In reply to a few different posts aimed at me. I am generally just here to prove that leveling was harder.
Which is bullshit. What you call harder is the ability to stay awake and focused bashing the same mobs for hours with a couple of other people who were required to do the same. That's specially true for Everquest. That's not hard... that's resilience to the boredom of repeating the same thing over and over again. A lobotomized ape with a battery plugged on some body part where it hurts if he falls asleep could do the same.
Basically you repeat that, but you probably couldn't do it yourself.
In reply to a few different posts aimed at me. I am generally just here to prove that leveling was harder.
Which is bullshit. What you call harder is the ability to stay awake and focused bashing the same mobs for hours with a couple of other people who were required to do the same. That's specially true for Everquest. That's not hard... that's resilience to the boredom of repeating the same thing over and over again. A lobotomized ape with a battery plugged on some body part where it hurts if he falls asleep could do the same.
Basically you repeat that, but you probably couldn't do it yourself.
Correction... I actually DID it back then, because there was little choice in available games and all had that form of mindless grind as part of progression, UO being the nicest and EQ the worse.
And today, it's not that I couldn't do it... it's that I wouldn't do it. I'm not stupid enough to get myself into some Evergrind again when there are much better designed games available in which difficulty equals challenging encounters, and not mindless repetitive grinds. I know better than that... and I rather spend my gaming time enjoying challenging raid fights with friends, and my spare time with family and friends in real life, instead of in front of a pack of mobs in some game for hours just to get to the really challenging part.
The ONLY reason why people like me endured those stupid grinds back then is because we wanted to be part of the really challenging part of the game, dungeons, raids and epic quests. Nowadays, the grinds are removed, the interesting parts remains, why would we want to go back to stone age?
That is where I disagree with you. The games today are not better. They are just easier and quicker. You are still being dupped. You are just not losing time. You are only being dupped out of your money for a far more hollow (IMO) experience. I doubt I would waste the time to grind in either old or no now. I have other things I'd rather do then play MMOs all day (though I'll admit these new ones are especially not worth while to me). I will however spend some time in some of the less time consuming, but good single player games that actually do offer some improvements in terms of challenge and an overall better cinematic experience then old games. To me new MMOs are simple old ones that have a few gimicky things added and have been made to be solo. Basically they are the same game, but made to be a lot easier for people. This is of course driven by the ever present need to get as much money as possible.
You are only being dupped out of your money for a far more hollow (IMO) experience.
So back then, you were "duped" out of your money to mindlessly grind mobs for months before you finally got to the challenging parts of the game, dungeons, raids, parts with some fights that are more than tank and spank to get XP without falling asleep in the process.
Yeah, that sounds so much better. Really, that wasn't a hoax at all. Please, pay to grind one year before you finally can hope to enter a raid, if the hosts aren't too demanding. That's absolutely not a money rape, at all.
I disagree with you on what was challenging. I felt just finding a place in the world was challenging. There were always decisions to be made that were meaningful. Similar to if you had lived in the game. On the flip side you can feel how hollow and linear the new MMOs are right away when you start playing. Who would even spend the small amount of time leveling up to get to the supposedly challenging combat? Perhaps I cared more about the exploring and having to deal with other people in game. I felt that was a more challenging and enjoyable experience then other than raiding. Raiding is something game developers tell you is the worthwhile part of the game. That doesn't make it so. I guess if all you care about is instanced end game combat then yes today's MMOs are better.
You are only being dupped out of your money for a far more hollow (IMO) experience.
So back then, you were "duped" out of your money to mindlessly grind mobs for months before you finally got to the challenging parts of the game, dungeons, raids, parts with some fights that are more than tank and spank to get XP without falling asleep in the process.
Yeah, that sounds so much better. Really, that wasn't a hoax at all. Please, pay to grind one year before you finally can hope to enter a raid, if the hosts aren't too demanding. That's absolutely not a money rape, at all.
I disagree with you on what was challenging. I felt just finding a place in the world was challenging. There were always decisions to be made that were meaningful. Similar to if you had lived in the game. On the flip side you can feel how hollow and linear the new MMOs are right away when you start playing. Who would even spend the small amount of time leveling up to get to the supposedly challenging combat? Perhaps I cared more about the exploring and having to deal with other people in game. I felt that was a more challenging and enjoyable experience then other than raiding. Raiding is something game developers tell you is the worthwhile part of the game. That doesn't make it so. I guess if all you care about is instanced end game combat then yes today's MMOs are better.
No developer ever told me what was worthwhile or enjoyable, thank you very much. I've always made that part up on my own. And grinding mobs never was, even when it was a necessary evil in order to get to the part I enjoy, be it in the world, in dungeons or in raids, which is hard fights where teamwork (with others, you know...) matters. And those fights never had to be instanced, one more ASSumption coming from you.
Camping in front of some rockdumb pack of mobs to pull them over and over again until you finally get one level never was a challenge for me, it has always been boring.
I suggest you spend less time ASSuming how people who disagree with you were/are playing, and more time understanding it.
At endgame you are grinding the same thing over and over even more often. You are doing so with less even less reward and basically all there is is combat. The only interesting thing that happens is once in a while you get a new item. At least when you are leveling up you are getting new skills. The problem is the leveling up process has to be more interesting then the easy sham it is today. It seems to me if you like raiding you shouldn't be calling other things in game tedious or a grind. That is an oxymoron.
Yes Ax, it's true that the epic leveling curve was something new to gaming. Although I saw it as an adventure curve. I got xp while adventuring and treasure hunting. Epic adventures were not new; being an Ultima guy you know that. Ultima games were among the most epic; I spent countless hours playing them (III and Iv) so much that I even played them in my dreams. EQ was the only other game to invade my dreams.
Flyte, we agree EQ was addicting because it was enjoyable. I think the social aspect is more responsible for it's addicting nature. I'd say 60/40.
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard ...What you call harder is the ability to stay awake and focused bashing the same mobs for hours...
I read about a sniper who took 36 hours to low-crawl to a position where he could snipe some foreign military commander. His pants soiled with filth, he finally found the target and took the shot.
You would argue it was the shot, by itself, that was noteworthy; not the task of getting in position.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon. In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
Originally posted by Kaledren I read it ty. Sure, you have more skills on a hot bar these days. But that is it. Every one of them has a set (class wise that is) that is most effective and spammed. It still doesn't make it much different from earlier ones, besides that in older mmorpg's taking on more than one or two mobs meant death in most cases, whereas now you can take on several mobs with little danger unless you disconnect, lag too much, or mess up real bad. Personally...yes, combat in,say EQ sucked in comparison to today's MMORPG's. As far as melee s concerned anyway. But again, personally speaking I feel it was harder to succeed in combat due to not having as many useful abilities, etc and tougher mobs outside of the raid circle than compared to today's selections. Very few exceptions aside.
Even many old games had lots of skills on the bar. They were the ones most guilty of having a lot of skills but where only a handful were most efficient and spammed. But it's only key newer MMORPGs like WOW and FFXIV which created rotations where most of the skills were necessary in a certain order, adjusted for whatever disruptions the encounter was causing.
The number of mobs you face doesn't speak to the actual challenge experienced. A game can be hard or easy with many or few mobs per pull.
Combat in early MMORPGs sucked because a large part of mastery was, "Is his HP bar falling faster than mine? Yes? Okay, easy victory as long as there aren't adds." Apart from that all you needed was time. And a lot of it, because you were going to repeat the previous HP-race boring fight over and over and over again.
Druids, Rangers, and even Enchanters in EQ routinely rotated spells for a particular situation.
Really though any fight with AI in any MMORPG is going to become boring. All you need to do is learn the patterns and what spells work best. Like every other game out there. Until the create better AI that adapts, it will always be that way. Not like it was just older games.
But I am not going to continue this pointless back and forth. We are both right, and both wrong, based on our own personal experiences and likes/dislikes as far as challenge, fun, and perception of particular games and their mechanics are concerned. Difference in outlooks...so there really is no point to discuss this further.
