I love the leveling expierance in MMO's , as a matter of fact i enjoy it more than endgame.... 7 or 8 years ago my answer would have been just the opposite, im a casual now.
Get rid of the leveling and the whole level-up content. Let us create a character with the abilities/skills we want right at the character-creation-process and be done with it. This way we could enjoy a game full of endgame-content that doesn't become obsolete within a day or two.
And as we're on it, get rid of the gear-progression aswell. All gear should be crafted with the materials we harvested, gathered, salvaged or looted. Some materials would only be available by running dungeons, some would only be available from PvP-areas, etc. Something for everyone and all content has the same meaning... to feed the economy and keep the world alive. To guarantee constant demand of materials and crafted items, all items should decay over time or by heavily using them. Repairs do work, but only so far before an item is totally broken.
I want to roleplay - i.e. play a role within the game - and not be forced to level through meaningless content.
'Get rid of everything that makes an RPG an RPG, because I haven't figured out that I can role-play in any game I want to.'
Roleplaying really isn't about gear or levels, it is about walking in someone elses shoes, experience wonders and adventure, about interacting with others and about telling a tory, together with others or alone.
Crafting your own gear isn't less or more roleplaying than looting the gear or just use the same gear the entire game. I played long pen and paper RPG campaigns without adding a single piece of gear to my character, stuff like that is optional.
What makes it a RPG is that you create a character and interact with the game as he or she would.
Exactly. Leveling up isn't an integral part of a RPG and there's may Pen&Paper RPGs which don't have any or very little progression.
Leveling up and gear-progression is nice and dandy for singleplayer RPGs, but I don't see the necessity in an MMORPG, especially not in a sandbox MMORPG, where the players themselves create most of the content. That's what an MMORPG should be all bout actually, doing what you like and write your own stories, without there being a given path or a carrot infront of you dangling from a stick for you to follow like a donkey.
RPGs are about creativity and the players imagination, and if we would get rid of the boundaries of a progression-system and rather have a vast open world for us to thrive in the way we want right from the beginning, then we could actually have fun in a plethora of ways instead of being forced to follow a certain path.
Additionally, without the leveling, the developers wouldn't need to come up with tons of one-time content and could rather spend their time on dynamic content, which wouldn't become as boring as fast as runnig the same dungeon over and over again just to get that one epic item we think we must have. I've played all these themeparks, and once you hit max-level and got all your epics then there's nothing left to do anymore. EvE Online is actually the only MMORPG I really like (playing since 2005 with some breaks inbetween), as you can allways create your own content which actually has an impact in the game. And it's not all about the fighting either, which is very important to make an MMORPG feel alive.
We'll to be fair to R.I.F.T.S (not to be confused with that P2W mmo that stole the name illegally and gamed the legal system to keep it) the level's did make a pretty big difference when it came to most of the magic/psionic O.C.C's or R.C.C's. Your dead on though about pretty much all of the tech related classes. Level's hardly made a difference for them.
Sorry don't have much else to add. It's just been a while since i have had any outlet for my inner R.I.F.T.S nerd. Otherwise i completely agree. I think we both have a huge respect for Guild Wars 1 for the way it handled level's and horizontal progression. I also liked how games like TSW handled them, even if the game suffered from other problems that hampered the design of the skills themselves. Or even to step outside of mmo's, look at games like Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines which adhered very closely to the RPG itself.
Uh, those Federation of magic debees... But my point was that it had levels and while they did make a difference the games powergap together with setting meant that levels werent such big deal as in D&D. I catually really would have liked a R.I.F.T.S MMO, there was talk about it a couple of years ago and the setting and mechanics would with a bit of tweaking make an awesome MMO.
It sadly been a pretty long time since we played it, our GM got addicted to Wow in 2004 and he was the best GM I ever had sp we never really been able to replace him. I have been running a Pallidium campaigns a few years back but R.I.F.T.S was more fun.
TSWs progression had a very interesting idea but I feel they didn't make it as fun as it could have been (good game otherwise).
Bloodlines had a pretty good system but there were balancing issues, celerity was just too OP.
Exactly. Leveling up isn't an integral part of a RPG and there's may Pen&Paper RPGs which don't have any or very little progression.
Leveling up and gear-progression is nice and dandy for singleplayer RPGs, but I don't see the necessity in an MMORPG, especially not in a sandbox MMORPG, where the players themselves create most of the content. That's what an MMORPG should be all bout actually, doing what you like and write your own stories, without there being a given path or a carrot infront of you dangling from a stick for you to follow like a donkey.
RPGs are about creativity and the players imagination, and if we would get rid of the boundaries of a progression-system and rather have a vast open world for us to thrive in the way we want right from the beginning, then we could actually have fun in a plethora of ways instead of being forced to follow a certain path.
Additionally, without the leveling, the developers wouldn't need to come up with tons of one-time content and could rather spend their time on dynamic content, which wouldn't become as boring as fast as runnig the same dungeon over and over again just to get that one epic item we think we must have. I've played all these themeparks, and once you hit max-level and got all your epics then there's nothing left to do anymore. EvE Online is actually the only MMORPG I really like (playing since 2005 with some breaks inbetween), as you can allways create your own content which actually has an impact in the game. And it's not all about the fighting either, which is very important to make an MMORPG feel alive.
