Originally posted by delete5230 This is a stigma that seems be attached to the words " Old School ".....The only reason I could see is posters here pick up on the word OLD and run with it.
What's up with this ?
Why do people ever leave an existing 'old school' game that has everything they want?
You always bring up this strawman, and people always inform you that the older games we loved have drastically changed.
That's the very nature of an mmo and especially an mmorpg though; that they are ever evolving and changing. An mmo can't live and be static at the same time. It eventually stagnates and dies in that state.
I won't deny there are obviously people that would love static snapshots of online games, but there are some big hurdles to overcome with that thinking. For one, getting enough people in the same group that want the same snapshot. Players still expect content and updates that won't change or affect their game. It's a losing proposition for developers and publishers both financially and developmentally.
Expecting a developer to foresee when to freeze and encapsulate their game is completely unreasonable for the above mentioned reasons. Expecting a developer to pump millions of dollars into a fickle and potentially unloyal customer base in an already risky venture is beyond unreasonable. At the very very best you will end up like CCP with a moderately successful game where development is held hostage by the players and they can never move forward or break out of their chains. At worst there will be niche games where one update sends the players packing and the game into limbo. That is the scary dilemma that CU, Pathfinder, Pantheon, Crowfall, and these other indie niches face. It's a precarious road for them with a very fickle demanding crowd.
It's a reality of competition.
Players like to call it "the game changed in a direction they don't like". When the reality is people are leaving because of Wow. I'm not even the one saying it. The developers of SOE said themself people are quiting in droves because of Wow.
So SOE make the jump with the change. Which caused their own destruction. If they keep the game philosophy the same, they could at least keep the rest of the players.
It is true of competition, but there is a reason business schools teach the importance of maintaining a brand identity. When your identity starts to waver, as EQ's did well before WoW, your brand becomes weaker and more susceptible to being overtaken. The real problem with EQ, is that they had been changing the game for years to try to capture a larger audience, instead of just doing what they did well. By the time WoW landed, it did most of what EQ was doing better.
I don't think most people are arguing in favor of making another game like EQ in 2005 (ie. EQ today). We want older games that are more like they were originally, when they were more concerned with being massively multiplayer than compromising the virtual world for the sake of more money and hypothetically, a larger audience.
Originally posted by Antiquated Why do people ever leave an existing 'old school' game that has everything they want?
You always bring up this strawman, and people always inform you that the older games we loved have drastically changed.
I do buh what?--can you point out a single previous example?I always enjoy when people that I don't even know tell me what my habits are or aren't.
Originally posted by Antiquated
Originally posted by DullahanThats all this fanciful "bittervet" syndrome is. Its things in games that have been lost in pursuit of WoW money. Try as they might, they just can't invalidate these opinions. Most of them can't even see through their WoW goggles that everything has tended towards convenience at the price of depth and a sense of accomplishment for adult players.
Surely, were that the case, then one could still find pride and a sense of accomplishment in those fifteen-year-old titles?Must be something else. Or many, many something elses.
We want older games that are more like they were originally, when they were more concerned with being massively multiplayer than compromising the virtual world for the sake of more money and hypothetically, a larger audience.
Here's the important part.
To this I would add the community has been compromised for the sake of convenience as well as the virtual world. That and games where it's not about how much you play but how much you spend.
"You CAN'T buy ships for RL money." - MaxBacon
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
We want older games that are more like they were originally, when they were more concerned with being massively multiplayer than compromising the virtual world for the sake of more money and hypothetically, a larger audience.
Here's the important part.
To this I would add the community has been compromised for the sake of convenience as well as the virtual world. That and games where it's not about how much you play but how much you spend.
So "old school" games didn't care about making money? Is that why most of them are not around? Or is because they weren't that good and nobody played them?
We want older games that are more like they were originally, when they were more concerned with being massively multiplayer than compromising the virtual world for the sake of more money and hypothetically, a larger audience.
Here's the important part.
To this I would add the community has been compromised for the sake of convenience as well as the virtual world. That and games where it's not about how much you play but how much you spend.
So "old school" games didn't care about making money? Is that why most of them are not around? Or is because they weren't that good and nobody played them?
I will throw out an old school term, BURN!!
Originally posted by laokoko "if you want to be a game designer, you should sell your house and fund your game. Since if you won't even fund your own game, no one will".
My personal issue is nothing released after 2004 is even worth talking about - the only MMO I kept returning to that was released after that was Warhammer: Age of Reckoning. Unfortunately, that one's gone now.
Nothing worthwhile to be considered "new old school" has really found a niche. The only real competition to WoW, EQ and UO were EVE and Star Wars Galaxies - all came out earlier than 2004 and one of those is long since dead.
