I disagree with the guest. I believe that hero games are mutually exclusive with non hero games. I believe that a be the hero game is targeting a younger demographic.
A game where you focus on team work and perhaps play a well defined role or simply play your field position in a fight is more suited to those out of the self centred teens. Achievement is in successful team work, not idolisation or validation of oneself that is needed by someone that is not comfortable yet with their adult identity.
So my argument then is that the majority of games target a young audience and it would be good to see some more games less focussed on solo mechanics.
I just cannot agree with anything you wrote. More so, for what I highlighted in red.
Funny, I look at the post by rounner and can see much there that seems true. Particularly the parts you highlighted in red.
I am pretty sure that 'hero" games are targeted at the adolescent demographic, I am also willing to believe that developers recognise that this target demographic is indeed self-centered, somewhat narcissistic and not yet comfortable with an adult identity.
For myself I play MMORPGs for the immersion in a virtual world and the opportunity to engage with a community. I also like long progression to a personal or shared goal. I have no desire to be the 'hero' or to 'win' by defeating others.
If anybody can do that deed, its not heroic, its mundane. If you dont risk big, its not heroic, its routine. If you run fedex quests for 5 gold pieces and praise, you are not a hero, you are delivery boy with a soft spot for flattery.
If you still buy that hero's nonsense, it says a lot about you but nothing good. You are not the guy I'd like to play with, you are NPC without quest for me, you are no fun. I'd take mechanically inferior game with interesting community over polished title with crowd of faceless heroes.
I like MMOs that allow me to be a part of a reality alternate to that of my own day to day existence. I don't play MMOs to be the hero. If my actions in game make me "heroic" then so be it, but I don't want my destiny to be pre-determined for me. I think the struggle to survive and even excel in a foreign/hostile environment is reward enough.
Lately, I've been more into smaller-scale online multiplayer games that allow this kind of gameplay over "MMORPGs". See "7 Days to Die" for more of what I look for (which this and games like it should be covered here). It is more MMO than any MMO I've played in a long time.
I am always looking for something without the god complex. but seriously, Zombies? Far as I am concerned, anything with the word Zombies in it should be relegated to the trash bin because that is exactly what it is.
"MMORPGs have changed compared to what they used to be. They are now much more story driven, providing the player with a rich immersive story, but are we losing the core aspect of MMORPGs because of it?"
So what?? Things changes, simple as that. There is + and there is - to this. Adapt.
"MMORPGs are suppose to be social games, yet the God Complex is removing that aspect. You can’t be the hero if your friend or a group of people are also heroes. Do you agree that the God Complex is something that should stay in single player games and should have never been introduced into MMOs?"
And what do su suggest?? To make only you hero and no other player in the game? Wow.
The following three comments "get it" for me. I can be the "hero" in any game but I want to play in a world where I have the choice as to whose "hero" or role I want to play(the hero that can make/repair the gear to let someone else go and kill that dragon before it attacks my village, or the "hero" that not only has learned the skills to make "godlike" potions to revive downed players but also has the patience to gather the mats necessary for them whether that be through simple gathering or farming them on a plot of land.
Don't even get me started on the simple joy of being able to take a boat out on a lake, river, sea and fish for trophies or that fish that swallowed some pirate's treasure map and then search for it.
There are so many roles a player can play in a mmorpg, what I find most annoying is that the only role that seems to count anymore, is the one that requires a player to race to end level and beat the "world boss" before they race to the next game's new xpac, rinse and repeat. The whole point for me of playing in a mmorpg is "living" in its world.
Imo, this is what UO did right, they hooked us with homes and being able to have our own businesses but then they got lost along the way and started destroying our ability to run those businesses by nerfing the need for them in the community so that the endgame "heroes" could get their fix and move on...
For some reason, Ultima Online Pre-EA comes to mind... Before the Age of Shadows expansion, etc... Want to be just a crafter, go ahead... Want to be an archer, go ahead. Want to be everything, sorry, you cannot master everything... Ahh the good ole days.
Personally, I dislike being a mirror image of another "hero", doing the same thing, and getting the same response. I want to play an MMO that allows each character to be unique, like in reality. Whenever I play an MMO nowadays I can't feel special because others have already done it. That hard quest you just completed or that awesome skill combo you just did has already been done so there is nothing to be proud of. It makes the games boring and I just don't want to play them anymore.