Akalabeth (1979)? An RPG with progression. Ultima (1981)? An RPG with progression. Wizardry (1981)? An RPG with progression. Bards Tale? An RPG with progression. Final Fantasy? An RPG with progression. Eye of the Beholder? An RPG with progression. Might & Magic? An RPG with progression. Ys? An RPG with progression. Dragon Warrior? An RPG with progression. Baldur's Gate? An RPG with progression.
We could keep going. Basically the entirety of the 36+ year history of videogame RPGs has always been about progression. It's a core pillar of RPGs. Level and gear are only two specific types of progression of course, but notably they're part of every game on that list (and would be part of at least 90% of the rest of all RPGs ever made too.)
If you don't want progression, you're in the wrong genre.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I like personal progression, I don't like tying a number to it. I feel like traditional leveling is outdated, and it's time to look at lateral progression instead.
I would like to see more lateral progression that allowed for more customization earlier on. Lots of games offer some type of lateral progression once you get to max level but it would be nice to have the choice to work on these same skills earlier on. I liked how in EQ you could toggle exp earned towards gaining levels or lateral skill-ups.
Del Cabon A US Army ('Just Cause') Vet and MMORPG Native formerly of Trinsic, Norath and Dereth. Currently playing LOTRO.
UO did it right. 700 skill points with tons of skills to choose from. You can be a 7 time grand master by maxing whatever 7 skills you choose, or you can have some at 30, some at 70, some at 100 etc.
I absolutely hate leveling. It is pointless. In a skill point based game, you can still be somewhat useful to advanced players by helping them gather things, healing them, and assisting in ranged damage. In a leveling game that shit just isn't happening.
Exactly. Leveling up isn't an integral part of a RPG and there's may Pen&Paper RPGs which don't have any or very little progression.
Leveling up and gear-progression is nice and dandy for singleplayer RPGs, but I don't see the necessity in an MMORPG, especially not in a sandbox MMORPG, where the players themselves create most of the content. That's what an MMORPG should be all bout actually, doing what you like and write your own stories, without there being a given path or a carrot infront of you dangling from a stick for you to follow like a donkey.
RPGs are about creativity and the players imagination, and if we would get rid of the boundaries of a progression-system and rather have a vast open world for us to thrive in the way we want right from the beginning, then we could actually have fun in a plethora of ways instead of being forced to follow a certain path.
Additionally, without the leveling, the developers wouldn't need to come up with tons of one-time content and could rather spend their time on dynamic content, which wouldn't become as boring as fast as runnig the same dungeon over and over again just to get that one epic item we think we must have. I've played all these themeparks, and once you hit max-level and got all your epics then there's nothing left to do anymore. EvE Online is actually the only MMORPG I really like (playing since 2005 with some breaks inbetween), as you can allways create your own content which actually has an impact in the game. And it's not all about the fighting either, which is very important to make an MMORPG feel alive.
Akalabeth (1979)? An RPG with progression. Ultima (1981)? An RPG with progression. Wizardry (1981)? An RPG with progression. Bards Tale? An RPG with progression. Final Fantasy? An RPG with progression. Eye of the Beholder? An RPG with progression. Might & Magic? An RPG with progression. Ys? An RPG with progression. Dragon Warrior? An RPG with progression. Baldur's Gate? An RPG with progression.
We could keep going. Basically the entirety of the 36+ year history of videogame RPGs has always been about progression. It's a core pillar of RPGs. Level and gear are only two specific types of progression of course, but notably they're part of every game on that list (and would be part of at least 90% of the rest of all RPGs ever made too.)
If you don't want progression, you're in the wrong genre.
RPGs are outthere much longer than only in digital form you know. And if you would've read my post more carefully you would've noticed that I was referring to Pen&Paper RPGs especially and not the videogames.
The reason why most of the videogame RPGs have progression is because they're geared towards the solo-player. MMORPGs however don't have to be geared towards single-players and they shouldn't be actually, as this would make the whole MMO part obsolete.
Also. There's tons of RPGs and MMORPGs with character- and gear-progression outthere, but for those of us who want something else in an RPG/MMORPG there's absolutely nothing. So if you're fine with leveling up your character and grinding dungeons for epics, more power to you and you can happily choose from a plethora of allready available games. However, please refrain from forcing this on every new RPG/MMORPG that's going to be developed.
Akalabeth (1979)? An RPG with progression. Ultima (1981)? An RPG with progression. Wizardry (1981)? An RPG with progression. Bards Tale? An RPG with progression. Final Fantasy? An RPG with progression. Eye of the Beholder? An RPG with progression. Might & Magic? An RPG with progression. Ys? An RPG with progression. Dragon Warrior? An RPG with progression. Baldur's Gate? An RPG with progression.