Originally posted by Kaledren I read it ty. Sure, you have more skills on a hot bar these days. But that is it. Every one of them has a set (class wise that is) that is most effective and spammed. It still doesn't make it much different from earlier ones, besides that in older mmorpg's taking on more than one or two mobs meant death in most cases, whereas now you can take on several mobs with little danger unless you disconnect, lag too much, or mess up real bad. Personally...yes, combat in,say EQ sucked in comparison to today's MMORPG's. As far as melee s concerned anyway. But again, personally speaking I feel it was harder to succeed in combat due to not having as many useful abilities, etc and tougher mobs outside of the raid circle than compared to today's selections. Very few exceptions aside.
Even many old games had lots of skills on the bar. They were the ones most guilty of having a lot of skills but where only a handful were most efficient and spammed. But it's only key newer MMORPGs like WOW and FFXIV which created rotations where most of the skills were necessary in a certain order, adjusted for whatever disruptions the encounter was causing.
The number of mobs you face doesn't speak to the actual challenge experienced. A game can be hard or easy with many or few mobs per pull.
Combat in early MMORPGs sucked because a large part of mastery was, "Is his HP bar falling faster than mine? Yes? Okay, easy victory as long as there aren't adds." Apart from that all you needed was time. And a lot of it, because you were going to repeat the previous HP-race boring fight over and over and over again.
Actually this is pretty much false. In old MMOs there was almost always a chance of dying. Most people in EQ fought light blue mobs (yes no real number level indicator) which is basically many levels bellow you. Generally even green mobs (no experience gained) could kill you if there were a few of them and the aggro in that game was a lot larger in terms of radius then current MMOs. Most of the fights would be close and could easily land in the mobs favor. Even kiting classes could die easily from getting to close to a mob. Most caster mobs were almost unkillable solo. Healer mobs were almost immortal as they never ran out of magic. Did you ever feel like you were going to die at all in modern games during the leveling proccess? Even if you felt that did you care? Oh no I have to walk a few feet to get back to that same mob and kill them (my god!).
I actually fought Dark Blue, White and Yellow quite a bit. Was more fun and more challenging. Sometimes down right frightening and required running or dying. But had a blast doing it.
In reply to a few different posts aimed at me. I am generally just here to prove that leveling was harder.
Which is bullshit. What you call harder is the ability to stay awake and focused bashing the same mobs for hours with a couple of other people who were required to do the same. That's specially true for Everquest. That's not hard... that's resilience to the boredom of repeating the same thing over and over again. A lobotomized ape with a battery plugged on some body part where it hurts if he falls asleep could do the same.
Basically you repeat that, but you probably couldn't do it yourself.
Assumtions only make you one thing, my young friend...
I actually DID it back then, because there was little choice in available games and all had that form of mindless grind as part of progression, UO being the nicest and EQ the worse. If you wanted to play a MMORPG, you had to do at least a part of that grind.
And today, it's not that I couldn't do it... it's that I wouldn't do it. I'm not stupid enough to get myself into some Evergrind again when there are much better designed games available in which difficulty equals challenging encounters, and not mindless repetitive grinds. I know better than that... and I rather spend my gaming time enjoying challenging raid fights with friends, and my spare time with family and friends in real life, instead of in front of a pack of mobs in some game for hours just to get to the really challenging part.
The ONLY reason why people like me endured those stupid grinds back then is because we wanted to be part of the really challenging part of the game, dungeons, raids and epic quests. Nowadays, the grinds are removed, the interesting parts remains, why would we want to go back to stone age?
The highlighted portion here. Those dungeons, raids and epic quests...even in today's MMORPG's you hail as superior, are FULL of grind. It's just masked better, but it's still there. DKP wouldn't exist still if there was no grind trying to get particular raid items, etc.
I remember even in WoW going to particular raids a couple dozen times to get what I wanted.
2) You shared your account with 2 ppl so as a team you could have the best character.
3) If you died you were so screwed.......
What else...?
Yes, i remember (not so glory) days when cars did not have air conditioning, no servo breaks, ... and I do not miss at all that times. Except for the fact I was much younger then. :-)
When cars didn't have air?
Are you like 59?
I learned to drive on a double clutching 3/4 ton flatbed pickup. It didn't have air. I am 60.
Are you like 14?
I'm in my 30's..
Did the f--ker have air vents?
Air vents and a moveable windshield. Couldn't speed in it at all (55 mph tops), but it could've pulled houses off their foundations. 1947 International Harvester PU. Cool in a retro diesel-punk style.
But on topic, I didn't play the equivalent antique MMOs. Intentionally.
Yeah, hard to set through a PnP or Apple 2GS session with jockitch! lol
But some of us jocks managed to be just as big a dweeb as we were an athlete.
"Investment firms do not have that outlook on life. They need to know there is not only a return on their investment but also a solid profit at the end of it." tawess-
Actually this is pretty much false. In old MMOs there was almost always a chance of dying. Most people in EQ fought light blue mobs (yes no real number level indicator) which is basically many levels bellow you. Generally even green mobs (no experience gained) could kill you if there were a few of them and the aggro in that game was a lot larger in terms of radius then current MMOs. Most of the fights would be close and could easily land in the mobs favor. Even kiting classes could die easily from getting to close to a mob. Most caster mobs were almost unkillable solo. Healer mobs were almost immortal as they never ran out of magic. Did you ever feel like you were going to die at all in modern games during the leveling proccess? Even if you felt that did you care? Oh no I have to walk a few feet to get back to that same mob and kill them (my god!).
Right, if you didn't watch the healthbar race you could still die. But let's be honest: watching the healthbar race didn't exactly take a lot of skill. Significant decisions (skill) weren't involved, mostly a struggle against falling asleep (and thus dying.)
I've died nearly as often in modern MMORPGs as early ones. Anyone who doesn't push the limit in terms of their character's performance is probably taking it so slowly and easily that they're being incredibly efficient. You don't know where the line is til you cross it.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I want a game without magic or healing potions of any kind that makes you take a recovery break after battle. lol
Does that make me a jackass? =D
"Investment firms do not have that outlook on life. They need to know there is not only a return on their investment but also a solid profit at the end of it." tawess-
Actually this is pretty much false. In old MMOs there was almost always a chance of dying. Most people in EQ fought light blue mobs (yes no real number level indicator) which is basically many levels bellow you. Generally even green mobs (no experience gained) could kill you if there were a few of them and the aggro in that game was a lot larger in terms of radius then current MMOs. Most of the fights would be close and could easily land in the mobs favor. Even kiting classes could die easily from getting to close to a mob. Most caster mobs were almost unkillable solo. Healer mobs were almost immortal as they never ran out of magic. Did you ever feel like you were going to die at all in modern games during the leveling proccess? Even if you felt that did you care? Oh no I have to walk a few feet to get back to that same mob and kill them (my god!).
Right, if you didn't watch the healthbar race you could still die. But let's be honest: watching the healthbar race didn't exactly take a lot of skill. Significant decisions (skill) weren't involved, mostly a struggle against falling asleep (and thus dying.)
I've died nearly as often in modern MMORPGs as early ones. Anyone who doesn't push the limit in terms of their character's performance is probably taking it so slowly and easily that they're being incredibly efficient. You don't know where the line is til you cross it.
I don't really understand how today's MMOs require so much more skill.
In one you generally have to push buttons in a specific order at a specific time. Most of it is just timing. That is not really a whole lot different then what you had to do in old MMOs. There may be a few more buttons to push, but in general it is the same thing. There differences and one is what you pointed out. You have to watch your health bar and other peoples health bars. You have to figure out when to be aggressive and when to sit back. There were a lot of different roles to play and so more reliance in many ways on others to do their job well. If they failed the whole group would likely die.