My personal issue is nothing released after 2004 is even worth talking about - the only MMO I kept returning to that was released after that was Warhammer: Age of Reckoning. Unfortunately, that one's gone now.
Nothing worthwhile to be considered "new old school" has really found a niche. The only real competition to WoW, EQ and UO were EVE and Star Wars Galaxies - all came out earlier than 2004 and one of those is long since dead.
Maybe you need to find a new hobby. If all the games you THINK are good get shut down its possible that mmorpgs are not for you because clearly you don't know what good...
"Old Schoolers" are often laughed and because they seem to forget that what they yearn for wasn't perfection.
Your answer is more about you I can assure you.
I doubt any person wanting an old school mmo is wanting perfection. At least where there are no "issues".
However, if they think that long leveling, limited fast travel, no teleporting dungeon finders and whatever else is associated with "old school" mmo's IS perfection (meaning they like this stuff) then who are you to tell them otherwise?
I have to say that those things I listed, to me are closer to perfection than not.
That is actually patently untrue. I am happy playing some of the current crop of MMOs, and I am quite a realist when it comes to the old school. My first love was SWG, and that was a hot broken mess. If you think this statement is about my personal views, you have to be ignoring a huge amount of posts on this site. And mine. I yearn for the good old days, but how high a pedestal they get put on by many of us is part of why we get laughed at. Which was my response to a question about why we get laughed at. You know, the context of my statement.
It's no secret around here that I yearn for the old days. But you can go ahead and take a sentence out of context and pick at it if it makes you happy.
If you think that many of us haven't romanticized our past MMO experiences, I can tell you without a doubt that that thought process is about you.
I really hope that *insert game name here* will be the first game to ever live up to all of its pre-release promises, maintain a manageable hype level and have a clean release. Just don't expect me to hold my breath.
We want older games that are more like they were originally, when they were more concerned with being massively multiplayer than compromising the virtual world for the sake of more money and hypothetically, a larger audience.
Here's the important part.
To this I would add the community has been compromised for the sake of convenience as well as the virtual world. That and games where it's not about how much you play but how much you spend.
So "old school" games didn't care about making money? Is that why most of them are not around? Or is because they weren't that good and nobody played them?
Everquest, Ultima Online, Dark Age of Camelot, Anarchy Online, Final Fantasy XI, Runescape and Lineage are all still around. Lot's of people played and play them and they make lot's of money. There is this thing called greed, nickel and diming, and abusive blatant cash shop casino lock box money grabbing.
We didn't have that crap in old school games.
A lot of the old school games were early pioneers in the industry trying to make names for themselves with unique game worlds and mechanics. Then we got rip-offs, clones, knock-offs and all forms of imitation crap. Sure they all want to make money but unless you missed it there has been a pretty clear shift in monetization and cash shops and microtransactions have emerged. Some of which are downright exploitative.
I also played every game I listed here among many other old school games and MUDs.
It's a lot more fun to me to learn tailoring and make myself a new huge backpack than to buy inventory space in a cash shop that's for sure. I would also much rather the people I'm playing with not be one time dungeon run forgettable experiences.
"You CAN'T buy ships for RL money." - MaxBacon
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
We want older games that are more like they were originally, when they were more concerned with being massively multiplayer than compromising the virtual world for the sake of more money and hypothetically, a larger audience.
Here's the important part.
To this I would add the community has been compromised for the sake of convenience as well as the virtual world. That and games where it's not about how much you play but how much you spend.
So "old school" games didn't care about making money? Is that why most of them are not around? Or is because they weren't that good and nobody played them?
Everquest, Ultima Online, Dark Age of Camelot, Anarchy Online, Final Fantasy XI, Runescape and Lineage are all still around. Lot's of people played and play them and they make lot's of money. There is this thing called greed, nickel and diming, and abusive blatant cash shop casino lock box money grabbing.
We didn't have that crap in old school games.
A lot of the old school games were early pioneers in the industry trying to make names for themselves with unique game worlds and mechanics. Then we got rip-offs, clones, knock-offs and all forms of imitation crap. Sure they all want to make money but unless you missed it there has been a pretty clear shift in monetization and cash shops and microtransactions have emerged. Some of which are downright exploitative.
I also played every game I listed here among many other old school games and MUDs.
It's a lot more fun to me to learn tailoring and make myself a new huge backpack than to buy inventory space in a cash shop that's for sure. I would also much rather the people I'm playing with not be one time dungeon run forgettable experiences.