The root of the problem, IMO, is that almost all MMO games are made to gather a profit. The easiest way to do that is to create a combat-oriented game that brings out competitiveness in each player. Then people begin to pay cash to get ahead and post guides online about the best skill tree or equipment, then you have every single avatar looking the exact same with the same stats. Then it just becomes a farm fest, where whoever can secure the best mob spawn points can stay in the lead. I want to have fun in an MMO, but when you have to farm like to that just to be the same as everyone else then it becomes work, which I don't like to do. This is why I stopped playing older MMO's and have only been looking to start ones that have recently been released. A temporary fix, but it's the best I can do ATM.
My ideal game is one where:
- Graphics are top notch to provide greater immersion
- When you start the game you pick your race and appearance only
- Classes are gained through quest
- Greater variety of classes, including classes that don't specialize in combat Ex: Merchant?
- A system that supports the non-combat classes and allows them to progress along with the combat classes
- Previous quest and actions affect what other quest become available
After looking around for a while, one of the more interesting MMO's that I have seen in development is Citadel of Sorcery (COS). Seems like it would actually be fun to play and wouldn't become quite as repetitive as others. http://www.citadelofsorcery.com/
Alright I'm going to throw in my two cents in this game
-Everyone CAN be the hero, everyone -SHOULD- matter, and -BEING- the -HERO- should not -JUST- depend on -DOING ONE THING-
What do I mean by this?
I always loved Tabula Rasa's approach to the Heroic storyline, everyone was in it together, we all were one big cog in the machine to help get earth back. For the life of me I do NOT understand the LAZY narratives that developers choose to put in meaning that they treat the mmo world storylines like an instanced story. You are the only person and everyone else doesn't matter. What kind of lazy stupid crap is that?
Lets take FFXIV for example? Lets say those battles in Castrum Meriandrum (sp?) in the cutscenes during the run through those areas are filled with all the NEW Warriors of Light, yep that's right, all eight of us at that moment, including everyone else that is a player in the game is treated as a Warrior of Light. The Garleans and Bahamut fucked things up and in response the three City States got together and said; You know what, last time we had four Warriors of Light, this time we are going to have as many as we can find. We are going to help these adventurers so that they all become shining beacons of good in this word and help us kick the ever shit out of the assholes that threaten us from now till the end of time.
So now you have a joint effort between all of the nations to join in and start guiding the new fresh adventurers with so much potential to be a Warrior of Light. As you walk through the streets City of Heroes style random npcs are having conversations about the new tri city state initiative, people are excited, children are playing out in the street with each other Divinity's Reach style "I'm gonna be a warrior of Light! Me too! Me three! We are gonna have a Free Company and save the world! Yay!"
And guess what, the Warrior of Light DOESN'T HAVE to be the one that is on the front lines fighting! The Blacksmith that makes those awesome weapons that helped save us? Warrior of Light! The cook that helped feed the front lines?! Warrior of Light! The doctor that kept everyone healthy with his fantastic antidotes?!; WARRIOR OF LIGHT! There is no -ONE- way just to become one type of Warrior of Light, there are many ways! Why because on Hydaelyn we have lots of adventurers who are are special! And after getting our asses kicked in 1.0 we are going to say "Fuck that!" and create an army of 10,000 Warriors of Light bitches and save Eorzea!.
FFXIV is NOT a pvp game with true factions! I SWEAR I don't get why mmos like this and true factionless mmos like GW2 and others just don't have everyone fighting on the same side. And for FFXIV make players famous through their actions - give Johnny a reason to be the best blacksmith on the server! Why? Because he makes the best swords that help the Warriors of Light on the front lines! So guess what, Johnny is a Warrior of Light, because without him we wouldnt have the weapons we needed to fight off the newest big bad threat. I don't see why themepark mmos can't take a more sandbox approach to their storylines. There is no reason why you couldn't have the game itself acknowledge individuals, guilds and parties for their actions by the npcs! What does it take for a high achieving Free Company to be randomly acknowledged in chatter by npcs while they walk down the street? What resources could it take that would trigger a text response by npcs to a players actions such small touches would be appreciated by players and recognized!
