to be purposefully "dumbed down" though not to the degree MMO's generally are. The reason this doesn't happen is that Dev's discovered that the majority of MMO players don't actually want a tactically challenging A.I. , they want something that is predictable and easy to beat.
Yeah, because you can TOTALLY put out a game that looks like EQ and rake in millions. Try again.
I was talking about the AI and the technical limitations not the way it looks or the graphics.
Boy you're a fast study! Did you even read the post where someone spelled it out for you? let me repeat it a few times for you:
RESOURCES
RESOURCES
RESOURCES
Got it now? Guess what making a game that doesn't look like EQ takes? Yep, you guessed it. Guess what gets exponentially multiplied when you have more textures, etc to apply all of the AI rules to. Yep, you guessed it.
Keep thinking you know what you're talking about though, it's cool.
since you seem to be the expert, please enlighten us all how do you "apply all AI rules to the textures" and how "having more textures" multiples....something.....in that process.... and how does that all interwinse with....well....anything.
Looling forward to your post.
Do I really even need to reply when he is talking about multiplying AI rules because of textures?
As i said, im looking forward to his post
Not the textures themselves, but all of the objects they make up.
I'll break it down for you simpletons (though this is by no means a real-world example)
You have 500 bytes in 1995 to make a mob. 300 is allocated to the actual rendering of said mob, 200 to their behavior, etc.
You have 1,000,000,000 bytes in 2015 to make a mob. Now that the standard for graphics has dramatically increased, so has the requirement for rendering. So even though you have a crazy amount more to work with, it gets eaten up by "progress" unless you're not worried about looks.
Now, not only do you have to make sure that the rendering of the character itself has what it needs to be up to snuff, it also needs to have effects, physics, etc that apply to it that did not back in the day. Orrrr you can look forward to people talking about how stupid your animations, etc look (see: tsw).
And that's all you get for free. Any effort taken beyond this point is just an exercise in futility, as you're not likely to understand.
Yeah, because you can TOTALLY put out a game that looks like EQ and rake in millions. Try again.
I was talking about the AI and the technical limitations not the way it looks or the graphics.
Boy you're a fast study! Did you even read the post where someone spelled it out for you? let me repeat it a few times for you:
RESOURCES
RESOURCES
RESOURCES
Got it now? Guess what making a game that doesn't look like EQ takes? Yep, you guessed it. Guess what gets exponentially multiplied when you have more textures, etc to apply all of the AI rules to. Yep, you guessed it.
Keep thinking you know what you're talking about though, it's cool.
since you seem to be the expert, please enlighten us all how do you "apply all AI rules to the textures" and how "having more textures" multiples....something.....in that process.... and how does that all interwinse with....well....anything.
Looling forward to your post.
Do I really even need to reply when he is talking about multiplying AI rules because of textures?
As i said, im looking forward to his post
Not the textures themselves, but all of the objects they make up.
I'll break it down for you simpletons (though this is by no means a real-world example)
You have 500 bytes in 1995 to make a mob. 300 is allocated to the actual rendering of said mob, 200 to their behavior, etc.
You have 1,000,000,000 bytes in 2015 to make a mob. Now that the standard for graphics has dramatically increased, so has the requirement for rendering. So even though you have a crazy amount more to work with, it gets eaten up by "progress" unless you're not worried about looks.
Now, not only do you have to make sure that the rendering of the character itself has what it needs to be up to snuff, it also needs to have effects, physics, etc that apply to it that did not back in the day. Orrrr you can look forward to people talking about how stupid your animations, etc look (see: tsw).
And that's all you get for free. Any effort taken beyond this point is just an exercise in futility, as you're not likely to understand.
If this was paid, everyone would go for chargeback
Comments
Please by all means list even one technical limitation for improving the AI in MMOs.
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/It all comes down to server side.
Dumb AI is less intense on the server resources.
I'll explain ( I am making an MMO)
Everything and you can see and others can see at the same time as to be sent down from the server. (no... this does not mean environment stuff... unless maybe it's a windmill moving. Then the windmill animation has to sync with the server, so you and everyone else can see the windmill moving at the same time. When you login... there are hundreds of sync checks.. it's crazy.)
When making an online game, you can't just simply make one attack animation for your character. You also have to program it so that the server sends down that animation to other clients so they can see your animation playing. That's how multiplayer games work.
