Originally posted by Kayyd The reason I asked about less content, was that back in a Q&A with Brad, I think, he mentioned that it was easier and faster to develop content for a zoned world. That being the case the logical conclusion is that it is not "do you want a seamless world if it is free." The question is what content are you willing to loose to gain a seamless world.
I am not willing to loose any content for seemless worlds actually. My immersion is not breaking at all due to a loading screen. My immersion is breakind due to having to have my CC next to my keyboard all the time while playing modern games.
MMOs finally replaced social interaction, forced grouping and standing in a line while talking to eachother.
Now we have forced soloing, forced questing and everyone is the hero, without ever having to talk to anyone else. The evolution of multiplayer is here! We won,... right?
Originally posted by Rattenmann Originally posted by KayydThe reason I asked about less content, was that back in a Q&A with Brad, I think, he mentioned that it was easier and faster to develop content for a zoned world. That being the case the logical conclusion is that it is not "do you want a seamless world if it is free." The question is what content are you willing to loose to gain a seamless world.
I am not willing to loose any content for seemless worlds actually. My immersion is not breaking at all due to a loading screen. My immersion is breakind due to having to have my CC next to my keyboard all the time while playing modern games.
Thankfully you won't need that with Pantheon, I am a bit sick of all the micro transactions too mate!
I think non seem-less zones would be fine as long as there is a transition zone. It's a tough transition for me if I'm in a jungle and then I zone into a new area and suddenly I'm in the middle of frozen tundra. Adding in a little environmental transitional buffer space would be nice!
Originally posted by Phaen I too would prefer a seamless world like Vanguard, [...]
Vanguard wasnt truely seamless. It was continous - but every zone had clear barriers that would make you stop until the next zone was loaded, and mobs wouldnt follow you across zone borders either.
True seamlessness means you would never encounter barriers.
Originally posted by Phaen [...] as I think its more immersive, [...]
Thats an empty buzzword with little meaning. A game is actually immersive if its gameplay design is sound. Nothing else matters.
Originally posted by Dullahan
Ya, I'm not quite sure why they are going back to a zoned world.
Again, they never had true seamlessness.
Also they do it because of the limitated development ressources present.
Originally posted by Phaen I too would prefer a seamless world like Vanguard, [...]
Vanguard wasnt truely seamless. It was continous - but every zone had clear barriers that would make you stop until the next zone was loaded, and mobs wouldnt follow you across zone borders either.
True seamlessness means you would never encounter barriers.
Seamlessness was one of the original design choices for vanguard, but the coding failed to live up to the intent. Crossing chunk lines was supposed to happen without noticing it. I think the idea was that the game loads nearby chunks into memory before you cross the line, but (and Im guessing here) they could not fit current chunk plus the 8 nearby chunks all into memory.
Originally posted by Phaen I too would prefer a seamless world like Vanguard, [...]
Vanguard wasnt truely seamless. It was continous - but every zone had clear barriers that would make you stop until the next zone was loaded, and mobs wouldnt follow you across zone borders either.
True seamlessness means you would never encounter barriers.
Seamlessness was one of the original design choices for vanguard, but the coding failed to live up to the intent. Crossing chunk lines was supposed to happen without noticing it. I think the idea was that the game loads nearby chunks into memory before you cross the line, but (and Im guessing here) they could not fit current chunk plus the 8 nearby chunks all into memory.
I didn't quite understand that either. I understand the need for chunk lines, but I didn't see why the developers couldn't load all 8 nearby zones. In fact if the zone you came from had all eight nearby zones loaded, in theory all you'd need to do in crossing a zone lines is unload three zones that are no longer adjacent and load the three new ones that now are. The thing is, you have to do that to some degree to display content from adjacent zones that might be visible from the current one.
Originally posted by Phaen I too would prefer a seamless world like Vanguard, [...]
Vanguard wasnt truely seamless. It was continous - but every zone had clear barriers that would make you stop until the next zone was loaded, and mobs wouldnt follow you across zone borders either.
True seamlessness means you would never encounter barriers.
Originally posted by Phaen [...] as I think its more immersive, [...]
Thats an empty buzzword with little meaning. A game is actually immersive if its gameplay design is sound. Nothing else matters.
Originally posted by Dullahan
Ya, I'm not quite sure why they are going back to a zoned world.
Again, they never had true seamlessness.