We could keep going. Basically the entirety of the 36+ year history of videogame RPGs has always been about progression. It's a core pillar of RPGs. Level and gear are only two specific types of progression of course, but notably they're part of every game on that list (and would be part of at least 90% of the rest of all RPGs ever made too.)
If you don't want progression, you're in the wrong genre.
True, progression of some kind have existed in most RPGs except the puzzle solving type (Myst, Discworld and such games).
But all the games you mentioned had progression as a help to reach the goal, it wasn't the goal in itself. Part of the problem with MMO progression might be that in MMOs progression is the goal, not a help to achive it.
Guildwars actually had a different goal and I think it made it a better game. Maybe more MMORPG/CORPGs should try something similar.
We'll to be fair to R.I.F.T.S (not to be confused with that P2W mmo that stole the name illegally and gamed the legal system to keep it) the level's did make a pretty big difference when it came to most of the magic/psionic O.C.C's or R.C.C's. Your dead on though about pretty much all of the tech related classes. Level's hardly made a difference for them.
Sorry don't have much else to add. It's just been a while since i have had any outlet for my inner R.I.F.T.S nerd. Otherwise i completely agree. I think we both have a huge respect for Guild Wars 1 for the way it handled level's and horizontal progression. I also liked how games like TSW handled them, even if the game suffered from other problems that hampered the design of the skills themselves. Or even to step outside of mmo's, look at games like Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines which adhered very closely to the RPG itself.
Uh, those Federation of magic debees... But my point was that it had levels and while they did make a difference the games powergap together with setting meant that levels werent such big deal as in D&D. I catually really would have liked a R.I.F.T.S MMO, there was talk about it a couple of years ago and the setting and mechanics would with a bit of tweaking make an awesome MMO.
It sadly been a pretty long time since we played it, our GM got addicted to Wow in 2004 and he was the best GM I ever had sp we never really been able to replace him. I have been running a Pallidium campaigns a few years back but R.I.F.T.S was more fun.
TSWs progression had a very interesting idea but I feel they didn't make it as fun as it could have been (good game otherwise).
Bloodlines had a pretty good system but there were balancing issues, celerity was just too OP.
Back in 1976 TSR published Metamorphosis Alpha which didn't have the typical eq progression. That killed the game. It is great you "played a long game" where nothing was progression but that would be called the exception to the rules.
Also, people can't call for new progression systems and than have people bring up other pen and paper games system. Which is that people want, new systems or old ones?
You people think whole new systems are easy to create, how about coming up with a design document for 5 different new and original systems. Let us review them to be certain they are not from any previous game in any form. Then we can review to see if they are interesting enough to be used in a game.
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RPGs are outthere much longer than only in digital form you know. And if you would've read my post more carefully you would've noticed that I was referring to Pen&Paper RPGs especially and not the videogames.
The reason why most of the videogame RPGs have progression is because they're geared towards the solo-player. MMORPGs however don't have to be geared towards single-players and they shouldn't be actually, as this would make the whole MMO part obsolete.
Also. There's tons of RPGs and MMORPGs with character- and gear-progression outthere, but for those of us who want something else in an RPG/MMORPG there's absolutely nothing. So if you're fine with leveling up your character and grinding dungeons for epics, more power to you and you can happily choose from a plethora of allready available games. However, please refrain from forcing this on every new RPG/MMORPG that's going to be developed.
1. We're talking about videogame RPGs, so bringing tabletop RPGs into it makes no sense. They're different genres. 2. Even if that weren't true, Chainmail and D&D both had levels and gear!
The fact is progression is a defining trait of videogame RPGs and a near-universal trait in tabletop RPGs.
So in the context of videogame RPGs, asking to remove all progression without mentioning ways of adding some other type of progression (skill-based, etc) is basically like asking to have a first-person shooter without shooting. It's just not going to happen.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
True, progression of some kind have existed in most RPGs except the puzzle solving type (Myst, Discworld and such games).
But all the games you mentioned had progression as a help to reach the goal, it wasn't the goal in itself. Part of the problem with MMO progression might be that in MMOs progression is the goal, not a help to achive it.
Guildwars actually had a different goal and I think it made it a better game. Maybe more MMORPG/CORPGs should try something similar.
Eh Myst isn't an RPG though. The wiki perhaps describes it best as a graphic adventure puzzle game.
Videogame RPGs haven't ever been about simply playing a role (because otherwise nearly every game would be considered an RPG with the possible exception of Sim City-like games (and even then you're playing the role of a mayor, so it's ambiguous.)) They've always been about progression, story, and a stats-driven core activity (almost always this activity is combat.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Back in 1976 TSR published Metamorphosis Alpha which didn't have the typical eq progression. That killed the game. It is great you "played a long game" where nothing was progression but that would be called the exception to the rules.
Also, people can't call for new progression systems and than have people bring up other pen and paper games system. Which is that people want, new systems or old ones?
You people think whole new systems are easy to create, how about coming up with a design document for 5 different new and original systems. Let us review them to be certain they are not from any previous game in any form. Then we can review to see if they are interesting enough to be used in a game.
