@MikeB Here's the thing, the Final Fantasy Online games (both 11 and 14) has never just let someone come in and pick any class/job they wanted, and it fits the Final Fantasy style admirably. Kind of like a "paying your dues" experience. As a player who has leveled up every class; combat, crafting and gathering alike, I'd be offended if a person who just started the game was able to taken on any of the new classes without experiencing the game at all. Honestly, this game has so much to it and you should want to experience it all and not just rush through and have the newest and shiny things without feeling you earned it.
No it's not. Final Fantasy jrpgs don't make you do that at all. Final Fantasy games, except for their grindy timesink mmos, have never been about paying your dues to get into the cool kids club. That's just their mmo thing and probably why their mmos are not very popular with the rest of the FF fanbase.
In Final Fantasy games where there are Job Crystals, grind was very much a part of it if you wanted to feel "powerful". You also had to find crystals with said job types. The newer age Final Fantasy games somewhat left out jobs, but even then -- as we see in FFVII -- there was a level grind to do various content or even get past a certain boss that smashed you (as well as grinding a Gold Chocobo and getting Knights of the Round). It is even more relevant in FFVIII with its magic infusion system and trying to beat the final boss.
Originally posted by Markn Only reason I cannot play the game is because of it.
Which is perfectly okay and a valid reason to complain if you want to play the game, but can't because life gets in the way. Indeed, no doubt they would get more players if they made certain aspects more solo friendly. Luckily, they are doing just this (no real details exposed other than saying they are) in that you might be able to do Story Dungeons solo or with just one other person (might even be able to bring your chocobo in there). It's one of the only MMOs on the market that really makes you work for things at the moment. But if it is a case of simply being too lazy to accomplish something, then that's a different story entirely.
Originally posted by Bitrip
Originally posted by Moondrift
Originally posted by Bitrip
Originally posted by Moondrift
Originally posted by Nephaerius
There's never been anyone who is a pure gatherer/crafter. You were always required to level a job to 50 in order to be able to access all crafting and gathering. Expansion is no different.
The amount of story content required does not take that long. In 6 weeks of casual play I have managed to finish the 2.0 storyline as a 50 SCH/SMN, 34 WHM, 26 Tham. So all I have left is 2.0-2.55.
There are plenty of people running old content. I have no problem doing low level duty roulettes daily. Shortest queues on SCH/WHM - instantaneous; longest queue on DPS - 30ish min on avg. I have encountered 0 road blocks due to a lack of people while leveling up.
I believe the new jobs aren't available at character creation because you automatically start at level 30 which runs contrary to the argument that they should be available to new players.
Never thought I'd enjoy this title. Always avoided it. Picked it up on a whim. Massively enjoyable.
My husband and I have no issues with any of the leveling instances at all. Most of the time we put our 2 man party up if we dont have other friends of FC members going at that time up in Party Finder and have a full group within 5 minutes. The PROBLEM is today too many people play MMOs SOLO and expect 15 minute or less queues. Sorry FFXIV is not that game. You make your Queue shorter by making friends and queueing as a group OR use PF and make a premade group. There are a lot of people who refuse to use DF for everything and most of mine and my husband's groups have been PF groups or Premade. Though we used DF for less than 10 instances vs the near 50 or over 50 we ran. Yes we love our dungeons and run with friends and FC members. We only Solo (the 2 of us) queued recently for the last 3 trials in 2.1+ Mog king, Lev, and Ramuh and never had to wait more than 15 mins.
You sure are entitled for someone who has a permenant +1 at all times. Most people do play MMOs these days solo, so the solo queue times are unacceptable. We get what you're saying but you really don't need to comment on everyone's post stating they should queue with someone else to shorten times. Not very many of us have that luxury.
That is your problem if you are playing an MMO solo. Go play a single player game if you want to go Solo. Otherwise do not complain. There are hundreds of players going as groups having NO problem with Queues or finding people. Its the SOLO MMO player that is the issue. FFXIV IS NOT SOLO friendly.
Yep you're totally right. FFXIV should not cater to solo players in the slightest, because they aren't a significant percentage of the population. /facepalm
EDIT: All I am trying to say is just because you don't have a queue time problem, don't short change other people because the struggle is real for the rest of us...
I have roughly a 15-20 minute queue as a DPS at the moment. While normally I play tanks or healers, I don't find tanks to be enjoyable in this game. Hoping this changes with Dark Knight and the faster Global Cooldown with the updated skill speed system. That said, they are working on making story dungeons require only one or two people to complete for older content in the expansion. Some people "preparing" now are doing so to experience the game how 2.0 was before 3.0 makes old content more accessible as a whole.
Originally posted by JeroKane
Originally posted by Moondrift
Originally posted by Kajidourden
Originally posted by Moondrift
The amount of quests from 2.0 to 2.55 is not the problem! I gladly do them and love doing them! It's all the "forced" Dungeons and trials that are attached to it that are the problem!
It's stopping me right now and I am unable to progress and get ready for the expansion!
Hopefully the changes (detailed above) will help you out! Plus, you'll even get experience from them if you wait since the level cap will be increased.
Originally posted by MikeB
Originally posted by Dr_Shivinski
Originally posted by MikeB My issue is with the fact the new jobs can only be unlocked through the expansion content instead of being available for play at character creation. If I'm a new player and I finally broke down and bought the game because I wanted to play X job from the expansion, the notion that I need to level up some job I don't care about all the way to Ishgard before I can even play the one I want is what's off-putting for me.
These jobs were always meant to start at level 30. Giving new players access to a free level 30 seems a bit goofy to me.
So start the jobs at level 1? They already did this with Ninja (Rogue). The new jobs should have followed the same format. Forcing me to play through a metric ton of content on a class I don't care about isn't very appealing. I don't agree with people who think the barrier is too steep because they need to complete the story to get to Ishgard. I don't mind doing that. I just want to do it on a class I like.
This will end up being a dealbreaker for a lot of people who are only just now interested in the game at all because the jobs they're adding are the ones that appeal to them. Maybe I waited on playing FFXIV until my favorite class (let's say, Dark Knight) was added. Woot! Now it's here! Oh wait, I can't actually play this until I take some other class through the entire game and then into the expansion? I don't really think this is a defensible position. It's an unforced error that will cost them potentially new customers for really no upshot that I can think of.
Good criticism and reasoning.
The main reasons they did this are as follows (not that precedence does not hold any validity or point in itself):
Deletion of classes: Square no longer wants there to be 1-30 base classes (Gladiator - Paladin) and instead and Jobs to start at level 30 (where they would turn into such). This allows for them to focus more on new abilities (current and future classes), make more jobs (in general, especially since they don't have to worry about 1-30 quests and cross-class balancing in the future) and have a single storyline for a Job (rather than simple a rogue becoming a Ninja). One could definitely assert that Dark Knight could just start at level 1 and never get an advanced job, as it is one. Though keeping with the theme with each class, I view they wanted to take lore over playability in that Dark knights are supposed to be powerful -- so starting at level 30 makes sense in the world.
Taking out some grind: Advanced Jobs are typically unlocked at level 30 for both FFXI and FFXIV. So in keeping with the theme of taking out classes, one would've had to level to at least 30 anyway before becoming a Dark Knight (if they were just a soldier class or something). It was decided then, that since many players have multiple level 50s already -- and have been through a lot of grind -- that the "hellish grind" will be cut in half for players that unlock the Dark Knight. It is a reward -- a part of an attunement like most of the game has -- for those who have made it to level 50. Yoshi-P wanted to make sure long time players did not have to grin 1-30 again for a new class; the exact number wasn't determined likely until they also put into stone that base classes will no longer be a part of the game going forward (aside from the core base classes you pick from, as was the case with FFXI whereby you only have six classes to start with and unlocked 20+ more in game).
Precedence: Rogue / Ninja can't be made on the character creation screen. You had to be level 10 (in some cases, level 15 if you didn't start in Limsa), and then you could unlock it. I would concur that it might be better to allow people to create it in the character creation in the first place if the restrictions were so limited.
I agree with the lore reasons and the ideas of the team, but also the point that people might be turned off if they actually have to work towards a goal. Personally, I like earning things -- the feeling it gets. Reminds me much of my Ultima Online days and Vanilla WoW. But many people don't have time for that. Indeed, some do not want to put in the time for a class they might not even like (granted, though, that there are many, many other classes to choose from).
To show my own appreciation for those who want access to it all immediately, I have multiple characters that I play across several accounts. Only on about two of them have I completed the main story (2.55). The ones I intend to Role Play on or make my mains next expansion haven't even finished 2.1 yet; a couple of my legacy characters with multiple 50s haven't even started the main storyline, and one of them I want to be a Dark Knight on.
I would LOVE to be able to do it right away. In that light, I would say that simply getting to level 30 and then being able to unlock new classes is a nice compromise. However, as it stands, I believe Heavesward content is needed due to spoilers and the guilds likely being located in Ishgard.