Also they do it because of the limitated development ressources present.
Its true, it wasn't technically seamless in Vanguard, but on a fast computer you merely stuttered for a second. Thats pretty close, and not the same as zoned worlds of the past like Everquest.
Regarding immersion, it is used as a buzzword but its actually held meaning in regard to forms of entertainment, regardless of how other industries have misused it recently. Its used synonymously with Fantastic (derived from fantasy), but that word is used so informally that it no longer holds its original meaning which is imaginative or fanciful; remote from reality.
Originally posted by Phaen I too would prefer a seamless world like Vanguard, [...]
Vanguard wasnt truely seamless. It was continous - but every zone had clear barriers that would make you stop until the next zone was loaded, and mobs wouldnt follow you across zone borders either.
True seamlessness means you would never encounter barriers.
Seamlessness was one of the original design choices for vanguard, but the coding failed to live up to the intent. Crossing chunk lines was supposed to happen without noticing it. I think the idea was that the game loads nearby chunks into memory before you cross the line, but (and Im guessing here) they could not fit current chunk plus the 8 nearby chunks all into memory.
I didn't quite understand that either. I understand the need for chunk lines, but I didn't see why the developers couldn't load all 8 nearby zones. In fact if the zone you came from had all eight nearby zones loaded, in theory all you'd need to do in crossing a zone lines is unload three zones that are no longer adjacent and load the three new ones that now are. The thing is, you have to do that to some degree to display content from adjacent zones that might be visible from the current one.
I don't get it either. It doesn't even have to be 8 "entire" zones, it could just be a certain distance depending on how far away you can see. I guess its more complicated than we think.
Originally posted by Niien I personally don't mind the zoning as long as the zones are pretty big. The seamless world is nice, though not really worth losing sleep over for me.
For me as well.
Del Cabon A US Army ('Just Cause') Vet and MMORPG Native formerly of Trinsic, Norath and Dereth. Currently playing LOTRO.
Non-seamless is a HUGE let down for me. It could very well be a deal breaker for me. I hate being taken out of immersion in an MMORPG like this. This kind of thing is a major obstacle for me that will simply cause me to lack the desire to log into the game, just like the other non-seamless game worlds that have come and gone.
I was shocked to hear it because everything about this game sounds amazing, but this is just a massive disappointment. I just hope that they can still make it seamless.
Non-seamless is a HUGE let down for me. It could very well be a deal breaker for me. I hate being taken out of immersion in an MMORPG like this. This kind of thing is a major obstacle for me that will simply cause me to lack the desire to log into the game, just like the other non-seamless game worlds that have come and gone.
I was shocked to hear it because everything about this game sounds amazing, but this is just a massive disappointment. I just hope that they can still make it seamless.
This sounds rather extreme. Can you explain WHY zones break your immersion that bad? Actually i am having a hard time getting really "immersed" in a game anyways due to all the new features we have been getting in the past 10 years. Games are all about convenience and getting a quick fix of accomplishment in a 10-20 min time frame. Nothing about MMOs in the past 10 years+ actually tried to get you immersed. Quite the opposite actually.
Just asking because there are dozens of things that break immersion in games that are in your face 100% of the time, while zones are only noticeable while traveling.
Think cash shops, that annoying dollar sign right in your interface all the time. Hard to find a MMO that does not have that.
NPCs that keep telling you how awesome you are and how you are the one hero, right from level 1 (then dying to a level 2 rat the minute after).
Combat animations that are so over the top in every game lately. You are doing backflips combined with 3 full circles while jumping 5 meter high, just do "animate" an auto attack. God knows how to describe what toons are doing with a "special" attack.
level locked content: "You have to be level 10 before you can ride this horse because of [reasons]" or worse: "you can not enter this zone unless you are max level!".
There are more things, but those are the four that jumped right into my mind.
Again, not trying to attack you or anything. I just don't understand, but would love to understand the reasoning behind that rather extreme feelings you are describing. Do you not play MMOs usually? Some solo RPGs actually offer a slight immersion, but MMOs? hmm.
MMOs finally replaced social interaction, forced grouping and standing in a line while talking to eachother.
Now we have forced soloing, forced questing and everyone is the hero, without ever having to talk to anyone else. The evolution of multiplayer is here! We won,... right?
