Many people seem to forget that GW2 lacks flying mounts, but it has many (MANY) respawn points, which you can instantly teleport between once you've discovered them.
In earlier WoW expansions, flying was restricted to max level, the idea being that you'd have to go through the content on foot and only be able to fly once you completed most of it. For some reason, in WoD they decided to not follow this trend, which might seem nice for your first playthrough, but once you've explored everything and still have 30 "fetch me a spoon" quests left, it's just tedious. It's even more tedious when your alt has to do all the exact same things...
Personally, I don't get it. Why not just tack a quest on the end of the last quest chain that rewards you with a token you can take to your garrison and use it + 25K gold to buy "Draenor Orc Camp Flying" or some such? The point is to limit flight so you have to play the content the way they designed it... once you've done that, there's no point to continuing to restrict it.
Many newer players (last 10 years) don't get it, it's about engagement with the virtual world, a big issue with wow now. It's not a 'restriction' it's a facet of the virtual world (an RPG thing)
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
I agree that teleport waypoint fast travel is ideal so long as a good balance of waypoints to explorable locales is struck. Ideally it would set players up to explore whatever region they chose while not teleporting them directly to everything worth exploring.
Sure. I don't know of a waypoint-based game that doesn't work that way (they all force you to explore the next area to get each waypoint, so you always experience that first exploration of new areas.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Originally posted by Bladestrom Many newer players (last 10 years) don't get it, it's about engagement with the virtual world, a big issue with wow now. It's not a 'restriction' it's a facet of the virtual world (an RPG thing)
It is not that they don't get it .. it is that they don't like it.
A virtual world is no very fun if you have the trek the same path again, again, again and again. And there is nothing inherent about why someone cannot fly through a virtual world.
If that is what I have to do in a game, i would rather NOT have a virtual world. As many MMOs have discovered, a virtual world is not needed to a) attract players, and b) to be called a MMO.
Wouldn't they make more money by continuing to push new flying mounts in the store, and by making flying available in the expansion increase those sales?
Originally posted by Cothor Wouldn't they make more money by continuing to push new flying mounts in the store, and by making flying available in the expansion increase those sales?
If the expansion wasn't made for flying it would take a revamp to make it work, and it would be a lot of work. More than they will earn on selling mounts.
The problem anyways with flying mounts is while they are cool they make the game really small and make avoiding dangerous situations far too easy.I think taking them away in the new zones was the right choice.
But it is a matter of personal preferance as usual.
The problem anyways with flying mounts is while they are cool they make make avoiding dangerous situations far too easy when developers can't be bothered to add aerial dangers.
But it is a matter of personal preferance as usual.
Originally posted by Cothor Wouldn't they make more money by continuing to push new flying mounts in the store, and by making flying available in the expansion increase those sales?
If the expansion wasn't made for flying it would take a revamp to make it work, and it would be a lot of work. More than they will earn on selling mounts.
The problem anyways with flying mounts is while they are cool they make the game really small and make avoiding dangerous situations far too easy.I think taking them away in the new zones was the right choice.
But it is a matter of personal preferance as usual.
The problem is that the original design of WOW has evolved too much and many elements are becoming inconsistent. And a virtual world is too much trouble than it is worth. If you let players fly, you wasted your time building the world. If you force people to walk, they complained that it is not convenient (which it is not).
In fact, Blizz got rid of this problem by making MOBAs, card games and online shooters. Why bother with virtual worlds at all?
Apparently, Blizzard felt it had moved too far away from the virtual world, so they decided to make changes to move back towards that ideal. They even said so prior to the release of the expansion (it was covered by MMORPG.com). So they seemed to want to revert some of the side effects that came with the move towards convenience.
Unfortunately, that purpose is obscured by the introduction of Garrisons. It's a kind of schizophrenic expansion that way.
Personally I feel it would work better with a teleportation system as Axehilt mentioned. But hey, i'm not Blizzard. They make the money and hold the market by the balls, so I would dare not claim to be more in tune with the market than they are.
I dislike many decisions that Blizzard made for World of Warcraft, and the first one I recall is when they implemented the LFG queue feature. However, the company clearly knows it's player base, because the game remains the money making behemoth of the genre. I can sympathize with the players who want to use flying mounts in a new expansion, but I think the sense of scale is lost when players fly over the content. It may simply be a poor design choice, but again, it's hard to say the company made a poor design choice when the people stay subscribed.