Then you factor in the death penalties, random trains, increased agro radius, wandering mobs, slow death of mobs, and having to deal with respawns. Then take into account that weapons were often not powerful and mobs depending on their class and abilities could cause a lot more trouble with long duration, snares, roots, fear, death touch, multiple lay on hands for full health, unlimited mana (for casters), inflated stats, and in general aimed at groups.
In general you add up all these different factors and chance to die increases and with the death penalty you have even more issues.
Weather you have to push a complicated sequence exactly at the right time when the buttons light up is only one single factor in the difficulty of a game. There are many more non related to combat that often effect combat, chance of dying, and overall difficulty.
In order to succeed in a such an environment you really need to have some measure of skill to avoid death and persist to level up. It is akin to going into a world full of dangers vs a world where you are generally protected by a spherical bubble to make your game experience more likely to be an enjoyable one. I believe the tactic works as we see people are more happy when they succeed then when they are fail and are punished for failing. If they are quickly rewarded, don't have to deal with others, have the game mechanics shifted to give them an advantage during the leveling process, have instructions guiding them every step of the way, and in general are just very insulated from any potential frustrations then it makes most people feel better I guess. Difficulty generally dissuades masses of people from playing a game.
Leave us not forget stat checks and saving throws were all left to chance, so even winning you might have a Pyrrhic Victory, or still be left in the mud...
I know I left a trail of bones over the Highmoores.
"Investment firms do not have that outlook on life. They need to know there is not only a return on their investment but also a solid profit at the end of it." tawess-
Maybe you remember, in the glory days, MMOs were so hard that the installation CD would spin-up, shatter and kill you if it detected any hint of whining.
Noooooo, you reminded me of the fate of my MTW:VI disk!
"Investment firms do not have that outlook on life. They need to know there is not only a return on their investment but also a solid profit at the end of it." tawess-
I don't really understand how today's MMOs require so much more skill.
In one you generally have to push buttons in a specific order at a specific time. Most of it is just timing. That is not really a whole lot different then what you had to do in old MMOs. There may be a few more buttons to push, but in general it is the same thing. There differences and one is what you pointed out. You have to watch your health bar and other peoples health bars. You have to figure out when to be aggressive and when to sit back. There were a lot of different roles to play and so more reliance in many ways on others to do their job well. If they failed the whole group would likely die.
Then you factor in the death penalties, random trains, increased agro radius, wandering mobs, slow death of mobs, and having to deal with respawns. Then take into account that weapons were often not powerful and mobs depending on their class and abilities could cause a lot more trouble with long duration, snares, roots, fear, death touch, multiple lay on hands for full health, unlimited mana (for casters), inflated stats, and in general aimed at groups.
In general you add up all these different factors and chance to die increases and with the death penalty you have even more issues.
Weather you have to push a complicated sequence exactly at the right time when the buttons light up is only one single factor in the difficulty of a game. There are many more non related to combat that often effect combat, chance of dying, and overall difficulty.
In order to succeed in a such an environment you really need to have some measure of skill to avoid death and persist to level up. It is akin to going into a world full of dangers vs a world where you are generally protected by a spherical bubble to make your game experience more likely to be an enjoyable one. I believe the tactic works as we see people are more happy when they succeed then when they are fail and are punished for failing. If they are quickly rewarded, don't have to deal with others, have the game mechanics shifted to give them an advantage during the leveling process, have instructions guiding them every step of the way, and in general are just very insulated from any potential frustrations then it makes most people feel better I guess. Difficulty generally dissuades masses of people from playing a game.
I've explained precisely why modern MMORPGs require more skill. (Not "so much more". Just more.) Modern games involve more and more complex decisions during combat, and early MMORPGs involving fewer and simpler decisions. The rotation is the biggest factor in combat depth because it's the most frequent stream of decisions being made during fights.
We covered earlier how most of the depth of early MMORPGs' systems was retained in modern MMORPGs (with aggro/threat as one system among many.) So when rotations matured with later games, the result was deeper games overall. (Since all the things like watching the HP race, aggro, when to be aggressive, etc, still exist in modern MMORPGs.)
We covered before that how penalties happen after the skill-check, and therefore have no influence over the skill requirement of a game's encounters.
Of course you needed "some measure" of skill in those early games. I'm calmly discussing reality and avoiding hyperbole - I'm not saying early MMORPGs involved no measure of skill, and I'm not saying modern MMORPGs involve infinite amounts of skill. I'm only saying that because modern games have a nonstop series of active choices (ie your rotation) they ended up rewarding skill to a much higher degree than the auto-attack-heavy games of the past.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I don't really understand how today's MMOs require so much more skill.
In one you generally have to push buttons in a specific order at a specific time. Most of it is just timing. That is not really a whole lot different then what you had to do in old MMOs. There may be a few more buttons to push, but in general it is the same thing. There differences and one is what you pointed out. You have to watch your health bar and other peoples health bars. You have to figure out when to be aggressive and when to sit back. There were a lot of different roles to play and so more reliance in many ways on others to do their job well. If they failed the whole group would likely die.
Then you factor in the death penalties, random trains, increased agro radius, wandering mobs, slow death of mobs, and having to deal with respawns. Then take into account that weapons were often not powerful and mobs depending on their class and abilities could cause a lot more trouble with long duration, snares, roots, fear, death touch, multiple lay on hands for full health, unlimited mana (for casters), inflated stats, and in general aimed at groups.
In general you add up all these different factors and chance to die increases and with the death penalty you have even more issues.
Weather you have to push a complicated sequence exactly at the right time when the buttons light up is only one single factor in the difficulty of a game. There are many more non related to combat that often effect combat, chance of dying, and overall difficulty.
In order to succeed in a such an environment you really need to have some measure of skill to avoid death and persist to level up. It is akin to going into a world full of dangers vs a world where you are generally protected by a spherical bubble to make your game experience more likely to be an enjoyable one. I believe the tactic works as we see people are more happy when they succeed then when they are fail and are punished for failing. If they are quickly rewarded, don't have to deal with others, have the game mechanics shifted to give them an advantage during the leveling process, have instructions guiding them every step of the way, and in general are just very insulated from any potential frustrations then it makes most people feel better I guess. Difficulty generally dissuades masses of people from playing a game.
I've explained precisely why modern MMORPGs require more skill. (Not "so much more". Just more.) Modern games involve more and more complex decisions during combat, and early MMORPGs involving fewer and simpler decisions. The rotation is the biggest factor in combat depth because it's the most frequent stream of decisions being made during fights.
We covered earlier how most of the depth of early MMORPGs' systems was retained in modern MMORPGs (with aggro/threat as one system among many.) So when rotations matured with later games, the result was deeper games overall. (Since all the things like watching the HP race, aggro, when to be aggressive, etc, still exist in modern MMORPGs.)
We covered before that how penalties happen after the skill-check, and therefore have no influence over the skill requirement of a game's encounters.
Of course you needed "some measure" of skill in those early games. I'm calmly discussing reality and avoiding hyperbole - I'm not saying early MMORPGs involved no measure of skill, and I'm not saying modern MMORPGs involve infinite amounts of skill. I'm only saying that because modern games have a nonstop series of active choices (ie your rotation) they ended up rewarding skill to a much higher degree than the auto-attack-heavy games of the past.
I would reiterate that basing difficulty on combat in an isolated bubble is not really a good way to say that MMORPGs are more complex. Even if the combat were more complex (which I don't really agree with), I've already explained that there are many more factors that went into making it more difficult and I've laid them out many times. I'm glad you are calmly speaking about it, but generally you are just saying the same things with little new to offer. You are basically saying that end game combat in current MMOs is more complex because of various different rotations and non stop action during the course of the battle. In reality there are less decisions to make in current MMOs overall. There may or may not be more decisions during combat (thought I don't agree with that), but in the overall scope of things it is easy to level up due to the lack of death penalty and various other factors I have pointed out that increase your chance of dying. There is no resistance to prevent you from leveling. Basically the only resistance you face is you can die. Other people can't effect you. Monsters are mostly setup not to assist. Classes have all be setup to be able to solo easily. Monsters in outside areas have all be balanced to easily be beaten solo. I could go on and on, but combat is really just a small part of what makes and MMO difficult and even if you said that it was the main part it is far easier to beat your opponents during the leveling process due to the monsters being artificially made weaker and easily beatable on purpose. RIght off the bat in an old MMO you could go out and easily get killed by something like a rat or beetle and loose all your gear. A mob often might wander right across you or someone might pull a train on you. Figuring out how to deal with these things was generally harder then figuring out how to do a rotation in combat no matter how complex.