If you want to have "achievements" have the "achievement" of being recognized by npcs on the server. Make people rivals so that everyone wants to be recognized by the npcs on the server and make it so that other players see it! Competition doesn't have to be about killing each other, you can have indirect competition by having npcs celebrate your achievements to others on the server through what you did. Don't make everyone feel special by acting like there are no heroes in the world but you! Make them feel special by acknowledging that everyone CAN be a hero through their actions by the acknowledgement. from the residents of the game world itself. If anyone is familiar with the anime Log Horizon you will know what I mean from the dichotomy of the "Adventurers - which are players and the "People of the Land" - which are the world npcs. Adventurers in that world are treated like superheroes by the npcs (People of the Land)
I think if themeparks want to stay relevant they should start putting in reactions that make the npcs of the word celebrate the players. You could even design content around this having things like games ala the colosseums of ancient Rome. Imagine WoW's pvp battegrounds being taken seriously by npcs who then start to bet on the winners? Imagine the instanced pvp battles in FFXIV being spoken about by npcs walking down the street in random chatter? "Oh, that guy KillerZ was awesome in the Wolf Den last week!" or "That Free Company Heavensent really dissappointed me in that Free Company battle, I lost so much money!"
Think about the possibilities and better yet, this is not tech we've never seen before! Its already been done, it adds immersion and it gives you easy content and a reason to add so much more to your themepark world making it feel less static.
Imagine this, a server invasion event where the first FC to beat it gets a parade thrown for it by the npcs? Come on!
Ask yourselves; WHY CAN'T MMO HEROIC STORYLINES BE LESS LEGEND OF ZELDA AND MORE LIKE THE AVENGERS OR JUSTICE LEAGUE UNLIMITED?! THE JUSTICE LEAGUE/AVENGERS IS JUST AS COOL BECAUSE THERE ARE ALOT OF PEOPLE SAVING THE WORLD NOT JUST ONE!
Developers of mmos, I am looking at you...
Any mmo worth its salt should be like a good prostitute when it comes to its game world- One hell of a faker, and a damn good shaker!
No problem with the goal of a game being that of becoming a hero. The problem with today's MMO's is that everyone gets to become a hero. Being a hero should be limited to the best in the game according to how well you play the game. That being the case, becoming a hero would be a venture worth pursuing. As it is, MMO's have no real purpose since everyone gets to acquire the BiS gear and achieve the same end objectives. I find no fun or challenge in that at all. its just dumbed down game play designed to satisfy the masses.
Comments
Funny, I look at the post by rounner and can see much there that seems true. Particularly the parts you highlighted in red.
I am pretty sure that 'hero" games are targeted at the adolescent demographic, I am also willing to believe that developers recognise that this target demographic is indeed self-centered, somewhat narcissistic and not yet comfortable with an adult identity.
For myself I play MMORPGs for the immersion in a virtual world and the opportunity to engage with a community. I also like long progression to a personal or shared goal. I have no desire to be the 'hero' or to 'win' by defeating others.
If anybody can do that deed, its not heroic, its mundane. If you dont risk big, its not heroic, its routine. If you run fedex quests for 5 gold pieces and praise, you are not a hero, you are delivery boy with a soft spot for flattery.
If you still buy that hero's nonsense, it says a lot about you but nothing good. You are not the guy I'd like to play with, you are NPC without quest for me, you are no fun. I'd take mechanically inferior game with interesting community over polished title with crowd of faceless heroes.
so, you wanna play the farmer who's land is totaly destroyed while deathwing attacked?
or rather random village people who got killed while arthas started his invasion?
or more the pigfarmer who's animals died when the legion attacked?
i don't see the reason in playing those chars
playing the hero in rpgs and games is nothing new. most likely because no one wants to play the loser ^^ most got RL for that already
"I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"
I am always looking for something without the god complex. but seriously, Zombies? Far as I am concerned, anything with the word Zombies in it should be relegated to the trash bin because that is exactly what it is.
Another post without any purpose.
"MMORPGs have changed compared to what they used to be. They are now much more story driven, providing the player with a rich immersive story, but are we losing the core aspect of MMORPGs because of it?"
So what?? Things changes, simple as that. There is + and there is - to this. Adapt.
"MMORPGs are suppose to be social games, yet the God Complex is removing that aspect. You can’t be the hero if your friend or a group of people are also heroes. Do you agree that the God Complex is something that should stay in single player games and should have never been introduced into MMOs?"
And what do su suggest?? To make only you hero and no other player in the game? Wow.
Lost my interest to buther further.
