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Was there a post-themepark trend?
KenFisher
Member UncommonPosts: 5,035
Pardon another quick question.
I've seen posts talking about Themeparks fading from popularity, and a new trend toward Sandbox games.
I left the forum while the GW2 and TSW rivalry was hot. And since both of these are themeparks, although in their own flavor, I'm guessing it's safe to assume that these weren't part of the Sandbox trend (if there was one).
I know about The Repopulation. I've seen references to a 'Zombie Survival' game (maybe more than one), but I don't recall the name. I'm guessing some of the trend games were Kickstarter projects and might not have made it to release (yet).
What sort of games would be part of this Sandbox trend? Did it really happen? It would have been in the last 3 years.
I have a hard time sorting out what is and isn't trending, and what is just wishful thinking.
EDIT: just looked over the top-10 lists for votes and popularity. Archeage is the only one I spotted, and I know very little about that other than a pre-release video from ages ago (the dancing guy with the bucket on his head).
Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now working in Network Security. I don't Forum PVP. If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident. When I don't understand, I ask. Such is not intended as criticism.
Comments
Sandboxes have been kind of an MMO counterculture since at least 2003 when A Tale In the Desert and Wurm Online came out, then the Voxel school of MMOs got started in 2009 with Minecraft. But yeah they've had a boom recently, as several sandbox games which have been climbing their way up through kickstarter and greenlight, (except Landmark, which I think did only private promotions). Xsyon is the only one I've personally played - I was disappointed with the combat and the group nature of house building, but otherwise I liked it in Beta, and they've been actively expanding the feature-set since I tried it. Greedmonger is one I was following the development process of, but it's officially dead now. I think Fallen Earth is one of the zombie ones you mention. (Actually Xsyon has zombie-like humanoid monsters, though they weren't a huge element of the setting.)
Nope...and never really will
The minority speak loudly and think they set the trend. But the so called "Themepark MMOs" will keep outdoing these so called (failed) sandboxes.
I can't wait til they stop trying to compete and just make a sandbox style MMO with all of the above added. PVE when you want to and PvP. Just stop making it world wide and stop forcing it.
Cool info, thanks.
Where does Steam fit into this?
I don't understand 'GreenLight', and I've seen references to paid alpha? Devs are selling early access to testers? I'm not sure if I should admire fans for the dedication or frown at developer / publishers for monetization tactics.
The non-themepark trend is mostly an indie trend. They will probably never be as popular as themepark games, not only because they generally lack the money to reach their true potential, but because they usually feature forms of gameplay that are more complicated, and less forgiving.
Most of the popular ones are kickstarters or being developed by small studios and aren't complete yet. Over the course of the next 2-3 years, probably 5-10 will release. If a few manage to be successful, you can be sure we will see more.
Greenlight is (or at least was, it has waned in this last year) primarily for helping indies get their games made and out on the Steam store. As with all forms of crowd funding/ pre-purchasing, it''s up to you to do your own homework. Steam has mentioned that they're going to discontinue it, but that hasn't stopped "early access" from proliferating.
For some reason people have decided that they would much rather spend a large amount before a game is finished (hundres or thousands of dollars) and then have a "F2P" game at release (instead of $50-$60).
Helpful thanks! That makes sense. Especially with crowd funding available.
the most games calling themselfs "sandbox games" are hardly no sandbox games at all. they are themepark games with sandbox-like skillsystems but that's all about sandbox you will find in those games. if you really want to see the perfect definition of a sandbox game than look at EvE Online or the upcomming Albion Online. ArcheAge is more another Themepark-Quest-Hub mmo with a sandbox-ish character - / skillsystem, open world pvp and player driven economic but thats closer to a sandbox game than the most other so-called-sandboxes.
it's always disappointing when a new mmo is anounced and they call it (again) the next sandbox or new kind of mmo just to see that it is a themepark questhub game with a sandbox-ish skill system
Ultima Online is still alive and well...
