Originally posted by Rhoklaw Never saw that video and I understand the need for having clientside calculations being done to resolve unnecessary latency issues, specifically in large scale PvP games. I'm sure a lot of gaming developers could have done this a long time ago, but realized that players dealing with ridiculous lag was more detrimental to the game then the possibility of hackers being prevalent. I guess we'll see if CSE fixed the latency problems of server side calculations for things such as physics.
It's more prevalent than you think. There's even people selling these hacks openly. I just found a youtube video advertising hacks for Guild Wars 2. I would link it here, but I don't want to give anybody ideas.
As for potential latency issues, I think these guys have that under control. They are doing countless stress tests and it seems to have less lag than anything out there with a thousand or so players in a small area. That's pretty impressive and what I look forward to the most in this game.
That's impressive to watch and I'm in favor of anything that puts a stop to cheating. It's also nice to see they implemented character-to-character collision.
It will be interesting to see what happens when we experience client side lag though. I know the servers can handle large scale battles, but not everyone's client is going to be able to. I wonder how the client will adjust to our positions being different from where the servers track us.
It will be interesting to see if they offload portions of this to the client near release.
If I were a betting man I'd say - they probably will. Once your servers start to choke it affects the entire playerbase - so you have to pick the lesser of evils
Just imagine 1000 players in one area and 300 of them are running with a hacked client - yeah suddenly the overhead on the server of tracking per client physics and positioning becomes a real problem
Also the speedhack is the most common exploit and the way majority of games handle it is by looking at the rate of change in client position - once the flag is triggered you get booted and in some games autobanned. This is far easier on the sever than what they are trying to do with approximating the real client position - that's way heavier on the server cpu
I'm curious, do you know of any games that can handle 1000 players in one area?
It will be interesting to see if they offload portions of this to the client near release.
If I were a betting man I'd say - they probably will. Once your servers start to choke it affects the entire playerbase - so you have to pick the lesser of evils
Just imagine 1000 players in one area and 300 of them are running with a hacked client - yeah suddenly the overhead on the server of tracking per client physics and positioning becomes a real problem
Also the speedhack is the most common exploit and the way majority of games handle it is by looking at the rate of change in client position - once the flag is triggered you get booted and in some games autobanned. This is far easier on the sever than what they are trying to do with approximating the real client position - that's way heavier on the server cpu
CPU and memory performance & size have grown quite a bit since older mmos have had to face this challenge. I have confidence that the servers of today can handle the load. And I'm pretty sure these guys are testing the hell out of it before release.
It will be interesting to see if they offload portions of this to the client near release.
If I were a betting man I'd say - they probably will. Once your servers start to choke it affects the entire playerbase - so you have to pick the lesser of evils
Just imagine 1000 players in one area and 300 of them are running with a hacked client - yeah suddenly the overhead on the server of tracking per client physics and positioning becomes a real problem
Also the speedhack is the most common exploit and the way majority of games handle it is by looking at the rate of change in client position - once the flag is triggered you get booted and in some games autobanned. This is far easier on the sever than what they are trying to do with approximating the real client position - that's way heavier on the server cpu
CPU and memory performance & size have grown quite a bit since older mmos have had to face this challenge. I have confidence that the servers of today can handle the load. And I'm pretty sure these guys are testing the hell out of it before release.
The problem is always code. The servers will continue to be faster - but again showing this with 4 characters on a dev s erver with unfisinshed code vs final release on live server.... two diffrent things. I hope they can pull it off, I remain skeptical.
In one of their videos they stated they were able to test the server code with 800 characters made up of alpha testers plus bots. So they can do some level of massive battle simulation testing. Granted it won't be the same all live players but it's not just a handful of devs logged in at the same time.
It will be interesting to see if they offload portions of this to the client near release.
If I were a betting man I'd say - they probably will. Once your servers start to choke it affects the entire playerbase - so you have to pick the lesser of evils
Just imagine 1000 players in one area and 300 of them are running with a hacked client - yeah suddenly the overhead on the server of tracking per client physics and positioning becomes a real problem
I had the same thought about the overhead but then thought they do check the position and movement for each of those 1k player no matter if they cheat or not. That means the server load is bit higher by default which might lead to problems So a worst case scenario should be in the (so to say) calculations-used-per-player calculation.
And imho a no on the move it to client side near release. That would screw them hard because it kind of is a selling point and it would mean that they will have to invest more into GMs or tools to find/deal with cheaters. So yeah, my guess is thats the last option if any at all.
Btw. it would be nice to see the code of how they do it ( I know, won't happen) or know how many calculations or even lines of code(for an approx) are added if someone cheats. Maybe someone can ask this if they do an AMA.