Axehilt..you never addressed my response on EQ pertaining to rotations. They existed then as they do now.
Sure, playing as a melee class in EQ required not much more than pressing auto-attack, sitting back, and hoping you don't miss a lot. But, playing a Druid, Enchanter, or even a Ranger involved rotations. Especially in raids where a mistake could mean a wipe... same as now.
Druids, Rangers, and even Enchanters in EQ routinely rotated spells for a particular situation.
Really though any fight with AI in any MMORPG is going to become boring. All you need to do is learn the patterns and what spells work best. Like every other game out there. Until the create better AI that adapts, it will always be that way. Not like it was just older games.
But I am not going to continue this pointless back and forth. We are both right, and both wrong, based on our own personal experiences and likes/dislikes as far as challenge, fun, and perception of particular games and their mechanics are concerned. Difference in outlooks...so there really is no point to discuss this further.
It's not a matter of "have a rotation" any more than a game can be considered great for simply "having decisions". Checkers has decisions, but it's the nuances of Chess' decision that makes it much harder to master.
But sure if you can link to a guide showing those class' rotations to be on par with the complexity that makes Warlock rotation deep, then by all means link to that proof.
Adaptive AI is unlikely to ever happen in MMORPGs because it works against the intended design that those mobs are puzzles to be solved. They're not supposed to be puzzles which are impossible to unravel because they're always changing.
Also I got a laugh out of the fact that I genuinely missed this post the first time, then you asked me to come back and respond to it, and then it ends with "I am not going to continue this pointless back and forth."
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I would reiterate that basing difficulty on combat in an isolated bubble is not really a good way to say that MMORPGs are more complex. Even if the combat were more complex (which I don't really agree with), I've already explained that there are many more factors that went into making it more difficult and I've laid them out many times. I'm glad you are calmly speaking about it, but generally you are just saying the same things with little new to offer. You are basically saying that end game combat in current MMOs is more complex because of various different rotations and non stop action during the course of the battle. In reality there are less decisions to make in current MMOs overall. There may or may not be more decisions during combat (thought I don't agree with that), but in the overall scope of things it is easy to level up due to the lack of death penalty and various other factors I have pointed out that increase your chance of dying. There is no resistance to prevent you from leveling. Basically the only resistance you face is you can die. Other people can't effect you. Monsters are mostly setup not to assist. Classes have all be setup to be able to solo easily. Monsters in outside areas have all be balanced to easily be beaten solo. I could go on and on, but combat is really just a small part of what makes and MMO difficult and even if you said that it was the main part it is far easier to beat your opponents during the leveling process due to the monsters being artificially made weaker and easily beatable on purpose. RIght off the bat in an old MMO you could go out and easily get killed by something like a rat or beetle and loose all your gear. A mob often might wander right across you or someone might pull a train on you. Figuring out how to deal with these things was generally harder then figuring out how to do a rotation in combat no matter how complex.
Combat is what you spend 80% or more of your time doing. It's not an "isolated bubble". It's the majority of the game! If the thing you do most in a game is shallow, the game is shallow.
Why would you still disagree that modern games offer deeper combat? Does this mean you have a rotation on par with the warlock rotation from early MMORPGs? Or does it only mean that you've ignored it each time I've pointed out that 80% of those other factors you're listing still exist in modern games?
Of course I'm repeating myself. If we discussed the sky, would you tire of my calling it blue? The sky is blue, and the objectively more complex rotations represent objectively more complex decisions. The non-rotation decisions are mostly all still present in modern games. The slight net-negative due to a handful of missing aspects doesn't outweigh the strong net-positive of the deeper rotations.
What do you mean other people can't affect me? If the tanks, DPS, or healers aren't doing their job, that definitely affects me.
Monsters failing to assist is something that definitely happens less in modern MMORPGs, but which goes back to my repeatedly pointing out that early MMORPGs were largely about managing how many mobs you fought, and much less about how you fought them. Social aggro was a major factor in that, but overall it was a doomed direction because of the lack of variation. (You can create a lot of interesting mob abilities to vary combat, but you can't create nearly as many ways for mobs to shout for help.)
Classes can solo easily. Turns out unskilled players pay for entertainment, and aren't interested in a game that says "you're not skilled enough, go away." Turns out games that did do that made less money. If you want the tough challenges, play the tough challenges (instead of complaining that unskilled players can enjoy their easy challenges.) Do you want those challenges earlier in leveling? So do I: MMORPGs should absolutely embrace CoH-style difficulty sliders.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Originally posted by KaledrenDruids, Rangers, and even Enchanters in EQ routinely rotated spells for a particular situation.Really though any fight with AI in any MMORPG is going to become boring. All you need to do is learn the patterns and what spells work best. Like every other game out there. Until the create better AI that adapts, it will always be that way. Not like it was just older games.But I am not going to continue this pointless back and forth. We are both right, and both wrong, based on our own personal experiences and likes/dislikes as far as challenge, fun, and perception of particular games and their mechanics are concerned. Difference in outlooks...so there really is no point to discuss this further.
It's not a matter of "have a rotation" any more than a game can be considered great for simply "having decisions". Checkers has decisions, but it's the nuances of Chess' decision that makes it much harder to master.
But sure if you can link to a guide showing those class' rotations to be on par with the complexity that makes Warlock rotation deep, then by all means link to that proof.
Adaptive AI is unlikely to ever happen in MMORPGs because it works against the intended design that those mobs are puzzles to be solved. They're not supposed to be puzzles which are impossible to unravel because they're always changing.
Also I got a laugh out of the fact that I genuinely missed this post the first time, then you asked me to come back and respond to it, and then it ends with "I am not going to continue this pointless back and forth."
Well when, much like Nari, you consistently diss old school games and always seem to have some halfass answer to circumvent a point someone else brings up that shows what you previously said to not be the case...hey, gonna point it out. Especially with the arrogance in your tone.
I would reiterate that basing difficulty on combat in an isolated bubble is not really a good way to say that MMORPGs are more complex. Even if the combat were more complex (which I don't really agree with), I've already explained that there are many more factors that went into making it more difficult and I've laid them out many times. I'm glad you are calmly speaking about it, but generally you are just saying the same things with little new to offer. You are basically saying that end game combat in current MMOs is more complex because of various different rotations and non stop action during the course of the battle. In reality there are less decisions to make in current MMOs overall. There may or may not be more decisions during combat (thought I don't agree with that), but in the overall scope of things it is easy to level up due to the lack of death penalty and various other factors I have pointed out that increase your chance of dying. There is no resistance to prevent you from leveling. Basically the only resistance you face is you can die. Other people can't effect you. Monsters are mostly setup not to assist. Classes have all be setup to be able to solo easily. Monsters in outside areas have all be balanced to easily be beaten solo. I could go on and on, but combat is really just a small part of what makes and MMO difficult and even if you said that it was the main part it is far easier to beat your opponents during the leveling process due to the monsters being artificially made weaker and easily beatable on purpose. RIght off the bat in an old MMO you could go out and easily get killed by something like a rat or beetle and loose all your gear. A mob often might wander right across you or someone might pull a train on you. Figuring out how to deal with these things was generally harder then figuring out how to do a rotation in combat no matter how complex.
Combat is what you spend 80% or more of your time doing. It's not an "isolated bubble". It's the majority of the game! If the thing you do most in a game is shallow, the game is shallow.