Originally posted by MadFrenchie Apparently, Blizzard felt it had moved too far away from the virtual world, so they decided to make changes to move back towards that ideal. They even said so prior to the release of the expansion (it was covered by MMORPG.com). So they seemed to want to revert some of the side effects that came with the move towards convenience.
That is the problem. A virtual world design conflicts with convenience, and sometimes gameplay. And Blizz cannot get rid of the virtual world for WOW because it is already an intergral part, and people expect it to be there.
This tug of war will continue in wow, although i think Blizz has already solved the problem in their newer games ... by not including virtual world at all.
There is one person on these forums who rubbishes any type of social aspects of gaming ever spoken about.I hear(read) said person say the same thing over and over again on every single thread on this forum.It makes me think 'why are they typing here so much?' Why not enjoying these no contact with living soul games? Are they really on the side of more hardcore type of play and just being ultra sarcastic or really just like a broken record on 22 000 scratch in the vinyl jump.......?
Originally posted by Damon I dislike many decisions that Blizzard made for World of Warcraft, and the first one I recall is when they implemented the LFG queue feature. However, the company clearly knows it's player base, because the game remains the money making behemoth of the genre. I can sympathize with the players who want to use flying mounts in a new expansion, but I think the sense of scale is lost when players fly over the content. It may simply be a poor design choice, but again, it's hard to say the company made a poor design choice when the people stay subscribed.
If it knew it's player base so well, it wouldn't have lost almost 4 million players in WoD. Flying was a part of the reason why many people have left. They removed flying way too late over the years. It wouldn't have been so bad if they stopped adding it beyond BC.
observer, I imagine the number of subscribers jumped when WoD was released, and this is the predictable result of players (who returned for WoD) losing interest again and unsubscribing. Can you link me to the article where you read the information?
I just performed a quick search and the timeline on this chart seems to corroborate my assumption.
Originally posted by Ludwik WoW had 4 expansions full of cool flying mounts, they sold them in their cash shop, they gave them away at events.
They disabled flying in WoD.
I think this was big mistake from Blizzard, but even more, much more, that abomination of "new models". And they just ignore all unsatisfied customers.
Every expansion has a rise and then fall of players. WoW created the idea that an MMORPG is a game you grind to max level and destroy all the content in, and then quit till they make new content or you get bored doing daily quests or PvP has finally frustrated you enough to stop. Blizzard has charts and graphs and data, they wouldnt have done it, or stuck with it, if it was really hurting them. I see lots of you talking about how not having flying mounts made you quit, but I imagine most of you would have quit in another month or two anyway once you did the stuff and toured the theme park. Not having flying mounts makes world pvp an option, makes so many things an option, and makes me happy. Im actually thinking about giving it a go again, people tell me it sucks less now if you want something more like vanilla WoW or a challenge. I think in the long run the people who really love WoW are gonna keep playing, just like people still play EQ, some people are never gonna stop or give up on the investment they have already made. Other people are always gonna resub and do the content, then quit. Other people might be interested enough to try it again or give it a go if blizzard makes changes.
I remember world pvp you could not escape from, world pvp taking over entire zones in WoW. Not just some troll flying in and killing you and flying away but rather groups raiding areas and other groups hunting them and having huge fights going all over the zone... Idk flying seems to screw that up for me and makes questing less fun even...
Maybe Im wrong but if WoW makes it so you have to play the game more, interact with the world more, and creates more chances for players to interact outside quick content you access via a LFG tool, it will make it a better game and allow it to live even longer... Blizzards logic has always been to make money, as much money as possible. I imagine this change had that in mind as well and I imagine in the long run people will appreciate living in a world more then flying mounts/convenience features. After all if you just want to do content or pvp, why not play a single player rpg or moba, MMORPGs are about the world and the people in the long run...
observer, I imagine the number of subscribers jumped when WoD was released, and this is the predictable result of players (who returned for WoD) losing interest again and unsubscribing. Can you link me to the article where you read the information?
I just performed a quick search and the timeline on this chart seems to corroborate my assumption.
Except it wasn't predictable. They never thought they would lose 3 million in one quarter. That was unheard of in WoW. The most they ever lost was around 1 million between quarters and expansions.
I'm not saying flying was the sole reason for the exodus, but it was one of many.
Originally posted by Damon I dislike many decisions that Blizzard made for World of Warcraft, and the first one I recall is when they implemented the LFG queue feature. However, the company clearly knows it's player base, because the game remains the money making behemoth of the genre. I can sympathize with the players who want to use flying mounts in a new expansion, but I think the sense of scale is lost when players fly over the content. It may simply be a poor design choice, but again, it's hard to say the company made a poor design choice when the people stay subscribed.