Originally posted by justinsalesart
I keep it on the rotation BECAUSE it has so much story content.
It's awesome how each time I resub I have a ton more to do.
Enjoy the game buffet, fellas. And stop piling your plates full of mac and cheese.
That's one of the main reasons I play, as well! If something isn't allowed, it's likely due to storyline. In that light, I'm fairly sure Dark Knight, Machinist and Astrologian have story that contains spoilers to the main storyline prior to them being playable.
Originally posted by Divinion
Originally posted by Torval
Originally posted by Divinion
@MikeB Here's the thing, the Final Fantasy Online games (both 11 and 14) has never just let someone come in and pick any class/job they wanted, and it fits the Final Fantasy style admirably. Kind of like a "paying your dues" experience. As a player who has leveled up every class; combat, crafting and gathering alike, I'd be offended if a person who just started the game was able to taken on any of the new classes without experiencing the game at all. Honestly, this game has so much to it and you should want to experience it all and not just rush through and have the newest and shiny things without feeling you earned it.
No it's not. Final Fantasy jrpgs don't make you do that at all. Final Fantasy games, except for their grindy timesink mmos, have never been about paying your dues to get into the cool kids club. That's just their mmo thing and probably why their mmos are not very popular with the rest of the FF fanbase.
I take it you have not played ANY of the single player Final Fantasy titles with the Jobs system in them. Probably the most popular title would be Final Fantasy Tactics would be the best example. You don't just go and say I want to a Ninja, and bam your a Ninja. You have to first level Archer to 3, Thief to 4 and Geomancer to 2 (which means you would have leveled Squire to 2 to unlock Knight, then that to 2 to unlock Monk, and that to 3 to unlock Geomancer.)
I'm sorry for not specifying the Final Fantasy Job System Style when I stated Final Fantasy Style and opened it up to misinterpretation. However, you come off as very hostile and negative about the online Final Fantasy games, which makes me feel that you have not played the game, or at least have not played the game to level 50 on at least 1 combat class. The whole "grindy timesink" comment is truly one of the most ignorant things I have seen about Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn. I can see it with Final Fantasy 11. I can even especially see it with Final Fantasy XIV 1.0's garbage release, but not ARR at all. Especially with the enhanced dungeon exp and duty roulette bonus exp (when not max level) included in the earlier content patches.
Touched on this above, but reading this might've caused me to remember such and write about it myself, so I'm quoting it to make sure credit is given where it is due.
In these types of Final Fantasy games -- the online ones in particular -- this is normal. It very much is in the same vein as other Final Fantasy Titles, even if not all of them. Still has that Final Fantasy crystal vibe to it that few can deny in that light.
Originally posted by MikeB
Originally posted by Divinion
Originally posted by Torval
Originally posted by Divinion
@MikeB Here's the thing, the Final Fantasy Online games (both 11 and 14) has never just let someone come in and pick any class/job they wanted, and it fits the Final Fantasy style admirably. Kind of like a "paying your dues" experience. As a player who has leveled up every class; combat, crafting and gathering alike, I'd be offended if a person who just started the game was able to taken on any of the new classes without experiencing the game at all. Honestly, this game has so much to it and you should want to experience it all and not just rush through and have the newest and shiny things without feeling you earned it.
No it's not. Final Fantasy jrpgs don't make you do that at all. Final Fantasy games, except for their grindy timesink mmos, have never been about paying your dues to get into the cool kids club. That's just their mmo thing and probably why their mmos are not very popular with the rest of the FF fanbase.
I take it you have not played ANY of the single player Final Fantasy titles with the Jobs system in them. Probably the most popular title would be Final Fantasy Tactics would be the best example. You don't just go and say I want to a Ninja, and bam your a Ninja. You have to first level Archer to 3, Thief to 4 and Geomancer to 2 (which means you would have leveled Squire to 2 to unlock Knight, then that to 2 to unlock Monk, and that to 3 to unlock Geomancer.)
But that's not what's going on here. They're just being arbitrarily content gated. This isn't a matter of you need to level A job to B level plus C job to D level. They're standalone jobs without any requirements other than an arbitrary content gate. Unlocking said gate will take a new player a very significant time and effort investment to get through while playing a job they may not necessarily be interested in. Again, precedent was set with Ninja (which is amusing given your choice of example!). They could have and should have done it exactly the same way they did Ninja, with the only difference being you need to own the expansion to play the job at all.
It honestly seems like they designed these jobs with only existing level capped players in mind when it came to the unlock requirements. If I'm already a level 50 Dragoon, I'm generally not going to mind a whole lot that I just need to play the new content to unlock one of the new jobs. It sounds reasonable to me. However, if I'm a player that's new to FFXIV altogether and learning about Heavensward is what got me interested in checking the game out to begin with, I'm going to be pretty bummed out to learn that I need to play through the entire game as a different job entirely before I can even check out any of the expansion exclusive jobs, especially if one of these jobs is the primary reason I became interested in playing in the first place.
We actually do not know if we need classes leveled to unlock Dark Knight. For all we know, we might need a 30 Warrior and a 15 Thaumaturge to get the questline to be able to tank and use dark magic. Given that the game is mainly based on lore and story, this may actually be the case.
They probably did add classes with existing players in mind -- and something that new players can work towards. The assertion that new players might be discouraged is reasonable and displays overall concern for the game's health. Though some may even be driven at that moment; to work towards something as they did in FFXI and then have that memory. Which in turn will give nostalgia for said game and hinder thoughts of wanting to quit -- much like people don't want to leave WoW due to time investment, even if everything is handed to you nowadays (or available via buying gold now).
I believe your concern is moreso for the people rather than the game (not that it can't be both!) in this light. Which is completely what I would expect from someone who is supposed to keep the consumer in mind as part of his job (while also being concerned with the growth of the site). I'm a consumerist myself and find myself oft conflicted with a rare game that requires work vs. people with lives who can't enjoy something if it's too hard. In one case, it's pretty much the only thing left of its kind. On the other... yeah.
Originally posted by Zarriya
Originally posted by MikeB
Originally posted by Divinion
Originally posted by Torval
Originally posted by Divinion
@MikeB Here's the thing, the Final Fantasy Online games (both 11 and 14) has never just let someone come in and pick any class/job they wanted, and it fits the Final Fantasy style admirably. Kind of like a "paying your dues" experience. As a player who has leveled up every class; combat, crafting and gathering alike, I'd be offended if a person who just started the game was able to taken on any of the new classes without experiencing the game at all. Honestly, this game has so much to it and you should want to experience it all and not just rush through and have the newest and shiny things without feeling you earned it.
No it's not. Final Fantasy jrpgs don't make you do that at all. Final Fantasy games, except for their grindy timesink mmos, have never been about paying your dues to get into the cool kids club. That's just their mmo thing and probably why their mmos are not very popular with the rest of the FF fanbase.
I take it you have not played ANY of the single player Final Fantasy titles with the Jobs system in them. Probably the most popular title would be Final Fantasy Tactics would be the best example. You don't just go and say I want to a Ninja, and bam your a Ninja. You have to first level Archer to 3, Thief to 4 and Geomancer to 2 (which means you would have leveled Squire to 2 to unlock Knight, then that to 2 to unlock Monk, and that to 3 to unlock Geomancer.)
But that's not what's going on here. They're just being arbitrarily content gated. This isn't a matter of you need to level A job to B level plus C job to D level. They're standalone jobs without any requirements other than an arbitrary content gate. Unlocking said gate will take a new player a very significant time and effort investment to get through while playing a job they may not necessarily be interested in. Again, precedent was set with Ninja (which is amusing given your choice of example!). They could have and should have done it exactly the same way they did Ninja, with the only difference being you need to own the expansion to play the job at all.
It honestly seems like they designed these jobs with only existing level capped players in mind when it came to the unlock requirements. If I'm already a level 50 Dragoon, I'm generally not going to mind a whole lot that I just need to play the new content to unlock one of the new jobs. It sounds reasonable to me. However, if I'm a player that's new to FFXIV altogether and learning about Heavensward is what got me interested in checking the game out to begin with, I'm going to be pretty bummed out to learn that I need to play through the entire game as a different job entirely before I can even check out any of the expansion exclusive jobs, especially if one of these jobs is the primary reason I became interested in playing in the first place.
Why not see the job unlocks as a reward that needs to be earned. One part of the fun of mmos is earning stuff. A core of the fun of FFXIV is leveling multiple classes.
Yes, IMO FFXIV is doing the right thing.
I agree 90% with this; there is a nagging feeling that I want as many people as possible who love Final Fantasy to be able to play it to their hearts content if it's a matter of having busy lives and not just being lazy. Granted, we do know the base game will be easier to get through come expansion. And the storyline, community and massive updates should be the main reason why people play, considering the game's namesake.
