The first thing I thought about while reading this article was another line the Crowfall devs have been (and still are) saying: "This game is not for everyone."
WoW got rid of their talent trees because people kept making turd-builds and it became a burden on everyone who knew what they were doing in both raids and PVP.
The way talents are set up now in WoW only really leaves one option and I'm sure this game won't be any different when it comes to the "One build to rule them all" set up.
maybe there will be a www.crowhead.com for this game b/c ppl are gonna need it.
People make way too much of this. In WoW, you chose your class and race at character creation and if you got to level 60 and didn't like it, what then? Sure, you could easily redo your talents, but that was it.
CF lets you choose your archetype at character creation, along with your advantages and disadvantages. After you have played for a bit, you will choose your promotion class. ACE has said that we may be able to redo our advantages and disadvantages at that point, but they weren't sure yet. At any point in time, you can choose up to 3 disciplines and you can change them if you want, though you'll have to train whatever new skills you get.
When you get right down to it, they really aren't much different. Both games force you to make choices and you must live with those choices or re-roll. Yet somehow it's bad in CF and okay in WoW and dozens of other games.
I think it's great to have some level of control of a character's development. If you want to make a jack of all trades, a pure crit monster, a huge healthpool with healing ability, perhaps a very very fast low health, maybe all crowd controls with low damage.
One person's broken is another person's success. If you were to have a group of friends that all built with these "broken" builds, they would probably be really great at fulfilling group rolls and not be fumbling around wondering what to do since the char is so specialized they have a narrow and powerful roll within a group.
Originally posted by jdlamson75 Niche game. Don't like it? Want your hand held? Goodbye.
+1000000
Saying this over and over does not change anything though. Some people just like to bitch and complain just to hear themselves ( I guess to read themselves in this case) talk.
Originally posted by jdlamson75 Niche game. Don't like it? Want your hand held? Goodbye.
You must be lost. The Crowfall cult forums are elsewhere. This isn't your happy place where you can be made to feel special and elite.
It's as if some of you have never heard of re-specs nor why they became a standard MMO feature.
This is nothing other than just more Crowfall "Hey! Look at us we're different and we're harsh. Scrubs need not apply!" PR spin to attract a certain sort of gamer that east that shit up.
You yourselves will be begging and whining for the ability to re-spec (if it isn't included right off the bat as it probably will be) once you start getting your ass handed to you on a regular basis.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Technically speaking, you can make a "Crappy" or "Bad" character in pretty much any game if you really try as in intentional choose or lack common sense. As any friendly forum know it all will point out, there usually is a "best" build or way to play something. If there is a best, I have to assume there is something not as good or "bad" in comparison.
Most games are very forgiving and I think this is in part due to everyone wanting to be "the best" no matter what they do. If everyone is the best, no one is and if everyone is equal, what's the point in any choice to begin with. If you can blindly select from 100 options and end equal to everyone else, pointless.
While the devs are saying players can potential make a bad character, we don't know what that means or looks like, but I doubt much of it will be too confusing or require a lot of time looking at spreadsheets.
Also from other comments they've made, I believe it has more to do with what someone wants to do and what they choose to do.
If I want to be the bestest tank in the whole world and choose a caster, I've made a crappy tank. If I pick a tank and build the character into a non-tank and get upset it isn't as good as other "tanks" that is my fault.
Could be wrong and simply choosing +1 instead of +3 in starting option could totally 100% gimp a character forever, but that seems pretty shallow/poor design that these folks don't seem likely to create and I'm also assuming it won't take 100 hours to figure it out.
From this weeks updates, looks like they are going to provide as much detail at creation as possible so that creating a bad character probably won't be totally up to a roll of the dice.
As far as building a character goes, it doesn't seem overly complicated or setting people up to screw themselves over:
Pick Archetype (Class)
Gives basic role and core abilities
Pick Advantages/Disadvantages (similar to stats, racials for the most part)
Customize a bit to preferred play style. Trade offs. Less strength to carry items frees points to make someone run faster (made up example)
Pick 1 of 3 Promo Classes (Paths/Trees) to specialize in and I believe Advantages/Disadvantages can be reset at this time.
Further go down a preferred path and play style. Adds more abilities. Adjust Adv/Dis to work with this addition.
Pick 3 Disciplines from X number available currently to the Archetype (Can be swapped out for others, not permanent)
Adds abilities and other options. One might be crap with a particular Archetype A and Promo Class A, but amazing with Promo Class B.
So far, all of this is pretty straight forward. While someone could potentially pick "bad" Advantages/Disadvantages, I'm betting it won't be too drastic.
Skills - Active/Passively train 3 at a time
This is the least clear to me, but probably where someone could potentially screw up.
Depending on which ones someone chooses to train, they could be picking less desired/powerful skills or ones that don't take advantage of all their other choices previously. But as we can switch what is trained, if Hammer is crap and Sword is awesome, just a matter of switching and time. Someone might "waste" time not being the very best, but they can always work towards it.
Maybe I'm missing something, but none of this screams it being easy to totally create the worst character ever that has zero purpose or that isn't obvious fairly quickly.
The only real permanent thing that couldn't be adjusted down the line is advantages/disadvantages. Excluding Archetype and Promo Class as those are big decisions someone shouldn't make on a whim. If I choose a Knight and 3 years down the line realize I want to play a Mino, it's simply time to make a new character.
Overall, with it being more horizontal and less power difference between new/vet characters, I'm assuming people will be able to quickly figure out what they want to play and how they want to play it. From then it's just time and slowly increasing in power and maybe gaining a wee bit more.