Those games you mentioned are all good but they are not the top dog anymore. Mmorpgs have evolved if you "old schoolers" want them to or not. If your old school games are so great a simple question needs to be asked? Why won't developers make a new old school game? It's obvious what the answer is and its today's gamer don't want them. It's doesn't matter if you agree with it or not, nobody cares if you think today's games are greedy it's what the masses want and it's what the developers are delivering.
Sorry the "old school gamers" are the minority it's why you guys don't get any new games. Maybe someday a dev will take a risk (it would be a huge risk) and give the few of you what you want. I don't think it will happen anytime soon not until some of these f2p games start to close.
Reading most every post, I would say off the cuff that 80% don't get it.
Wait, let's try to think like, you know, mature adults.
So 80% "dont get it". Which means, 80% don't agree with your post. Couldn't it be that actually YOU and the 20% are wrong, and the 80% are actually right?
That's how democracy works.
OK good idea, Lets be mature OK ?
Your saying if a new mmo were made with Old school qualities it would have kill 10 rat quest, low 2001 graphics, and raids that would last 9 hours, and the coding would be a mess.
Is that what your saying ?
Like one or not, do you think it would have stick figures ?
First back up, what is it that you think people don't get? Reading all your posts/threads suggests you feel people aren't giving you the authority on this topic you think you deserve. IE the authority on what's good or bad, the authority on what an MMORPG must be, etc... This is a running theme with your threads.
I'm sure you could see that
1) People are forever searching for a new mmo, even with over 200 mmos on the list here.
2) A lot of the people are pissed about cash shops.
3) A lot of people are looking for an mmo that will last more than 30 days, they would like to find a home for a long time.
4) Archage, proved that people are looking for an Old school style, but greed got the better of developers.
5) Lots of post on General Discussions Have been made on here, asking for the same thing.
6) Pantheon, is becoming the "looking forward mmo ", because of the promise of old school qualities, and that mmo is years away !
1) People? What people can you show us these people?
2) A lot of people? Can you show us these lots of people? Any data on this other than MMORPGS with cash shops are profitable?
3) A lot of people are looking for mmo that last more than 30 days? Can you provide the emails these people have sent you to back up this?
4) Archage proved that sandboxers cant even be happy with a sandbox, it didnt prove anything else. But I would love to see the data that proved it to you.
5) Lots of post on a small website that 99.9% of MMORPG players dont come to or know about? What does that have to do with anything?
6) Pantheon is becoming the "looking forward mmo" TO YOU, and maybe others because there is nothing else coming down the pipe right now. I would bet that more people are "looking forward to ESO on the Console" than looking forward to Pantheon.
Again stop acting like you know what other people want, think, or feel because you clearly have no clue what others want, think or fee.
Players not wanting to play ArchAge is not an indication that Players don't want a Sandbox MMO... it is an indication that some Sandbox Players don't like or approve of how the Devs of ArchAge did things with their MMO and their business and funding. After hearing how ArchAge operates I won't ever play it no matter who hosts it in the West.
There have many, MANY, comments made by posters on this site alone as to how they did not like this or that of how ArchAge is managed or how it's funded. I would call that "People".
Old school players are fools, they never see the light. They are always, memememememememememe.
Originally posted by laokoko "if you want to be a game designer, you should sell your house and fund your game. Since if you won't even fund your own game, no one will".
Whenever anyone brings up the words " Old School ", everyone here instantly reverts back to VERY OLD mmos such as UO or Everquest 1, or DAOC, even Vanilla World of Warcraft in its deepest broken stages of how it was from day one of release.
Then they poke fun at the poster !!!!
If a newer " Old School " mmo were made, I can assure you it would not be made with 2001 graphic stick figures or extremely cartoonish world or only fetch 10 skunk tails, unless the developers are trying to code it for lower end machines.
This is a stigma that seems be attached to the words " Old School ".....The only reason I could see is posters here pick up on the word OLD and run with it.
What's up with this ?
Are you serious?
Just look at all the "indie old-school" kickstarter/crowdfunded projects. They look as bad as 2001 graphics.
We want older games that are more like they were originally, when they were more concerned with being massively multiplayer than compromising the virtual world for the sake of more money and hypothetically, a larger audience.
What is wrong with a larger audience?
Entertaining more people is a bad thing now? I don't see why devs cannot minimize "massively" if that is not what their audience cares about.
We want older games that are more like they were originally, when they were more concerned with being massively multiplayer than compromising the virtual world for the sake of more money and hypothetically, a larger audience.
Here's the important part.
To this I would add the community has been compromised for the sake of convenience as well as the virtual world. That and games where it's not about how much you play but how much you spend.
So "old school" games didn't care about making money? Is that why most of them are not around? Or is because they weren't that good and nobody played them?
