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Of Goons and Ships and Ceiling Wax
Ikonoclastia
Member UncommonPosts: 203
in EVE Online
Once upon a time a small company in Iceland made a sandbox game unlike any other.
The idea was pretty cool. 5000 solar systems, divided into 3 areas. One was supposed to be quite safe, one relatively dangerous and one completely lawless and deadly.
It was an awesome game. For a time - so where did it fall down?
I could write a one hundred page post on the aweful changes that were made but I'll focus on just one aspect for now and you can add some others.
CCP Fail Part One: Not sticking to the plan
When you write software you start with your plan. If the plan is not followed your software will be flawed.
When EvE launched the largest entity envisaged was the corporation. The idea of alliances were not part of the plan. The knee jerk reaction of adding alliances when corporation limits were reached was an ultimately fatal flaw.
The creation of alliances led CCP into a game damaging trap where players would add more stress on servers and CCP would play catch up to enable the servers to cope allowing players to add more stress ad nauseam.
An additional and more dangerous consequence of adding alliance functionality was of course that larger more powerful alliances preyed upon and drove off smaller corporations. Over the years the alliances grew to become a substantial real life power over the developers. When you allow ingame organiztions to grow to 10% or more of your playerbase (CFC at around 40,000 players) a significant change that negatively affects that organization can result in real life consequences to CCP.
CCP can now be held to ransom by a group of players as in the so called Summer of Rage.
Another consequence of powerful groups of players disproportionate to the average is that you end up with one type of player. If your 40,000 man coalition dominates every aspect of the game and drives away players of different play styles then you end up with a single type of player and if that type of player is not the average gamer then you limit yourself (niche).
There's a rumour that EvE was supposed to be a niche game however it was not. It became niche because of the deviation from the original plan.
When EvE released it contained and encouraged industry (mining, building, hauling, missioning), piracy (low sec, null sec), anti-piracy (low sec, null sec), empire building (null sec).
Today all but piracy and industrialism exists or in EvE terms PvP and Carebear. It's this way because by adding alliances one group dominated EvE, the PvPr, in domination it forced the other players of other play styles to choose alternative games, over time new players joined and those of the same PvP mentality stayed while those others quit.
This concentration of PvP mentality has led to a player community which is abusive, cynical and unwrlcoming to new players unless they express a desire to play the kill at any cost meta gaming mentality of the existing playerbase. It's led to the lauding of those who express the most antisocial hateful and abusive behaviour towards players who prefer industry or non-PvP activities.
It's a cancer that is hard to fix when fixing it can lead to a large proportion of the playerbase punishing you for change.
Comments
Making things safer in high sec has to be carefully done, I have seen no real solutions to this. The issue could be handled in many ways, none will please everybody. All changes have to take into consideration that certain large groups have much influence due to money spent by that large group. You must consider the financial inpact of your existing playerbase leaving, before you can assume nonpaying pLayers will suddenly show up and subscribe. That is wat SOE did not do with the nge.
Roses are red
Violets are blue
The reviewer has a mishapen head
Which means his opinion is skewed
...Aldous.MF'n.Huxley
HiSec is a feeding ground. Always has been. Probably always will be. It's designed to be a feeding ground. If your a PvEer and don't want to be eaten don't play EvE. Simple as that.
CCP doesn't tell everyone that of course... because they need to attract... more gazelle, on a continuing basis as some of the gazelle get wise to the real game. Can't have a virtual game re-creation of an ecosystem without both predator and prey.
I speak from experience as a gazelle. I love EvE (some parts of it anyways) but I got tired of being dinner.... even if it was only rarely... it's the getting hunted part that gets on my nerves now that I am older.
EvE is exactly what is it is because CCP wants it this way. Don't believe them when they tell you "unexpected things happened".... or "Players did things We did not expect"... BS that is as CCP plays EvE and has a hand in everything that happens ingame.
Do yourself a favor OP... learn what EvE really is and either embrace it or leave it. Trying to stay and fighting what it is is like hitting your self in the crotch with a sledgehammer.
A simple solution that I have suggested before would be the more players you have around you the slower you can lock targets. It could be explained in role play terms by sensor interferance or something. This small change would make Eve a drastically more fun game for PVP.
As for EvE being a PvP game only no, never was designed that way, played since 2003 as Infinity Ziona. Originally ganks occurring in high were nerfed quickly. As Oveur the original lead dev stated (can be googled) "High sec is supposed to be relatively safe" - it's arguable now that it's not even remotely safe.
The War dec system is the thing I have the biggest issue with, but that's mainly for Hi-sec issue, as it is a piracy tool pure and simple.