Originally posted by NightHaveN I don't play currently this game. But I'm adult enough to understand there are different points of view. And if Square Enix decided to go a more story oriented and actually require completion of that previous story to unlock the new one and differ themselves from other MMO where there is no barrier, and no point getting certain gear IMO is good for them.
How many times people keep telling old content in other games gets obsolete and irrelevant. This is a way to make everything relevant.
Also a good way to take those part timers reach to cap, then jump game players out of the equation.
This may backfire, or may not. But grats to them for being different.
I could see the idea of not purposely locking classes behind storyline as being beneficial to new players. They could've made sure there were no spoilers, I guess. Perhaps have a temporary guild elsewhere until you got to Ishgard. Maybe a teleport ability / new airship to the guild whereby you weren't allowed to leave it until you became strong enough (just get sent back when done via airship or something). Then again, their quests probably deal with level 30-60 monsters as a whole and are located outside of the guild.
I also enjoy that they're different in this, requiring hard work for something that may be desired.
Due to frequent travel in my youth, English isn't something I consider my primary language (and thus I obtained quirky ways of writing). German and French were always easier for me despite my family being U.S. citizens for over a century. Spanish I learned as a requirement in school, Japanese and Korean I acquired for my youthful desire of anime and gaming (and also work now). I only debate in English to help me work with it (and limit things). In addition, I'm not smart enough to remain fluent in everything and typically need exposure to get in the groove of things again if I haven't heard it in a while. If you understand Mandarin, I know a little, but it has actually been a challenge and could use some help.
Also, I thoroughly enjoy debates and have accounts on over a dozen sites for this. If you wish to engage in such, please put effort in a post and provide sources -- I will then do the same with what I already wrote (if I didn't) as well as with my responses to your own. Expanding my information on a subject makes my stance either change or strengthen the next time I speak of it or write a thesis. Allow me to thank you sincerely for your time.
I think gating the content makes sense from a narrative stand point. However, from a MMO perspective, it doesn't really.
With that said, the dev team has been making requirements to play through 2.55 more and more accessible with each patch. I imagine that trend will continue after the expansion pack launches.
Being that this expansion brings 50-60 content, make no mistake that this expansion is geared for current FF14 players, and from that stand point, the gating of some content doesn't seem so out of place.
For those that still have his/her panties tied up in a bunch, give Yoshida and his team some time. They have proven that they willing to iterate on their own designs to best suit the playerbase. If the gating turns out to be a truly bad idea, they will make amends and pretty quickly at that.
If you were only interested in jumping in to the game now because of any of the new classes, odds are the game isn't for you anyways. If it was, you would have already invested quite a bit of time in the game by now.
I suppose it's one way to keep the new zones from getting utterly crushed - only X amount can enter, and the best part, it's *your* "fault" if you can't on day 1. A bit of Lawful Evil genius to me.
SE constantly ease and remove the gates with updates, so I think at some point this gate will get easier or removed too.
Haven't really thought of it like this before, but it's essentially true.
It also leads me to what my old self would've said back in the day and before all this easy "hand them everything" stuff.
"You have to be pretty full of yourself to expect to join something that people have played 18 months for and instantly have access to everything they do." The so-called barriers aside, part of me still believes this as all I'm seeing are demands and people saying they don't have time or don't want to. Sad state of MMO gaming if I've become so used to this that I partially supported such.
Due to frequent travel in my youth, English isn't something I consider my primary language (and thus I obtained quirky ways of writing). German and French were always easier for me despite my family being U.S. citizens for over a century. Spanish I learned as a requirement in school, Japanese and Korean I acquired for my youthful desire of anime and gaming (and also work now). I only debate in English to help me work with it (and limit things). In addition, I'm not smart enough to remain fluent in everything and typically need exposure to get in the groove of things again if I haven't heard it in a while. If you understand Mandarin, I know a little, but it has actually been a challenge and could use some help.
Also, I thoroughly enjoy debates and have accounts on over a dozen sites for this. If you wish to engage in such, please put effort in a post and provide sources -- I will then do the same with what I already wrote (if I didn't) as well as with my responses to your own. Expanding my information on a subject makes my stance either change or strengthen the next time I speak of it or write a thesis. Allow me to thank you sincerely for your time.
I suppose it's one way to keep the new zones from getting utterly crushed - only X amount can enter, and the best part, it's *your* "fault" if you can't on day 1. A bit of Lawful Evil genius to me.
SE constantly ease and remove the gates with updates, so I think at some point this gate will get easier or removed too.
Haven't really thought of it like this before, but it's essentially true.
It also leads me to what my old self would've said back in the day and before all this easy "hand them everything" stuff.
"You have to be pretty full of yourself to expect to join something that people have played 18 months for and instantly have access to everything they do." The so-called barriers aside, part of me still believes this as all I'm seeing are demands and people saying they don't have time or don't want to. Sad state of MMO gaming if I've become so used to this that I partially supported such.
Couldn't agree more. Heavensward definitely is a modern/contemporary MMO Expansion for sure. Most of the content being added straight to the top of the game.
An older MMO would typically add a whole new set of newbie to max level content, a new race or two, and a new class/skill or two...
@MikeB Here's the thing, the Final Fantasy Online games (both 11 and 14) has never just let someone come in and pick any class/job they wanted, and it fits the Final Fantasy style admirably. Kind of like a "paying your dues" experience. As a player who has leveled up every class; combat, crafting and gathering alike, I'd be offended if a person who just started the game was able to taken on any of the new classes without experiencing the game at all. Honestly, this game has so much to it and you should want to experience it all and not just rush through and have the newest and shiny things without feeling you earned it.
No it's not. Final Fantasy jrpgs don't make you do that at all. Final Fantasy games, except for their grindy timesink mmos, have never been about paying your dues to get into the cool kids club. That's just their mmo thing and probably why their mmos are not very popular with the rest of the FF fanbase.
In Final Fantasy games where there are Job Crystals, grind was very much a part of it if you wanted to feel "powerful". You also had to find crystals with said job types. The newer age Final Fantasy games somewhat left out jobs, but even then -- as we see in FFVII -- there was a level grind to do various content or even get past a certain boss that smashed you (as well as grinding a Gold Chocobo and getting Knights of the Round). It is even more relevant in FFVIII with its magic infusion system and trying to beat the final boss.
Originally posted by Markn Only reason I cannot play the game is because of it.
Which is perfectly okay and a valid reason to complain if you want to play the game, but can't because life gets in the way. Indeed, no doubt they would get more players if they made certain aspects more solo friendly. Luckily, they are doing just this (no real details exposed other than saying they are) in that you might be able to do Story Dungeons solo or with just one other person (might even be able to bring your chocobo in there). It's one of the only MMOs on the market that really makes you work for things at the moment. But if it is a case of simply being too lazy to accomplish something, then that's a different story entirely.
Originally posted by Bitrip
Originally posted by Moondrift
Originally posted by Bitrip
Originally posted by Moondrift
Originally posted by Nephaerius
There's never been anyone who is a pure gatherer/crafter. You were always required to level a job to 50 in order to be able to access all crafting and gathering. Expansion is no different.
The amount of story content required does not take that long. In 6 weeks of casual play I have managed to finish the 2.0 storyline as a 50 SCH/SMN, 34 WHM, 26 Tham. So all I have left is 2.0-2.55.
There are plenty of people running old content. I have no problem doing low level duty roulettes daily. Shortest queues on SCH/WHM - instantaneous; longest queue on DPS - 30ish min on avg. I have encountered 0 road blocks due to a lack of people while leveling up.
I believe the new jobs aren't available at character creation because you automatically start at level 30 which runs contrary to the argument that they should be available to new players.
Never thought I'd enjoy this title. Always avoided it. Picked it up on a whim. Massively enjoyable.
My husband and I have no issues with any of the leveling instances at all. Most of the time we put our 2 man party up if we dont have other friends of FC members going at that time up in Party Finder and have a full group within 5 minutes. The PROBLEM is today too many people play MMOs SOLO and expect 15 minute or less queues. Sorry FFXIV is not that game. You make your Queue shorter by making friends and queueing as a group OR use PF and make a premade group. There are a lot of people who refuse to use DF for everything and most of mine and my husband's groups have been PF groups or Premade. Though we used DF for less than 10 instances vs the near 50 or over 50 we ran. Yes we love our dungeons and run with friends and FC members. We only Solo (the 2 of us) queued recently for the last 3 trials in 2.1+ Mog king, Lev, and Ramuh and never had to wait more than 15 mins.
You sure are entitled for someone who has a permenant +1 at all times. Most people do play MMOs these days solo, so the solo queue times are unacceptable. We get what you're saying but you really don't need to comment on everyone's post stating they should queue with someone else to shorten times. Not very many of us have that luxury.
That is your problem if you are playing an MMO solo. Go play a single player game if you want to go Solo. Otherwise do not complain. There are hundreds of players going as groups having NO problem with Queues or finding people. Its the SOLO MMO player that is the issue. FFXIV IS NOT SOLO friendly.