The problem is always code. The servers will continue to be faster - but again showing this with 4 characters on a dev s erver with unfisinshed code vs final release on live server.... two diffrent things. I hope they can pull it off, I remain skeptical.
Actually, they've been testing load with about a thousand users & bots. But we're both probably talking out of our asses since neither of us have actually seen the results of these load tests they've been performing. The proof is in the pudding. I'm just going off by what they've said so far.
The problem is always code. The servers will continue to be faster - but again showing this with 4 characters on a dev s erver with unfisinshed code vs final release on live server.... two diffrent things. I hope they can pull it off, I remain skeptical.
Actually, they've been testing load with about a thousand users & bots. But we're both probably talking out of our asses since neither of us have actually seen the results of these load tests they've been performing. The proof is in the pudding. I'm just going off by what they've said so far.
And bots may or may not put the same amount of stress on a server as a real player.
Anyway. The last time I played a game that tried this there were pretty bad rubberbanding issues during certain times.. Passing a player especially was bad. You would think your were walking by on your screen but server side you kept walking into the player so you continuously would get yanked back.
The problem is always code. The servers will continue to be faster - but again showing this with 4 characters on a dev s erver with unfisinshed code vs final release on live server.... two diffrent things. I hope they can pull it off, I remain skeptical.
Actually, they've been testing load with about a thousand users & bots. But we're both probably talking out of our asses since neither of us have actually seen the results of these load tests they've been performing. The proof is in the pudding. I'm just going off by what they've said so far.
And bots may or may not put the same amount of stress on a server as a real player.
Anyway. The last time I played a game that tried this there were pretty bad rubberbanding issues during certain times.. Passing a player especially was bad. You would think your were walking by on your screen but server side you kept walking into the player so you continuously would get yanked back.
I can see why they need to use bots with such a small budget and playing community right now. That's why it will be important to open the floodgates for players during beta so that we can really stomp on this system and see how it holds up.
For those of you who haven't seen it, here's some awesome commentary on the physics in this game and how it prevents all sorts of cheating: link
Unlike most other MMOs out there, the physics is going to be locked down on the server.
This will lead to some serious desynching for slower connections.
You mean you haven't gotten Google Fiber yet?! :P Sucks to be you. But seriously, how many people are on slower connections these days with high speed broadband access everywhere?
I guess we will see once it have people from all places pounding it raw... It it works, good for them but i can understand that nobody else want to be the first to try as it is a fairly substantial investment in something that might turn out crap. Much safer to rely on things like fairfight to do statistical flagging and have normal CS terminate the offenders.
For those of you who haven't seen it, here's some awesome commentary on the physics in this game and how it prevents all sorts of cheating: link
Unlike most other MMOs out there, the physics is going to be locked down on the server.
This will lead to some serious desynching for slower connections.
You mean you haven't gotten Google Fiber yet?! :P Sucks to be you. But seriously, how many people are on slower connections these days with high speed broadband access everywhere?
You would be surprised.. Many areas still only have access to 3mb DSL lines that are oversold and congested everyday. Others are stuck with a monopoly that charge an arm and a leg for decent speeds. There is a town near me that only has a cable company and their 15/2 package is $100.
The US is pretty horrible in the broadband rankings.
For those of you who haven't seen it, here's some awesome commentary on the physics in this game and how it prevents all sorts of cheating: link
Unlike most other MMOs out there, the physics is going to be locked down on the server.
This will lead to some serious desynching for slower connections.
You mean you haven't gotten Google Fiber yet?! :P Sucks to be you. But seriously, how many people are on slower connections these days with high speed broadband access everywhere?
You would be surprised.. Many areas still only have access to 3mb DSL lines that are oversold and congested everyday. Others are stuck with a monopoly that charge an arm and a leg for decent speeds. There is a town near me that only has a cable company and their 15/2 package is $100.
The US is pretty horrible in the broadband rankings.
All serious gamers need to move to Canada now!
We will throw in free health care as an incentive if you act soon!
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
For those of you who haven't seen it, here's some awesome commentary on the physics in this game and how it prevents all sorts of cheating: link
Unlike most other MMOs out there, the physics is going to be locked down on the server.
This will lead to some serious desynching for slower connections.
You mean you haven't gotten Google Fiber yet?! :P Sucks to be you. But seriously, how many people are on slower connections these days with high speed broadband access everywhere?
You would be surprised.. Many areas still only have access to 3mb DSL lines that are oversold and congested everyday. Others are stuck with a monopoly that charge an arm and a leg for decent speeds. There is a town near me that only has a cable company and their 15/2 package is $100.
The US is pretty horrible in the broadband rankings.