With that, onto AI.
The server has to update any and all clients that are rendering that one mob. The server tells your client where the mob is at, how it looks, what animation to play, everything. Think of it this way, what ever you see in single player, has to be done twice for multiplayer. It's crazy.. I know.
But why is the AI soooo retarded? It's just how it has to be done. It's programmed to do a lot of things. And each one of those things HAS to be sent down from the server and sync'd with everyone else's client that is attacking that mob or even more resource intense, a group of mobs. This makes the AI look very.. glitchy and like it's paused at times. In single player, everything is done local, so it's an ass ton faster. In my game, when I am running around by myself and with no testers on, the AI works very very smooth. Get a couple of players on that mob, it turns into a zombie that has no idea what to do at times. This is obviously my servers hardware.. but where do you draw the line with hardware? You'll always need more. Most company's find a nice medium that it can handle and leave it alone. This is the SOLE purpose of a "Stress Test". Bandwidth is not cheap either. Even more so for someone like me, who is making an mmo by himself with no money lmao.
The bottom line, there are way to many factors that can ruin an mmo. Since everything has to sync, there has to be a middle ground that will work for people that live 10 miles from the server and someone that lives 5,000 miles from the server. One day, mmo combat and mmo Ai will looks just as good as single player. But until everyone has 300mb down, fast computer, and server hardware is retarded powerful, this is just what you get.
The main thing that makes the AI look really nice and makes you think it's actually worth a damn, is a thing called Nav Mesh.
AI Pathfinding is no easy feat to program. Most MMO's just have them follow the target, when you get a certain distance away from the ray cast, and then the mob disengages and runs away. The mob may run away and run into a tree, wall, bush, rock, fence, everything else lmao.
Nav Mesh is when the server knows the position of EVERY SINGLE THING in the server AT ALL TIMES. This is then sent to the AI, so it knows where you are and objects in the world. This beats the shit out of the server. Imagine that multiplied by how many clients are in that area.
I know this may seem like a wall of text... and I am terrible at explaining things too.
MMO AI is just the way it is. Just like MMO Combat. Everything has to sync. Everything has to be calc right there on the spot.
Another trick to making AI look nice, are animations. I have seen some animations start from a idle combat position then to a full attack swing. This is horrible. Any game engine can fill in the blanks for animations. Like jumping animation. All I did was make a "pose" of the character jumping in mid air, the engine filled in the gaps and it looks like I made this long jump animation lol. Attacks are the same way. To make a mob look better, I make the mid attack pose, and the engine does the rest. It comes out as a very nice smooth animation. It helps 1000x with making the AI seem better.
The Legend of Kilgore - http://www.thelegendofkilgore.com
Blizz already tried smart AI ... got QQ a lot, and dropped it.
hmm ... actually chess is pretty dumb AI, just alpha-beta pruning will beat 99.9999% of the population. Only Kasporov needs special treatment.
This has probably allready been said, TLDR, sorry if that is the case
But it is dumb by design, there is no problem constructing an AI that will beat a human player 100% of the time.
And not by being overpowered or have insane amounts of HP, and/or not have access to skills the human do not.
It is just that we are meant to win, it is the sole purpose of any game, we are the heroes!
Constructing a game were we can not win, or just a tiny fraction of the most uber players have a chance to win is incredibly bad business.
But not hard!
Adaptive AI though, not so easy, to give each player a challenge, depending on their skill set, that is another story altogether.
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Originally posted by Jerek_
I wonder if you honestly even believe what you type, or if you live in a made up world of facts.
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Just have a leaderboard like D3 .. problem solved.
Check and mate.
Also, nobody wants it, too hard, people will QQ.
Everquest and all the early MMOs had to deal with everything you just stated 15 years ago on 486 and pentium machines with 14.4 or 56k modems and the AI has not changed in any major relevant way since.
Improving the AI for MMOs is not a technical limitation.
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/In CoH it was an NPC you walked up to, which affected the level and quantity of the mobs you faced in missions.
A slider or NPC aren't even required though. You can achieve the same effect purely through rewards balancing. The typical failure of the genre is that you let players fight some mob ~5 levels above you, and it takes 100% longer than normal (because of HP scaling) and is very difficult, but only provides 30% more reward (when really it should be more like 130%, so that you advance faster by fighting tough opponents, rather than slower.) The same sort of thing would be applied to item drops for that mob.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Sorry, at this point ill just say go read the discussion again, its like deja vu.
too easy .. people will QQ too. Just read this forum.