Actually, what is old to other genres might be new to the MMO genre. Mixing ideas from other genres with custom systems or using old systems in a new way creates a new experience as you play.
I think what people want is something that doesn't already feel like you played it for years after 10 minutes.
So fine, lets try out a few different ideas (but I don't see why they can't have been used in other games in other forms):
1. Progress through achivement: Each achivement in the game gives you a bonus, you don't get any XP but each achivement you complete could give you a skill, hitpoints, stats or something else.
The advantage with this system is that you can't grind you through the same stuff over and over, you need to try out new things to actually get better. EQ used something similar as an alternative progression but to my knowledge have it not been used as a main system before even if EQ proved that it works.
2. Skill based progression. Versions of this have been used in a few games like UO. Each time you gain a critical success with a skill that skill gets and experience point. A sliding cost raises the skill and the higher skill the more effective it's get.
This system have advantages and disadvantages, you don't get more hitpoints as you play so one advantage is that it is far easier to play together with players who played more or less than you. The disadvantage is of course that you don't become a demi god after playing a lot as in many MMOs and not all players like that.
And yes, this isn't completely new but it works very well in certain types of games. Say you want to make a historical pirate or musketeer MMO, then something like this will keep the game far more realistic than a levelsystem would.
3. Progression through classes. You start out with a really simple class, maybe you are a peasant or a thug. As you gain XP and max out that class you can choose to move into something slightly cooler, your thug might become a cat burglar or outlaw. At you fifth or so class you max out as the toughest class in the game.
That is a tier progress with 5 tiers, so it do split the players in 5 groups, you wont be useful in a tier 5 group as tier 1 but it is far better than 80 or so levels, it makes it easier to find groups if you aren't maxed out and you get more choices and specializations than you get when you keep your start class.
4. Karma. This is the system from Shadowrun. Each time you complete something larger (questchains, dungeons, raids, similar things) you gain karma. For that karma you buy new skills or raise attributes. You don't really need classes for this but you can use them if you want to. Gear is locked to stats, not levels.
The advantage is that you get a very high level of customization. You could put all karma quick to be good at specific things or you could raise yourself to be generally better in many things. The disadvantage is that unless you lock max karma eventually everyone will be the same.
5. Complete gear progression. You gain new skills and power ups from gear. This require far more gear slots than we seen before including certain amount of skill scroll slots. Say that you have 10 slots for active skills and 5 more for passive.
This system only really works with BOP looting and preferably one character per player. You can make it so certain sets of gear can't be used with certain other sets to make something similar to classes. You could even make it so you could have 1 from any one if you want to add alittle more customization, if you have several warrior skill scrolls you could still use one mage skill.
That is 5 systems, there are a whole bunch of other possibilities as well. The main point is that the game shouldn't feel just like playing Wow or another current MMO.
You know mmorpg as a genera got flooded with impatient people. The goal with leveling is always to get to max level, often without thinking about what exactly there is to do when max level. I remember the thing to do with those first gen games was to stand around with your high level gear getting oogled by the noobs and well...worshipped...since it was hard to get that far and it took a ton of time.
People forget the motivation that makes a lot of games great is often a reward system based on (well skinner box mechanics) leveling and gear rewards. The trend became to cut out the gear making it boring and simple, and then to fast track people to the end, hoping they would want to run a few instances over and over for the interesting gear.
Long progression makes finding a good piece of gear early on more worthwhile...as youll actually get to use it. Some of the later generation games ive gotten a rare piece of gear only to see it outclassed by a boring generic piece within an hour.
I really think that mmorpgs need to go back to the same roots that made the genera so popular. Complex progression and character building. Farming of loot by killing stuff (which is only now found in ARPG games, which coincidentally is a genera doing quite well still) and max level being something that isn't...easy to get to. Plus they seemed to stream line classes. What happened to all the weird and strange classes of the older generation games? When did it become a thing to add tank/heals/magic/archer as the only option? How boring is that?
I think somewhere along the line mmorpgs as a whole streamlined themselves into obsolesce. Of course everyone begged to make it easier, faster, less complex....they wanted to be max level now with fat gear and own people in pvp....that was suppose to be the carrot at the end of a long stick that kept people trying at it for years...not a week or two...and we wonder why mmorpgs have a big launch month then people start to trickle out after only one month....its because they hit endgame, everyone else did, and they had just about all the best loot....and who wants to reroll to play generic archer after playing as a generic mage?
Granted a few games tried to add some complexity, however it was usually one aspect from the sacred recipe...like Rift having a decent class system (despite far too many redundant skills that made it feel like you were taking one skill and one passive from another class tree and calling it something new)
Not sure when it became taboo to have a complex game that had you grinding (on grinding use to be something totally different, which was standing in a field slaughtering mobs for fractional xp for days before progressing up the field a bit to repeat) with a solid system of stuff to farm while grinding, and speed questing from hub to hub with 50 generic quests you don't care about per hub in a mad three week dash to endgame became the in thing....but its the reason that there were the first gen games, WOW, and not a whole lot else remarkable after...