While it is nice to be able to reroll every part of a character and have to make zero decisions beyond what class to play, I'm sure there are plenty of folks that can handle losing -10 STR for +2 Aim or whatever crazy ways there are to build a character.
Originally posted by jdlamson75 Niche game. Don't like it? Want your hand held? Goodbye.
You must be lost. The Crowfall cult forums are elsewhere. This isn't your happy place where you can be made to feel special and elite.
It's as if some of you have never heard of re-specs nor why they became a standard MMO feature.
This is nothing other than just more Crowfall "Hey! Look at us we're different and we're harsh. Scrubs need not apply!" PR spin to attract a certain sort of gamer that east that shit up.
You yourselves will be begging and whining for the ability to re-spec (if it isn't included right off the bat as it probably will be) once you start getting your ass handed to you on a regular basis.
I've heard of respecs and don't believe they are needed unless a game is designed with them in mind, pretty much like the vast majority of features that people like or don't.
While I don't consider myself elite or anything, I do enjoy lacking such features and honestly don't care if everyone else doesn't or not.
Not because I'm hardcore or anything, but games tend to play differently depending on how much choice or lack of it is involved.
I could make a decent list of "standard features" that are totally trashed on this site that I could surely live without and never want to experience again.
Not sure why having to make permanent or at least semi final choices means "scrubs" can't play or that only a particular type is welcome.
Just like any other game, it will have XYZ features and people can either play and enjoy or not.
If you are a certain type of gamer that can't live without ABC and Crowfall doesn't have it, that game isn't for you.
Very glad to see the majority of upcoming games aren't cookie cutter "standard feature" packed products. There should be plenty to choose from for all of us.
As someone that has played these games since before respecs were a daily routine, I most likely won't be whining for them. I really enjoyed having to figure out how to use what I had created for better or worse. As I listed above, CF players will have plenty of ways to tailor their characters to themselves and half the fun is getting something that I can be proud of and enjoy.
Originally posted by jdlamson75 Niche game. Don't like it? Want your hand held? Goodbye.
You must be lost. The Crowfall cult forums are elsewhere. This isn't your happy place where you can be made to feel special and elite.
It's as if some of you have never heard of re-specs nor why they became a standard MMO feature.
This is nothing other than just more Crowfall "Hey! Look at us we're different and we're harsh. Scrubs need not apply!" PR spin to attract a certain sort of gamer that east that shit up.
You yourselves will be begging and whining for the ability to re-spec (if it isn't included right off the bat as it probably will be) once you start getting your ass handed to you on a regular basis.
I've heard of respecs and don't believe they are needed unless a game is designed with them in mind, pretty much like the vast majority of features that people like or don't.
While I don't consider myself elite or anything, I do enjoy lacking such features and honestly don't care if everyone else doesn't or not.
Not because I'm hardcore or anything, but games tend to play differently depending on how much choice or lack of it is involved.
I could make a decent list of "standard features" that are totally trashed on this site that I could surely live without and never want to experience again.
Not sure why having to make permanent or at least semi final choices means "scrubs" can't play or that only a particular type is welcome.
Just like any other game, it will have XYZ features and people can either play and enjoy or not.
If you are a certain type of gamer that can't live without ABC and Crowfall doesn't have it, that game isn't for you.
Very glad to see the majority of upcoming games aren't cookie cutter "standard feature" packed products. There should be plenty to choose from for all of us.
As someone that has played these games since before respecs were a daily routine, I most likely won't be whining for them. I really enjoyed having to figure out how to use what I had created for better or worse. As I listed above, CF players will have plenty of ways to tailor their characters to themselves and half the fun is getting something that I can be proud of and enjoy.
While it's nice you've come to the defense of your dismissive arrogant friend with a well-written logical argument, I'm just going to say that I'm not buying your assertion about your willingness to live with what you created in ignorance for better or worse... not even for a minute.
If you find yourself under performing in a competitive PVP game you will either re-roll or re-spec. Re-specs are there to keep you from wasting the hundreds of hours you put into your character while you learned the subtleties of the new system. It is why it's an ubiquitous MMO feature (not to mention a convenient cash item in F2P games.)
Your chin-up attitude about the game you've committed financially and perhaps even emotionally to is natural. But take some care not to lose touch with the reality of playing games in general. They're there to be enjoyed, not suffered through.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Originally posted by simmihi Build X counters build Y but fails against builds Z, K, W would be lovely and makes total sense. This "screw up point allocation" is lame. "Serious" players will follow guides anyway.
"Serious" players have no imagination.
One game should not be the "end all" game. It's a specific product, with specific characteristics. I hate to say this, but you either like it, or you don't. Games that want to tend to every single player's tastes turn up to be shit. They can't to a specific task great, so they do a big mix of tasks crappy.
This is the very definition of making a mountain out of a molehill.
Anyone who has taken a look at how they intend character creation to be, will realize that a player would have to make intentionally bad choices in order to have a "crappy" character. Admittedly, 90% of the game information is in the FAQ section of their web page instead of in the relevant gameplay sections, but if you take the time to read the FAQ, then all the pieces start to fall into place.
When a game comes to us and says "Hey, use that lump three feet above your ass before making choices in our game!", then we should be praising that company. Too many games these days are complete hand-hold fests from beginning to end.
The ability to make the character that you really want to play must necessarily come with the downside that you could screw it all up. It has to be that way, otherwise you might as well go play any of the thousands of level/class games out there that don't allow you to make any meaningful choices, and therefore don't allow you to screw up.