Non-seamless is a HUGE let down for me. It could very well be a deal breaker for me. I hate being taken out of immersion in an MMORPG like this. This kind of thing is a major obstacle for me that will simply cause me to lack the desire to log into the game, just like the other non-seamless game worlds that have come and gone.
I was shocked to hear it because everything about this game sounds amazing, but this is just a massive disappointment. I just hope that they can still make it seamless.
This sounds rather extreme. Can you explain WHY zones break your immersion that bad? Actually i am having a hard time getting really "immersed" in a game anyways due to all the new features we have been getting in the past 10 years. Games are all about convenience and getting a quick fix of accomplishment in a 10-20 min time frame. Nothing about MMOs in the past 10 years+ actually tried to get you immersed. Quite the opposite actually.
Just asking because there are dozens of things that break immersion in games that are in your face 100% of the time, while zones are only noticeable while traveling.
Think cash shops, that annoying dollar sign right in your interface all the time. Hard to find a MMO that does not have that.
NPCs that keep telling you how awesome you are and how you are the one hero, right from level 1 (then dying to a level 2 rat the minute after).
Combat animations that are so over the top in every game lately. You are doing backflips combined with 3 full circles while jumping 5 meter high, just do "animate" an auto attack. God knows how to describe what toons are doing with a "special" attack.
level locked content: "You have to be level 10 before you can ride this horse because of [reasons]" or worse: "you can not enter this zone unless you are max level!".
There are more things, but those are the four that jumped right into my mind.
Again, not trying to attack you or anything. I just don't understand, but would love to understand the reasoning behind that rather extreme feelings you are describing. Do you not play MMOs usually? Some solo RPGs actually offer a slight immersion, but MMOs? hmm.
I totally agree with your point. Immersion has been dead in MMO's for 10 years. I have a hard time imagining how having to load a zone is that big of a deal.
In every MMO I can think of, there are loading screens at some point in the game since they are all highly instanced. How immersed in a game can you really be when you can run an instanced dungeon over and over again and kill the same bosses 2-4 times in a single night?
One of the things I am excited about with Pantheon is they are sticking to their guns, and won't bend to the usual crowds who come to the boards threatening to pass on the game if xyz needs are not met. The people that understand the niche that VRI is aiming for are being listened to, and the people that want all of their demanding needs met or they become negative/threatening are being told this game may not be for them. It's about time we started seeing developers take this approach. Games like EQN are what is wrong with the path modern MMO's are going, in my opinion, and its awesome to see some of the new development groups going another route.
I have no problems with a game that uses zones. I have had more fun exploring in GW2 and ESO than I have just about any other game and they use zones. I can run around a zone in ESO for 2+ hours and not even notice. As long as each zone is of good size and has things to do and find its fine IMO.
Loading a zone will take seconds. It is a non-issue given he over-all benefit they bring.
Not to mention pci-e solid states that are becoming popular make loading pretty much instantaneous. The connection speed/network data will become the only bottleneck.
Ya, I'm not quite sure why they are going back to a zoned world. You would think after 15 years seamless would have become fairly easy. Its probably my only real disappointment with Pantheon other than perhaps their reluctance to have pvp servers at launch.
In the end its not game breaking, just a little annoying.
One word "Unity" it doesn't support it natively so they would have to do allot of work to include it.
it might not have it out of the box but there are literally tons of options available in the store to make this happen.. basically there is very little work to do that kind of thing in Unity.
To their credit, WoW did an amazing job with the world rebuild for Cataclysm.
You can walk/fly across pretty much every inch of the continent with zero lag or load times.
The Pantheon webpage images show me a world with similar graphical quality to The Elder Scrolls: Oblivion.
That's what, 2006?
WoW was 2004 with an engine dating back to 2000 or earlier.
Only excuse for zoning and chunking and lag etc. is bad coding, poor optimization.
Sorry, it's the truth.
GW2, made by a company with a GREAT history of writing amazing network code (their founder pretty much wrote battle.net) only was zoned because the game required so much instancing and phasing with the way they did the story-mode stuff.
If GW2 would have scrapped the whole personal story stuff (wouldn't that have been nice?) I promise 100% there wouldn't have been a single zone line. (other than the group-dungeons of course, like WoW)
SWTOR was the same way - really, really crappy engine implementation, terrible optimization and net code. They bought a pre-beta version of the Hero engine and hacked the crap out of it to even get it to work at all for what they were trying to do - again, heavily instanced and phased for story- even the guys behind Hero engine distanced themselves from the wreck that Bioware made with it.