The thing is, they actually lost money in the long term by changing. It can be great at first when you make your game more accessible, but now you are in a much more volatile position of having to compete with many casual games. At least before you offered something unique. In addition to that, maintaining a distinct brand identity also inspires loyalty of your playerbase, keeps your income and population stable, and strengthens your community.
We want older games that are more like they were originally, when they were more concerned with being massively multiplayer than compromising the virtual world for the sake of more money and hypothetically, a larger audience.
Here's the important part.
To this I would add the community has been compromised for the sake of convenience as well as the virtual world. That and games where it's not about how much you play but how much you spend.
So "old school" games didn't care about making money? Is that why most of them are not around? Or is because they weren't that good and nobody played them?
The thing is, they actually lost money in the long term by changing. It can be great at first when you make your game more accessible, but now you are in a much more volatile position of having to compete with many casual games. At least before you offered something unique. In addition to that, maintaining a distinct brand identity also inspires loyalty of your playerbase, keeps your income and population stable, and strengthens your community.
I'm not sure where you're getting your info from, but I'd check again.
WoW is still the top grossing MMO of all time (by a large margin). Depending on the list (some don't concider world of tanks an MMO), that is usually second, followed by Lineage 1 (which is 1 of 2 'old school' MMOs seen on ANY of the top grossing lists I've been able to find).
Literally the only 2 old school MMOs that even pop up on any of the top grossing lists are Lineage 1, and Eve. None of the others even come close. And all the other spots are filled by newer games. TERA, SWTOR, LotRO, Aion, & RIFT to name a few.
If you look at top online games, the lists are clearly dominated by MOBAs, which is why there's such a large desire from devs to make some version of those games atm.
My personal issue is nothing released after 2004 is even worth talking about - the only MMO I kept returning to that was released after that was Warhammer: Age of Reckoning. Unfortunately, that one's gone now.
Nothing worthwhile to be considered "new old school" has really found a niche. The only real competition to WoW, EQ and UO were EVE and Star Wars Galaxies - all came out earlier than 2004 and one of those is long since dead.
Maybe you need to find a new hobby. If all the games you THINK are good get shut down its possible that mmorpgs are not for you because clearly you don't know what good...
Or I play World of Warcraft, EVE and Project 1999... and am perfectly happy with those.
See, that's the problem with assuming the person you're addressing online is a complete idiot - usually, you're so occupied with that, you overlook something only a moron would.
You want old school niche with a main stream budget. You want console quality worlds and quests but oh no its so dumbed down now. You have a laundry list of mandatory features yet your favorite mmorpg was mostly broken during its prime. You don't play any mmos and hate everything out there yet you insist you love the genre. You want the genre to change because you can't deal with your own personal changes over the years. You post the same topics over and over to create some sense of "we" all feel like this. You have officially run out of new things to complain about.
You want old school niche with a main stream budget. You want console quality worlds and quests but oh no its so dumbed down now. You have a laundry list of mandatory features yet your favorite mmorpg was mostly broken during its prime. You don't play any mmos and hate everything out there yet you insist you love the genre. You want the genre to change because you can't deal with your own personal changes over the years. You post the same topics over and over to create some sense of "we" all feel like this. You have officially run out of new things to complain about.
Personally my favorite one is that most of these old school MMOs bitter vets endlessly pine for the days of are still up and running yet they refuse to play them.
We want older games that are more like they were originally, when they were more concerned with being massively multiplayer than compromising the virtual world for the sake of more money and hypothetically, a larger audience.
Here's the important part.
To this I would add the community has been compromised for the sake of convenience as well as the virtual world. That and games where it's not about how much you play but how much you spend.
So "old school" games didn't care about making money? Is that why most of them are not around? Or is because they weren't that good and nobody played them?
The thing is, they actually lost money in the long term by changing. It can be great at first when you make your game more accessible, but now you are in a much more volatile position of having to compete with many casual games. At least before you offered something unique. In addition to that, maintaining a distinct brand identity also inspires loyalty of your playerbase, keeps your income and population stable, and strengthens your community.
I'm not sure where you're getting your info from, but I'd check again.
WoW is still the top grossing MMO of all time (by a large margin). Depending on the list (some don't concider world of tanks an MMO), that is usually second, followed by Lineage 1 (which is 1 of 2 'old school' MMOs seen on ANY of the top grossing lists I've been able to find).
Literally the only 2 old school MMOs that even pop up on any of the top grossing lists are Lineage 1, and Eve. None of the others even come close. And all the other spots are filled by newer games. TERA, SWTOR, LotRO, Aion, & RIFT to name a few.