This is the very definition of making a mountain out of a molehill.
Anyone who has taken a look at how they intend character creation to be, will realize that a player would have to make intentionally bad choices in order to have a "crappy" character. Admittedly, 90% of the game information is in the FAQ section of their web page instead of in the relevant gameplay sections, but if you take the time to read the FAQ, then all the pieces start to fall into place.
When a game comes to us and says "Hey, use that lump three feet above your ass before making choices in our game!", then we should be praising that company. Too many games these days are complete hand-hold fests from beginning to end.
The ability to make the character that you really want to play must necessarily come with the downside that you could screw it all up. It has to be that way, otherwise you might as well go play any of the thousands of level/class games out there that don't allow you to make any meaningful choices, and therefore don't allow you to screw up.
You guys are wasting your breath trying to school this new generation of entitled gamers. They don't understand that a huge part of an MMORPG is about dealing with the consequences brought about by taking risks through critical decision-making during your journey to end game. That IS what MMORPG game play is all about. The challenge of an MMORPG is largely experienced through the risks you take while developing your character. By making good decisions during that process you are ultimate rewarded by acquiring the best gear and becoming the best in the game. If you mess up during that process of decision making you lose the game. It's really just that simple. Everyone isn't suppose to be a winner. In every game there are winners and losers. In MMORPG's, this IS how you win and lose. If you don't want to deal with risky and critical decision making during the development of your character, then play an FPS game.
This is what frustrates me most about this new generation of gamers. They want to bastardaize the MMORPG genre to play like an FPS. They want to play an MMORPG but they hate everything that makes the game an MMORPG. They don't want to face consequences. They don't want severe death penalties. They don't want long leveling curves that serve to teach players how to play their class properly before facing that tough end game content. They don't want to sacrifice time to earn BiS gear. They don't want story. They don't want quests ... etc., and so forth. All they want to be able to do is log into a game and immediately play end game. They consider a game with no risks or consequences fun and any content with the potential to produce negative consequences that will keep them from getting to end game in 2-3 days and becoming just as competitive as another player who has contributed years to the game is a pain in the ass, a hindrance, and no fun. In essence, all they want to do is to play an MMORPG like an FPS game. Anything short of that is a complete failure.
While it's nice you've come to the defense of your dismissive arrogant friend with a well-written logical argument, I'm just going to say that I'm not buying your assertion about your willingness to live with what you created in ignorance for better or worse... not even for a minute.
If you find yourself under performing in a competitive PVP game you will either re-roll or re-spec. Re-specs are there to keep you from wasting the hundreds of hours you put into your character while you learned the subtleties of the new system. It is why it's an ubiquitous MMO feature (not to mention a convenient cash item in F2P games.)
Your chin-up attitude about the game you've committed financially and perhaps even emotionally to is natural. But take some care not to lose touch with the reality of playing games in general. They're there to be enjoyed, not suffered through.
While I don't exactly agree with the tone in which that comment was made, it isn't too far off. The game simply isn't for everyone. Just as I don't play insert every current game for numerous reasons.
If a game doesn't cater to you specifically it isn't "dumb" or bad, just not for you. WoW is clearly a hugely popular game still, yet I grew tired of it after a few years. It isn't a bad game at all, yet it isn't for me. After two decades of this, there's a lot of games that have that spot on my list now.
You can attempt to know me or what I may or may not be able to deal with, but that's for you to do. I know myself and the amount of entertainment I've received from various types of games.
However you are correct. If I some how manage to build a terrible character that I can not improve within the limits of the system, I'll reroll or make a new character. As I typically spend too much time min/maxing and what not, probably unlikely without a bit of effort that I'll log in and realize that I'm bad because of my choices and not my skill.
CF will be horizontal progress with relatively quick creation to jump into action time. I highly doubt people will spend 100s of hours enjoying themselves and come to the conclusion that they made terrible choices 100s of hours ago and now they are suffering terribly. Not sure I've actually played a game like that...
Using the "other games do it" reasoning simply doesn't work. Most games also revolve around soloing, carrot/stick grinding to grind, vertical power stacking, constant buffs/nerfs to everything, instances, "balanced" everything, etc. None of which I want copy/pasted into Crowfall just because.
Are respecs evil? No of course not. But if a game is designed without them in mind, usually they aren't needed to play as there should be enough transparency and choice involved to not end up completely opposite of the intention.
At the time I do have a chin up attitude and am looking forward to what they are designing. If at any point I'm "suffering", I'm gone. I invested a lot more money/time into other games and had no problem walking away.
I get that the game isn't for you, but no need to label the creators or fans particular terms because you can't see the enjoyment.
If you want to play games where choice means little to nothing, lots to choose from. Most of them remove it even more as they age. Some people actually like knowing that they are risking something with their actions and choices. Part of the adventure. If I wanted to be "the best" and win without any chance of loss, I'd be focusing on something else. Simply different designs for different ways to play. CF for the most part seems a lot more to do with skill than what boots they are wearing of if they chose +5 or -3 at creation.
If you dont like wasting time than this game is DEFINENTLY not for you. You will lose many wars , lose all your buildings , all your gear. And at the end of the campaign you will lose all your buildings even if you win. Shadowbane was quite famous and this is its ancestor, chance to fail character has proven to be quite good mechanic in many different games, Shadowbane , Diablo 2 , Path of Exile etc.
That being said you wont ruin your character if you think before choosing perks. And thats what this game wants you to do, theorycraft and strategize instead of mindless decisions.