If it knew it's player base so well, it wouldn't have lost almost 4 million players in WoD. Flying was a part of the reason why many people have left. They removed flying way too late over the years. It wouldn't have been so bad if they stopped adding it beyond BC.
Umm 2.9 million is now "almost 4 million"? Based on this comment it's safe to say the credibility of your post is subject.
It's likely their logic isn't a large, broken image.
No, as other posters have stated, Blizzard felt that any new zones they were implementing were being wasted as players simply skipped the world to fly to the waypoint. They wanted this expansion to bring back a virtual world feel.
This flying also resulted in players not having a real chance to interact with one another in the game world either, something Blizzard wanted to encourage by disabling flying mounts. However, they also added Garrisons in this expansion, which kind of contradicts this idea. So they weren't incredibly consistent about it.
No flying and garrisons could just be two totally non joined up ideas and there is no logic other than Blizzard doing what will appeal to the most people for the longest time (i.e. make the most money).
Alternatively the two are connected. Removal of flying means it takes people longer to complete quests / go places; added grind in other words. And garrisons .... add grind. So it is possible that the two are driven by the same aim: get people who bought the expansion to subscribe for longer than "30 days" post release.
observer, I imagine the number of subscribers jumped when WoD was released, and this is the predictable result of players (who returned for WoD) losing interest again and unsubscribing. Can you link me to the article where you read the information?
I just performed a quick search and the timeline on this chart seems to corroborate my assumption.
Except it wasn't predictable. They never thought they would lose 3 million in one quarter. That was unheard of in WoW. The most they ever lost was around 1 million between quarters and expansions.
I'm not saying flying was the sole reason for the exodus, but it was one of many.
The bump from MoP was about 1 million subs. MoP in 9 months lost 3 to 3.5 million subs...that is about 2.5 million excluding the bump. WoD started at a little over 7 million and rose to just over 10 million. In 6 months WoD fell to 6.8 million. Excluding the bump that is about .5 million people opposed to 2.5 in 9 months in MoP.
observer, I imagine the number of subscribers jumped when WoD was released, and this is the predictable result of players (who returned for WoD) losing interest again and unsubscribing. Can you link me to the article where you read the information?
I just performed a quick search and the timeline on this chart seems to corroborate my assumption.
Except it wasn't predictable. They never thought they would lose 3 million in one quarter. That was unheard of in WoW. The most they ever lost was around 1 million between quarters and expansions.
I'm not saying flying was the sole reason for the exodus, but it was one of many.
The bump from MoP was about 1 million subs. MoP in 9 months lost 3 to 3.5 million subs...that is about 2.5 million excluding the bump. WoD started at a little over 7 million and rose to just over 10 million. In 6 months WoD fell to 6.8 million. Excluding the bump that is about .5 million people opposed to 2.5 in 9 months in MoP.
So not unheard of.
Yes it is unheard of. I posted the numbers previously but obviously need to do so again - the link above has them.
Q2 '12 - 9.1M pre-Mop
Q3 '12 - 10M so MoP jump was 0.9M
Q4 '12 - 9.6M, a 1 quarter drop of 0.4 compared to WoD's 1 quarter drop of 0.4M.
Q1 '13 - 8.3M
Q2 '13 - 7.7M so a 3 quarter drop of 2.3M, not the 3 to 3.5M you mention.
Q3 '13 - 7.6M
Q4 '13 - 7.8M
Q1 '14 - 7.6M
Q2 '14 - 6.8M
Q3 '14 - 7.4M
Q4 '14 - 10M so a jump of 2.6M
Q1 '15 - 7.1M, a drop of 2.9M. Subs post MoP eventually dropped 3.2M - after 7 quarters.
So the "excluding the bump" numbers after 1 quarter are:
MoP higher by 0.5M
WoD lower by 0.3M.
And that is all we can do; that is the like for like comparison. A 1 quarter change compared to a 1 quarter change. Doing anything else would be like comparing WoD's 2.6M jump with MoP's 8.5M jump for example; suggesting MoP was far superior. OK you have to go back to Q1 '05 to get that jump but if timescales don't matter ......
WoW subs 1 quarter after WoD are 300k lower than they were 1 quarter before WoD.
observer, I imagine the number of subscribers jumped when WoD was released, and this is the predictable result of players (who returned for WoD) losing interest again and unsubscribing. Can you link me to the article where you read the information?
I just performed a quick search and the timeline on this chart seems to corroborate my assumption.