Why would you still disagree that modern games offer deeper combat? Does this mean you have a rotation on par with the warlock rotation from early MMORPGs? Or does it only mean that you've ignored it each time I've pointed out that 80% of those other factors you're listing still exist in modern games?
Of course I'm repeating myself. If we discussed the sky, would you tire of my calling it blue? The sky is blue, and the objectively more complex rotations represent objectively more complex decisions. The non-rotation decisions are mostly all still present in modern games. The slight net-negative due to a handful of missing aspects doesn't outweigh the strong net-positive of the deeper rotations.
What do you mean other people can't affect me? If the tanks, DPS, or healers aren't doing their job, that definitely affects me.
Monsters failing to assist is something that definitely happens less in modern MMORPGs, but which goes back to my repeatedly pointing out that early MMORPGs were largely about managing how many mobs you fought, and much less about how you fought them. Social aggro was a major factor in that, but overall it was a doomed direction because of the lack of variation. (You can create a lot of interesting mob abilities to vary combat, but you can't create nearly as many ways for mobs to shout for help.)
Classes can solo easily. Turns out unskilled players pay for entertainment, and aren't interested in a game that says "you're not skilled enough, go away." Turns out games that did do that made less money. If you want the tough challenges, play the tough challenges (instead of complaining that unskilled players can enjoy their easy challenges.) Do you want those challenges earlier in leveling? So do I: MMORPGs should absolutely embrace CoH-style difficulty sliders.
I believe your first and last comments basically sum it up for me. If combat is shallow 80% of the game then it is not enjoyable. Since every class can solo easily and in general everyone can solo easily it is shallow for me. There might be some redeeming quality to it if there was a least something interesting during the majority of the game which is the leveling process. I always enjoyed the leveling process more then the endgame. I prefer solo and small group combat over large scale raiding. I prefer to have a challenging world simulation with lots of different things going on as opposed to a world that is just kill things, level, and kill some more things. During the course of the leveling process your character generally changes a lot and the more time you spend in an area the more rewarding it is when you get to a new area. Likewise the more time you spend with certain equipment the more rewarding it is when you get a new piece. The more random elements thrown in that you have to be aware of them more interesting it becomes. In general elements I mentioned like people pulling trains at you, mobs wandering across your path, respawns, etc.
I felt that in older games when I soloed (not every class could solo) that not only could I break the rules of what was intended in game in terms of being able to solo, but also that because classes were not intended to be able to solo making a mistake against a mob meant you were likely to die. Generally they artificially were made more difficult stat wise and the abilities the monsters had lasted a long time if they landed on you. Yes a lot of it was agro management and simple keeping sharp, but that is a skill unto itself. I find in current games I really don't have to keep sharp during the leveling process. It doesn't matter if I die so and the mobs are already intentionally made soloable easily. Between the two, no death penalty, items dropping like candy, being basically in a bubble where noting bad can happen to me, and overall just how everything is set up for you to have an easy time on a set path through the game makes the game uninteresting to me.
To expand on what I mean by being in a bubble (I thought I had explained this before) you are generally insulated from any adverse things happening. The most that can happen is you can die, but will respawn quickly to try again with no penalty. Most of the content is instanced, the mobs die quickly, and you generally don't ever have to wait for a turn. Other people never have can have an impact on your game. Mobs are made to not follow you and allow you to easily escape if it is even worth it to run away since the death penalty is nothing. With things like automatic loot rolling you never have ninja looters to deal with and never have to discuss how you are going to deal with loot distribution. With auction houses you never have to meet with someone and talk to them about trading. With fast travel you never have to ask someone to teleport you or give you a speed enhancement buff. With quest markers and directions that guide you on exactly what to do and where to go there is no real problem solving taking place in the game. You are simple following a path that has been set out before you where you can fail (I know your argument on this one about being able to do what you want, but taking into account the other factors I just mentioned the world is fairly boring to explore with no real dangers or penalties. In general one game is simulating a harsh survival environment similar to what hunter gathers likely would have experienced a long time ago. The other is simply a simple game about killing and following ! points around where you can't lose because it's setup to be that way through the majority of the game (or the part of the game that I enjoy playing).
I agree with you that the leveling process and games in general have been made easy aside from endgame intentionally to draw in more people and make them feel like they are accomplishing something by hitting max level. I have said as much before.
Originally posted by Kaledren Well when, much like Nari, you consistently diss old school games and always seem to have some halfass answer to circumvent a point someone else brings up that shows what you previously said to not be the case...hey, gonna point it out. Especially with the arrogance in your tone.
It's not arrogant to constantly ask others to use logic and evidence in their discussion of these topics. It's the only sane way to have a discussion. Anything less and you just invite whatever random hearsay or flimsy opinions people can come up with (and people can come up with some seriously wrong-minded opinions.)
If I say early MMORPGs weren't hard so much as they were time-consuming, and present compelling evidence showing how modern MMORPGs involve significantly more skill, then that's fairly compelling evidence that maybe we shouldn't be calling early MMORPGs "so hard".
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I believe your first and last comments basically sum it up for me. If combat is shallow 80% of the game then it is not enjoyable. Since every class can solo easily and in general everyone can solo easily it is shallow for me. There might be some redeeming quality to it if there was a least something interesting during the majority of the game which is the leveling process. I always enjoyed the leveling process more then the endgame. I prefer solo and small group combat over large scale raiding. I prefer to have a challenging world simulation with lots of different things going on as opposed to a world that is just kill things, level, and kill some more things. During the course of the leveling process your character generally changes a lot and the more time you spend in an area the more rewarding it is when you get to a new area. Likewise the more time you spend with certain equipment the more rewarding it is when you get a new piece. The more random elements thrown in that you have to be aware of them more interesting it becomes. In general elements I mentioned like people pulling trains at you, mobs wandering across your path, respawns, etc.
I felt that in older games when I soloed (not every class could solo) that not only could I break the rules of what was intended in game in terms of being able to solo, but also that because classes were not intended to be able to solo making a mistake against a mob meant you were likely to die. Generally they artificially were made more difficult stat wise and the abilities the monsters had lasted a long time if they landed on you. Yes a lot of it was agro management and simple keeping sharp, but that is a skill unto itself. I find in current games I really don't have to keep sharp during the leveling process. It doesn't matter if I die so and the mobs are already intentionally made soloable easily. Between the two, no death penalty, items dropping like candy, being basically in a bubble where noting bad can happen to me, and overall just how everything is set up for you to have an easy time on a set path through the game makes the game uninteresting to me.
To expand on what I mean by being in a bubble (I thought I had explained this before) you are generally insulated from any adverse things happening. The most that can happen is you can die, but will respawn quickly to try again with no penalty. Most of the content is instanced, the mobs die quickly, and you generally don't ever have to wait for a turn. Other people never have can have an impact on your game. Mobs are made to not follow you and allow you to easily escape if it is even worth it to run away since the death penalty is nothing. With things like automatic loot rolling you never have ninja looters to deal with and never have to discuss how you are going to deal with loot distribution. With auction houses you never have to meet with someone and talk to them about trading. With fast travel you never have to ask someone to teleport you or give you a speed enhancement buff. With quest markers and directions that guide you on exactly what to do and where to go there is no real problem solving taking place in the game. You are simple following a path that has been set out before you where you can fail (I know your argument on this one about being able to do what you want, but taking into account the other factors I just mentioned the world is fairly boring to explore with no real dangers or penalties. In general one game is simulating a harsh survival environment similar to what hunter gathers likely would have experienced a long time ago. The other is simply a simple game about killing and following ! points around where you can't lose because it's setup to be that way through the majority of the game (or the part of the game that I enjoy playing).
I agree with you that the leveling process and games in general have been made easy aside from endgame intentionally to draw in more people and make them feel like they are accomplishing something by hitting max level. I have said as much before.
Well we're making a comparison. Is it bad that for a good chunk of modern MMORPGs things aren't hard enough for the depth to emerge? Yes. But it's still a step up from early MMORPGs where combat is never as deep. Better to play the game where once you get past the tutorial (leveling) things are consistently deep than the one which is consistently not-as-deep.