You have to understand this is an Hardcore MMO, one that you will suffer from , alot. Its not meant for casuals.
Chance to fail your character actually improves the joy of making a good one. Death means something in this game, this makes winning and surviving much more glorious and it forces players to strategize and use intelligent tactics.
Uhh, every mmo already has done this. If you don't build correctly, no guilds will like you, no guilds will want you which essentially just terminates you doing any dungeons, raids or any endgame. This is nothing new, its annoying more than anything else if you can ''fuck up''. People will just find the meta and force everyone into doing it, there will be no creativity once again cause most builds that people think off will not be viable.
This is the very definition of making a mountain out of a molehill.
Anyone who has taken a look at how they intend character creation to be, will realize that a player would have to make intentionally bad choices in order to have a "crappy" character. Admittedly, 90% of the game information is in the FAQ section of their web page instead of in the relevant gameplay sections, but if you take the time to read the FAQ, then all the pieces start to fall into place.
When a game comes to us and says "Hey, use that lump three feet above your ass before making choices in our game!", then we should be praising that company. Too many games these days are complete hand-hold fests from beginning to end.
The ability to make the character that you really want to play must necessarily come with the downside that you could screw it all up. It has to be that way, otherwise you might as well go play any of the thousands of level/class games out there that don't allow you to make any meaningful choices, and therefore don't allow you to screw up.
You guys are wasting your breath trying to school this new generation of entitled gamers. They don't understand that a huge part of an MMORPG is about dealing with the consequences brought about by taking risks through critical decision-making during your journey to end game. That IS what MMORPG game play is all about. The challenge of an MMORPG is largely experienced through the risks you take while developing your character. By making good decisions during that process you are ultimate rewarded by acquiring the best gear and becoming the best in the game. If you mess up during that process of decision making you lose the game. It's really just that simple. Everyone isn't suppose to be a winner. In every game there are winners and losers. In MMORPG's, this IS how you win and lose. If you don't want to deal with risky and critical decision making during the development of your character, then play an FPS game.
This is what frustrates me most about this new generation of gamers. They want to bastardaize the MMORPG genre to play like an FPS. They want to play an MMORPG but they hate everything that makes the game an MMORPG. They don't want to face consequences. They don't want severe death penalties. They don't want long leveling curves that serve to teach players how to play their class properly before facing that tough end game content. They don't want to sacrifice time to earn BiS gear. They don't want story. They don't want quests ... etc., and so forth. All they want to be able to do is log into a game and immediately play end game. They consider a game with no risks or consequences fun and any content with the potential to produce negative consequences that will keep them from getting to end game in 2-3 days and becoming just as competitive as another player who has contributed years to the game is a pain in the ass, a hindrance, and no fun. In essence, all they want to do is to play an MMORPG like an FPS game. Anything short of that is a complete failure.
Yes and no on your comment cause the only thing that the crowd has right now is the access to the internet and the ability to create meta. As well as people don't want to fail and knowing this is an mmorpg instead of a single player rpg, if people fail. They are done unless they can reverse their actions. Cause most mmos end up with pvp or dungeons. Dungeons you can barely do with the ''penalties, debonuses, bad builds'' Pvp on the other hand, no way will you be able to beat someone with a crappy build over a godly build that has done everything right. Not to mention all the creativity is beaten out of you. If you don't do this right, you won't be able to get into the guild, if you don't get into a guild that just kills your endgame, essentially killing off your character if the bad things you did aren't reversible. Its the community, old and new that kills every mmorpg but even that being said, games are built around being this way. Its made around it, to cater to that community. Its not ''this generation'' or ''that generation'', that's completely besides the point. The internet was a blessing and a curse. No one wants to have a challenge in games, period. Not in mmorpgs, fps, mobas, rts *insert any other game genre here*, all they want to do is win. They don't care about fun, they don't know what the word ''fun'' even means. PS: Long leveling, grinding, fetchquests or questleading in general isn't a challenge, that's just tedious and grind heavy as well as executed poorly, hence why no one even wants to do them. Its not like ''what interesting quest am I gonna go on ?'' Its more like ''Oh damn, I have to kill x number of wolves again''.
You guys are wasting your breath trying to school this new generation of entitled gamers. They don't understand that a huge part of an MMORPG is about dealing with the consequences brought about by taking risks through critical decision-making during your journey to end game. That IS what MMORPG game play is all about. The challenge of an MMORPG is largely experienced through the risks you take while developing your character. By making good decisions during that process you are ultimate rewarded by acquiring the best gear and becoming the best in the game. If you mess up during that process of decision making you lose the game. It's really just that simple. Everyone isn't suppose to be a winner. In every game there are winners and losers. In MMORPG's, this IS how you win and lose. If you don't want to deal with risky and critical decision making during the development of your character, then play an FPS game.
This is what frustrates me most about this new generation of gamers. They want to bastardaize the MMORPG genre to play like an FPS. They want to play an MMORPG but they hate everything that makes the game an MMORPG. They don't want to face consequences. They don't want severe death penalties. They don't want long leveling curves that serve to teach players how to play their class properly before facing that tough end game content. They don't want to sacrifice time to earn BiS gear. They don't want story. They don't want quests ... etc., and so forth. All they want to be able to do is log into a game and immediately play end game. They consider a game with no risks or consequences fun and any content with the potential to produce negative consequences that will keep them from getting to end game in 2-3 days and becoming just as competitive as another player who has contributed years to the game is a pain in the ass, a hindrance, and no fun. In essence, all they want to do is to play an MMORPG like an FPS game. Anything short of that is a complete failure.