Except it wasn't predictable. They never thought they would lose 3 million in one quarter. That was unheard of in WoW. The most they ever lost was around 1 million between quarters and expansions.
I'm not saying flying was the sole reason for the exodus, but it was one of many.
The bump from MoP was about 1 million subs. MoP in 9 months lost 3 to 3.5 million subs...that is about 2.5 million excluding the bump. WoD started at a little over 7 million and rose to just over 10 million. In 6 months WoD fell to 6.8 million. Excluding the bump that is about .5 million people opposed to 2.5 in 9 months in MoP.
So not unheard of.
Yes it is unheard of. I posted the numbers previously but obviously need to do so again - the link above has them.
Q2 '12 - 9.1M pre-Mop
Q3 '12 - 10M so MoP jump was 0.9M
Q4 '12 - 9.6M, a 1 quarter drop of 0.4 compared to WoD's 1 quarter drop of 0.4M.
Q1 '13 - 8.3M
Q2 '13 - 7.7M so a 3 quarter drop of 2.3M, not the 3 to 3.5M you mention.
Q3 '13 - 7.6M
Q4 '13 - 7.8M
Q1 '14 - 7.6M
Q2 '14 - 6.8M
Q3 '14 - 7.4M
Q4 '14 - 10M so a jump of 2.6M
Q1 '15 - 7.1M, a drop of 2.9M. Subs post MoP eventually dropped 3.2M - after 7 quarters.
So the "excluding the bump" numbers after 1 quarter are:
MoP higher by 0.5M
WoD lower by 0.3M.
And that is all we can do; that is the like for like comparison. A 1 quarter change compared to a 1 quarter change. Doing anything else would be like comparing WoD's 2.6M jump with MoP's 8.5M jump for example; suggesting MoP was far superior. OK you have to go back to Q1 '05 to get that jump but if timescales don't matter ......
WoW subs 1 quarter after WoD are 300k lower than they were 1 quarter before WoD.
If you are excluding the bumps the numbers are not "unheard of". You are assuming that people that come back to a game for an expansion are going to stay subbed. The only numbers that matter is number before and number after excluding the bump. According to the number the people pre WoD liked the game better than people pre MoP. Less of the pre expansion numbers left WoD as left MoP. To say it is unheard of is only because of the large numbers you see, but when you put it into percentages the numbers are not much larger than many games on the market.
Comments
Many people seem to forget that GW2 lacks flying mounts, but it has many (MANY) respawn points, which you can instantly teleport between once you've discovered them.
In earlier WoW expansions, flying was restricted to max level, the idea being that you'd have to go through the content on foot and only be able to fly once you completed most of it. For some reason, in WoD they decided to not follow this trend, which might seem nice for your first playthrough, but once you've explored everything and still have 30 "fetch me a spoon" quests left, it's just tedious. It's even more tedious when your alt has to do all the exact same things...
Personally, I don't get it. Why not just tack a quest on the end of the last quest chain that rewards you with a token you can take to your garrison and use it + 25K gold to buy "Draenor Orc Camp Flying" or some such? The point is to limit flight so you have to play the content the way they designed it... once you've done that, there's no point to continuing to restrict it.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
Sure. I don't know of a waypoint-based game that doesn't work that way (they all force you to explore the next area to get each waypoint, so you always experience that first exploration of new areas.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
It is not that they don't get it .. it is that they don't like it.
A virtual world is no very fun if you have the trek the same path again, again, again and again. And there is nothing inherent about why someone cannot fly through a virtual world.
If that is what I have to do in a game, i would rather NOT have a virtual world. As many MMOs have discovered, a virtual world is not needed to a) attract players, and b) to be called a MMO.
If the expansion wasn't made for flying it would take a revamp to make it work, and it would be a lot of work. More than they will earn on selling mounts.
The problem anyways with flying mounts is while they are cool they make the game really small and make avoiding dangerous situations far too easy.I think taking them away in the new zones was the right choice.
But it is a matter of personal preferance as usual.
Works for me in chrome and mozilla ¯_(?)_/¯
The problem is that the original design of WOW has evolved too much and many elements are becoming inconsistent. And a virtual world is too much trouble than it is worth. If you let players fly, you wasted your time building the world. If you force people to walk, they complained that it is not convenient (which it is not).
In fact, Blizz got rid of this problem by making MOBAs, card games and online shooters. Why bother with virtual worlds at all?
Unfortunately, that purpose is obscured by the introduction of Garrisons. It's a kind of schizophrenic expansion that way.
Personally I feel it would work better with a teleportation system as Axehilt mentioned. But hey, i'm not Blizzard. They make the money and hold the market by the balls, so I would dare not claim to be more in tune with the market than they are.