If you look at top online games, the lists are clearly dominated by MOBAs, which is why there's such a large desire from devs to make some version of those games atm.
Ok, so WoW is doing well. What about the other 2 dozen MMOs in the last 10 years that were based around a similar casual philosophy.
Almost all are doing worse than early EQ, in a time where there was less than a 10th of the current people on the internet.
You want old school niche with a main stream budget. You want console quality worlds and quests but oh no its so dumbed down now. You have a laundry list of mandatory features yet your favorite mmorpg was mostly broken during its prime. You don't play any mmos and hate everything out there yet you insist you love the genre. You want the genre to change because you can't deal with your own personal changes over the years. You post the same topics over and over to create some sense of "we" all feel like this. You have officially run out of new things to complain about.
Personally my favorite one is that most of these old school MMOs bitter vets endlessly pine for the days of are still up and running yet they refuse to play them.
^This
I'm one of those vets. I have tried to go back and it just isn't the same any more. I like a lot of things that have changes over the years. I do wish some things would return to the old days....if it were possible. I do want things to change where the depth returns. The reason I spent years playing the originals isn't there any more. But I also realize it's probably me.
I remember EQ, DAoC, AO, UO, and more. I remember those days. But so much of the game play is so outdated. For a good reason. I just wish they could invent a world like they used to. Make it take more time to advance. Make it so it wasn't so easy to get cookie cutter builds and spread them like a virus across the internet.
Some MMOs come close and I play them. Just not nearly as long as I used to.
"This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."
"Old Schoolers" are often laughed and because they seem to forget that what they yearn for wasn't perfection.
Your answer is more about you I can assure you.
I doubt any person wanting an old school mmo is wanting perfection. At least where there are no "issues".
However, if they think that long leveling, limited fast travel, no teleporting dungeon finders and whatever else is associated with "old school" mmo's IS perfection (meaning they like this stuff) then who are you to tell them otherwise?
I have to say that those things I listed, to me are closer to perfection than not.
That is actually patently untrue. I am happy playing some of the current crop of MMOs, and I am quite a realist when it comes to the old school. My first love was SWG, and that was a hot broken mess. If you think this statement is about my personal views, you have to be ignoring a huge amount of posts on this site. And mine. I yearn for the good old days, but how high a pedestal they get put on by many of us is part of why we get laughed at. Which was my response to a question about why we get laughed at. You know, the context of my statement.
It's no secret around here that I yearn for the old days. But you can go ahead and take a sentence out of context and pick at it if it makes you happy.
If you think that many of us haven't romanticized our past MMO experiences, I can tell you without a doubt that that thought process is about you.
The part in yellow is your bit and that is what I responded to.
I've already said it but I guess it has to be repeated, no one that I know of, my self included, has ever said what they yearned for was perfection. Especially since there is no such thing as "perfection".
The caveat to that if they like those things that old school mmo's seem to embody such as long leveling times, etc, etc (already covered that) then that is probably closer to their idea of the perfect game.
"you" seem to think that enjoying these things is romanticizing past mmo experiences. Which again, is a about "you".
I have never romanticized my past mmo experiences. I can name all the amazing mmo experiences that I would still think amazing and I can name the things I really thought sucked.
So, I love long leveling, I love limited fast travel, I love no auction house and bartering with players, I absolutely loved getting lost, I loved having danger, and real danger, in areas that one thought was safe. I could go on. I loved the excitement that built waiting for a spawn, I loved getting together with people and camping areas.
These are all things that I am more than willing to do today. Today's games can support these things to lesser extent but they are mostly geared toward streamlining all those things.
I bet "dollars to donuts" that many other "old school" mmo players can do the exact same thing. The "you" part seems to come from this idea of "you" romanticizing past mmo experiences.
So "ok" I'll have this discussion. Please tell me of your past mmo experiences that you feel you have romanticized but were in reality horrible or don't hold up to a candle in this day and age? We can then see if others agree or if the "old school" people truly love those things.
Truth be told it's going to be a mixed bag. There are people who hate those things and who have shared just that on these forums. But there are people who love these things. I wonder how many times they have to repeat they love those things before others will take them seriously?
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You want old school niche with a main stream budget. You want console quality worlds and quests but oh no its so dumbed down now. You have a laundry list of mandatory features yet your favorite mmorpg was mostly broken during its prime. You don't play any mmos and hate everything out there yet you insist you love the genre. You want the genre to change because you can't deal with your own personal changes over the years. You post the same topics over and over to create some sense of "we" all feel like this. You have officially run out of new things to complain about.
Personally my favorite one is that most of these old school MMOs bitter vets endlessly pine for the days of are still up and running yet they refuse to play them.