Yes and no on your comment cause the only thing that the crowd has right now is the access to the internet and the ability to create meta. As well as people don't want to fail and knowing this is an mmorpg instead of a single player rpg, if people fail. They are done unless they can reverse their actions. Cause most mmos end up with pvp or dungeons. Dungeons you can barely do with the ''penalties, debonuses, bad builds'' Pvp on the other hand, no way will you be able to beat someone with a crappy build over a godly build that has done everything right. Not to mention all the creativity is beaten out of you. If you don't do this right, you won't be able to get into the guild, if you don't get into a guild that just kills your endgame, essentially killing off your character if the bad things you did aren't reversible. Its the community, old and new that kills every mmorpg but even that being said, games are built around being this way. Its made around it, to cater to that community. Its not ''this generation'' or ''that generation'', that's completely besides the point. The internet was a blessing and a curse. No one wants to have a challenge in games, period. Not in mmorpgs, fps, mobas, rts *insert any other game genre here*, all they want to do is win. They don't care about fun, they don't know what the word ''fun'' even means. PS: Long leveling, grinding, fetchquests or questleading in general isn't a challenge, that's just tedious and grind heavy as well as executed poorly, hence why no one even wants to do them. Its not like ''what interesting quest am I gonna go on ?'' Its more like ''Oh damn, I have to kill x number of wolves again''.
What ever happened to taking responsibility for the decisions that you make, and dealing with the consequences when you make the wrong decisions? Which in this case would mean you either persevere and overcome the challenges despite your crappy decision making resulting in a crappy character, or you kill it off and start all over. Who's fault is it exactly that you were unable to build a better character? The game gives everyone the tools to be able to make right and wrong decisions, and it does so equally. It isn't anybody's fault but the players if they were, for whatever reason, unable to make the right decisions while developing their character. Other players were able to do it, why not you? Often times crappy builds are simply the result of carelessness, lazyness, and the unwillingness to take your time and make good educated decision because you are rushing to be the first player to reach end game, despite the fact that this is not at all what an MMORPG is all about. MMORPGs are not a race, they are a journey. Slow down, do your research, think about what you are doing, and you will not end up with a crappy build. To blame others for your lack of ability to develop a good build is exactly the epitome of the word entitlement. You are forgiven if you are under 12 years old if you are oblivious to any of the above, but I should not have to be schooling adults about the pit falls of poor decision making. And yes this is a generational shift because this mentality was not prevalent in the early days of the MMORPG.
Regarding long leveling, fetch questing and quest reading not being a challenge, and in your opinion tedious, grind heavy, and poorly executed, I hope you are aware that you are playing an MMORPG. While you may be right in your subjective opinion about these features, they are what makes an MMORPG an MMORPG. If you don't like engaging in those features, then you might want to reconsider whether MMORPGs are the game for you. Some MMORPGs do this better than others. The goal here should be to improve these features that make an MMORPG what it is, not do away with them.
This is just a situation of terrible headline/general way of stating "free form character building".
If you say, "You can choose how to build your character!" Everyone high fives.
If you say, "You are free to screw up your character!" You get this thread.
The same freedom exists in Skyrim, but we don't have a nonsense thread like this about it. In the end some people (aka the ones who will dominate the worlds) will choose optimal cookie cutter builds. Everyone else who is playing for fun will do what they want. And if you're having fun, then you didn't build a crappy character.
Originally posted by Sojhin Risk vs reward. The system in Shadowbane was exciting as you could build characters that may have been bad vs many other characters but were amazing against the Fotm builds. Allowing this in a MMO is what the Risk vs reward crowd crave!
To be fair in shadowbane you could reroll your character and have him maxed out in less then a day... and that's not a day of "playing" that's a day of afking in a PL group while you sleep/go to work.
I think people are massively overstating what they are talking about here. They aren't saying that they are making a game like d2 where you can build something that looks like it should work and then you find out its completely useless 100 hours later. They are talking about a system where the game allows for experimentation without encouraging min maxers. It will be fun to try and see what an mage tank looks like but I expect that it will probably suck and I can't just reroll it. From everything they have said in their videos I do not believe there goal is for you to make a traditional tank that sucks. Maybe it will be 2% weaker than somebody else or even 10% but you can play with it.
Min Maxing and step by step guides kills alot of what made the old style MMO's last so long. I'm not trolling new MMO fans saying their games are bad because its not true WoW is a very very very good game. But games like WoW need constant patches or people get board, where as older games did not because their truly was an element of exploration and experimentation that is absent from modern MMO's. I think they are just trying to bring that back bit by bit.
I love that you can make a character that sucks. It means it requires thinking. It requires tradeoffs and sacrifice. It means planning out a build. These are the kinds of things that get me attached to a character, why I loved the old D&D games. Too many games are dumbed down these days. No wrong choices means no meaningful choices, because it doesn't matter what you pick. Picking talents with synergy, or sacrificing some strength for a bit of survivability, I love these kinds of choices.
it was the same deal in shadowbane, i'm happy they are going this direction. also, i doubt the leveling curve will be too harsh, it literally only took a few hours to get a character up to R6 in shadowbane, which was considered end-game. it will probably take more time in CF but i doubt you'll see month long slogs through leveling content to get something up to max.
A game that thinks enough of me to let me make my own mistakes and learn from them is a step in the right direction in my mind.