Leveling is still my favorite thing to do, but its how its done that makes or breaks the game for me.....At this point I'm extremely bored with the quest system in most games....I need other ways to level up.
I voted NO not because MMOs don't have levels or won't have levels in the future but because leveling is no longer the main course of an MMO. There was a time when leveling to cap used to take months and when you reached the level cap the game was ended. There might have been some end game content but that was just to keep you busy until the next level cap increase. That type of MMO design changed with WoW.
WoW is what really changed the MMO genre and introduced the idea that the game STARTS are level cap. End Game content became the main course and leveling was reduced to just being a chore to get over with as fast as possible.
I clearly remember a time when "rush to level cap" was not a thing. There was early game, mid game content along the way. There were often serious hurdles placed in front of the player to reach the cap. MMOs these days are all about instant gratification. Got to get to level cap on the first day. Got to get into the real game at "end game" as fast as possible or you are somehow missing out.
Some may argue EQ1 Planes of Power ruined leveling but that was just an expansion to a game that was already 4 years old. One still had to spend months gaining levels and AA before being allowed to set foot in the Planes of Power.
One cannot make an "old school" MMO where leveling took 6 months such as in Lineage II. That type of game design is not viable thus leveling as the main course is not viable. People want to be at level cap on the first day or the game is declared a grind fest. Ironically these same people complain when they get bored at level cap and quit in a week. This what is wrong with MMOs. We have abandoned our leveling roots.
I think levelling will remain as it continues to be a fairly decent-ish learning curve for the game (NOT necessarily for the class!) for new players. I usually find levelling to be pretty fun for the most part (mainly thinking WoW here). I do still find it bizarre though that level and stats are (in most cases) what matters over actual player input and skill; compare this to most MUDs I play (Avalon/Aetolia) where your only chance of success is actually being good at the game and the writing's on the wall. This is why I'd mostly support levels not really being a thing and instead preferring skill levels / actual personal ability to be the defining benchmark of success, not whether you have a better sword or 50000 more health. Arbitrary numbers and / or losing by default are not fun.
What makes it a RPG is that you create a character and interact with the game as he or she would.
Exactly. Leveling up isn't an integral part of a RPG and there's may Pen&Paper RPGs which don't have any or very little progression.
Leveling up and gear-progression is nice and dandy for singleplayer RPGs, but I don't see the necessity in an MMORPG, especially not in a sandbox MMORPG, where the players themselves create most of the content. That's what an MMORPG should be all bout actually, doing what you like and write your own stories, without there being a given path or a carrot infront of you dangling from a stick for you to follow like a donkey.
RPGs are about creativity and the players imagination, and if we would get rid of the boundaries of a progression-system and rather have a vast open world for us to thrive in the way we want right from the beginning, then we could actually have fun in a plethora of ways instead of being forced to follow a certain path.
Additionally, without the leveling, the developers wouldn't need to come up with tons of one-time content and could rather spend their time on dynamic content, which wouldn't become as boring as fast as runnig the same dungeon over and over again just to get that one epic item we think we must have. I've played all these themeparks, and once you hit max-level and got all your epics then there's nothing left to do anymore. EvE Online is actually the only MMORPG I really like (playing since 2005 with some breaks inbetween), as you can allways create your own content which actually has an impact in the game. And it's not all about the fighting either, which is very important to make an MMORPG feel alive.
IMO It's a matter of finding ways to give players something to do together as well as things to do on their own, how any "world" works... To me that creates depth, the more you include that appeals to different tastes the more depth the game has, in turn the more it feels like a world.
Progression can play a big part in creating that depth, a game like SWG as an example had plenty of different types of progression, yet didn't bind players down to a specific pattern of do this or do that... Like say something like EQ or DAOC did. It wasn't a system that wanted to fight you or get in your way. It offered different avenues to follow in a way that said, do what you want, how you want. Be it solo, in groups, in guilds or server wide.
There were pitfalls to that game of course, but to me it's proof enough that in terms of community, the more diverse your audience, the more worldly and co-existing it feels. It was for the most part a very positive environment of inclusion, which to me is the pinnacle of what MMORPG game-play is all about.
IN the end I think asking whether progression or leveling is needed is the wrong question, how should we level, how should we progress, etc.. are better questions.
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Levelling is still viable, but its use as a content gate isn't as universal as what it used to be. Twitch-based combat systems, which are getting more popular, post a real challenge to level progression, because it bases results on actual, real-time performance instead of having some abstract proxy (like levels) determining the result.
Levelling is just the most typical method of 'gating' content...but there may be other methods (gear-based or time based) that might be explored.
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I voted NO not because MMOs don't have levels or won't have levels in the future but because leveling is no longer the main course of an MMO. There was a time when leveling to cap used to take months and when you reached the level cap the game was ended. There might have been some end game content but that was just to keep you busy until the next level cap increase. That type of MMO design changed with WoW.
WoW is what really changed the MMO genre and introduced the idea that the game STARTS are level cap. End Game content became the main course and leveling was reduced to just being a chore to get over with as fast as possible.