Yep you're totally right. FFXIV should not cater to solo players in the slightest, because they aren't a significant percentage of the population. /facepalm
EDIT: All I am trying to say is just because you don't have a queue time problem, don't short change other people because the struggle is real for the rest of us...
I have roughly a 15-20 minute queue as a DPS at the moment. While normally I play tanks or healers, I don't find tanks to be enjoyable in this game. Hoping this changes with Dark Knight and the faster Global Cooldown with the updated skill speed system. That said, they are working on making story dungeons require only one or two people to complete for older content in the expansion. Some people "preparing" now are doing so to experience the game how 2.0 was before 3.0 makes old content more accessible as a whole.
Originally posted by JeroKane
Originally posted by Moondrift
Originally posted by Kajidourden
Originally posted by Moondrift
The amount of quests from 2.0 to 2.55 is not the problem! I gladly do them and love doing them! It's all the "forced" Dungeons and trials that are attached to it that are the problem!
It's stopping me right now and I am unable to progress and get ready for the expansion!
Hopefully the changes (detailed above) will help you out! Plus, you'll even get experience from them if you wait since the level cap will be increased.
Originally posted by MikeB
Originally posted by Dr_Shivinski
Originally posted by MikeB My issue is with the fact the new jobs can only be unlocked through the expansion content instead of being available for play at character creation. If I'm a new player and I finally broke down and bought the game because I wanted to play X job from the expansion, the notion that I need to level up some job I don't care about all the way to Ishgard before I can even play the one I want is what's off-putting for me.
These jobs were always meant to start at level 30. Giving new players access to a free level 30 seems a bit goofy to me.
So start the jobs at level 1? They already did this with Ninja (Rogue). The new jobs should have followed the same format. Forcing me to play through a metric ton of content on a class I don't care about isn't very appealing. I don't agree with people who think the barrier is too steep because they need to complete the story to get to Ishgard. I don't mind doing that. I just want to do it on a class I like.
This will end up being a dealbreaker for a lot of people who are only just now interested in the game at all because the jobs they're adding are the ones that appeal to them. Maybe I waited on playing FFXIV until my favorite class (let's say, Dark Knight) was added. Woot! Now it's here! Oh wait, I can't actually play this until I take some other class through the entire game and then into the expansion? I don't really think this is a defensible position. It's an unforced error that will cost them potentially new customers for really no upshot that I can think of.
Good criticism and reasoning.
The main reasons they did this are as follows (not that precedence does not hold any validity or point in itself):
Deletion of classes: Square no longer wants there to be 1-30 base classes (Gladiator - Paladin) and instead and Jobs to start at level 30 (where they would turn into such). This allows for them to focus more on new abilities (current and future classes), make more jobs (in general, especially since they don't have to worry about 1-30 quests and cross-class balancing in the future) and have a single storyline for a Job (rather than simple a rogue becoming a Ninja). One could definitely assert that Dark Knight could just start at level 1 and never get an advanced job, as it is one. Though keeping with the theme with each class, I view they wanted to take lore over playability in that Dark knights are supposed to be powerful -- so starting at level 30 makes sense in the world.
Taking out some grind: Advanced Jobs are typically unlocked at level 30 for both FFXI and FFXIV. So in keeping with the theme of taking out classes, one would've had to level to at least 30 anyway before becoming a Dark Knight (if they were just a soldier class or something). It was decided then, that since many players have multiple level 50s already -- and have been through a lot of grind -- that the "hellish grind" will be cut in half for players that unlock the Dark Knight. It is a reward -- a part of an attunement like most of the game has -- for those who have made it to level 50. Yoshi-P wanted to make sure long time players did not have to grin 1-30 again for a new class; the exact number wasn't determined likely until they also put into stone that base classes will no longer be a part of the game going forward (aside from the core base classes you pick from, as was the case with FFXI whereby you only have six classes to start with and unlocked 20+ more in game).
Precedence: Rogue / Ninja can't be made on the character creation screen. You had to be level 10 (in some cases, level 15 if you didn't start in Limsa), and then you could unlock it. I would concur that it might be better to allow people to create it in the character creation in the first place if the restrictions were so limited.
I agree with the lore reasons and the ideas of the team, but also the point that people might be turned off if they actually have to work towards a goal. Personally, I like earning things -- the feeling it gets. Reminds me much of my Ultima Online days and Vanilla WoW. But many people don't have time for that. Indeed, some do not want to put in the time for a class they might not even like (granted, though, that there are many, many other classes to choose from).
To show my own appreciation for those who want access to it all immediately, I have multiple characters that I play across several accounts. Only on about two of them have I completed the main story (2.55). The ones I intend to Role Play on or make my mains next expansion haven't even finished 2.1 yet; a couple of my legacy characters with multiple 50s haven't even started the main storyline, and one of them I want to be a Dark Knight on.
I would LOVE to be able to do it right away. In that light, I would say that simply getting to level 30 and then being able to unlock new classes is a nice compromise. However, as it stands, I believe Heavesward content is needed due to spoilers and the guilds likely being located in Ishgard.
Originally posted by justinsalesart
I keep it on the rotation BECAUSE it has so much story content.
It's awesome how each time I resub I have a ton more to do.
Enjoy the game buffet, fellas. And stop piling your plates full of mac and cheese.
That's one of the main reasons I play, as well! If something isn't allowed, it's likely due to storyline. In that light, I'm fairly sure Dark Knight, Machinist and Astrologian have story that contains spoilers to the main storyline prior to them being playable.
Originally posted by Divinion
Originally posted by Torval
Originally posted by Divinion
@MikeB Here's the thing, the Final Fantasy Online games (both 11 and 14) has never just let someone come in and pick any class/job they wanted, and it fits the Final Fantasy style admirably. Kind of like a "paying your dues" experience. As a player who has leveled up every class; combat, crafting and gathering alike, I'd be offended if a person who just started the game was able to taken on any of the new classes without experiencing the game at all. Honestly, this game has so much to it and you should want to experience it all and not just rush through and have the newest and shiny things without feeling you earned it.
No it's not. Final Fantasy jrpgs don't make you do that at all. Final Fantasy games, except for their grindy timesink mmos, have never been about paying your dues to get into the cool kids club. That's just their mmo thing and probably why their mmos are not very popular with the rest of the FF fanbase.
I take it you have not played ANY of the single player Final Fantasy titles with the Jobs system in them. Probably the most popular title would be Final Fantasy Tactics would be the best example. You don't just go and say I want to a Ninja, and bam your a Ninja. You have to first level Archer to 3, Thief to 4 and Geomancer to 2 (which means you would have leveled Squire to 2 to unlock Knight, then that to 2 to unlock Monk, and that to 3 to unlock Geomancer.)
I'm sorry for not specifying the Final Fantasy Job System Style when I stated Final Fantasy Style and opened it up to misinterpretation. However, you come off as very hostile and negative about the online Final Fantasy games, which makes me feel that you have not played the game, or at least have not played the game to level 50 on at least 1 combat class. The whole "grindy timesink" comment is truly one of the most ignorant things I have seen about Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn. I can see it with Final Fantasy 11. I can even especially see it with Final Fantasy XIV 1.0's garbage release, but not ARR at all. Especially with the enhanced dungeon exp and duty roulette bonus exp (when not max level) included in the earlier content patches.
Touched on this above, but reading this might've caused me to remember such and write about it myself, so I'm quoting it to make sure credit is given where it is due.
In these types of Final Fantasy games -- the online ones in particular -- this is normal. It very much is in the same vein as other Final Fantasy Titles, even if not all of them. Still has that Final Fantasy crystal vibe to it that few can deny in that light.
Originally posted by MikeB
Originally posted by Divinion
Originally posted by Torval
Originally posted by Divinion
@MikeB Here's the thing, the Final Fantasy Online games (both 11 and 14) has never just let someone come in and pick any class/job they wanted, and it fits the Final Fantasy style admirably. Kind of like a "paying your dues" experience. As a player who has leveled up every class; combat, crafting and gathering alike, I'd be offended if a person who just started the game was able to taken on any of the new classes without experiencing the game at all. Honestly, this game has so much to it and you should want to experience it all and not just rush through and have the newest and shiny things without feeling you earned it.
No it's not. Final Fantasy jrpgs don't make you do that at all. Final Fantasy games, except for their grindy timesink mmos, have never been about paying your dues to get into the cool kids club. That's just their mmo thing and probably why their mmos are not very popular with the rest of the FF fanbase.
I take it you have not played ANY of the single player Final Fantasy titles with the Jobs system in them. Probably the most popular title would be Final Fantasy Tactics would be the best example. You don't just go and say I want to a Ninja, and bam your a Ninja. You have to first level Archer to 3, Thief to 4 and Geomancer to 2 (which means you would have leveled Squire to 2 to unlock Knight, then that to 2 to unlock Monk, and that to 3 to unlock Geomancer.)