Exactly what i have been searching for in a game for the last 10 or so years, all the current games are eighter too easy or too narrowminded to see that it is not only the easy playstyle people want they also sometimes want to have a chance to make mistakes.
Comments
WoW got rid of their talent trees because people kept making turd-builds and it became a burden on everyone who knew what they were doing in both raids and PVP.
The way talents are set up now in WoW only really leaves one option and I'm sure this game won't be any different when it comes to the "One build to rule them all" set up.
maybe there will be a www.crowhead.com for this game b/c ppl are gonna need it.
People make way too much of this. In WoW, you chose your class and race at character creation and if you got to level 60 and didn't like it, what then? Sure, you could easily redo your talents, but that was it.
CF lets you choose your archetype at character creation, along with your advantages and disadvantages. After you have played for a bit, you will choose your promotion class. ACE has said that we may be able to redo our advantages and disadvantages at that point, but they weren't sure yet. At any point in time, you can choose up to 3 disciplines and you can change them if you want, though you'll have to train whatever new skills you get.
When you get right down to it, they really aren't much different. Both games force you to make choices and you must live with those choices or re-roll. Yet somehow it's bad in CF and okay in WoW and dozens of other games.
I think it's great to have some level of control of a character's development. If you want to make a jack of all trades, a pure crit monster, a huge healthpool with healing ability, perhaps a very very fast low health, maybe all crowd controls with low damage.
One person's broken is another person's success. If you were to have a group of friends that all built with these "broken" builds, they would probably be really great at fulfilling group rolls and not be fumbling around wondering what to do since the char is so specialized they have a narrow and powerful roll within a group.
+1000000
Saying this over and over does not change anything though. Some people just like to bitch and complain just to hear themselves ( I guess to read themselves in this case) talk.
You must be lost. The Crowfall cult forums are elsewhere. This isn't your happy place where you can be made to feel special and elite.
It's as if some of you have never heard of re-specs nor why they became a standard MMO feature.
This is nothing other than just more Crowfall "Hey! Look at us we're different and we're harsh. Scrubs need not apply!" PR spin to attract a certain sort of gamer that east that shit up.
You yourselves will be begging and whining for the ability to re-spec (if it isn't included right off the bat as it probably will be) once you start getting your ass handed to you on a regular basis.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Technically speaking, you can make a "Crappy" or "Bad" character in pretty much any game if you really try as in intentional choose or lack common sense. As any friendly forum know it all will point out, there usually is a "best" build or way to play something. If there is a best, I have to assume there is something not as good or "bad" in comparison.
Most games are very forgiving and I think this is in part due to everyone wanting to be "the best" no matter what they do. If everyone is the best, no one is and if everyone is equal, what's the point in any choice to begin with. If you can blindly select from 100 options and end equal to everyone else, pointless.
While the devs are saying players can potential make a bad character, we don't know what that means or looks like, but I doubt much of it will be too confusing or require a lot of time looking at spreadsheets.
Also from other comments they've made, I believe it has more to do with what someone wants to do and what they choose to do.
If I want to be the bestest tank in the whole world and choose a caster, I've made a crappy tank. If I pick a tank and build the character into a non-tank and get upset it isn't as good as other "tanks" that is my fault.
Could be wrong and simply choosing +1 instead of +3 in starting option could totally 100% gimp a character forever, but that seems pretty shallow/poor design that these folks don't seem likely to create and I'm also assuming it won't take 100 hours to figure it out.
From this weeks updates, looks like they are going to provide as much detail at creation as possible so that creating a bad character probably won't be totally up to a roll of the dice.
As far as building a character goes, it doesn't seem overly complicated or setting people up to screw themselves over:
I've heard of respecs and don't believe they are needed unless a game is designed with them in mind, pretty much like the vast majority of features that people like or don't.
While I don't consider myself elite or anything, I do enjoy lacking such features and honestly don't care if everyone else doesn't or not.
Not because I'm hardcore or anything, but games tend to play differently depending on how much choice or lack of it is involved.
I could make a decent list of "standard features" that are totally trashed on this site that I could surely live without and never want to experience again.
Not sure why having to make permanent or at least semi final choices means "scrubs" can't play or that only a particular type is welcome.
Just like any other game, it will have XYZ features and people can either play and enjoy or not.
If you are a certain type of gamer that can't live without ABC and Crowfall doesn't have it, that game isn't for you.
Very glad to see the majority of upcoming games aren't cookie cutter "standard feature" packed products. There should be plenty to choose from for all of us.
As someone that has played these games since before respecs were a daily routine, I most likely won't be whining for them. I really enjoyed having to figure out how to use what I had created for better or worse. As I listed above, CF players will have plenty of ways to tailor their characters to themselves and half the fun is getting something that I can be proud of and enjoy.
While it's nice you've come to the defense of your dismissive arrogant friend with a well-written logical argument, I'm just going to say that I'm not buying your assertion about your willingness to live with what you created in ignorance for better or worse... not even for a minute.
If you find yourself under performing in a competitive PVP game you will either re-roll or re-spec. Re-specs are there to keep you from wasting the hundreds of hours you put into your character while you learned the subtleties of the new system. It is why it's an ubiquitous MMO feature (not to mention a convenient cash item in F2P games.)
Your chin-up attitude about the game you've committed financially and perhaps even emotionally to is natural. But take some care not to lose touch with the reality of playing games in general. They're there to be enjoyed, not suffered through.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
"Serious" players have no imagination.
This is the very definition of making a mountain out of a molehill.