I clearly remember a time when "rush to level cap" was not a thing. There was early game, mid game content along the way. There were often serious hurdles placed in front of the player to reach the cap. MMOs these days are all about instant gratification. Got to get to level cap on the first day. Got to get into the real game at "end game" as fast as possible or you are somehow missing out.
Some may argue EQ1 Planes of Power ruined leveling but that was just an expansion to a game that was already 4 years old. One still had to spend months gaining levels and AA before being allowed to set foot in the Planes of Power.
One cannot make an "old school" MMO where leveling took 6 months such as in Lineage II. That type of game design is not viable thus leveling as the main course is not viable. People want to be at level cap on the first day or the game is declared a grind fest. Ironically these same people complain when they get bored at level cap and quit in a week. This what is wrong with MMOs. We have abandoned our leveling roots.
You make it sounds like WoW was designed to be like that but initially WoW was a lot about leveling as well. That changed pretty soon though, players complained the game was too hard and time consuming so they nerfed things and started to speed up leveling.
At launch Wow more or less just had MC as a raid, the focus on raiding started when leveling became faster and faster.
I think a lot of the problem with leveling is that you see a 1-80 scale (or whatever levelcap you have) and most players just see numbers and going for the top. With mechanics that are less clearly showing just how powerful you are people tend to take things slower.
MMOs need a slower progression, todays speed just ain't viable in a long term game. That doesn't neccesarily mean we should turn the clock back to 1999 but something needs to be done, when players spend less time in a MMO than a single player game there is little need to spend the huge sume a MMO cost to make.
I enjoy leveling, that's why I usually have so many alts in every game I play. The problem with most MMOs made in the last 10 years is that developers have thought of leveling as a way to get to endgame, instead of as the game itself. Endgame has it's place, but level has an equal, if not more, of a place in MMOs. I've always said that MMOs are all about the journey, not the destination. Think of it as The Lord of the Rings movies. If Frodo set out on his journey to return the ring to Mordor and Mordor was the next town over, and the journey took about an hour on foot; that would be a boring and short movie. Fortunately, it was a long and arduous journey full of suspense, sadness, and happiness.
First off progression is a must, it's in our DNA, it's how us and our civilization is where it's at today, although some might classify the way things are today as a degression
I would love to see a progression system where you would gain abilities by exploration, by finding hermits out in the wilderness, by searching libraries for ancient lore, by selling you soul to a deity and many more things imagination can come up with.
Something that's randomized for every player, something where no one besides the developers even know how many different spells and abilities there even is.
First off progression is a must, it's in our DNA, it's how us and our civilization is where it's at today, although some might classify the way things are today as a degression
I would love to see a progression system where you would gain abilities by exploration, by finding hermits out in the wilderness, by searching libraries for ancient lore, by selling you soul to a deity and many more things imagination can come up with.
Something that's randomized for every player, something where no one besides the developers even know how many different spells and abilities there even is.
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Leveling up and gear-progression is nice and dandy for singleplayer RPGs, but I don't see the necessity in an MMORPG, especially not in a sandbox MMORPG, where the players themselves create most of the content.
That's what an MMORPG should be all bout actually, doing what you like and write your own stories, without there being a given path or a carrot infront of you dangling from a stick for you to follow like a donkey.
RPGs are about creativity and the players imagination, and if we would get rid of the boundaries of a progression-system and rather have a vast open world for us to thrive in the way we want right from the beginning, then we could actually have fun in a plethora of ways instead of being forced to follow a certain path.
Additionally, without the leveling, the developers wouldn't need to come up with tons of one-time content and could rather spend their time on dynamic content, which wouldn't become as boring as fast as runnig the same dungeon over and over again just to get that one epic item we think we must have.
I've played all these themeparks, and once you hit max-level and got all your epics then there's nothing left to do anymore.
EvE Online is actually the only MMORPG I really like (playing since 2005 with some breaks inbetween), as you can allways create your own content which actually has an impact in the game. And it's not all about the fighting either, which is very important to make an MMORPG feel alive.
It sadly been a pretty long time since we played it, our GM got addicted to Wow in 2004 and he was the best GM I ever had sp we never really been able to replace him. I have been running a Pallidium campaigns a few years back but R.I.F.T.S was more fun.
TSWs progression had a very interesting idea but I feel they didn't make it as fun as it could have been (good game otherwise).
Bloodlines had a pretty good system but there were balancing issues, celerity was just too OP.
Ultima (1981)? An RPG with progression.
Wizardry (1981)? An RPG with progression.
Bards Tale? An RPG with progression.
Final Fantasy? An RPG with progression.
Eye of the Beholder? An RPG with progression.
Might & Magic? An RPG with progression.
Ys? An RPG with progression.
Dragon Warrior? An RPG with progression.
Baldur's Gate? An RPG with progression.
We could keep going. Basically the entirety of the 36+ year history of videogame RPGs has always been about progression. It's a core pillar of RPGs. Level and gear are only two specific types of progression of course, but notably they're part of every game on that list (and would be part of at least 90% of the rest of all RPGs ever made too.)