+1
I wouldn't be surprised if some number of players are still running xp or just running old machines. Everyone can't even afford a high speed connection or may see gaming as a low priority but still want to play from time to time.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
Game is going to be a blast. I find it off reading comments about taking it safe and not trying new tech and new design ... because the last 10 years of clones and crap has taken us where? An mmo world of watered down clones of each other. I still have the least worry of any KS game with CU than any other. I still hope to see a few succeed if only to impact the direction of future mmorpgs.
My first mmo was Asheron's call which had collision. Terribly ancient mechanics on all fronts but most games since (luckily CoH had it too) ignored this. The tactics alone created from collision makes other games pale in comparison. Taunt is a lazy mechanic. A real tank in a real mmo uses their position to create space. Blocking doorways and pinch points is a common tactic in real life and most mmos can't even emulate it. A pvp game without is a penny arcade game and I can't believe we chocked that shit down for so many years.
For those of you who haven't seen it, here's some awesome commentary on the physics in this game and how it prevents all sorts of cheating: link
Unlike most other MMOs out there, the physics is going to be locked down on the server.
This will lead to some serious desynching for slower connections.
You mean you haven't gotten Google Fiber yet?! :P Sucks to be you. But seriously, how many people are on slower connections these days with high speed broadband access everywhere?
You would be surprised.. Many areas still only have access to 3mb DSL lines that are oversold and congested everyday. Others are stuck with a monopoly that charge an arm and a leg for decent speeds. There is a town near me that only has a cable company and their 15/2 package is $100.
The US is pretty horrible in the broadband rankings.
+1
I wouldn't be surprised if some number of players are still running xp or just running old machines. Everyone can't even afford a high speed connection or may see gaming as a low priority but still want to play from time to time.
Well games have a minimum spec rating for a reason. They have zero obligation towards potential players who do not meet minimum standards.
The evolution of mmo gaming is entirely dependent upon tech. We will only see the true immersive features we demand with evolving bandwidth and tech.
Windows XP? Does Sony or Microsoft give a rat's ass if their previous consoles can't run the latest games? Microsoft farts in the direction of people still running XP.
These guys have some bold words. They're telling other devs to fix their game from cheaters and their fix is theory at this point. Saying something like that should be done after the game is released in the wild and their technique has been proven to work. On the other hand it's good to see someone being proactive against cheaters rather then knee jerk reactive.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
While I would congratulate them on taking measures to reduce cheating before the game launches (many companies do not put any real effort on this issue until after launch), I would have to say that they do not show any real indication of expertise in this area. This may mean that much of what they are doing is just wasted effort, as it will not bring the intended results.
I will wait to see what the results are before condemning/praising them for their efforts. I would hope that they would do the same before patting themselves on the back. Dealing with cheaters is a non trivial issue, and it is easy to underestimate them, and not something that should be counted before you have results.
No surprise here, this is The all-mighty Mark Jacobs in work. The guys passions to squash hacking,exploiting,botting, gold spamming, and the such, is spectacular. Remember when they posted on Warhammer Onlines website daily about the amount of bots and gold sellers they banned on a daily basis? I sure do, and I absolutely loved it!
Mr. Jacobs is my last hope in the mmo genre. I just wish the guy had funding on par with Blizzard
You mean you haven't gotten Google Fiber yet?! :P Sucks to be you. But seriously, how many people are on slower connections these days with high speed broadband access everywhere?
You would be surprised.. Many areas still only have access to 3mb DSL lines that are oversold and congested everyday. Others are stuck with a monopoly that charge an arm and a leg for decent speeds. There is a town near me that only has a cable company and their 15/2 package is $100.
The US is pretty horrible in the broadband rankings.
All serious gamers need to move to Canada now!
We will throw in free health care as an incentive if you act soon!
Forget Canada, just move to Kansas City. That's where Google Fiber (1Gbps up and down stream) is at. They pretty much already have the entire city (and the surrounding suburbs) wired up to it now.
Comments
It's more prevalent than you think. There's even people selling these hacks openly. I just found a youtube video advertising hacks for Guild Wars 2. I would link it here, but I don't want to give anybody ideas.
As for potential latency issues, I think these guys have that under control. They are doing countless stress tests and it seems to have less lag than anything out there with a thousand or so players in a small area. That's pretty impressive and what I look forward to the most in this game.
That's impressive to watch and I'm in favor of anything that puts a stop to cheating. It's also nice to see they implemented character-to-character collision.
It will be interesting to see what happens when we experience client side lag though. I know the servers can handle large scale battles, but not everyone's client is going to be able to. I wonder how the client will adjust to our positions being different from where the servers track us.
I'm curious, do you know of any games that can handle 1000 players in one area?
CPU and memory performance & size have grown quite a bit since older mmos have had to face this challenge. I have confidence that the servers of today can handle the load. And I'm pretty sure these guys are testing the hell out of it before release.