Really surprised no-one is making an MMO utilizing the Frostbite engine. That thing scales nearly infinitely and is made for network function. Same with the Dunia 2 engine used for Farcry 3/4, with features ripped into the Anvil engine for Assassin's Creed: Black Flag and Unity.
I think their excuse is the Unity engine. Perhaps it isn't capable of being modified to allow for a seamless world or at least one of the scale they are trying for. Especially since its claim to fame is strong cross platform compatibility. If you go to the Unity website, it doesn't list seamless worlds as one of the bullet points. A feature I would consider important to note in a game engine that is for sale.
Originally posted by Kilrain Maybe they're going all out for the old school feel.
Or they are managing their time / ressources well.
Implementing seamless worlds is a huge time factor for very little gain. Sure it is nice to have, but far from important for a good game. There are very many more pressing issues that can make or break the game. Glad they are focusing on those (first).
MMOs finally replaced social interaction, forced grouping and standing in a line while talking to eachother.
Now we have forced soloing, forced questing and everyone is the hero, without ever having to talk to anyone else. The evolution of multiplayer is here! We won,... right?
It's not that complicated to explain how zoning breaks immersion for me. It reaffirms that I am boxed in a zone. Takes away the feeling that I am in a world, but rather inside a zone. Reminds me that the horizon I am looking at in any direction is actually a zone barrier. Reminds me that I am in a zone with only the people who are also in my zone. If I am chasing anyone, they will disappear when they enter the magic zone line. If I am being chased, all I have to do is run to the zone line. The other immersion breaking features that you listed are also a problem, but this one is the biggest for me by far. Negative features are not excused by pointing to other negative features.
They're either going to make specific zone entrances/exits which will completely ruin the immersion of the freedom of exploration, or they will have to make it so that you can zone into another zone anywhere, which will be really weird and annoying if you don't know where the zone line is and you're constantly zoning in and out of places accidentally the whole time. EQ1 was a mixture of both and only worked for EQ1 because it was the first of its kind and people were so amazed by it that they didn't care and had no 3D MMORPG in a seamless world to compare it to.
Since games like WoW have taken us to the next level in this regard, it's not really possible for me to go back and enjoy the old primitive way.
Since games like WoW have taken us to the next level in this regard, it's not really possible for me to go back and enjoy the old primitive way.
Lol, because there's nothing immersion breaking about a world of shockingly loud cartoon colors, or giant question marks floating over characters heads. For me it's the exact opposite, everything about Wow, at every turn, screams: this is a game and not a world, compared to that zoning is a tiny thing,
Also, Asheron's call released in Nov 1999 had a huge seamless world, five years before the Nov 2004 release of Wow. Crediting Wow with taking it to the next level is a huge stretch.
The only MMOs that felt like worlds I was immersed in had zoning. It does nothing to break my immersion at all. If it is a quality game, with diversity, variety, many things to do, I will feel immsersed, whether I had 1 second loading screen or not.
Even WoW has zones to the other continents, and into instances. Just about every MMO these days, even if they are "seamless" have instances, which have loading times and break "immersion". Instances break immersion more so than zones imo, yet there is still a place for them in moderation.
Since games like WoW have taken us to the next level in this regard, it's not really possible for me to go back and enjoy the old primitive way.
Lol, because there's nothing immersion breaking about a world of shockingly loud cartoon colors, or giant question marks floating over characters heads. For me it's the exact opposite, everything about Wow, at every turn, screams: this is a game and not a world, compared to that zoning is a tiny thing,
Also, Asheron's call released in Nov 1999 had a huge seamless world, five years before the Nov 2004 release of Wow. Crediting Wow with taking it to the next level is a huge stretch.
ROFLCOPTER, because there's nothing more immersion breaking than exploring a world you're immersed in only to constantly run into zone boundaries so that you can load into another zone, either through a specific entrance/exit that you're forced to go through, or invisible zone lines where you'll constantly unexpectedly stumble into a loading screen. A big chopped up world of separate zones where things are happening independently in each zone. For me, it's the most immersion breaking.