If you don't want progression, you're in the wrong genre.
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Del Cabon
A US Army ('Just Cause') Vet and MMORPG Native formerly of Trinsic, Norath and Dereth. Currently playing LOTRO.
I absolutely hate leveling. It is pointless. In a skill point based game, you can still be somewhat useful to advanced players by helping them gather things, healing them, and assisting in ranged damage. In a leveling game that shit just isn't happening.
RPGs are outthere much longer than only in digital form you know. And if you would've read my post more carefully you would've noticed that I was referring to Pen&Paper RPGs especially and not the videogames.
The reason why most of the videogame RPGs have progression is because they're geared towards the solo-player. MMORPGs however don't have to be geared towards single-players and they shouldn't be actually, as this would make the whole MMO part obsolete.
Also. There's tons of RPGs and MMORPGs with character- and gear-progression outthere, but for those of us who want something else in an RPG/MMORPG there's absolutely nothing. So if you're fine with leveling up your character and grinding dungeons for epics, more power to you and you can happily choose from a plethora of allready available games. However, please refrain from forcing this on every new RPG/MMORPG that's going to be developed.
But all the games you mentioned had progression as a help to reach the goal, it wasn't the goal in itself. Part of the problem with MMO progression might be that in MMOs progression is the goal, not a help to achive it.
Guildwars actually had a different goal and I think it made it a better game. Maybe more MMORPG/CORPGs should try something similar.
Also, people can't call for new progression systems and than have people bring up other pen and paper games system. Which is that people want, new systems or old ones?
You people think whole new systems are easy to create, how about coming up with a design document for 5 different new and original systems. Let us review them to be certain they are not from any previous game in any form. Then we can review to see if they are interesting enough to be used in a game.
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2. Even if that weren't true, Chainmail and D&D both had levels and gear!
The fact is progression is a defining trait of videogame RPGs and a near-universal trait in tabletop RPGs.
So in the context of videogame RPGs, asking to remove all progression without mentioning ways of adding some other type of progression (skill-based, etc) is basically like asking to have a first-person shooter without shooting. It's just not going to happen.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Eh Myst isn't an RPG though. The wiki perhaps describes it best as a graphic adventure puzzle game.
Videogame RPGs haven't ever been about simply playing a role (because otherwise nearly every game would be considered an RPG with the possible exception of Sim City-like games (and even then you're playing the role of a mayor, so it's ambiguous.)) They've always been about progression, story, and a stats-driven core activity (almost always this activity is combat.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I think what people want is something that doesn't already feel like you played it for years after 10 minutes.
So fine, lets try out a few different ideas (but I don't see why they can't have been used in other games in other forms):
1. Progress through achivement: Each achivement in the game gives you a bonus, you don't get any XP but each achivement you complete could give you a skill, hitpoints, stats or something else.
The advantage with this system is that you can't grind you through the same stuff over and over, you need to try out new things to actually get better. EQ used something similar as an alternative progression but to my knowledge have it not been used as a main system before even if EQ proved that it works.
2. Skill based progression. Versions of this have been used in a few games like UO. Each time you gain a critical success with a skill that skill gets and experience point. A sliding cost raises the skill and the higher skill the more effective it's get.
This system have advantages and disadvantages, you don't get more hitpoints as you play so one advantage is that it is far easier to play together with players who played more or less than you. The disadvantage is of course that you don't become a demi god after playing a lot as in many MMOs and not all players like that.
And yes, this isn't completely new but it works very well in certain types of games. Say you want to make a historical pirate or musketeer MMO, then something like this will keep the game far more realistic than a levelsystem would.
3. Progression through classes. You start out with a really simple class, maybe you are a peasant or a thug. As you gain XP and max out that class you can choose to move into something slightly cooler, your thug might become a cat burglar or outlaw. At you fifth or so class you max out as the toughest class in the game.
That is a tier progress with 5 tiers, so it do split the players in 5 groups, you wont be useful in a tier 5 group as tier 1 but it is far better than 80 or so levels, it makes it easier to find groups if you aren't maxed out and you get more choices and specializations than you get when you keep your start class.
4. Karma. This is the system from Shadowrun. Each time you complete something larger (questchains, dungeons, raids, similar things) you gain karma. For that karma you buy new skills or raise attributes. You don't really need classes for this but you can use them if you want to. Gear is locked to stats, not levels.
The advantage is that you get a very high level of customization. You could put all karma quick to be good at specific things or you could raise yourself to be generally better in many things. The disadvantage is that unless you lock max karma eventually everyone will be the same.
5. Complete gear progression. You gain new skills and power ups from gear. This require far more gear slots than we seen before including certain amount of skill scroll slots. Say that you have 10 slots for active skills and 5 more for passive.
This system only really works with BOP looting and preferably one character per player. You can make it so certain sets of gear can't be used with certain other sets to make something similar to classes. You could even make it so you could have 1 from any one if you want to add alittle more customization, if you have several warrior skill scrolls you could still use one mage skill.