Anyone who has taken a look at how they intend character creation to be, will realize that a player would have to make intentionally bad choices in order to have a "crappy" character. Admittedly, 90% of the game information is in the FAQ section of their web page instead of in the relevant gameplay sections, but if you take the time to read the FAQ, then all the pieces start to fall into place.
When a game comes to us and says "Hey, use that lump three feet above your ass before making choices in our game!", then we should be praising that company. Too many games these days are complete hand-hold fests from beginning to end.
The ability to make the character that you really want to play must necessarily come with the downside that you could screw it all up. It has to be that way, otherwise you might as well go play any of the thousands of level/class games out there that don't allow you to make any meaningful choices, and therefore don't allow you to screw up.
You guys are wasting your breath trying to school this new generation of entitled gamers. They don't understand that a huge part of an MMORPG is about dealing with the consequences brought about by taking risks through critical decision-making during your journey to end game. That IS what MMORPG game play is all about. The challenge of an MMORPG is largely experienced through the risks you take while developing your character. By making good decisions during that process you are ultimate rewarded by acquiring the best gear and becoming the best in the game. If you mess up during that process of decision making you lose the game. It's really just that simple. Everyone isn't suppose to be a winner. In every game there are winners and losers. In MMORPG's, this IS how you win and lose. If you don't want to deal with risky and critical decision making during the development of your character, then play an FPS game.
This is what frustrates me most about this new generation of gamers. They want to bastardaize the MMORPG genre to play like an FPS. They want to play an MMORPG but they hate everything that makes the game an MMORPG. They don't want to face consequences. They don't want severe death penalties. They don't want long leveling curves that serve to teach players how to play their class properly before facing that tough end game content. They don't want to sacrifice time to earn BiS gear. They don't want story. They don't want quests ... etc., and so forth. All they want to be able to do is log into a game and immediately play end game. They consider a game with no risks or consequences fun and any content with the potential to produce negative consequences that will keep them from getting to end game in 2-3 days and becoming just as competitive as another player who has contributed years to the game is a pain in the ass, a hindrance, and no fun. In essence, all they want to do is to play an MMORPG like an FPS game. Anything short of that is a complete failure.
While I don't exactly agree with the tone in which that comment was made, it isn't too far off. The game simply isn't for everyone. Just as I don't play insert every current game for numerous reasons.
If a game doesn't cater to you specifically it isn't "dumb" or bad, just not for you. WoW is clearly a hugely popular game still, yet I grew tired of it after a few years. It isn't a bad game at all, yet it isn't for me. After two decades of this, there's a lot of games that have that spot on my list now.
You can attempt to know me or what I may or may not be able to deal with, but that's for you to do. I know myself and the amount of entertainment I've received from various types of games.
However you are correct. If I some how manage to build a terrible character that I can not improve within the limits of the system, I'll reroll or make a new character. As I typically spend too much time min/maxing and what not, probably unlikely without a bit of effort that I'll log in and realize that I'm bad because of my choices and not my skill.
CF will be horizontal progress with relatively quick creation to jump into action time. I highly doubt people will spend 100s of hours enjoying themselves and come to the conclusion that they made terrible choices 100s of hours ago and now they are suffering terribly. Not sure I've actually played a game like that...
Using the "other games do it" reasoning simply doesn't work. Most games also revolve around soloing, carrot/stick grinding to grind, vertical power stacking, constant buffs/nerfs to everything, instances, "balanced" everything, etc. None of which I want copy/pasted into Crowfall just because.
Are respecs evil? No of course not. But if a game is designed without them in mind, usually they aren't needed to play as there should be enough transparency and choice involved to not end up completely opposite of the intention.
At the time I do have a chin up attitude and am looking forward to what they are designing. If at any point I'm "suffering", I'm gone. I invested a lot more money/time into other games and had no problem walking away.
I get that the game isn't for you, but no need to label the creators or fans particular terms because you can't see the enjoyment.
If you want to play games where choice means little to nothing, lots to choose from. Most of them remove it even more as they age. Some people actually like knowing that they are risking something with their actions and choices. Part of the adventure. If I wanted to be "the best" and win without any chance of loss, I'd be focusing on something else. Simply different designs for different ways to play. CF for the most part seems a lot more to do with skill than what boots they are wearing of if they chose +5 or -3 at creation.
Hopefully you find a game that suits your needs.
If you dont like wasting time than this game is DEFINENTLY not for you. You will lose many wars , lose all your buildings , all your gear. And at the end of the campaign you will lose all your buildings even if you win. Shadowbane was quite famous and this is its ancestor, chance to fail character has proven to be quite good mechanic in many different games, Shadowbane , Diablo 2 , Path of Exile etc.
That being said you wont ruin your character if you think before choosing perks. And thats what this game wants you to do, theorycraft and strategize instead of mindless decisions.
You have to understand this is an Hardcore MMO, one that you will suffer from , alot. Its not meant for casuals.
Originally posted by LacedOpium
You guys are wasting your breath trying to school this new generation of entitled gamers. They don't understand that a huge part of an MMORPG is about dealing with the consequences brought about by taking risks through critical decision-making during your journey to end game. That IS what MMORPG game play is all about. The challenge of an MMORPG is largely experienced through the risks you take while developing your character. By making good decisions during that process you are ultimate rewarded by acquiring the best gear and becoming the best in the game. If you mess up during that process of decision making you lose the game. It's really just that simple. Everyone isn't suppose to be a winner. In every game there are winners and losers. In MMORPG's, this IS how you win and lose. If you don't want to deal with risky and critical decision making during the development of your character, then play an FPS game.