The fact remains that WoW has a seamless world in comparison to Pantheon and going backwards is a negative no matter how anyone tries to spin it. If the developers of Pantheon were to announce that they figured out a way to make it seamless, I doubt that anyone would become upset. LOL
Comments
I am not willing to loose any content for seemless worlds actually. My immersion is not breaking at all due to a loading screen. My immersion is breakind due to having to have my CC next to my keyboard all the time while playing modern games.
MMOs finally replaced social interaction, forced grouping and standing in a line while talking to eachother.
Now we have forced soloing, forced questing and everyone is the hero, without ever having to talk to anyone else. The evolution of multiplayer is here! We won,... right?
Thankfully you won't need that with Pantheon, I am a bit sick of all the micro transactions too mate!
Vanguard wasnt truely seamless. It was continous - but every zone had clear barriers that would make you stop until the next zone was loaded, and mobs wouldnt follow you across zone borders either.
True seamlessness means you would never encounter barriers.
Thats an empty buzzword with little meaning. A game is actually immersive if its gameplay design is sound. Nothing else matters.
Again, they never had true seamlessness.
Also they do it because of the limitated development ressources present.
Seamlessness was one of the original design choices for vanguard, but the coding failed to live up to the intent. Crossing chunk lines was supposed to happen without noticing it. I think the idea was that the game loads nearby chunks into memory before you cross the line, but (and Im guessing here) they could not fit current chunk plus the 8 nearby chunks all into memory.
I didn't quite understand that either. I understand the need for chunk lines, but I didn't see why the developers couldn't load all 8 nearby zones. In fact if the zone you came from had all eight nearby zones loaded, in theory all you'd need to do in crossing a zone lines is unload three zones that are no longer adjacent and load the three new ones that now are. The thing is, you have to do that to some degree to display content from adjacent zones that might be visible from the current one.
Its true, it wasn't technically seamless in Vanguard, but on a fast computer you merely stuttered for a second. Thats pretty close, and not the same as zoned worlds of the past like Everquest.
Regarding immersion, it is used as a buzzword but its actually held meaning in regard to forms of entertainment, regardless of how other industries have misused it recently. Its used synonymously with Fantastic (derived from fantasy), but that word is used so informally that it no longer holds its original meaning which is imaginative or fanciful; remote from reality.
I don't get it either. It doesn't even have to be 8 "entire" zones, it could just be a certain distance depending on how far away you can see. I guess its more complicated than we think.
For me as well.
Del Cabon
A US Army ('Just Cause') Vet and MMORPG Native formerly of Trinsic, Norath and Dereth. Currently playing LOTRO.
Non-seamless is a HUGE let down for me. It could very well be a deal breaker for me. I hate being taken out of immersion in an MMORPG like this. This kind of thing is a major obstacle for me that will simply cause me to lack the desire to log into the game, just like the other non-seamless game worlds that have come and gone.
I was shocked to hear it because everything about this game sounds amazing, but this is just a massive disappointment. I just hope that they can still make it seamless.
This sounds rather extreme. Can you explain WHY zones break your immersion that bad? Actually i am having a hard time getting really "immersed" in a game anyways due to all the new features we have been getting in the past 10 years. Games are all about convenience and getting a quick fix of accomplishment in a 10-20 min time frame. Nothing about MMOs in the past 10 years+ actually tried to get you immersed. Quite the opposite actually.
Just asking because there are dozens of things that break immersion in games that are in your face 100% of the time, while zones are only noticeable while traveling.
Again, not trying to attack you or anything. I just don't understand, but would love to understand the reasoning behind that rather extreme feelings you are describing. Do you not play MMOs usually? Some solo RPGs actually offer a slight immersion, but MMOs? hmm.
MMOs finally replaced social interaction, forced grouping and standing in a line while talking to eachother.
Now we have forced soloing, forced questing and everyone is the hero, without ever having to talk to anyone else. The evolution of multiplayer is here! We won,... right?
I totally agree with your point. Immersion has been dead in MMO's for 10 years. I have a hard time imagining how having to load a zone is that big of a deal.
In every MMO I can think of, there are loading screens at some point in the game since they are all highly instanced. How immersed in a game can you really be when you can run an instanced dungeon over and over again and kill the same bosses 2-4 times in a single night?