But that's not what's going on here. They're just being arbitrarily content gated. This isn't a matter of you need to level A job to B level plus C job to D level. They're standalone jobs without any requirements other than an arbitrary content gate. Unlocking said gate will take a new player a very significant time and effort investment to get through while playing a job they may not necessarily be interested in. Again, precedent was set with Ninja (which is amusing given your choice of example!). They could have and should have done it exactly the same way they did Ninja, with the only difference being you need to own the expansion to play the job at all.
It honestly seems like they designed these jobs with only existing level capped players in mind when it came to the unlock requirements. If I'm already a level 50 Dragoon, I'm generally not going to mind a whole lot that I just need to play the new content to unlock one of the new jobs. It sounds reasonable to me. However, if I'm a player that's new to FFXIV altogether and learning about Heavensward is what got me interested in checking the game out to begin with, I'm going to be pretty bummed out to learn that I need to play through the entire game as a different job entirely before I can even check out any of the expansion exclusive jobs, especially if one of these jobs is the primary reason I became interested in playing in the first place.
We actually do not know if we need classes leveled to unlock Dark Knight. For all we know, we might need a 30 Warrior and a 15 Thaumaturge to get the questline to be able to tank and use dark magic. Given that the game is mainly based on lore and story, this may actually be the case.
They probably did add classes with existing players in mind -- and something that new players can work towards. The assertion that new players might be discouraged is reasonable and displays overall concern for the game's health. Though some may even be driven at that moment; to work towards something as they did in FFXI and then have that memory. Which in turn will give nostalgia for said game and hinder thoughts of wanting to quit -- much like people don't want to leave WoW due to time investment, even if everything is handed to you nowadays (or available via buying gold now).
I believe your concern is moreso for the people rather than the game (not that it can't be both!) in this light. Which is completely what I would expect from someone who is supposed to keep the consumer in mind as part of his job (while also being concerned with the growth of the site). I'm a consumerist myself and find myself oft conflicted with a rare game that requires work vs. people with lives who can't enjoy something if it's too hard. In one case, it's pretty much the only thing left of its kind. On the other... yeah.
Originally posted by Zarriya
Originally posted by MikeB
Originally posted by Divinion
Originally posted by Torval
Originally posted by Divinion
@MikeB Here's the thing, the Final Fantasy Online games (both 11 and 14) has never just let someone come in and pick any class/job they wanted, and it fits the Final Fantasy style admirably. Kind of like a "paying your dues" experience. As a player who has leveled up every class; combat, crafting and gathering alike, I'd be offended if a person who just started the game was able to taken on any of the new classes without experiencing the game at all. Honestly, this game has so much to it and you should want to experience it all and not just rush through and have the newest and shiny things without feeling you earned it.
No it's not. Final Fantasy jrpgs don't make you do that at all. Final Fantasy games, except for their grindy timesink mmos, have never been about paying your dues to get into the cool kids club. That's just their mmo thing and probably why their mmos are not very popular with the rest of the FF fanbase.
I take it you have not played ANY of the single player Final Fantasy titles with the Jobs system in them. Probably the most popular title would be Final Fantasy Tactics would be the best example. You don't just go and say I want to a Ninja, and bam your a Ninja. You have to first level Archer to 3, Thief to 4 and Geomancer to 2 (which means you would have leveled Squire to 2 to unlock Knight, then that to 2 to unlock Monk, and that to 3 to unlock Geomancer.)
But that's not what's going on here. They're just being arbitrarily content gated. This isn't a matter of you need to level A job to B level plus C job to D level. They're standalone jobs without any requirements other than an arbitrary content gate. Unlocking said gate will take a new player a very significant time and effort investment to get through while playing a job they may not necessarily be interested in. Again, precedent was set with Ninja (which is amusing given your choice of example!). They could have and should have done it exactly the same way they did Ninja, with the only difference being you need to own the expansion to play the job at all.
It honestly seems like they designed these jobs with only existing level capped players in mind when it came to the unlock requirements. If I'm already a level 50 Dragoon, I'm generally not going to mind a whole lot that I just need to play the new content to unlock one of the new jobs. It sounds reasonable to me. However, if I'm a player that's new to FFXIV altogether and learning about Heavensward is what got me interested in checking the game out to begin with, I'm going to be pretty bummed out to learn that I need to play through the entire game as a different job entirely before I can even check out any of the expansion exclusive jobs, especially if one of these jobs is the primary reason I became interested in playing in the first place.
Why not see the job unlocks as a reward that needs to be earned. One part of the fun of mmos is earning stuff. A core of the fun of FFXIV is leveling multiple classes.
Yes, IMO FFXIV is doing the right thing.
I agree 90% with this; there is a nagging feeling that I want as many people as possible who love Final Fantasy to be able to play it to their hearts content if it's a matter of having busy lives and not just being lazy. Granted, we do know the base game will be easier to get through come expansion. And the storyline, community and massive updates should be the main reason why people play, considering the game's namesake.
Originally posted by NightHaveN I don't play currently this game. But I'm adult enough to understand there are different points of view. And if Square Enix decided to go a more story oriented and actually require completion of that previous story to unlock the new one and differ themselves from other MMO where there is no barrier, and no point getting certain gear IMO is good for them.
How many times people keep telling old content in other games gets obsolete and irrelevant. This is a way to make everything relevant.
Also a good way to take those part timers reach to cap, then jump game players out of the equation.
This may backfire, or may not. But grats to them for being different.
I could see the idea of not purposely locking classes behind storyline as being beneficial to new players. They could've made sure there were no spoilers, I guess. Perhaps have a temporary guild elsewhere until you got to Ishgard. Maybe a teleport ability / new airship to the guild whereby you weren't allowed to leave it until you became strong enough (just get sent back when done via airship or something). Then again, their quests probably deal with level 30-60 monsters as a whole and are located outside of the guild.
I also enjoy that they're different in this, requiring hard work for something that may be desired.
this has got to be the longest post involving quotes that i have ever seen on mmorpg.com thank you for letting me be a part of it
as for your comment - yes I agree i want some of my more casual friends to play - and they are It is actually a good pace for them. The game's content for their pace seems rewarding enough.
Hmm, I recall Everquest semi-fondly. A new expansion would hit, and unless you were raid geared from the current one - the new hub and maybe an entry zone was about all you can hit.
I can remember that most of my EQ "career" I was perpetually 2-3 expansions behind what the current one was, because I didn't have the gear/AA requirement. My guild didn't get through Planes of Power finally until it was 4 expansions behind.
Now, we weren't completely locked out of all the new content, but there was a significant amount of content that just wasn't doable.
Honestly the only turn off I see at this point, after playing for a couple of days, is that the new jobs could have had easier access to get if nothing else as an incentive for new and returning players to get into the expansion.
Other than that I see the pack of ARR+expansion is like 5 euros more over the expansion by itself so maybe they are counting on that?
In my opinion, the problem is the "forced" Dungeons and trials to progress the storyline.
Even with the extra incentives, no one Queues up for the pre-50 Dungeons anymore. Queue times are ridiculous!
And when Heavensward is released and People are far into the expansion! Good Luck catching up! Not going to happen.
People will be long frustrated and gone and quit again, before they reach Level 50! As nothing is more frustrating that not being able to progress the story, due to endless Queue times for dungeons and trials!
So, having to finish the storyline all the way up to 2.55 is not the problem. It's all the "forced" Dungeons and trials that are tied into it that are the problem, as less and less people queue up for them.
I am currently stuck myself in post Level 50 story line, where I cannot progress further, as no one is queueing up for this specific Dungeon.
Hence, I cannot even progress my weapon quest and no one is queu'ing up anymore for the Chrimea trial. :-/ Have tried several Nights queueing up.... after 2 hours every time I just gave up. I just don't have the time to sit in front of my PC for many hours at a time in hope the Queue pops up. /sigh
The problem is we are weeks from Heavensward and alot of people, myself included, are doing other things or playing other games to be fresh and ready for the xpac. Sure some are playing story catch-up, but I can see why there would be a drought on trials like chimera when everyone's focus is on heavensward right now.
The queue times will be normal just as soon as the xpac drops. All the tanks (DK) healers (astro) and dps (machinist) queuing for duty roulette and what have you. All my friends are evenly split between the rush a 50 to 60 camp and the grab a new class and rush that to 60 instead.
Did you even read?? /facepalm I could care less about the weapon quest now. I rather finish up to 2.55 so I can enter the darn expansion content! But I can't!
You would expect that People are prepping for Heavensward right now and that at least the post Level 50 required Dungeons for the storyline up to 2.55 would have normal Queues. Nope!
How is this going to improve when Heavensward releases? When everyone will be busy playing in Heavensward! With new dungeons and trials! New higher gear levels!
Please enlighten me?
Fact is! There is just no way to catch up anymore! Too late! Not unless SE makes the decision to make all the Dungeons and trials "optional", so you can finish all the story quests up to 2.55 SOLO!