You'll play them and you'll like it because you're supposed to be a pretenti... I mean sophisticated grown-up, dagnabbit!
The following three comments "get it" for me. I can be the "hero" in any game but I want to play in a world where I have the choice as to whose "hero" or role I want to play(the hero that can make/repair the gear to let someone else go and kill that dragon before it attacks my village, or the "hero" that not only has learned the skills to make "godlike" potions to revive downed players but also has the patience to gather the mats necessary for them whether that be through simple gathering or farming them on a plot of land.
Don't even get me started on the simple joy of being able to take a boat out on a lake, river, sea and fish for trophies or that fish that swallowed some pirate's treasure map and then search for it.
There are so many roles a player can play in a mmorpg, what I find most annoying is that the only role that seems to count anymore, is the one that requires a player to race to end level and beat the "world boss" before they race to the next game's new xpac, rinse and repeat. The whole point for me of playing in a mmorpg is "living" in its world.
Imo, this is what UO did right, they hooked us with homes and being able to have our own businesses but then they got lost along the way and started destroying our ability to run those businesses by nerfing the need for them in the community so that the endgame "heroes" could get their fix and move on...
--------------------------------------
ZombieKen writes:
"In an MMORPG, I don't want to play a game, I want to play in the gameworld."
Cecropia writes:
"when I hop into an MMO, I'm looking for more than just a game; I want to experience a "world"."
robert154e writes:
For some reason, Ultima Online Pre-EA comes to mind... Before the Age of Shadows expansion, etc... Want to be just a crafter, go ahead... Want to be an archer, go ahead. Want to be everything, sorry, you cannot master everything... Ahh the good ole days.
-----------------------------------------
Personally, I dislike being a mirror image of another "hero", doing the same thing, and getting the same response. I want to play an MMO that allows each character to be unique, like in reality. Whenever I play an MMO nowadays I can't feel special because others have already done it. That hard quest you just completed or that awesome skill combo you just did has already been done so there is nothing to be proud of. It makes the games boring and I just don't want to play them anymore.
The root of the problem, IMO, is that almost all MMO games are made to gather a profit. The easiest way to do that is to create a combat-oriented game that brings out competitiveness in each player. Then people begin to pay cash to get ahead and post guides online about the best skill tree or equipment, then you have every single avatar looking the exact same with the same stats. Then it just becomes a farm fest, where whoever can secure the best mob spawn points can stay in the lead. I want to have fun in an MMO, but when you have to farm like to that just to be the same as everyone else then it becomes work, which I don't like to do. This is why I stopped playing older MMO's and have only been looking to start ones that have recently been released. A temporary fix, but it's the best I can do ATM.
My ideal game is one where:
- Graphics are top notch to provide greater immersion
- When you start the game you pick your race and appearance only
- Classes are gained through quest
- Greater variety of classes, including classes that don't specialize in combat Ex: Merchant?
- A system that supports the non-combat classes and allows them to progress along with the combat classes
- Previous quest and actions affect what other quest become available
After looking around for a while, one of the more interesting MMO's that I have seen in development is Citadel of Sorcery (COS). Seems like it would actually be fun to play and wouldn't become quite as repetitive as others. http://www.citadelofsorcery.com/
Alright I'm going to throw in my two cents in this game
-Everyone CAN be the hero, everyone -SHOULD- matter, and -BEING- the -HERO- should not -JUST- depend on -DOING ONE THING-
What do I mean by this?
I always loved Tabula Rasa's approach to the Heroic storyline, everyone was in it together, we all were one big cog in the machine to help get earth back. For the life of me I do NOT understand the LAZY narratives that developers choose to put in meaning that they treat the mmo world storylines like an instanced story. You are the only person and everyone else doesn't matter. What kind of lazy stupid crap is that?
Lets take FFXIV for example? Lets say those battles in Castrum Meriandrum (sp?) in the cutscenes during the run through those areas are filled with all the NEW Warriors of Light, yep that's right, all eight of us at that moment, including everyone else that is a player in the game is treated as a Warrior of Light. The Garleans and Bahamut fucked things up and in response the three City States got together and said; You know what, last time we had four Warriors of Light, this time we are going to have as many as we can find. We are going to help these adventurers so that they all become shining beacons of good in this word and help us kick the ever shit out of the assholes that threaten us from now till the end of time.