One of the things I am excited about with Pantheon is they are sticking to their guns, and won't bend to the usual crowds who come to the boards threatening to pass on the game if xyz needs are not met. The people that understand the niche that VRI is aiming for are being listened to, and the people that want all of their demanding needs met or they become negative/threatening are being told this game may not be for them. It's about time we started seeing developers take this approach. Games like EQN are what is wrong with the path modern MMO's are going, in my opinion, and its awesome to see some of the new development groups going another route.
Win10 will be 64bit.
Laptops now come with 8gig of memory.
SSDs are dirt cheap.
Loading a zone will take seconds. It is a non-issue given he over-all benefit they bring.
Seamless is overrated IMO.
I have no problems with a game that uses zones. I have had more fun exploring in GW2 and ESO than I have just about any other game and they use zones. I can run around a zone in ESO for 2+ hours and not even notice. As long as each zone is of good size and has things to do and find its fine IMO.
Not to mention pci-e solid states that are becoming popular make loading pretty much instantaneous. The connection speed/network data will become the only bottleneck.
it might not have it out of the box but there are literally tons of options available in the store to make this happen.. basically there is very little work to do that kind of thing in Unity.
I think their excuse is the Unity engine. Perhaps it isn't capable of being modified to allow for a seamless world or at least one of the scale they are trying for. Especially since its claim to fame is strong cross platform compatibility. If you go to the Unity website, it doesn't list seamless worlds as one of the bullet points. A feature I would consider important to note in a game engine that is for sale.
Or they are managing their time / ressources well.
Implementing seamless worlds is a huge time factor for very little gain. Sure it is nice to have, but far from important for a good game. There are very many more pressing issues that can make or break the game. Glad they are focusing on those (first).
MMOs finally replaced social interaction, forced grouping and standing in a line while talking to eachother.
Now we have forced soloing, forced questing and everyone is the hero, without ever having to talk to anyone else. The evolution of multiplayer is here! We won,... right?
It's not that complicated to explain how zoning breaks immersion for me. It reaffirms that I am boxed in a zone. Takes away the feeling that I am in a world, but rather inside a zone. Reminds me that the horizon I am looking at in any direction is actually a zone barrier. Reminds me that I am in a zone with only the people who are also in my zone. If I am chasing anyone, they will disappear when they enter the magic zone line. If I am being chased, all I have to do is run to the zone line. The other immersion breaking features that you listed are also a problem, but this one is the biggest for me by far. Negative features are not excused by pointing to other negative features.
They're either going to make specific zone entrances/exits which will completely ruin the immersion of the freedom of exploration, or they will have to make it so that you can zone into another zone anywhere, which will be really weird and annoying if you don't know where the zone line is and you're constantly zoning in and out of places accidentally the whole time. EQ1 was a mixture of both and only worked for EQ1 because it was the first of its kind and people were so amazed by it that they didn't care and had no 3D MMORPG in a seamless world to compare it to.
Since games like WoW have taken us to the next level in this regard, it's not really possible for me to go back and enjoy the old primitive way.
Lol, because there's nothing immersion breaking about a world of shockingly loud cartoon colors, or giant question marks floating over characters heads. For me it's the exact opposite, everything about Wow, at every turn, screams: this is a game and not a world, compared to that zoning is a tiny thing,
Also, Asheron's call released in Nov 1999 had a huge seamless world, five years before the Nov 2004 release of Wow. Crediting Wow with taking it to the next level is a huge stretch.
The only MMOs that felt like worlds I was immersed in had zoning. It does nothing to break my immersion at all. If it is a quality game, with diversity, variety, many things to do, I will feel immsersed, whether I had 1 second loading screen or not.
Even WoW has zones to the other continents, and into instances. Just about every MMO these days, even if they are "seamless" have instances, which have loading times and break "immersion". Instances break immersion more so than zones imo, yet there is still a place for them in moderation.
ROFLCOPTER, because there's nothing more immersion breaking than exploring a world you're immersed in only to constantly run into zone boundaries so that you can load into another zone, either through a specific entrance/exit that you're forced to go through, or invisible zone lines where you'll constantly unexpectedly stumble into a loading screen. A big chopped up world of separate zones where things are happening independently in each zone. For me, it's the most immersion breaking.
The fact remains that WoW has a seamless world in comparison to Pantheon and going backwards is a negative no matter how anyone tries to spin it. If the developers of Pantheon were to announce that they figured out a way to make it seamless, I doubt that anyone would become upset. LOL