Actually I wont be just in Ishgard. I still need to finish the Flames, Moogle Mail, etc. And ALL of this stuff brings me back to lower areas.
On top of that ALL the crafting and combat class/jobs are in NON HEAVENSWARD areas that we need to come back to constantly.
Expert roulettes and the like will only add dungeons. Books bring TONS of people back to lower dungeons.
In my opinion, the problem is the "forced" Dungeons and trials to progress the storyline.
Even with the extra incentives, no one Queues up for the pre-50 Dungeons anymore. Queue times are ridiculous! And then I am a tank even!!
And when Heavensward is released and People are far into the expansion! Good Luck catching up! Not going to happen.
People will be long frustrated and gone and quit again, before they reach Level 50! As nothing is more frustrating that not being able to progress the story, due to endless Queue times for dungeons and trials!
So, having to finish the storyline all the way up to 2.55 is not the problem. It's all the "forced" Dungeons and trials that are tied into it that are the problem, as less and less people queue up for them.
I am currently stuck myself in post Level 50 story line, where I cannot progress further, as no one is queueing up for this specific Dungeon. So there is no way for me to finish up to 2.55 now for the expansion!
Currently I am glad I did not pre-order and will not be buying the expansion! Pointless when I will be unable to play it!
I cannot even progress my weapon quest as no one is queu'ing up anymore for the Chrimea trial. :-/ Have tried several Nights queueing up.... after 2 hours every time I just gave up. I just don't have the time to sit in front of my PC for many hours at a time in hope the Queue pops up. /sigh
You have well stated my sentiments on this game. FFXIV is way too linear (which is the root of the problem IMHO) and the forced dungeons killed the game for me. My guild collapsed after it devoured the content and disbanded in less than two months. The game became painful to progress alone in - - so I left before I even level capped and have no desire to ever return.
Terrible, terrible business decision. I bet you 90% of people will not realize they cannot play as the new jobs. Just watch the outcry once the game launches.
I intentionally waited to post because I wanted to get a general consensus of how posters felt before I posted what I anticipated was the real problem people had with this topic. And just as I anticipated, the problem is that a good percentage of players are simply wanting to rush to end game, and enjoy the fruits and spoils that end game provides, without having to do the necessary content to "earn" those spoils and achievement.
It is really a crazy dynamic and symptomatic of one of the biggest problems plaguing the MMORPG genre today. And that is that a lot of these players are not MMORPG enthusiasts at all. They don't care about story line. They don't care about immersion. They don't care about the achievement one obtains when completing a journey. They don't care about making friends through their journey and building a community. And most importantly, they don't care about "earning" the achievement of having gotten to the top on their own merit. All they want is the power and instant gratification of achievement, without having to go through the hard fought battles and process that earn said achievement.
This achievement is what MMORPGs are all about, people. MMORPGs are about the a journey and the process of achieving status, or otherwise "winning," through the acquisition of level requirements and gear commensurate with the journey. Those who complete the journey are the "winners.' They are in essence wearing the scars of achievement through their level and acquired superior gear. These are the people you can look up to in the game and say, "he/she is a badass." Why? ... because not everyone one will, or should, achieve that status. If they dumb things down to the point that everyone can achieve that "status" .... what is really the point, after all?
I am not sure where this rushing to end game became the "it" thing thereby rendering all of the content prior it to it a waste of time in MMORPGs. What I am certain of, however, is that it is what is ruining the genre. Again, MMORPGs are about journey and the acquisition of status, power, and prestige through that journey. If you, for whatever reason, can not complete the journey as dictated by the game, then by its very nature, you are the failure, not the game. Your "failure" or inability to complete the tasks set forth by the game, as dictated by the game, does not give you the right to come on forums and criticize it as some type of failure and question its future success with your threats of not subscribing or otherwise supporting it with your funds, unless the game is made easier, in whatever way or form, to meet "your" personal criteria or demands.
This is the crisis with the MMORPG genre in today's gaming industry. And unless developers stop catering to all of these immediate gratification demands, and start putting their foot down and sticking to their ideals as they were formulated when designing, developing, and releasing the game, this genre will continue to be in the state of perpetual confusion it is today. I think Square/Enix, and more specifically Yoshida and Tanaka know this and have it right. They have always been the type to stick with their plans. Let's hope they can set a precedent, and through their steadfastness in this regard, help get the MMORPG back to being a viable and respectable genre in the MMO video game industry. I am not optimistic in this regard, but I remain ever so hopeful.
Has anyone mention one of the options to get "tokens" for the armor gear at iLevel 100 is to do "Hunts" on your level 50 class?
That's how I'm doing it besides dungeons. To me Fooomerang sounds much to whiny and arrogant. The warnings were there and like said this game is NOT orientated to crating and gathering. YOU'RE and ADVENTURER FIRST AND FOREMOST, so Foomerang get the f' over it. Either try and get a refund on the xpac and leave the game or suck it up and do what is required.
Why are people complaining about content being released that they can't participate in right away when they're not even finished the content currently available?
Play the damn game and have fun (or quit), enjoy what is available, then move on to the next stuff when you can. It isn't a race, and it's not some great travesty that it wasn't designed to fit this somehow intense need for instant gratification that people feel they "deserve."
Has anyone mention one of the options to get "tokens" for the armor gear at iLevel 100 is to do "Hunts" on your level 50 class?
That's how I'm doing it besides dungeons. To me Fooomerang sounds much to whiny and arrogant. The warnings were there and like said this game is NOT orientated to crating and gathering. YOU'RE and ADVENTURER FIRST AND FOREMOST, so Foomerang get the f' over it. Either try and get a refund on the xpac and leave the game or suck it up and do what is required.
I have mentioned it several times and used myself as an example of someone who quit the game straight after 2.0 and caught up within 1-2 weeks easily but it's hard to get heard on these forums
I would recommend to everyone who is on the edge: Just resubscribe for a month and AFTER you have done all of the content and story, then decide if you want to buy the expansion or not. That's what I did. Getting the expansion is a significant money investment right now, much higher than the price of the base game and while I have heard rumors that 50-60 is going to take as long as 1-50 I won't believe it until I have played it myself.
When will we finally reach the golden age of MMORPG ? When we can buy a game that has been out for however many years and just decide to play on the latest expansion.We should be able to buy the game and press a button and be fully leveled and raid geared,ah what a dream!
WoW didn't gain millions of subscribers by locking players out of expansion content unless they completed all content in the previous game beforehand. The only requirement should be that a player is max level, and even that's debatable (expansions should provide content for all areas of the game). Completing the main story content shouldn't even factor into the discussion.
Every new expansion should effectively reset the endgame, allowing new players a chance to catch up with the veterans. Otherwise, you end up with a situation like EverQuest where new players had to run through 2-3 years of backlogged raid content to ever be viable at max level. At least in that game, it took awhile before you hit that wall.
Well MikeB, rogue class is availble at the character screen and it's older. Also the new job may be tightly linked to the new story content. Thus requiring some of the new content to be done. I just hope people like you don't wind up destroying the game in a sense
We all have to do things we don't necessarily want to do in an MMORPG.
Lol... different strokes for different folks I suppose. If I am forced to do something in an MMO that I don't find enjoyable, I don't play that MMO anymore.
Well, I've read a lot of the replies and there are some valid points and also a lot of misdirected or confused analogies just like in my thread.
Currently this game, in my opinion, has the best total package of non combat content on the market. It is an oasis mmorpg for players like myself who grew into the genre on games like Star Wars Galaxies and Ultima Online.
My main reason for playing an mmorpg is for the things that it can do that no other genre does: a persistent, community driven game world which encourages competition, collaboration, interdependence, and creativity. FFXIV delivers these features in spades with a level of polish and smart design which is rare in mmorpgs.
I also love the fact that there are tons of combat classes, arenas, battlegrounds, dungeons, raids, and story driven scenarios. I love the fact that I can go into a major city and there are a hundred people around me all doing something different. Going somewhere to do something that I probably will never do. It makes for a more diverse and believable world. And that immersiveness is very important to my enjoyment of an mmorpg.
All I am asking in return is to do the content I enjoy by doing the content I enjoy. I'm not asking for easy mode. I'm not asking for the devs to remove any content. If I want to be the best botanist I can be, I'd like to go into the expansion as a botanist and do botany related content. As it stands now, that is not the case. I must shelve my main class and fight my way through dungeons and raids for the privilege of going back to being a botanist.
I know that most of you playing ffxiv enjoy the combat and the story and feel that is the "point" of the game. I'm sure it is, for you. I'm also glad you have that content and have no desire to see that taken away from you. My question is; why is it such a problem for you that I do not want to partake in it? Why do you feel I should be put through this when the end result is that I go back to botany when I'm done? What huge foul would I be committing if I skipped the story and the killing and all the rest and just continued on my path of being the best botanist I could be?
It would literally have zero impact on your experience. I wouldn't be skipping combat content so I could do end game combat content. Id be skipping combat content because I dont do it in the first place.