So now you have a joint effort between all of the nations to join in and start guiding the new fresh adventurers with so much potential to be a Warrior of Light. As you walk through the streets City of Heroes style random npcs are having conversations about the new tri city state initiative, people are excited, children are playing out in the street with each other Divinity's Reach style "I'm gonna be a warrior of Light! Me too! Me three! We are gonna have a Free Company and save the world! Yay!"
And guess what, the Warrior of Light DOESN'T HAVE to be the one that is on the front lines fighting! The Blacksmith that makes those awesome weapons that helped save us? Warrior of Light! The cook that helped feed the front lines?! Warrior of Light! The doctor that kept everyone healthy with his fantastic antidotes?!; WARRIOR OF LIGHT! There is no -ONE- way just to become one type of Warrior of Light, there are many ways! Why because on Hydaelyn we have lots of adventurers who are are special! And after getting our asses kicked in 1.0 we are going to say "Fuck that!" and create an army of 10,000 Warriors of Light bitches and save Eorzea!.
FFXIV is NOT a pvp game with true factions! I SWEAR I don't get why mmos like this and true factionless mmos like GW2 and others just don't have everyone fighting on the same side. And for FFXIV make players famous through their actions - give Johnny a reason to be the best blacksmith on the server! Why? Because he makes the best swords that help the Warriors of Light on the front lines! So guess what, Johnny is a Warrior of Light, because without him we wouldnt have the weapons we needed to fight off the newest big bad threat. I don't see why themepark mmos can't take a more sandbox approach to their storylines. There is no reason why you couldn't have the game itself acknowledge individuals, guilds and parties for their actions by the npcs! What does it take for a high achieving Free Company to be randomly acknowledged in chatter by npcs while they walk down the street? What resources could it take that would trigger a text response by npcs to a players actions such small touches would be appreciated by players and recognized!
If you want to have "achievements" have the "achievement" of being recognized by npcs on the server. Make people rivals so that everyone wants to be recognized by the npcs on the server and make it so that other players see it! Competition doesn't have to be about killing each other, you can have indirect competition by having npcs celebrate your achievements to others on the server through what you did. Don't make everyone feel special by acting like there are no heroes in the world but you! Make them feel special by acknowledging that everyone CAN be a hero through their actions by the acknowledgement. from the residents of the game world itself. If anyone is familiar with the anime Log Horizon you will know what I mean from the dichotomy of the "Adventurers - which are players and the "People of the Land" - which are the world npcs. Adventurers in that world are treated like superheroes by the npcs (People of the Land)
I think if themeparks want to stay relevant they should start putting in reactions that make the npcs of the word celebrate the players. You could even design content around this having things like games ala the colosseums of ancient Rome. Imagine WoW's pvp battegrounds being taken seriously by npcs who then start to bet on the winners? Imagine the instanced pvp battles in FFXIV being spoken about by npcs walking down the street in random chatter? "Oh, that guy KillerZ was awesome in the Wolf Den last week!" or "That Free Company Heavensent really dissappointed me in that Free Company battle, I lost so much money!"
Think about the possibilities and better yet, this is not tech we've never seen before! Its already been done, it adds immersion and it gives you easy content and a reason to add so much more to your themepark world making it feel less static.
Imagine this, a server invasion event where the first FC to beat it gets a parade thrown for it by the npcs? Come on!
Ask yourselves; WHY CAN'T MMO HEROIC STORYLINES BE LESS LEGEND OF ZELDA AND MORE LIKE THE AVENGERS OR JUSTICE LEAGUE UNLIMITED?! THE JUSTICE LEAGUE/AVENGERS IS JUST AS COOL BECAUSE THERE ARE ALOT OF PEOPLE SAVING THE WORLD NOT JUST ONE!
Developers of mmos, I am looking at you...
Any mmo worth its salt should be like a good prostitute when it comes to its game world- One hell of a faker, and a damn good shaker!
Any mmo worth its salt should be like a good prostitute when it comes to its game world- One hell of a faker, and a damn good shaker!
No problem with the goal of a game being that of becoming a hero. The problem with today's MMO's is that everyone gets to become a hero. Being a hero should be limited to the best in the game according to how well you play the game. That being the case, becoming a hero would be a venture worth pursuing. As it is, MMO's have no real purpose since everyone gets to acquire the BiS gear and achieve the same end objectives. I find no fun or challenge in that at all. its just dumbed down game play designed to satisfy the masses.