In one of their videos they stated they were able to test the server code with 800 characters made up of alpha testers plus bots. So they can do some level of massive battle simulation testing. Granted it won't be the same all live players but it's not just a handful of devs logged in at the same time.
I had the same thought about the overhead but then thought they do check the position and movement for each of those 1k player no matter if they cheat or not. That means the server load is bit higher by default which might lead to problems So a worst case scenario should be in the (so to say) calculations-used-per-player calculation.
And imho a no on the move it to client side near release. That would screw them hard because it kind of is a selling point and it would mean that they will have to invest more into GMs or tools to find/deal with cheaters. So yeah, my guess is thats the last option if any at all.
Btw. it would be nice to see the code of how they do it ( I know, won't happen) or know how many calculations or even lines of code(for an approx) are added if someone cheats. Maybe someone can ask this if they do an AMA.
Actually, they've been testing load with about a thousand users & bots. But we're both probably talking out of our asses since neither of us have actually seen the results of these load tests they've been performing. The proof is in the pudding. I'm just going off by what they've said so far.
And bots may or may not put the same amount of stress on a server as a real player.
Anyway. The last time I played a game that tried this there were pretty bad rubberbanding issues during certain times.. Passing a player especially was bad. You would think your were walking by on your screen but server side you kept walking into the player so you continuously would get yanked back.
I can see why they need to use bots with such a small budget and playing community right now. That's why it will be important to open the floodgates for players during beta so that we can really stomp on this system and see how it holds up.
This will lead to some serious desynching for slower connections.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
You mean you haven't gotten Google Fiber yet?! :P Sucks to be you. But seriously, how many people are on slower connections these days with high speed broadband access everywhere?
This have been a good conversation
You would be surprised.. Many areas still only have access to 3mb DSL lines that are oversold and congested everyday. Others are stuck with a monopoly that charge an arm and a leg for decent speeds. There is a town near me that only has a cable company and their 15/2 package is $100.
The US is pretty horrible in the broadband rankings.
All serious gamers need to move to Canada now!
We will throw in free health care as an incentive if you act soon!
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
+1
I wouldn't be surprised if some number of players are still running xp or just running old machines. Everyone can't even afford a high speed connection or may see gaming as a low priority but still want to play from time to time.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
Good stuff. Love the "Fix your shit!" lol
Game is going to be a blast. I find it off reading comments about taking it safe and not trying new tech and new design ... because the last 10 years of clones and crap has taken us where? An mmo world of watered down clones of each other. I still have the least worry of any KS game with CU than any other. I still hope to see a few succeed if only to impact the direction of future mmorpgs.
My first mmo was Asheron's call which had collision. Terribly ancient mechanics on all fronts but most games since (luckily CoH had it too) ignored this. The tactics alone created from collision makes other games pale in comparison. Taunt is a lazy mechanic. A real tank in a real mmo uses their position to create space. Blocking doorways and pinch points is a common tactic in real life and most mmos can't even emulate it. A pvp game without is a penny arcade game and I can't believe we chocked that shit down for so many years.
You stay sassy!
Well games have a minimum spec rating for a reason. They have zero obligation towards potential players who do not meet minimum standards.
The evolution of mmo gaming is entirely dependent upon tech. We will only see the true immersive features we demand with evolving bandwidth and tech.
Windows XP? Does Sony or Microsoft give a rat's ass if their previous consoles can't run the latest games? Microsoft farts in the direction of people still running XP.
You stay sassy!
Too much going on clientside is indeed a huge problem in other competitive games. So this is to be applauded.
However, like others said: it remains to be awaited how they will handle lag and possible desync issues.
Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
Sorry for being sceptical byt seeing/playing is believing.
Games still excist out of code.........
While I would congratulate them on taking measures to reduce cheating before the game launches (many companies do not put any real effort on this issue until after launch), I would have to say that they do not show any real indication of expertise in this area. This may mean that much of what they are doing is just wasted effort, as it will not bring the intended results.
I will wait to see what the results are before condemning/praising them for their efforts. I would hope that they would do the same before patting themselves on the back. Dealing with cheaters is a non trivial issue, and it is easy to underestimate them, and not something that should be counted before you have results.
No surprise here, this is The all-mighty Mark Jacobs in work. The guys passions to squash hacking,exploiting,botting, gold spamming, and the such, is spectacular. Remember when they posted on Warhammer Onlines website daily about the amount of bots and gold sellers they banned on a daily basis? I sure do, and I absolutely loved it!
Mr. Jacobs is my last hope in the mmo genre. I just wish the guy had funding on par with Blizzard
Forget Canada, just move to Kansas City. That's where Google Fiber (1Gbps up and down stream) is at. They pretty much already have the entire city (and the surrounding suburbs) wired up to it now.