Hi sec for me, and this is my opinion is a training ground and large shopping hub for those that need to buy things, the game changes once you get a corp into an alliance and move out to null, you are just as safe because for the most part you should now have a clearer picture of predators and their movements, and if you dont then your alliance is letting you down with its intel set up.
Not only that, but CODE uses free noob ships to flag ships worth billions so they cannot log out and be removed from space.
CCP thinks it's a good game mechanic to allow a ship you get for free when you die to be able to flag a a freighter worth billions in highsec. That is how out of touch they are with game design and risk v reward.
The thing is, you cannot be lazy in EVE and that applies to carebears as well. It is a core nature of the game and will unlikely ever change.
People love missions yet they're stale and boring. People love the possibility of rare loot yet there is none. People love soloing yet it's denied after level 4 in high sec.
I love PvP, I couldn't give a rats ass if there are a million carebears in highsec running missions as long as they're paying subs to put towards more fun PvP, ships, devs and expansions.
The he stupidity of pvprs trying to drive carebears from the game is akin to a couple of boxers beating up spectators because they'd rather watch the fight than fight. They're the ones paying for everything on the night.
EVE did not deviate from it's course at any point. The game is exactly what CCP want it to be. It may be nearing the end of its lifespan, but that's an inevitable event. Nothing stays fresh and popular forever.
Imagine trying to have a 500 vs 500 fight when half or more of the combatants could not be readily identified as friend or foe.
Additionally the whole alliance sov system was implemented after alliances were formalised.
Both alliances and sov were not originally planned and were indeed deviations from the original vision.
Your last paragraph is completely false, the game was as CCP wanted it when it first launched. After alliances were implemented it has undergone substantial and radical change repeatedly. You cannot have a full understanding of the changes over the last decade and seriously claim they've ever had it where they wanted it. There are right now a very large number of up and coming changes still in the pipeline as we post.
CCP has long taken the position to "encourage" all EVE players to learn how to fight. They want to provide the "opportunity" for all to participate in the struggle to survive, with no real safe place.
In real life you could say I live in "high sec" but I am by no means totally safe, I can be robbed, scammed, betrayed by friends and family, hurt or even killed.
Up to me to be smart to earn a living, defend my home and country, and learn how to survive and prosper, and avoid death at all cost.
EVEs basic design is fine as it is, you learn to overcome and grow, as it should be.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
From QEN reports we know that over 60% EVE population can be described as high sec citizens. Given how diverse the game is - wormholes, null, low sec and high sec, it is a significant number.
There is rare loot - there are officer and faction modules/ships. You can always work towards them even if you do not leave high sec.
While EVE is limited in PVE and loot, it is not a flaw, it is a design choice.
There is no better balanced open PVP game around, yet you still rant about it...that's stupidity.
MAGA
So why am I not playing it ? Because of its direction = WAR
EVE is simulation of constant war and hostility. It may appear that there is peaceful gameplay possibility , but that means you are playing on a fringe, being a total struggling outsider in the game.
So in practice EVE is sandbox of hostility and war - and this is the direction it was intentionally guided towards.
So , what than can one expect ?
CCP and many Devs and Players seem to think the same as you do. They seldom asked the rest of us and when they did they didn't want to hear the answer.
Open PvP in EvE doesn't have to mean "Open PvP Everywhere Ingame" like it does. If there were some true safe areas, and I mean real ones, not something a CODE Pilot could figure out a workaround for, then I think CCP would have more customers than it does.
And Corps and Alliances aren't the "safe" areas, that's where the truly cutthroat PvP takes place LOL.
I'm not trying to badmouth CCP or EvE, just wanted to point out that CCP could make changes that would make the game attractive to ten times as many Players as it is now, but they have their vision and they're sticking with it, as they should since they chose their vision for EvE. No harm, no foul, however their choice is a line in the sand with some of us and it would be good if they understood that. I understand it because I advised the OP to "embrace it or leave" EvE. That is the best end result for everyone in any MMO.
(my comments are "generally speaking", my best guess based upon the comments of others on this forum and other forums concerning EvE over many years)
I'm a vet (on again off again - 60mill SP) and I've dabbled in high, low, and nullsec corps and alliances. I have a good feel for the different offerings EVE has for different types of players.
IMHO, the problem with the 'new player' concern at this point is that it's simply too late.
Most MMO's get to a point where the population is all capped out, burned out, jaded, bored players... This is when it's either time to shut down servers or fund development for fresh content. (Wow doesn't do this well as they think new content means more end-game raids and tier 3538395834983 epic loot) Eve doesn't do this right either, as all their content patches are full of stuff like 'new changes to sovereignty' and 'corp and alliance features' and 'war dec updates' and 'Citadel and siege overhaul' etc etc etc... None of these items concern a new player. None of these items address the issue of new players not having anything fun to do to keep them playing the game long enough to where alliance matters and sov mean anything. It's too late to focus on development overhaul of all the things that effect new players, because nullsec alliances run the game and CCP has to listen to every concern they have.