That is 5 systems, there are a whole bunch of other possibilities as well. The main point is that the game shouldn't feel just like playing Wow or another current MMO.
That doesn't mean I like it, though.
You know mmorpg as a genera got flooded with impatient people. The goal with leveling is always to get to max level, often without thinking about what exactly there is to do when max level. I remember the thing to do with those first gen games was to stand around with your high level gear getting oogled by the noobs and well...worshipped...since it was hard to get that far and it took a ton of time.
People forget the motivation that makes a lot of games great is often a reward system based on (well skinner box mechanics) leveling and gear rewards. The trend became to cut out the gear making it boring and simple, and then to fast track people to the end, hoping they would want to run a few instances over and over for the interesting gear.
Long progression makes finding a good piece of gear early on more worthwhile...as youll actually get to use it. Some of the later generation games ive gotten a rare piece of gear only to see it outclassed by a boring generic piece within an hour.
I really think that mmorpgs need to go back to the same roots that made the genera so popular. Complex progression and character building. Farming of loot by killing stuff (which is only now found in ARPG games, which coincidentally is a genera doing quite well still) and max level being something that isn't...easy to get to. Plus they seemed to stream line classes. What happened to all the weird and strange classes of the older generation games? When did it become a thing to add tank/heals/magic/archer as the only option? How boring is that?
I think somewhere along the line mmorpgs as a whole streamlined themselves into obsolesce. Of course everyone begged to make it easier, faster, less complex....they wanted to be max level now with fat gear and own people in pvp....that was suppose to be the carrot at the end of a long stick that kept people trying at it for years...not a week or two...and we wonder why mmorpgs have a big launch month then people start to trickle out after only one month....its because they hit endgame, everyone else did, and they had just about all the best loot....and who wants to reroll to play generic archer after playing as a generic mage?
Granted a few games tried to add some complexity, however it was usually one aspect from the sacred recipe...like Rift having a decent class system (despite far too many redundant skills that made it feel like you were taking one skill and one passive from another class tree and calling it something new)
Not sure when it became taboo to have a complex game that had you grinding (on grinding use to be something totally different, which was standing in a field slaughtering mobs for fractional xp for days before progressing up the field a bit to repeat) with a solid system of stuff to farm while grinding, and speed questing from hub to hub with 50 generic quests you don't care about per hub in a mad three week dash to endgame became the in thing....but its the reason that there were the first gen games, WOW, and not a whole lot else remarkable after...
WoW is what really changed the MMO genre and introduced the idea that the game STARTS are level cap. End Game content became the main course and leveling was reduced to just being a chore to get over with as fast as possible.
I clearly remember a time when "rush to level cap" was not a thing. There was early game, mid game content along the way. There were often serious hurdles placed in front of the player to reach the cap. MMOs these days are all about instant gratification. Got to get to level cap on the first day. Got to get into the real game at "end game" as fast as possible or you are somehow missing out.
Some may argue EQ1 Planes of Power ruined leveling but that was just an expansion to a game that was already 4 years old. One still had to spend months gaining levels and AA before being allowed to set foot in the Planes of Power.
One cannot make an "old school" MMO where leveling took 6 months such as in Lineage II. That type of game design is not viable thus leveling as the main course is not viable. People want to be at level cap on the first day or the game is declared a grind fest. Ironically these same people complain when they get bored at level cap and quit in a week. This what is wrong with MMOs. We have abandoned our leveling roots.
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Progression can play a big part in creating that depth, a game like SWG as an example had plenty of different types of progression, yet didn't bind players down to a specific pattern of do this or do that... Like say something like EQ or DAOC did. It wasn't a system that wanted to fight you or get in your way. It offered different avenues to follow in a way that said, do what you want, how you want. Be it solo, in groups, in guilds or server wide.
There were pitfalls to that game of course, but to me it's proof enough that in terms of community, the more diverse your audience, the more worldly and co-existing it feels. It was for the most part a very positive environment of inclusion, which to me is the pinnacle of what MMORPG game-play is all about.
IN the end I think asking whether progression or leveling is needed is the wrong question, how should we level, how should we progress, etc.. are better questions.
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Levelling is just the most typical method of 'gating' content...but there may be other methods (gear-based or time based) that might be explored.
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At launch Wow more or less just had MC as a raid, the focus on raiding started when leveling became faster and faster.
I think a lot of the problem with leveling is that you see a 1-80 scale (or whatever levelcap you have) and most players just see numbers and going for the top. With mechanics that are less clearly showing just how powerful you are people tend to take things slower.
MMOs need a slower progression, todays speed just ain't viable in a long term game. That doesn't neccesarily mean we should turn the clock back to 1999 but something needs to be done, when players spend less time in a MMO than a single player game there is little need to spend the huge sume a MMO cost to make.
I would love to see a progression system where you would gain abilities by exploration, by finding hermits out in the wilderness, by searching libraries for ancient lore, by selling you soul to a deity and many more things imagination can come up with.
Something that's randomized for every player, something where no one besides the developers even know how many different spells and abilities there even is.
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