Anyway. Like Ive said numerous times, we are trudging through it because in the end, it still has the best non combat content under one roof. And if this is what we have to do to get there, we will. But its not something we will enjoy doing. We went from super excited for the expansion to a slight feeling of dread every time we think about logging in.
I don't know if it is really a barrier or not, depends on how you look at it. it is a gamble on SquareEnix's part as making the requirement to complete all of those quests and obtain that item level in order to enter the expansion. It is possible that doing this will stop some form purchasing it.
Comments
In Final Fantasy games where there are Job Crystals, grind was very much a part of it if you wanted to feel "powerful". You also had to find crystals with said job types. The newer age Final Fantasy games somewhat left out jobs, but even then -- as we see in FFVII -- there was a level grind to do various content or even get past a certain boss that smashed you (as well as grinding a Gold Chocobo and getting Knights of the Round). It is even more relevant in FFVIII with its magic infusion system and trying to beat the final boss.
Which is perfectly okay and a valid reason to complain if you want to play the game, but can't because life gets in the way. Indeed, no doubt they would get more players if they made certain aspects more solo friendly. Luckily, they are doing just this (no real details exposed other than saying they are) in that you might be able to do Story Dungeons solo or with just one other person (might even be able to bring your chocobo in there). It's one of the only MMOs on the market that really makes you work for things at the moment. But if it is a case of simply being too lazy to accomplish something, then that's a different story entirely.
I have roughly a 15-20 minute queue as a DPS at the moment. While normally I play tanks or healers, I don't find tanks to be enjoyable in this game. Hoping this changes with Dark Knight and the faster Global Cooldown with the updated skill speed system. That said, they are working on making story dungeons require only one or two people to complete for older content in the expansion. Some people "preparing" now are doing so to experience the game how 2.0 was before 3.0 makes old content more accessible as a whole.
Hopefully the changes (detailed above) will help you out! Plus, you'll even get experience from them if you wait since the level cap will be increased.
Good criticism and reasoning.
The main reasons they did this are as follows (not that precedence does not hold any validity or point in itself):
Deletion of classes: Square no longer wants there to be 1-30 base classes (Gladiator - Paladin) and instead and Jobs to start at level 30 (where they would turn into such). This allows for them to focus more on new abilities (current and future classes), make more jobs (in general, especially since they don't have to worry about 1-30 quests and cross-class balancing in the future) and have a single storyline for a Job (rather than simple a rogue becoming a Ninja). One could definitely assert that Dark Knight could just start at level 1 and never get an advanced job, as it is one. Though keeping with the theme with each class, I view they wanted to take lore over playability in that Dark knights are supposed to be powerful -- so starting at level 30 makes sense in the world.
Taking out some grind: Advanced Jobs are typically unlocked at level 30 for both FFXI and FFXIV. So in keeping with the theme of taking out classes, one would've had to level to at least 30 anyway before becoming a Dark Knight (if they were just a soldier class or something). It was decided then, that since many players have multiple level 50s already -- and have been through a lot of grind -- that the "hellish grind" will be cut in half for players that unlock the Dark Knight. It is a reward -- a part of an attunement like most of the game has -- for those who have made it to level 50. Yoshi-P wanted to make sure long time players did not have to grin 1-30 again for a new class; the exact number wasn't determined likely until they also put into stone that base classes will no longer be a part of the game going forward (aside from the core base classes you pick from, as was the case with FFXI whereby you only have six classes to start with and unlocked 20+ more in game).
Precedence: Rogue / Ninja can't be made on the character creation screen. You had to be level 10 (in some cases, level 15 if you didn't start in Limsa), and then you could unlock it. I would concur that it might be better to allow people to create it in the character creation in the first place if the restrictions were so limited.
I agree with the lore reasons and the ideas of the team, but also the point that people might be turned off if they actually have to work towards a goal. Personally, I like earning things -- the feeling it gets. Reminds me much of my Ultima Online days and Vanilla WoW. But many people don't have time for that. Indeed, some do not want to put in the time for a class they might not even like (granted, though, that there are many, many other classes to choose from).
To show my own appreciation for those who want access to it all immediately, I have multiple characters that I play across several accounts. Only on about two of them have I completed the main story (2.55). The ones I intend to Role Play on or make my mains next expansion haven't even finished 2.1 yet; a couple of my legacy characters with multiple 50s haven't even started the main storyline, and one of them I want to be a Dark Knight on.
I would LOVE to be able to do it right away. In that light, I would say that simply getting to level 30 and then being able to unlock new classes is a nice compromise. However, as it stands, I believe Heavesward content is needed due to spoilers and the guilds likely being located in Ishgard.
That's one of the main reasons I play, as well! If something isn't allowed, it's likely due to storyline. In that light, I'm fairly sure Dark Knight, Machinist and Astrologian have story that contains spoilers to the main storyline prior to them being playable.
Touched on this above, but reading this might've caused me to remember such and write about it myself, so I'm quoting it to make sure credit is given where it is due.
In these types of Final Fantasy games -- the online ones in particular -- this is normal. It very much is in the same vein as other Final Fantasy Titles, even if not all of them. Still has that Final Fantasy crystal vibe to it that few can deny in that light.
We actually do not know if we need classes leveled to unlock Dark Knight. For all we know, we might need a 30 Warrior and a 15 Thaumaturge to get the questline to be able to tank and use dark magic. Given that the game is mainly based on lore and story, this may actually be the case.
They probably did add classes with existing players in mind -- and something that new players can work towards. The assertion that new players might be discouraged is reasonable and displays overall concern for the game's health. Though some may even be driven at that moment; to work towards something as they did in FFXI and then have that memory. Which in turn will give nostalgia for said game and hinder thoughts of wanting to quit -- much like people don't want to leave WoW due to time investment, even if everything is handed to you nowadays (or available via buying gold now).
I believe your concern is moreso for the people rather than the game (not that it can't be both!) in this light. Which is completely what I would expect from someone who is supposed to keep the consumer in mind as part of his job (while also being concerned with the growth of the site). I'm a consumerist myself and find myself oft conflicted with a rare game that requires work vs. people with lives who can't enjoy something if it's too hard. In one case, it's pretty much the only thing left of its kind. On the other... yeah.
I agree 90% with this; there is a nagging feeling that I want as many people as possible who love Final Fantasy to be able to play it to their hearts content if it's a matter of having busy lives and not just being lazy. Granted, we do know the base game will be easier to get through come expansion. And the storyline, community and massive updates should be the main reason why people play, considering the game's namesake.
I could see the idea of not purposely locking classes behind storyline as being beneficial to new players. They could've made sure there were no spoilers, I guess. Perhaps have a temporary guild elsewhere until you got to Ishgard. Maybe a teleport ability / new airship to the guild whereby you weren't allowed to leave it until you became strong enough (just get sent back when done via airship or something). Then again, their quests probably deal with level 30-60 monsters as a whole and are located outside of the guild.
I also enjoy that they're different in this, requiring hard work for something that may be desired.
I think gating the content makes sense from a narrative stand point. However, from a MMO perspective, it doesn't really.
With that said, the dev team has been making requirements to play through 2.55 more and more accessible with each patch. I imagine that trend will continue after the expansion pack launches.
Being that this expansion brings 50-60 content, make no mistake that this expansion is geared for current FF14 players, and from that stand point, the gating of some content doesn't seem so out of place.
For those that still have his/her panties tied up in a bunch, give Yoshida and his team some time. They have proven that they willing to iterate on their own designs to best suit the playerbase. If the gating turns out to be a truly bad idea, they will make amends and pretty quickly at that.
If you were only interested in jumping in to the game now because of any of the new classes, odds are the game isn't for you anyways. If it was, you would have already invested quite a bit of time in the game by now.
Haven't really thought of it like this before, but it's essentially true.
It also leads me to what my old self would've said back in the day and before all this easy "hand them everything" stuff.
"You have to be pretty full of yourself to expect to join something that people have played 18 months for and instantly have access to everything they do." The so-called barriers aside, part of me still believes this as all I'm seeing are demands and people saying they don't have time or don't want to. Sad state of MMO gaming if I've become so used to this that I partially supported such.
Couldn't agree more. Heavensward definitely is a modern/contemporary MMO Expansion for sure. Most of the content being added straight to the top of the game.
An older MMO would typically add a whole new set of newbie to max level content, a new race or two, and a new class/skill or two...
EQ's Rise of Kunark
DAoC's Shrouded Isles
AO's Shadowlands
this has got to be the longest post involving quotes that i have ever seen on mmorpg.com thank you for letting me be a part of it
as for your comment - yes I agree i want some of my more casual friends to play - and they are It is actually a good pace for them. The game's content for their pace seems rewarding enough.
Hmm, I recall Everquest semi-fondly. A new expansion would hit, and unless you were raid geared from the current one - the new hub and maybe an entry zone was about all you can hit.