When I say "too late" I don't mean "you'll never catch up in Skillpoints to vets" -- that's completely irrelevant as well as a tired debate, so we won't go there... Let's just say "skillpoints" are the least of anyone's true concerns.
What I mean is that at the game's prime and even early days, like plenty of MMO's, you have a healthy and lively community of new players all learning at the same time. It promotes comradery, adventure, competition, etc. Today, a new player joins EVE and they're thrown in to multiple different versions of "Hurry up and learn and buy stuff so you can move out to a nullsec corp where the real game is" -- this is horrible. Someone said earlier in this post that Highsec (where players START) should be the meat and potatoes of CCP, and I agree with this.
It takes MONTHS of play time to be viable and survive in nullsec.
Lowsec is another beast all together. There is (in practice) no point in lowsec unless you're a pvper looking to fight other pvpers. It's basically Battlegrounds with no objectives. This analogy because in games that have battlegrounds, it's PVP in a sports-like competitive environment where all your targets are other PVP-minded players. No 'ganking' happens when everyone is in it to kill. That's a different flavor than the random PVP encounter where 1 or more players is not expecting the confrontation. (ganking, sure.... but let's be realistic. non-consentual PVP is the only PVP that feels realistic in a virtual world. "NORMAL" people are not all queued up as UFC fighters. NORMAL people attack the weak, or are the weak being attacked.) EVE's population has turned in to everyone being predators. New players and AFK bears are the prey...
That is the problem. Self defeat. CCP Needs carebears and it needs new players. Both are the ones that have the least amount of good times in EVE.
How to fix? I don't know. Neither do they, apparently, as it's been 12 years now and there's no indication that they know how to get new players to enjoy the game and stay on the larger demographic.
**For the record, I'm a PVP focused player. I am in a corp that operates in Nullsec and lowsec as we are a part of an alliance that has sov. This post is a devil's advocate perspective, as new player concerns don't concern my seasoned character, but I do have a strong opinion on the matter and I think all EVE players at this point should be equally concerned as we won't have an EVE to play if things keep going the way they are.
Why can't there be nullsec/lowsec for pvpers and then an area where people who don't want to PvP can mine, explore, do missions, or hunt pirates?
You are asking for an area in EVE where you can be totally safe, and while I understand that's the desire of many a player, there's no need for CCP to cater to them, the game just isn't for them.
Better that efforts are made to ease players into the game and protect them a bit better until they are ready to take on the greater challenges.
EVE should always be for those willing to struggle to survive, it's a simulation and not a "game"
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I absolutely agree that Eve is a simulation, not a "game"
I absolutely think this is why the game will die soon.
Someone said CCP has drawn a line in the sand when they conceived EVE Online. This line is where the "hardcore struggle" "cold dark lonely universe" "no hand holding" "spreadsheets/research/study" and "lose everything you've worked for" mentality sits. For years, this was the selling point of EVE. Experience the hardcore, brutal, political space simulation.
Today, things have changed in the gaming community, as well as Eve's community itself.
That line in the sand is causing the game to start losing, not winning.
If CCP continues to "stick to their guns" they will go down. EVE is the only thing they have to offer. It's their bread and butter. If EVE fails, CCP shuts it's doors. The ship is sinking. Don't you think 'that', above ALL other reasons, is a good reason to erase that line in the sand? Even to blur it a little, in efforts to keep the game going and the subs coming in?
I would rather CCP starting looking at changing some of their fundamentals and their approach to content development than to stick to their hard-coded rules about being hardcore while the company goes bankrupt.
High sec is just chock full of neutral's who may or may not be thinking about suicide ganking you.
CCP is a commercial company. They're in the game to make money however they have lost their way, suffer from poor to no real leadership, practice favouritism and need a good shake up.
The idea that it's better to have 300,000 greifers over 500,000 Care Bears safe in high and 100,000 pvprs in null, low and wh is idiotic.
EvE needs to return to its original vision.
Edit: I'll point out now that the majority of people Ive killed in game were carebears in high. I used the mechanic intended to make high "relatively safe" rather than absolutely safe. I war decced corps and alliances.
This is was the intended mechanism if you wanted to hunt in high. It allowed high PvP but prevented the completely risk averse from being hunted. That was good, it prevented people quitting which was bad for all EvE players.
In the first few years before leadership at CCP went AWOL suicides were quickly patched out with HP buffs, Concord buffs and fixes. This was the original vision for high.