^This
I'm one of those vets. I have tried to go back and it just isn't the same any more. I like a lot of things that have changes over the years. I do wish some things would return to the old days....if it were possible. I do want things to change where the depth returns. The reason I spent years playing the originals isn't there any more. But I also realize it's probably me.
I remember EQ, DAoC, AO, UO, and more. I remember those days. But so much of the game play is so outdated. For a good reason. I just wish they could invent a world like they used to. Make it take more time to advance. Make it so it wasn't so easy to get cookie cutter builds and spread them like a virus across the internet.
Some MMOs come close and I play them. Just not nearly as long as I used to.
This is one thing most MMO vets have a hard time admitting. A good part of the reason things feel so different now has far more to do with how the world outside of the games has changed.
A few days ago there was a bitter vet who had the audacity to say that vanilla WoW raiding had harder mechanics than current WoW... which is perhaps one of the most ridiculous things I've ever herd. The difficulty in vanilla WoW is that you had 40 people, and none of those 40 people had been to a website to watch a video where they broke down every last detail of the fight and told you exactly what you needed to do to win or a site that told you exactly what skills and build you should use.
How exactly do you go about creating exploration in MMOs in an age where everyone and their mother knows about google?
You want old school niche with a main stream budget. You want console quality worlds and quests but oh no its so dumbed down now. You have a laundry list of mandatory features yet your favorite mmorpg was mostly broken during its prime. You don't play any mmos and hate everything out there yet you insist you love the genre. You want the genre to change because you can't deal with your own personal changes over the years. You post the same topics over and over to create some sense of "we" all feel like this. You have officially run out of new things to complain about.
Oh, us "bitter vets" are not too hard to understand. Let me help you out, sonny.
We want main stream budget games that are as fun to play as the eye-opening games like UO, EQ and WoW were at their time.
We want non-dumbed down games that are as fun to play as the eye-opening games like UO, EQ and WoW were at their time.
We want games with features that make them as fun to play as the eye-opening games like UO, EQ and WoW were at their time.
We hate most everything out there because they aren't as fun to play as the eye-opening games like UO, EQ and WoW were at their time.
We want the genre to produce games that are as fun to play as the eye-opening games like UO, EQ and WoW were at their time.
And while similar topics get posted sometimes by same or different people (that's the way the Internet works, son - it's like a bigger version of Instagram and Snapchat), we all share one thing in common: we're looking for a game that's as fun to play as the eye-opening games like UO, EQ and WoW were at their time.
And since you looped us all together anyway, using 'we' is okay.
And we've run out of new things to complain about because every new MMO that comes out seems to run out of new things to screw up that the last ones hadn't.
I hope this has given you some insight into how us old folks operate. Now I'm going to drink some damn prune juice, read my Facebook feed and wonder why your generation has done such stupid crap like making selfies a thing and Justin Bieber popular.
How exactly do you go about creating exploration in MMOs in an age where everyone and their mother knows about google?
These words right here sums it up now....not just for exploration. I love to be able to find an answer for a quest or whatever on the net. But now we have a toilet bowl full of "the easy way".
"This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."
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It is true of competition, but there is a reason business schools teach the importance of maintaining a brand identity. When your identity starts to waver, as EQ's did well before WoW, your brand becomes weaker and more susceptible to being overtaken. The real problem with EQ, is that they had been changing the game for years to try to capture a larger audience, instead of just doing what they did well. By the time WoW landed, it did most of what EQ was doing better.
I don't think most people are arguing in favor of making another game like EQ in 2005 (ie. EQ today). We want older games that are more like they were originally, when they were more concerned with being massively multiplayer than compromising the virtual world for the sake of more money and hypothetically, a larger audience.
Here's the important part.
To this I would add the community has been compromised for the sake of convenience as well as the virtual world. That and games where it's not about how much you play but how much you spend.
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/So "old school" games didn't care about making money? Is that why most of them are not around? Or is because they weren't that good and nobody played them?
I will throw out an old school term, BURN!!
Originally posted by laokoko
"if you want to be a game designer, you should sell your house and fund your game. Since if you won't even fund your own game, no one will".
My personal issue is nothing released after 2004 is even worth talking about - the only MMO I kept returning to that was released after that was Warhammer: Age of Reckoning. Unfortunately, that one's gone now.
Nothing worthwhile to be considered "new old school" has really found a niche. The only real competition to WoW, EQ and UO were EVE and Star Wars Galaxies - all came out earlier than 2004 and one of those is long since dead.
Maybe you need to find a new hobby. If all the games you THINK are good get shut down its possible that mmorpgs are not for you because clearly you don't know what good...