I can remember that most of my EQ "career" I was perpetually 2-3 expansions behind what the current one was, because I didn't have the gear/AA requirement. My guild didn't get through Planes of Power finally until it was 4 expansions behind.
Now, we weren't completely locked out of all the new content, but there was a significant amount of content that just wasn't doable.
No. This is good, typical Final Fantasy fashion. They've already dumbed this game down FAR from what 11 was, let's not continue that train.
Follow the story, the game is centered around it. This is obviously their vision
Honestly the only turn off I see at this point, after playing for a couple of days, is that the new jobs could have had easier access to get if nothing else as an incentive for new and returning players to get into the expansion.
Other than that I see the pack of ARR+expansion is like 5 euros more over the expansion by itself so maybe they are counting on that?
Actually I wont be just in Ishgard. I still need to finish the Flames, Moogle Mail, etc. And ALL of this stuff brings me back to lower areas.
On top of that ALL the crafting and combat class/jobs are in NON HEAVENSWARD areas that we need to come back to constantly.
Expert roulettes and the like will only add dungeons. Books bring TONS of people back to lower dungeons.
Please quit crying.
You have well stated my sentiments on this game. FFXIV is way too linear (which is the root of the problem IMHO) and the forced dungeons killed the game for me. My guild collapsed after it devoured the content and disbanded in less than two months. The game became painful to progress alone in - - so I left before I even level capped and have no desire to ever return.
Terrible, terrible business decision. I bet you 90% of people will not realize they cannot play as the new jobs. Just watch the outcry once the game launches.
debunking what someone said earlier- I play everyday doing various content - above 50, level 50 etc. On my server:
Queueing for a below 50 dungeon is instant on a tank, 5 min on a healer and 15-50min for DPS
I intentionally waited to post because I wanted to get a general consensus of how posters felt before I posted what I anticipated was the real problem people had with this topic. And just as I anticipated, the problem is that a good percentage of players are simply wanting to rush to end game, and enjoy the fruits and spoils that end game provides, without having to do the necessary content to "earn" those spoils and achievement.
It is really a crazy dynamic and symptomatic of one of the biggest problems plaguing the MMORPG genre today. And that is that a lot of these players are not MMORPG enthusiasts at all. They don't care about story line. They don't care about immersion. They don't care about the achievement one obtains when completing a journey. They don't care about making friends through their journey and building a community. And most importantly, they don't care about "earning" the achievement of having gotten to the top on their own merit. All they want is the power and instant gratification of achievement, without having to go through the hard fought battles and process that earn said achievement.
This achievement is what MMORPGs are all about, people. MMORPGs are about the a journey and the process of achieving status, or otherwise "winning," through the acquisition of level requirements and gear commensurate with the journey. Those who complete the journey are the "winners.' They are in essence wearing the scars of achievement through their level and acquired superior gear. These are the people you can look up to in the game and say, "he/she is a badass." Why? ... because not everyone one will, or should, achieve that status. If they dumb things down to the point that everyone can achieve that "status" .... what is really the point, after all?
I am not sure where this rushing to end game became the "it" thing thereby rendering all of the content prior it to it a waste of time in MMORPGs. What I am certain of, however, is that it is what is ruining the genre. Again, MMORPGs are about journey and the acquisition of status, power, and prestige through that journey. If you, for whatever reason, can not complete the journey as dictated by the game, then by its very nature, you are the failure, not the game. Your "failure" or inability to complete the tasks set forth by the game, as dictated by the game, does not give you the right to come on forums and criticize it as some type of failure and question its future success with your threats of not subscribing or otherwise supporting it with your funds, unless the game is made easier, in whatever way or form, to meet "your" personal criteria or demands.
This is the crisis with the MMORPG genre in today's gaming industry. And unless developers stop catering to all of these immediate gratification demands, and start putting their foot down and sticking to their ideals as they were formulated when designing, developing, and releasing the game, this genre will continue to be in the state of perpetual confusion it is today. I think Square/Enix, and more specifically Yoshida and Tanaka know this and have it right. They have always been the type to stick with their plans. Let's hope they can set a precedent, and through their steadfastness in this regard, help get the MMORPG back to being a viable and respectable genre in the MMO video game industry. I am not optimistic in this regard, but I remain ever so hopeful.
Has anyone mention one of the options to get "tokens" for the armor gear at iLevel 100 is to do "Hunts" on your level 50 class?
That's how I'm doing it besides dungeons. To me Fooomerang sounds much to whiny and arrogant. The warnings were there and like said this game is NOT orientated to crating and gathering. YOU'RE and ADVENTURER FIRST AND FOREMOST, so Foomerang get the f' over it. Either try and get a refund on the xpac and leave the game or suck it up and do what is required.
Why are people complaining about content being released that they can't participate in right away when they're not even finished the content currently available?
Play the damn game and have fun (or quit), enjoy what is available, then move on to the next stuff when you can. It isn't a race, and it's not some great travesty that it wasn't designed to fit this somehow intense need for instant gratification that people feel they "deserve."
I have mentioned it several times and used myself as an example of someone who quit the game straight after 2.0 and caught up within 1-2 weeks easily but it's hard to get heard on these forums
I would recommend to everyone who is on the edge: Just resubscribe for a month and AFTER you have done all of the content and story, then decide if you want to buy the expansion or not. That's what I did. Getting the expansion is a significant money investment right now, much higher than the price of the base game and while I have heard rumors that 50-60 is going to take as long as 1-50 I won't believe it until I have played it myself.
I'm a MUDder. I play MUDs.
Current: Dragonrealms
When will we finally reach the golden age of MMORPG ? When we can buy a game that has been out for however many years and just decide to play on the latest expansion.We should be able to buy the game and press a button and be fully leveled and raid geared,ah what a dream!
We are heading that way for sure!
WoW didn't gain millions of subscribers by locking players out of expansion content unless they completed all content in the previous game beforehand. The only requirement should be that a player is max level, and even that's debatable (expansions should provide content for all areas of the game). Completing the main story content shouldn't even factor into the discussion.
Every new expansion should effectively reset the endgame, allowing new players a chance to catch up with the veterans. Otherwise, you end up with a situation like EverQuest where new players had to run through 2-3 years of backlogged raid content to ever be viable at max level. At least in that game, it took awhile before you hit that wall.
Lol... different strokes for different folks I suppose. If I am forced to do something in an MMO that I don't find enjoyable, I don't play that MMO anymore.
My second thought on this:
Since when did Content become a barrier to entry? Most people complain there isn't enough, now we are complaining there is too much?
Well, I've read a lot of the replies and there are some valid points and also a lot of misdirected or confused analogies just like in my thread.
Currently this game, in my opinion, has the best total package of non combat content on the market. It is an oasis mmorpg for players like myself who grew into the genre on games like Star Wars Galaxies and Ultima Online.
My main reason for playing an mmorpg is for the things that it can do that no other genre does: a persistent, community driven game world which encourages competition, collaboration, interdependence, and creativity. FFXIV delivers these features in spades with a level of polish and smart design which is rare in mmorpgs.
I also love the fact that there are tons of combat classes, arenas, battlegrounds, dungeons, raids, and story driven scenarios. I love the fact that I can go into a major city and there are a hundred people around me all doing something different. Going somewhere to do something that I probably will never do. It makes for a more diverse and believable world. And that immersiveness is very important to my enjoyment of an mmorpg.
All I am asking in return is to do the content I enjoy by doing the content I enjoy. I'm not asking for easy mode. I'm not asking for the devs to remove any content. If I want to be the best botanist I can be, I'd like to go into the expansion as a botanist and do botany related content. As it stands now, that is not the case. I must shelve my main class and fight my way through dungeons and raids for the privilege of going back to being a botanist.
I know that most of you playing ffxiv enjoy the combat and the story and feel that is the "point" of the game. I'm sure it is, for you. I'm also glad you have that content and have no desire to see that taken away from you. My question is; why is it such a problem for you that I do not want to partake in it? Why do you feel I should be put through this when the end result is that I go back to botany when I'm done? What huge foul would I be committing if I skipped the story and the killing and all the rest and just continued on my path of being the best botanist I could be?
It would literally have zero impact on your experience. I wouldn't be skipping combat content so I could do end game combat content. Id be skipping combat content because I dont do it in the first place.
Anyway. Like Ive said numerous times, we are trudging through it because in the end, it still has the best non combat content under one roof. And if this is what we have to do to get there, we will. But its not something we will enjoy doing. We went from super excited for the expansion to a slight feeling of dread every time we think about logging in.
See you in Heavensward! (eventually lol)
I don't know if it is really a barrier or not, depends on how you look at it. it is a gamble on SquareEnix's part as making the requirement to complete all of those quests and obtain that item level in order to enter the expansion. It is possible that doing this will stop some form purchasing it.
I guess we will see in a few months.
it was a broken game that they had to fix,no barrier.
BORING AS HELL!