Er, but you're not isolated from "any adverse things", because the monster is trying to kill you (adverse thing) and your teammates might screw up (adverse thing.) All the adverse things exist within the encounter itself, allowing it to function as a true skill challenge and not some variable thing where one group zergs the place and experiences almost no challenge while another group gets blown away by a train.
Your isolation is mostly from situations where other players are overwhelmingly negative. These are MMOs, and if other players are overwhelmingly negative to your game experience then things won't work. If a player runs by with a train and your mobs call for help, well then that random noob (whom you can't control, unlike your party where you definitely can replace trolls and underperformers) wiped your group.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I believe your first and last comments basically sum it up for me. If combat is shallow 80% of the game then it is not enjoyable. Since every class can solo easily and in general everyone can solo easily it is shallow for me. There might be some redeeming quality to it if there was a least something interesting during the majority of the game which is the leveling process. I always enjoyed the leveling process more then the endgame. I prefer solo and small group combat over large scale raiding. I prefer to have a challenging world simulation with lots of different things going on as opposed to a world that is just kill things, level, and kill some more things. During the course of the leveling process your character generally changes a lot and the more time you spend in an area the more rewarding it is when you get to a new area. Likewise the more time you spend with certain equipment the more rewarding it is when you get a new piece. The more random elements thrown in that you have to be aware of them more interesting it becomes. In general elements I mentioned like people pulling trains at you, mobs wandering across your path, respawns, etc.
I felt that in older games when I soloed (not every class could solo) that not only could I break the rules of what was intended in game in terms of being able to solo, but also that because classes were not intended to be able to solo making a mistake against a mob meant you were likely to die. Generally they artificially were made more difficult stat wise and the abilities the monsters had lasted a long time if they landed on you. Yes a lot of it was agro management and simple keeping sharp, but that is a skill unto itself. I find in current games I really don't have to keep sharp during the leveling process. It doesn't matter if I die so and the mobs are already intentionally made soloable easily. Between the two, no death penalty, items dropping like candy, being basically in a bubble where noting bad can happen to me, and overall just how everything is set up for you to have an easy time on a set path through the game makes the game uninteresting to me.
To expand on what I mean by being in a bubble (I thought I had explained this before) you are generally insulated from any adverse things happening. The most that can happen is you can die, but will respawn quickly to try again with no penalty. Most of the content is instanced, the mobs die quickly, and you generally don't ever have to wait for a turn. Other people never have can have an impact on your game. Mobs are made to not follow you and allow you to easily escape if it is even worth it to run away since the death penalty is nothing. With things like automatic loot rolling you never have ninja looters to deal with and never have to discuss how you are going to deal with loot distribution. With auction houses you never have to meet with someone and talk to them about trading. With fast travel you never have to ask someone to teleport you or give you a speed enhancement buff. With quest markers and directions that guide you on exactly what to do and where to go there is no real problem solving taking place in the game. You are simple following a path that has been set out before you where you can fail (I know your argument on this one about being able to do what you want, but taking into account the other factors I just mentioned the world is fairly boring to explore with no real dangers or penalties. In general one game is simulating a harsh survival environment similar to what hunter gathers likely would have experienced a long time ago. The other is simply a simple game about killing and following ! points around where you can't lose because it's setup to be that way through the majority of the game (or the part of the game that I enjoy playing).
I agree with you that the leveling process and games in general have been made easy aside from endgame intentionally to draw in more people and make them feel like they are accomplishing something by hitting max level. I have said as much before.
Well we're making a comparison. Is it bad that for a good chunk of modern MMORPGs things aren't hard enough for the depth to emerge? Yes. But it's still a step up from early MMORPGs where combat is never as deep. Better to play the game where once you get past the tutorial (leveling) things are consistently deep than the one which is consistently not-as-deep.
Er, but you're not isolated from "any adverse things", because the monster is trying to kill you (adverse thing) and your teammates might screw up (adverse thing.) All the adverse things exist within the encounter itself, allowing it to function as a true skill challenge and not some variable thing where one group zergs the place and experiences almost no challenge while another group gets blown away by a train.
Your isolation is mostly from situations where other players are overwhelmingly negative. These are MMOs, and if other players are overwhelmingly negative to your game experience then things won't work. If a player runs by with a train and your mobs call for help, well then that random noob (whom you can't control, unlike your party where you definitely can replace trolls and underperformers) wiped your group.
I think it's better to have a game with random variables like those that real people can provide. It is a more exciting experience.
As I mentioned there were a lot of different factors going on and things to do that contributed to difficulty of combat.
Focusing just on a single controlled encounter of combat is not interesting to me. It is also fairly shallow regardless of how complex they make the button pushing. As I've explained it doesn't really matter if your really don't need to execute those combination to win in general.
In general the isolation form anything negative is my point. Without the negatives there really isn't anything worthwhile to overcome. There is no resistance placed before you but a very controlled environment that devs created for you to win in. This said environment is boring to the people who can see through it and realize they are just going through the motions for no real reason. Most of the content is exactly the same repeated and everything that would have given it any real variety has been taken out (real people interaction), death penalties, wandering mobs, or in general anything that forces you to remain alert to possible unknown variables entering into the equation.
I was thinking how people have said you need quests for a real purpose,but I believe quests often take purpose away. Hunter gathers purpose was simple to hunt and see what was over the next hill. Curiosity of new things was their purpose. I watched a movie where indians said the same thing. They said everyday they would climb the next hill to see what was on the other side. This to me is more interesting then just following a direct path where you are guided along. Just figure out what it is you want to do in the game yourself. I realize again that you can explore in current games, but there is no purpose as there is nothing exciting about exploring controlled environments. The environment needs to be wild and out of your control IMO. This is agian getting back to needing random elements/dangers to be interesting. You also have to consider that older games had set loot. Certain mobs would drop certain things. That also made exploring more worthwhile.
Comments
Basically you repeat that, but you probably couldn't do it yourself.
That is where I disagree with you. The games today are not better. They are just easier and quicker. You are still being dupped. You are just not losing time. You are only being dupped out of your money for a far more hollow (IMO) experience. I doubt I would waste the time to grind in either old or no now. I have other things I'd rather do then play MMOs all day (though I'll admit these new ones are especially not worth while to me). I will however spend some time in some of the less time consuming, but good single player games that actually do offer some improvements in terms of challenge and an overall better cinematic experience then old games. To me new MMOs are simple old ones that have a few gimicky things added and have been made to be solo. Basically they are the same game, but made to be a lot easier for people. This is of course driven by the ever present need to get as much money as possible.
I disagree with you on what was challenging. I felt just finding a place in the world was challenging. There were always decisions to be made that were meaningful. Similar to if you had lived in the game. On the flip side you can feel how hollow and linear the new MMOs are right away when you start playing. Who would even spend the small amount of time leveling up to get to the supposedly challenging combat? Perhaps I cared more about the exploring and having to deal with other people in game. I felt that was a more challenging and enjoyable experience then other than raiding. Raiding is something game developers tell you is the worthwhile part of the game. That doesn't make it so. I guess if all you care about is instanced end game combat then yes today's MMOs are better.
At endgame you are grinding the same thing over and over even more often. You are doing so with less even less reward and basically all there is is combat. The only interesting thing that happens is once in a while you get a new item. At least when you are leveling up you are getting new skills. The problem is the leveling up process has to be more interesting then the easy sham it is today. It seems to me if you like raiding you shouldn't be calling other things in game tedious or a grind. That is an oxymoron.
Yes Ax, it's true that the epic leveling curve was something new to gaming. Although I saw it as an adventure curve. I got xp while adventuring and treasure hunting. Epic adventures were not new; being an Ultima guy you know that. Ultima games were among the most epic; I spent countless hours playing them (III and Iv) so much that I even played them in my dreams. EQ was the only other game to invade my dreams.