The only solution is a difficulty slider ... have to cover from very easy to very hard, else someone will complain.
Sounds like more of a engine limitation then anything else. Playing Entropian Universe can handle a dozen players with 100 or so mobs all moving and interacting just fine while they hunt them. in fact I have seen upwards of 500+ mobs in one spot and still people are group killing and such. So there is less a technical problem when using the right engine.
HomePage/Gaming Blog - http://dalewj.com . MMORPGer - Current game: http://AfterWorld.ru .
Author of Diaries of Afterworld- http://www.jconsult.com/afterworld and the Outside Sci-Fi series- http://www.jconsult.com/outside
So what youre saying nothing has advanced in last 15 years and nothing will further advance so it must be stuck in 1999?
And people wonder why MMOs have been losing ground big time.
This is not something that will happen over night, and certainly not in someones garage (well idea can come from garage, but implementation not)
Please by all means list even one technical limitation for improving the AI in MMOs.
It all comes down to server side.
Dumb AI is less intense on the server resources.
I'll explain ( I am making an MMO)
Everything
Fantastic post. Thanks for typing all of that.
Posts like this should be stickied so anytime someone wants to complain about AI in MMOs and why must be so dumb(and it will happen again soon) we have posts like this preserved.
I would add that MMO AI has to be done server side because anything done client side can be tampered with.
Yeah, because you can TOTALLY put out a game that looks like EQ and rake in millions. Try again.
I was talking about the AI and the technical limitations not the way it looks or the graphics.
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/Boy you're a fast study! Did you even read the post where someone spelled it out for you? let me repeat it a few times for you:
RESOURCES
RESOURCES
RESOURCES
Got it now? Guess what making a game that doesn't look like EQ takes? Yep, you guessed it. Guess what gets exponentially multiplied when you have more textures, etc to apply all of the AI rules to. Yep, you guessed it.
Keep thinking you know what you're talking about though, it's cool.
since you seem to be the expert, please enlighten us all how do you "apply all AI rules to the textures" and how "having more textures" multiples....something.....in that process.... and how does that all interwinse with....well....anything.
Looling forward to your post.
Do I really even need to reply when he is talking about multiplying AI rules because of textures?
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/That almost made sense...
AI is much more than just a difficulty slider that increases the mobs hp/damage. It's behavior, agency, and displaying what could be mistaken for intelligence. Like having a basic survival instinct script (like don't walk into fires) for living beings but none for undead since they just attack anything that moves and ignore environmental hazards. Wolves that have pack behavior, a morale system with leaders so when you kill the big bad massive orc all the little orcs and goblin slaves run screaming or stand stunned because or a morale loss.
This isn't even touching something like a memory system, or mood/emotion system.
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/This!
As i said, im looking forward to his post
This is exactly the case, especially today. Developers could put out A.I.'s that are VERY much smarter then the ones you generally see today. They could even put out ones that were adaptive to the players tactics and style of play (e.g. that "learned" in a rudimentary fashion). Even single player game A.I. tends to be purposefully "dumbed down" though not to the degree MMO's generally are. The reason this doesn't happen is that Dev's discovered that the majority of MMO players don't actually want a tactically challenging A.I. , they want something that is predictable and easy to beat.
Not the textures themselves, but all of the objects they make up.
I'll break it down for you simpletons (though this is by no means a real-world example)
You have 500 bytes in 1995 to make a mob. 300 is allocated to the actual rendering of said mob, 200 to their behavior, etc.
You have 1,000,000,000 bytes in 2015 to make a mob. Now that the standard for graphics has dramatically increased, so has the requirement for rendering. So even though you have a crazy amount more to work with, it gets eaten up by "progress" unless you're not worried about looks.
Now, not only do you have to make sure that the rendering of the character itself has what it needs to be up to snuff, it also needs to have effects, physics, etc that apply to it that did not back in the day. Orrrr you can look forward to people talking about how stupid your animations, etc look (see: tsw).
And that's all you get for free. Any effort taken beyond this point is just an exercise in futility, as you're not likely to understand.
If this was paid, everyone would go for chargeback