That is actually patently untrue. I am happy playing some of the current crop of MMOs, and I am quite a realist when it comes to the old school. My first love was SWG, and that was a hot broken mess. If you think this statement is about my personal views, you have to be ignoring a huge amount of posts on this site. And mine. I yearn for the good old days, but how high a pedestal they get put on by many of us is part of why we get laughed at. Which was my response to a question about why we get laughed at. You know, the context of my statement.
It's no secret around here that I yearn for the old days. But you can go ahead and take a sentence out of context and pick at it if it makes you happy.
If you think that many of us haven't romanticized our past MMO experiences, I can tell you without a doubt that that thought process is about you.
I really hope that *insert game name here* will be the first game to ever live up to all of its pre-release promises, maintain a manageable hype level and have a clean release. Just don't expect me to hold my breath.
Everquest, Ultima Online, Dark Age of Camelot, Anarchy Online, Final Fantasy XI, Runescape and Lineage are all still around. Lot's of people played and play them and they make lot's of money. There is this thing called greed, nickel and diming, and abusive blatant cash shop casino lock box money grabbing.
We didn't have that crap in old school games.
A lot of the old school games were early pioneers in the industry trying to make names for themselves with unique game worlds and mechanics. Then we got rip-offs, clones, knock-offs and all forms of imitation crap. Sure they all want to make money but unless you missed it there has been a pretty clear shift in monetization and cash shops and microtransactions have emerged. Some of which are downright exploitative.
I also played every game I listed here among many other old school games and MUDs.
It's a lot more fun to me to learn tailoring and make myself a new huge backpack than to buy inventory space in a cash shop that's for sure. I would also much rather the people I'm playing with not be one time dungeon run forgettable experiences.
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/Those games you mentioned are all good but they are not the top dog anymore. Mmorpgs have evolved if you "old schoolers" want them to or not. If your old school games are so great a simple question needs to be asked? Why won't developers make a new old school game? It's obvious what the answer is and its today's gamer don't want them. It's doesn't matter if you agree with it or not, nobody cares if you think today's games are greedy it's what the masses want and it's what the developers are delivering.
Sorry the "old school gamers" are the minority it's why you guys don't get any new games. Maybe someday a dev will take a risk (it would be a huge risk) and give the few of you what you want. I don't think it will happen anytime soon not until some of these f2p games start to close.
Players not wanting to play ArchAge is not an indication that Players don't want a Sandbox MMO... it is an indication that some Sandbox Players don't like or approve of how the Devs of ArchAge did things with their MMO and their business and funding. After hearing how ArchAge operates I won't ever play it no matter who hosts it in the West.
There have many, MANY, comments made by posters on this site alone as to how they did not like this or that of how ArchAge is managed or how it's funded. I would call that "People".
Originally posted by laokoko
"if you want to be a game designer, you should sell your house and fund your game. Since if you won't even fund your own game, no one will".
Are you serious?
Just look at all the "indie old-school" kickstarter/crowdfunded projects. They look as bad as 2001 graphics.
What is wrong with a larger audience?
Entertaining more people is a bad thing now? I don't see why devs cannot minimize "massively" if that is not what their audience cares about.
The thing is, they actually lost money in the long term by changing. It can be great at first when you make your game more accessible, but now you are in a much more volatile position of having to compete with many casual games. At least before you offered something unique. In addition to that, maintaining a distinct brand identity also inspires loyalty of your playerbase, keeps your income and population stable, and strengthens your community.
I'm not sure where you're getting your info from, but I'd check again.
WoW is still the top grossing MMO of all time (by a large margin). Depending on the list (some don't concider world of tanks an MMO), that is usually second, followed by Lineage 1 (which is 1 of 2 'old school' MMOs seen on ANY of the top grossing lists I've been able to find).
Literally the only 2 old school MMOs that even pop up on any of the top grossing lists are Lineage 1, and Eve. None of the others even come close. And all the other spots are filled by newer games. TERA, SWTOR, LotRO, Aion, & RIFT to name a few.
If you look at top online games, the lists are clearly dominated by MOBAs, which is why there's such a large desire from devs to make some version of those games atm.
Or I play World of Warcraft, EVE and Project 1999... and am perfectly happy with those.
See, that's the problem with assuming the person you're addressing online is a complete idiot - usually, you're so occupied with that, you overlook something only a moron would.
Bitter vets are a walking contradiction.
You want old school niche with a main stream budget.
You want console quality worlds and quests but oh no its so dumbed down now.
You have a laundry list of mandatory features yet your favorite mmorpg was mostly broken during its prime.
You don't play any mmos and hate everything out there yet you insist you love the genre.