Failed Sandbox mmo's ?? Last I seen UO still has a sub model.....please research before making such comments...Oh and let's not forget EVE......
yep, real sandbox games are running fine and there is nothing to complain about. but the reason there are always comming out themepark game is because "the cow isn't drained yet". a quote from a game producer. as long as the game industry is able to make such a big profit from f2p and cash shops we will barely see ne "game types" or sandboxes
sandbox games for the most part have been petty terrible. most of the gamers that post here claim to just want to play sandbox games yet most sandbox games seem to not have very many people playing them....
I'd hardly call Minecraft a failure. It is literally a recognized brand name on the level of World of Warcraft. It literally caused an entire wave of block building games to be born. Terraria wouldn't exist if it wasn't for Minecraft. I also doubt EQ:Next would have ever took on the form it did without the direct impact of sandbox MMOs on the market. Developers were paying attention precisely because sandboxes were succeeding in areas that themeparks had failed miserably.
After more than 10 years of developers attempting (and failing) to replicate the WoW phenomena, I do agree that we are probably finally moving into a post themepark MMORPG era. However I believe it's real stretch to automatically assume that sandbox games are going to be the primary new offering. I'd say that things are leaning more toward MOBAs, other essentially lobby based shooters, and MMO games which can be played on portable devices.
im not sure what i think exactly about the sandbox games.
if you asked me, my definition of a sandbox game is allowing the player to do what he wants from the time he logs in. if you want to just farm resources your whole experience, and honestly take a shot at dictating the prices in the market, you can do that. if you want to powehunt and gain all the acheivements from dungeons and gear and resources aquired in the dungeons you can do that. if you wanted to run a guild that focused on family and community player run events you can do that.. but in all honesty you could always do all of that in the themepark games too.. so ive never really understood whats seperating the 2.
sandbox
resource gathering
pvp
pve
guilds
take your cloths off and dance in the middle of towns
themeparks
resource gathering
pvp
pve
guilds
take your cloths off and dance in the middle of towns.
what am i missing from sandbox that makes a sandbox a sandbox?
It's really about money not popularity. The idea of the WoW-killer is dead and with it the the hundreds of millions investors were willing to throw at new themeparks. For the first time in a long time there are no big budget themeparks in development anywhere in the West.
The themepark market is flooded with all those would be WoW-killers that are now F2P. The sandbox market is crowded with garbage like DFUW and Mortal Online. Which means: with successful crowdfunding campaign anyone can be a contender in the sandbox space.
The hype surrounding sandboxes is there because there are actually sandbox games in development, as opposed to themeparks. It could be 10 years before we see another big budget Western made themepark.
I hate the quoting system on this forum... I can't delete nested quotes without screwing up the only one I want to keep. Ugh. Anyway.
OP this is your answer. There aren't really any brand new themepark games in development right now. A number of the big themeparks either just came out with expansions are will later this year (TERA, GW2, SWTOR, FFXIV), but that's really the extent of current themepark development. It's an overcrowded market and develpers are starting to realize that (I say starting because we've only recently begun to find out about projects that developers have been working on for years, so it'd be more true to say they quietly realized that themeparks were an overcrowded market years ago).
Sandboxes are a genre that has been largely ignored for the past 10 years but has a lot of potential. For one thing when you get players really invested in the game world like sandboxes tend to do, players stick around longer. Then there's also the fact that sandboxes are cheaper to make and maintain simply because you're not constantly creating new instanced dungeon encounters. You give players the tools and they create the content. So that's really attractive to developers in comparison to the super expensive themeparks that are more likely to fail than anything else right now.