That is the problem. A virtual world design conflicts with convenience, and sometimes gameplay. And Blizz cannot get rid of the virtual world for WOW because it is already an intergral part, and people expect it to be there.
This tug of war will continue in wow, although i think Blizz has already solved the problem in their newer games ... by not including virtual world at all.
I don't know about "more than ever before"
More like, "we are making tons of money, should we make more? yes!"
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
- Friedrich Nietzsche
If it knew it's player base so well, it wouldn't have lost almost 4 million players in WoD. Flying was a part of the reason why many people have left. They removed flying way too late over the years. It wouldn't have been so bad if they stopped adding it beyond BC.
observer, I imagine the number of subscribers jumped when WoD was released, and this is the predictable result of players (who returned for WoD) losing interest again and unsubscribing. Can you link me to the article where you read the information?
I just performed a quick search and the timeline on this chart seems to corroborate my assumption.
http://www.statista.com/statistics/276601/number-of-world-of-warcraft-subscribers-by-quarter/
I think this was big mistake from Blizzard, but even more, much more, that abomination of "new models". And they just ignore all unsatisfied customers.
Every expansion has a rise and then fall of players. WoW created the idea that an MMORPG is a game you grind to max level and destroy all the content in, and then quit till they make new content or you get bored doing daily quests or PvP has finally frustrated you enough to stop. Blizzard has charts and graphs and data, they wouldnt have done it, or stuck with it, if it was really hurting them. I see lots of you talking about how not having flying mounts made you quit, but I imagine most of you would have quit in another month or two anyway once you did the stuff and toured the theme park. Not having flying mounts makes world pvp an option, makes so many things an option, and makes me happy. Im actually thinking about giving it a go again, people tell me it sucks less now if you want something more like vanilla WoW or a challenge. I think in the long run the people who really love WoW are gonna keep playing, just like people still play EQ, some people are never gonna stop or give up on the investment they have already made. Other people are always gonna resub and do the content, then quit. Other people might be interested enough to try it again or give it a go if blizzard makes changes.
I remember world pvp you could not escape from, world pvp taking over entire zones in WoW. Not just some troll flying in and killing you and flying away but rather groups raiding areas and other groups hunting them and having huge fights going all over the zone... Idk flying seems to screw that up for me and makes questing less fun even...
Maybe Im wrong but if WoW makes it so you have to play the game more, interact with the world more, and creates more chances for players to interact outside quick content you access via a LFG tool, it will make it a better game and allow it to live even longer... Blizzards logic has always been to make money, as much money as possible. I imagine this change had that in mind as well and I imagine in the long run people will appreciate living in a world more then flying mounts/convenience features. After all if you just want to do content or pvp, why not play a single player rpg or moba, MMORPGs are about the world and the people in the long run...
Except it wasn't predictable. They never thought they would lose 3 million in one quarter. That was unheard of in WoW. The most they ever lost was around 1 million between quarters and expansions.
I'm not saying flying was the sole reason for the exodus, but it was one of many.
Umm 2.9 million is now "almost 4 million"? Based on this comment it's safe to say the credibility of your post is subject.No flying and garrisons could just be two totally non joined up ideas and there is no logic other than Blizzard doing what will appeal to the most people for the longest time (i.e. make the most money).
Alternatively the two are connected. Removal of flying means it takes people longer to complete quests / go places; added grind in other words. And garrisons .... add grind. So it is possible that the two are driven by the same aim: get people who bought the expansion to subscribe for longer than "30 days" post release.
The bump from MoP was about 1 million subs. MoP in 9 months lost 3 to 3.5 million subs...that is about 2.5 million excluding the bump. WoD started at a little over 7 million and rose to just over 10 million. In 6 months WoD fell to 6.8 million. Excluding the bump that is about .5 million people opposed to 2.5 in 9 months in MoP.
So not unheard of.
Ion Hazzikostas is going to end up losing his job over this IMVHO.
It is a shame because he is a talented raid designer.
Yes it is unheard of. I posted the numbers previously but obviously need to do so again - the link above has them.
If you are excluding the bumps the numbers are not "unheard of". You are assuming that people that come back to a game for an expansion are going to stay subbed. The only numbers that matter is number before and number after excluding the bump. According to the number the people pre WoD liked the game better than people pre MoP. Less of the pre expansion numbers left WoD as left MoP. To say it is unheard of is only because of the large numbers you see, but when you put it into percentages the numbers are not much larger than many games on the market.