Flyte, we agree EQ was addicting because it was enjoyable. I think the social aspect is more responsible for it's addicting nature. I'd say 60/40.
I read about a sniper who took 36 hours to low-crawl to a position where he could snipe some foreign military commander. His pants soiled with filth, he finally found the target and took the shot.
You would argue it was the shot, by itself, that was noteworthy; not the task of getting in position.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
Druids, Rangers, and even Enchanters in EQ routinely rotated spells for a particular situation.
Really though any fight with AI in any MMORPG is going to become boring. All you need to do is learn the patterns and what spells work best. Like every other game out there. Until the create better AI that adapts, it will always be that way. Not like it was just older games.
But I am not going to continue this pointless back and forth. We are both right, and both wrong, based on our own personal experiences and likes/dislikes as far as challenge, fun, and perception of particular games and their mechanics are concerned. Difference in outlooks...so there really is no point to discuss this further.
I actually fought Dark Blue, White and Yellow quite a bit. Was more fun and more challenging. Sometimes down right frightening and required running or dying. But had a blast doing it.
The highlighted portion here. Those dungeons, raids and epic quests...even in today's MMORPG's you hail as superior, are FULL of grind. It's just masked better, but it's still there. DKP wouldn't exist still if there was no grind trying to get particular raid items, etc.
I remember even in WoW going to particular raids a couple dozen times to get what I wanted.
Yeah, hard to set through a PnP or Apple 2GS session with jockitch! lol
But some of us jocks managed to be just as big a dweeb as we were an athlete.
"Investment firms do not have that outlook on life. They need to know there is not only a return on their investment but also a solid profit at the end of it." tawess-
Right, if you didn't watch the healthbar race you could still die. But let's be honest: watching the healthbar race didn't exactly take a lot of skill. Significant decisions (skill) weren't involved, mostly a struggle against falling asleep (and thus dying.)
I've died nearly as often in modern MMORPGs as early ones. Anyone who doesn't push the limit in terms of their character's performance is probably taking it so slowly and easily that they're being incredibly efficient. You don't know where the line is til you cross it.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I want a game without magic or healing potions of any kind that makes you take a recovery break after battle. lol
Does that make me a jackass? =D
"Investment firms do not have that outlook on life. They need to know there is not only a return on their investment but also a solid profit at the end of it." tawess-
I don't really understand how today's MMOs require so much more skill.
In one you generally have to push buttons in a specific order at a specific time. Most of it is just timing. That is not really a whole lot different then what you had to do in old MMOs. There may be a few more buttons to push, but in general it is the same thing. There differences and one is what you pointed out. You have to watch your health bar and other peoples health bars. You have to figure out when to be aggressive and when to sit back. There were a lot of different roles to play and so more reliance in many ways on others to do their job well. If they failed the whole group would likely die.
Then you factor in the death penalties, random trains, increased agro radius, wandering mobs, slow death of mobs, and having to deal with respawns. Then take into account that weapons were often not powerful and mobs depending on their class and abilities could cause a lot more trouble with long duration, snares, roots, fear, death touch, multiple lay on hands for full health, unlimited mana (for casters), inflated stats, and in general aimed at groups.
In general you add up all these different factors and chance to die increases and with the death penalty you have even more issues.
Weather you have to push a complicated sequence exactly at the right time when the buttons light up is only one single factor in the difficulty of a game. There are many more non related to combat that often effect combat, chance of dying, and overall difficulty.
In order to succeed in a such an environment you really need to have some measure of skill to avoid death and persist to level up. It is akin to going into a world full of dangers vs a world where you are generally protected by a spherical bubble to make your game experience more likely to be an enjoyable one. I believe the tactic works as we see people are more happy when they succeed then when they are fail and are punished for failing. If they are quickly rewarded, don't have to deal with others, have the game mechanics shifted to give them an advantage during the leveling process, have instructions guiding them every step of the way, and in general are just very insulated from any potential frustrations then it makes most people feel better I guess. Difficulty generally dissuades masses of people from playing a game.
Leave us not forget stat checks and saving throws were all left to chance, so even winning you might have a Pyrrhic Victory, or still be left in the mud...
I know I left a trail of bones over the Highmoores.
"Investment firms do not have that outlook on life. They need to know there is not only a return on their investment but also a solid profit at the end of it." tawess-
Crazkanuk
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Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
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"Investment firms do not have that outlook on life. They need to know there is not only a return on their investment but also a solid profit at the end of it." tawess-
I've explained precisely why modern MMORPGs require more skill. (Not "so much more". Just more.) Modern games involve more and more complex decisions during combat, and early MMORPGs involving fewer and simpler decisions. The rotation is the biggest factor in combat depth because it's the most frequent stream of decisions being made during fights.
We covered earlier how most of the depth of early MMORPGs' systems was retained in modern MMORPGs (with aggro/threat as one system among many.) So when rotations matured with later games, the result was deeper games overall. (Since all the things like watching the HP race, aggro, when to be aggressive, etc, still exist in modern MMORPGs.)
We covered before that how penalties happen after the skill-check, and therefore have no influence over the skill requirement of a game's encounters.
Of course you needed "some measure" of skill in those early games. I'm calmly discussing reality and avoiding hyperbole - I'm not saying early MMORPGs involved no measure of skill, and I'm not saying modern MMORPGs involve infinite amounts of skill. I'm only saying that because modern games have a nonstop series of active choices (ie your rotation) they ended up rewarding skill to a much higher degree than the auto-attack-heavy games of the past.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I would reiterate that basing difficulty on combat in an isolated bubble is not really a good way to say that MMORPGs are more complex. Even if the combat were more complex (which I don't really agree with), I've already explained that there are many more factors that went into making it more difficult and I've laid them out many times. I'm glad you are calmly speaking about it, but generally you are just saying the same things with little new to offer. You are basically saying that end game combat in current MMOs is more complex because of various different rotations and non stop action during the course of the battle. In reality there are less decisions to make in current MMOs overall. There may or may not be more decisions during combat (thought I don't agree with that), but in the overall scope of things it is easy to level up due to the lack of death penalty and various other factors I have pointed out that increase your chance of dying. There is no resistance to prevent you from leveling. Basically the only resistance you face is you can die. Other people can't effect you. Monsters are mostly setup not to assist. Classes have all be setup to be able to solo easily. Monsters in outside areas have all be balanced to easily be beaten solo. I could go on and on, but combat is really just a small part of what makes and MMO difficult and even if you said that it was the main part it is far easier to beat your opponents during the leveling process due to the monsters being artificially made weaker and easily beatable on purpose. RIght off the bat in an old MMO you could go out and easily get killed by something like a rat or beetle and loose all your gear. A mob often might wander right across you or someone might pull a train on you. Figuring out how to deal with these things was generally harder then figuring out how to do a rotation in combat no matter how complex.
Sure, playing as a melee class in EQ required not much more than pressing auto-attack, sitting back, and hoping you don't miss a lot. But, playing a Druid, Enchanter, or even a Ranger involved rotations. Especially in raids where a mistake could mean a wipe... same as now.
It's not a matter of "have a rotation" any more than a game can be considered great for simply "having decisions". Checkers has decisions, but it's the nuances of Chess' decision that makes it much harder to master.
But sure if you can link to a guide showing those class' rotations to be on par with the complexity that makes Warlock rotation deep, then by all means link to that proof.
Adaptive AI is unlikely to ever happen in MMORPGs because it works against the intended design that those mobs are puzzles to be solved. They're not supposed to be puzzles which are impossible to unravel because they're always changing.
Also I got a laugh out of the fact that I genuinely missed this post the first time, then you asked me to come back and respond to it, and then it ends with "I am not going to continue this pointless back and forth."
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Combat is what you spend 80% or more of your time doing. It's not an "isolated bubble". It's the majority of the game! If the thing you do most in a game is shallow, the game is shallow.