So most new games in development are different types of sandboxes right now. Some small company/low budget/crowdfunded sandboxes, some larger budget/normally funded games, most some sort of PvP of varying degrees of hardcore/not hardcore, and a couple PvE focused ones (EQN and one or two others I can't think of right now). If you take a look at this website's Top Voted Games - Development list, 6 of those 7 games qualify as sandbox. Then you also have things like Black Desert Online, a huge Korean game being released there in a month and here soon after. There are more if you look around at various MMO sites (and this one) but you get the idea.
For my use of the term in MMORPG context (as opposed to SP console RPGs which use the term differently), the key defining elements of a Sandbox are lack of primary emphasis on developer provided content, along with game mechanics that provide the player a way of interacting with other players and the gameworld itself.
In a Themepark, a person plays the game by consuming content (pre-planned activity and the related storyline) that the developer has provided.
In a Sandbox, a person plays in the gameworld, with little if any emphasis on content (pre-planned activity and the related storyline).
I know from talking with others, that my perspective is far from universal. Personally I avoid the "S" word like the plague when possible, because I'm never quite sure what the other person is referring to.
Hmm, that's a surprising way to describe it. I'd go as far as to say the _only_ good sandboxes I've ever played were the ones that were heavy on the pre-planned activity and storyline. Castleville, for example - one of the only games I'd ever put up with all that Facebook begging/sharing shit for, because it's a sandbox with a really endearing and entertaining story/quest sequence that keeps you building and farming and expanding and all those other sandboxy things for months. The Sims and Viva Pinata are examples of the opposite - sandboxes that get old really quick because they just don't have enough guidance to help the player form goals, pursue them, and feel rewarded when they accomplish them.
A Tale In the Desert, one of the two longest-running sandbox MMOs, added more structure over the years in response to player feedback; last I knew it had grown a nice leveling system where the player can choose from a list of goals and achieve a certain number of them to earn each level.
I think there is. Themeparks aren't dead, but "WoW-Killers" certainly are. I think the big AAA WoW styled themepark mmorpg is a thing of the past. At least there are no games by big publishers in development currently and I think it is going to stay this way until some innovation comes around. Of course the existing game are going to stick around. I think that TESO put the last nail in the coffin and projects like this are not considered profitable anymore.
But this is not necessary a bad thing and I would say it is even good for the genre in general that we finally got rid of "WoW-Killers" that have made the genre stagnate in the last 10 years. Mmorpgs are now more or less a niche genre again that is left to indie developers and that means more varied and innovative gameplay. I hope these kickstarter-mmos will make it.
When forumers use sandbox they mean "A game that is exactly how I want", especially if it has FFA PvP.
When AAA MMO developers use sandbox they mean "We opened up some skill and build options, added some crafting, and maybe tried to make guilds matter more than the previous developer did".
When AAA single player developers use sandbox they mean "We just really liked skyrim/GTA/whatever, but those were released a really long time ago. So we made a new one"
When Indy developers use sandbox they mean "we didn't have the money to script up a bunch of content and quests. So we gave you ways to make buildings and kill each other".
When marketers use sandbox they mean "LOL we're stuck promoting another bad game, but this sandbox word is trending"
When EA use sandbox they mean "Zombies"
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EDIT to be more on topic:
I think that MMO's going to sandbox worlds after people get bored of themepark is kind of a silly dream.
Devs seem to be going the direction(or wanting to go) of taking a mostly single player game and adding some multiplayer elements while you go single player. Darksouls and similar.
That or they're going(want) the direction of being more MOBA like. Players continously interacting for 20 to 50 mins at a time, with the players being able to customize themselves some how.
Or if they have a building game. Adding multiplayer to work together/show off, and ways to share what you're done.
Practice doesn't make perfect, practice makes permanent.
"At one point technology meant making tech that could get to the moon, now it means making tech that could get you a taxi."
OMG, that is WONDERFUL !!!
I have seen all of those. Well, except the Zombies part. I was out of the loop when those popularized.
Spot on.
This post is so true, especially the one about lacking the money to make content.
inb4 some kid tries to say there shouldn't be "developer content" in a sandbox game.