You want the genre to change because you can't deal with your own personal changes over the years.
You post the same topics over and over to create some sense of "we" all feel like this.
You have officially run out of new things to complain about.
Personally my favorite one is that most of these old school MMOs bitter vets endlessly pine for the days of are still up and running yet they refuse to play them.
Ok, so WoW is doing well. What about the other 2 dozen MMOs in the last 10 years that were based around a similar casual philosophy.
Almost all are doing worse than early EQ, in a time where there was less than a 10th of the current people on the internet.
Ouch.
^This
I'm one of those vets. I have tried to go back and it just isn't the same any more. I like a lot of things that have changes over the years. I do wish some things would return to the old days....if it were possible. I do want things to change where the depth returns. The reason I spent years playing the originals isn't there any more. But I also realize it's probably me.
I remember EQ, DAoC, AO, UO, and more. I remember those days. But so much of the game play is so outdated. For a good reason. I just wish they could invent a world like they used to. Make it take more time to advance. Make it so it wasn't so easy to get cookie cutter builds and spread them like a virus across the internet.
Some MMOs come close and I play them. Just not nearly as long as I used to.
"This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."
The part in yellow is your bit and that is what I responded to.
I've already said it but I guess it has to be repeated, no one that I know of, my self included, has ever said what they yearned for was perfection. Especially since there is no such thing as "perfection".
The caveat to that if they like those things that old school mmo's seem to embody such as long leveling times, etc, etc (already covered that) then that is probably closer to their idea of the perfect game.
"you" seem to think that enjoying these things is romanticizing past mmo experiences. Which again, is a about "you".
I have never romanticized my past mmo experiences. I can name all the amazing mmo experiences that I would still think amazing and I can name the things I really thought sucked.
So, I love long leveling, I love limited fast travel, I love no auction house and bartering with players, I absolutely loved getting lost, I loved having danger, and real danger, in areas that one thought was safe. I could go on. I loved the excitement that built waiting for a spawn, I loved getting together with people and camping areas.
These are all things that I am more than willing to do today. Today's games can support these things to lesser extent but they are mostly geared toward streamlining all those things.
I bet "dollars to donuts" that many other "old school" mmo players can do the exact same thing. The "you" part seems to come from this idea of "you" romanticizing past mmo experiences.
So "ok" I'll have this discussion. Please tell me of your past mmo experiences that you feel you have romanticized but were in reality horrible or don't hold up to a candle in this day and age? We can then see if others agree or if the "old school" people truly love those things.
Truth be told it's going to be a mixed bag. There are people who hate those things and who have shared just that on these forums. But there are people who love these things. I wonder how many times they have to repeat they love those things before others will take them seriously?
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
This is one thing most MMO vets have a hard time admitting. A good part of the reason things feel so different now has far more to do with how the world outside of the games has changed.
A few days ago there was a bitter vet who had the audacity to say that vanilla WoW raiding had harder mechanics than current WoW... which is perhaps one of the most ridiculous things I've ever herd. The difficulty in vanilla WoW is that you had 40 people, and none of those 40 people had been to a website to watch a video where they broke down every last detail of the fight and told you exactly what you needed to do to win or a site that told you exactly what skills and build you should use.
How exactly do you go about creating exploration in MMOs in an age where everyone and their mother knows about google?
Oh, us "bitter vets" are not too hard to understand. Let me help you out, sonny.
We want main stream budget games that are as fun to play as the eye-opening games like UO, EQ and WoW were at their time.
We want non-dumbed down games that are as fun to play as the eye-opening games like UO, EQ and WoW were at their time.
We want games with features that make them as fun to play as the eye-opening games like UO, EQ and WoW were at their time.
We hate most everything out there because they aren't as fun to play as the eye-opening games like UO, EQ and WoW were at their time.
We want the genre to produce games that are as fun to play as the eye-opening games like UO, EQ and WoW were at their time.
And while similar topics get posted sometimes by same or different people (that's the way the Internet works, son - it's like a bigger version of Instagram and Snapchat), we all share one thing in common: we're looking for a game that's as fun to play as the eye-opening games like UO, EQ and WoW were at their time.
And since you looped us all together anyway, using 'we' is okay.
And we've run out of new things to complain about because every new MMO that comes out seems to run out of new things to screw up that the last ones hadn't.
I hope this has given you some insight into how us old folks operate. Now I'm going to drink some damn prune juice, read my Facebook feed and wonder why your generation has done such stupid crap like making selfies a thing and Justin Bieber popular.
These words right here sums it up now....not just for exploration. I love to be able to find an answer for a quest or whatever on the net. But now we have a toilet bowl full of "the easy way".
"This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."