Why would you still disagree that modern games offer deeper combat? Does this mean you have a rotation on par with the warlock rotation from early MMORPGs? Or does it only mean that you've ignored it each time I've pointed out that 80% of those other factors you're listing still exist in modern games?
Of course I'm repeating myself. If we discussed the sky, would you tire of my calling it blue? The sky is blue, and the objectively more complex rotations represent objectively more complex decisions. The non-rotation decisions are mostly all still present in modern games. The slight net-negative due to a handful of missing aspects doesn't outweigh the strong net-positive of the deeper rotations.
What do you mean other people can't affect me? If the tanks, DPS, or healers aren't doing their job, that definitely affects me.
Monsters failing to assist is something that definitely happens less in modern MMORPGs, but which goes back to my repeatedly pointing out that early MMORPGs were largely about managing how many mobs you fought, and much less about how you fought them. Social aggro was a major factor in that, but overall it was a doomed direction because of the lack of variation. (You can create a lot of interesting mob abilities to vary combat, but you can't create nearly as many ways for mobs to shout for help.)
Classes can solo easily. Turns out unskilled players pay for entertainment, and aren't interested in a game that says "you're not skilled enough, go away." Turns out games that did do that made less money. If you want the tough challenges, play the tough challenges (instead of complaining that unskilled players can enjoy their easy challenges.) Do you want those challenges earlier in leveling? So do I: MMORPGs should absolutely embrace CoH-style difficulty sliders.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
It's not a matter of "have a rotation" any more than a game can be considered great for simply "having decisions". Checkers has decisions, but it's the nuances of Chess' decision that makes it much harder to master.
But sure if you can link to a guide showing those class' rotations to be on par with the complexity that makes Warlock rotation deep, then by all means link to that proof.
Adaptive AI is unlikely to ever happen in MMORPGs because it works against the intended design that those mobs are puzzles to be solved. They're not supposed to be puzzles which are impossible to unravel because they're always changing.
Also I got a laugh out of the fact that I genuinely missed this post the first time, then you asked me to come back and respond to it, and then it ends with "I am not going to continue this pointless back and forth."
Well when, much like Nari, you consistently diss old school games and always seem to have some halfass answer to circumvent a point someone else brings up that shows what you previously said to not be the case...hey, gonna point it out. Especially with the arrogance in your tone.I believe your first and last comments basically sum it up for me. If combat is shallow 80% of the game then it is not enjoyable. Since every class can solo easily and in general everyone can solo easily it is shallow for me. There might be some redeeming quality to it if there was a least something interesting during the majority of the game which is the leveling process. I always enjoyed the leveling process more then the endgame. I prefer solo and small group combat over large scale raiding. I prefer to have a challenging world simulation with lots of different things going on as opposed to a world that is just kill things, level, and kill some more things. During the course of the leveling process your character generally changes a lot and the more time you spend in an area the more rewarding it is when you get to a new area. Likewise the more time you spend with certain equipment the more rewarding it is when you get a new piece. The more random elements thrown in that you have to be aware of them more interesting it becomes. In general elements I mentioned like people pulling trains at you, mobs wandering across your path, respawns, etc.
I felt that in older games when I soloed (not every class could solo) that not only could I break the rules of what was intended in game in terms of being able to solo, but also that because classes were not intended to be able to solo making a mistake against a mob meant you were likely to die. Generally they artificially were made more difficult stat wise and the abilities the monsters had lasted a long time if they landed on you. Yes a lot of it was agro management and simple keeping sharp, but that is a skill unto itself. I find in current games I really don't have to keep sharp during the leveling process. It doesn't matter if I die so and the mobs are already intentionally made soloable easily. Between the two, no death penalty, items dropping like candy, being basically in a bubble where noting bad can happen to me, and overall just how everything is set up for you to have an easy time on a set path through the game makes the game uninteresting to me.
To expand on what I mean by being in a bubble (I thought I had explained this before) you are generally insulated from any adverse things happening. The most that can happen is you can die, but will respawn quickly to try again with no penalty. Most of the content is instanced, the mobs die quickly, and you generally don't ever have to wait for a turn. Other people never have can have an impact on your game. Mobs are made to not follow you and allow you to easily escape if it is even worth it to run away since the death penalty is nothing. With things like automatic loot rolling you never have ninja looters to deal with and never have to discuss how you are going to deal with loot distribution. With auction houses you never have to meet with someone and talk to them about trading. With fast travel you never have to ask someone to teleport you or give you a speed enhancement buff. With quest markers and directions that guide you on exactly what to do and where to go there is no real problem solving taking place in the game. You are simple following a path that has been set out before you where you can fail (I know your argument on this one about being able to do what you want, but taking into account the other factors I just mentioned the world is fairly boring to explore with no real dangers or penalties. In general one game is simulating a harsh survival environment similar to what hunter gathers likely would have experienced a long time ago. The other is simply a simple game about killing and following ! points around where you can't lose because it's setup to be that way through the majority of the game (or the part of the game that I enjoy playing).
I agree with you that the leveling process and games in general have been made easy aside from endgame intentionally to draw in more people and make them feel like they are accomplishing something by hitting max level. I have said as much before.
It's not arrogant to constantly ask others to use logic and evidence in their discussion of these topics. It's the only sane way to have a discussion. Anything less and you just invite whatever random hearsay or flimsy opinions people can come up with (and people can come up with some seriously wrong-minded opinions.)
If I say early MMORPGs weren't hard so much as they were time-consuming, and present compelling evidence showing how modern MMORPGs involve significantly more skill, then that's fairly compelling evidence that maybe we shouldn't be calling early MMORPGs "so hard".
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Well we're making a comparison. Is it bad that for a good chunk of modern MMORPGs things aren't hard enough for the depth to emerge? Yes. But it's still a step up from early MMORPGs where combat is never as deep. Better to play the game where once you get past the tutorial (leveling) things are consistently deep than the one which is consistently not-as-deep.
Er, but you're not isolated from "any adverse things", because the monster is trying to kill you (adverse thing) and your teammates might screw up (adverse thing.) All the adverse things exist within the encounter itself, allowing it to function as a true skill challenge and not some variable thing where one group zergs the place and experiences almost no challenge while another group gets blown away by a train.
Your isolation is mostly from situations where other players are overwhelmingly negative. These are MMOs, and if other players are overwhelmingly negative to your game experience then things won't work. If a player runs by with a train and your mobs call for help, well then that random noob (whom you can't control, unlike your party where you definitely can replace trolls and underperformers) wiped your group.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I think it's better to have a game with random variables like those that real people can provide. It is a more exciting experience.
As I mentioned there were a lot of different factors going on and things to do that contributed to difficulty of combat.
Focusing just on a single controlled encounter of combat is not interesting to me. It is also fairly shallow regardless of how complex they make the button pushing. As I've explained it doesn't really matter if your really don't need to execute those combination to win in general.
In general the isolation form anything negative is my point. Without the negatives there really isn't anything worthwhile to overcome. There is no resistance placed before you but a very controlled environment that devs created for you to win in. This said environment is boring to the people who can see through it and realize they are just going through the motions for no real reason. Most of the content is exactly the same repeated and everything that would have given it any real variety has been taken out (real people interaction), death penalties, wandering mobs, or in general anything that forces you to remain alert to possible unknown variables entering into the equation.
I was thinking how people have said you need quests for a real purpose,but I believe quests often take purpose away. Hunter gathers purpose was simple to hunt and see what was over the next hill. Curiosity of new things was their purpose. I watched a movie where indians said the same thing. They said everyday they would climb the next hill to see what was on the other side. This to me is more interesting then just following a direct path where you are guided along. Just figure out what it is you want to do in the game yourself. I realize again that you can explore in current games, but there is no purpose as there is nothing exciting about exploring controlled environments. The environment needs to be wild and out of your control IMO. This is agian getting back to needing random elements/dangers to be interesting. You also have to consider that older games had set loot. Certain mobs would drop certain things. That also made exploring more worthwhile.