This is what frustrates me most about this new generation of gamers. They want to bastardaize the MMORPG genre to play like an FPS. They want to play an MMORPG but they hate everything that makes the game an MMORPG. They don't want to face consequences. They don't want severe death penalties. They don't want long leveling curves that serve to teach players how to play their class properly before facing that tough end game content. They don't want to sacrifice time to earn BiS gear. They don't want story. They don't want quests ... etc., and so forth. All they want to be able to do is log into a game and immediately play end game. They consider a game with no risks or consequences fun and any content with the potential to produce negative consequences that will keep them from getting to end game in 2-3 days and becoming just as competitive as another player who has contributed years to the game is a pain in the ass, a hindrance, and no fun. In essence, all they want to do is to play an MMORPG like an FPS game. Anything short of that is a complete failure.
Yes and no on your comment cause the only thing that the crowd has right now is the access to the internet and the ability to create meta. As well as people don't want to fail and knowing this is an mmorpg instead of a single player rpg, if people fail. They are done unless they can reverse their actions. Cause most mmos end up with pvp or dungeons. Dungeons you can barely do with the ''penalties, debonuses, bad builds'' Pvp on the other hand, no way will you be able to beat someone with a crappy build over a godly build that has done everything right. Not to mention all the creativity is beaten out of you. If you don't do this right, you won't be able to get into the guild, if you don't get into a guild that just kills your endgame, essentially killing off your character if the bad things you did aren't reversible. Its the community, old and new that kills every mmorpg but even that being said, games are built around being this way. Its made around it, to cater to that community. Its not ''this generation'' or ''that generation'', that's completely besides the point. The internet was a blessing and a curse. No one wants to have a challenge in games, period. Not in mmorpgs, fps, mobas, rts *insert any other game genre here*, all they want to do is win. They don't care about fun, they don't know what the word ''fun'' even means. PS: Long leveling, grinding, fetchquests or questleading in general isn't a challenge, that's just tedious and grind heavy as well as executed poorly, hence why no one even wants to do them. Its not like ''what interesting quest am I gonna go on ?'' Its more like ''Oh damn, I have to kill x number of wolves again''.
What ever happened to taking responsibility for the decisions that you make, and dealing with the consequences when you make the wrong decisions? Which in this case would mean you either persevere and overcome the challenges despite your crappy decision making resulting in a crappy character, or you kill it off and start all over. Who's fault is it exactly that you were unable to build a better character? The game gives everyone the tools to be able to make right and wrong decisions, and it does so equally. It isn't anybody's fault but the players if they were, for whatever reason, unable to make the right decisions while developing their character. Other players were able to do it, why not you? Often times crappy builds are simply the result of carelessness, lazyness, and the unwillingness to take your time and make good educated decision because you are rushing to be the first player to reach end game, despite the fact that this is not at all what an MMORPG is all about. MMORPGs are not a race, they are a journey. Slow down, do your research, think about what you are doing, and you will not end up with a crappy build. To blame others for your lack of ability to develop a good build is exactly the epitome of the word entitlement. You are forgiven if you are under 12 years old if you are oblivious to any of the above, but I should not have to be schooling adults about the pit falls of poor decision making. And yes this is a generational shift because this mentality was not prevalent in the early days of the MMORPG.
Regarding long leveling, fetch questing and quest reading not being a challenge, and in your opinion tedious, grind heavy, and poorly executed, I hope you are aware that you are playing an MMORPG. While you may be right in your subjective opinion about these features, they are what makes an MMORPG an MMORPG. If you don't like engaging in those features, then you might want to reconsider whether MMORPGs are the game for you. Some MMORPGs do this better than others. The goal here should be to improve these features that make an MMORPG what it is, not do away with them.
This is just a situation of terrible headline/general way of stating "free form character building".
If you say, "You can choose how to build your character!" Everyone high fives.
If you say, "You are free to screw up your character!" You get this thread.
The same freedom exists in Skyrim, but we don't have a nonsense thread like this about it. In the end some people (aka the ones who will dominate the worlds) will choose optimal cookie cutter builds. Everyone else who is playing for fun will do what they want. And if you're having fun, then you didn't build a crappy character.
Drekor Silverfang
The Shipwrecked Pirates
I think people are massively overstating what they are talking about here. They aren't saying that they are making a game like d2 where you can build something that looks like it should work and then you find out its completely useless 100 hours later. They are talking about a system where the game allows for experimentation without encouraging min maxers. It will be fun to try and see what an mage tank looks like but I expect that it will probably suck and I can't just reroll it. From everything they have said in their videos I do not believe there goal is for you to make a traditional tank that sucks. Maybe it will be 2% weaker than somebody else or even 10% but you can play with it.
Min Maxing and step by step guides kills alot of what made the old style MMO's last so long. I'm not trolling new MMO fans saying their games are bad because its not true WoW is a very very very good game. But games like WoW need constant patches or people get board, where as older games did not because their truly was an element of exploration and experimentation that is absent from modern MMO's. I think they are just trying to bring that back bit by bit.
A game that thinks enough of me to let me make my own mistakes and learn from them is a step in the right direction in my mind.
( Note to self-Don't say anything bad about Drizzt.)
An acerbic sense of humor is NOT allowed here.
Exactly what i have been searching for in a game for the last 10 or so years, all the current games are eighter too easy or too narrowminded to see that it is not only the easy playstyle people want they also sometimes want to have a chance to make mistakes.