I'd like to play a game where PvE and PvP were blended together, so you couldn't make progress by doing only one or the other. I believe that is the very essence of MMORPG; to tell a story in a fantasy world but utilise the massively part of MMO and make the other players a part of your story as friends or foes.
I see the current MMO design flawed not only in trying to cater as big an audience as possible but segregating them players in different kind of mini games which could very well be separate games on their own rights; many times you can be a raider, crafter, PvPer, etc. and forget every other aspect of the game completely. People often defend this by saying they want to play these games as they wanted and not being told by developers how to play. I think the richness and uniqueness of MMO games is a diverse and non-repetitive content (not meaning grinding).
The way i see it, there should be both PvP and PvE, which are in some way interdependent from each others. Lets say in WoW you couldn't do some dungeon because you performed poorly against players from other faction, or couldn't gather herbs and ore from certain area because the control of the land belongs to your enemies. These are only rough examples since i'm not a game designer, but that's the basic idea behind my reasoning.
Good Post,
I would disagree personally. Your statement about people defending a flawed system well one could argue that you are doing the same thing. That being said, something about PVP just feels off. It to me never seems to work as intended and I think that is why I have a big aversion to it. I remember playing Tera and I'm low in level and there were groups of people camping outside the bridge and just killing everyone and that is all they did for hours, this is what PVP seems to boil down to in essence. Now If there was a way that I could call or put in a petition to have those people either jailed or killed then sure why not. With PVP it seems people always go to the most negative aspect of it when playing. There is no honor in pvp, hell why does pvp even have rewards associated with it. Maybe if you could implement it in such a way that regardless what level you were it would be entirely skill based then perhaps that might be doable. Then again I was playing GW2 and to me personally PVP is just really boring. Maybe if there was something else that was a threat as well...thoughts?
Why not play one of the thousands of moba's or fps's on the market.
Lack of cannon fodder.
Moba's don't offer a feeling of development and attachment to the character that I created and customized. There's no journey in a moba, there's no sense of being part of an immersive world. I like to play police in open pvp, protecting new players and hunting down bad guys. You simply can't do this in a moba.
Based on my observations on this site, it's quite obvious that what the MMO crowd wants is sit on a park bench and complain loudly about 'kids these days' and how 'men were real men when I grew up'. Or, to quote Monty Python, how 'We used to have to get up out of the shoebox at twelve o'clock at night, and LICK the road clean with our tongues. We had half a handful of freezing cold gravel, worked twenty-four hours a day at the mill for fourpence every six years, and when we got home, our Dad would slice us in two with a bread knife.'
First you need to consider the vast variety of games that are available. I think if you do you will find that your three choices are represented and by far not the only three choices gamers look for when choosing a title to play. You have attempted to over simplify what is a very complex and in depth question, a question that there is no simple answer too.
Next I think you need to consider that people that play games play them they do not sit around cruising forum boards discussing games, they log in and play. I am sure some actual players check forums now and then but as a general rule most gamers are playing when they have the opportunity. I doubt that this community (The MMORPG forums community) even represents a decent cross section of actual gamers.
You see gamers never learn they find a game they like, they play it and they generally leave the forum drama to those that enjoy it. It never works out well for the gamers however, as the small community of whiners usually end up ruining their game and they are forced to make new choices. Sad but true. Even these forums that are not aligned to any one game tend to be where people see opinion on games and it is the very vocal whiny part of the community since the people that mostly love said game are actually playing it.
Having said all that, I don't think the gaming community has any idea what they want over all. I am sure individuals want certain things but I think as a community we really have no one defining path that we would like to see this hobby go down. Using myself as an example, I play RPG games, I play MOBA's, I play shooter's, I play whatever catches my attention that day and I think most people do.
There is not a one size fits all answer here, and I do not believe there ever will be again. WoW pulled that off once, when this was a tiny hobby played by (relatively) few people. Now more than 10 years later there are so many options and so many styles of games out there I sincerely doubt we will ever see a game that will pull as much attention as WoW did. If I am honest here, I am happy about that. There needs to be competition among developers and they need to be held to task when they produce crap.
In conclusion, there is no simple answer here I do not believe the OP knew what he was saying when he asked his question no do I think any answer you find here will be an honest representation of the gaming community.
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.
It is not what we want so much as what have we become. The games really have not changed that much, it is the player base that has changed drastically. The core of the game community has gone from happy goofy family and community oriented geeks, to angry hateful selfish self-centered competitive entitled elitist. Games try to cater to that majority and so it leaves the minority of us feeling like we no longer belong.
There is one true : no real MMO without PVP . Even in a game that don't allow you to kill other players (you say pure PVE ?) , there still PVP elements in it . For example KS , MPK , fight for party slots ect ...
Vardahoth said: Can you quote where this was said, or are you just trolling?
It was said in the Four Yorkshiremen sketch, of course.
And yes, of course I'm joking. It's just that a lot of threads on this site bemoan what happened to the MMO world and how things were better in the old days. That's old men talk, and it's a sign of our times that things change so fast that even relatively young people are already talking like that.
Username not found and I disagree. The kid who made this video is only 18yrs old:
And what does he say at the start, "it might be just because I'm getting older, ... maybe that the gaming world is very different than it was".
If there's a more perfect example of showing how a young person can talk like an old guy, I'm sure it will be hard to find. So thanks for the excellent support for my point.
There is one true : no real MMO without PVP . Even in a game that don't allow you to kill other players (you say pure PVE ?) , there still PVP elements in it . For example KS , MPK , fight for party slots ect ...
Remove PVP elements = no MMO
I 100% Disagree with what you are saying here.
I believe YOU feel that way and of course that is fine for you and I hope you enjoy it. But an MMO is absolutely not defined by PvP or lack there of.
One other thing I forgot to mention in my wall of text is; Community. One of the things I remember most from SWG (My first MMO) was the community. I think a lot of that has been lost since this hobby has virtually exploded in recent years. Well not so recent, I guess since WoW introduced a heap of 'new' gamers to the hobby over 10 years ago.
I by no means consider myself an old school gamer as I started just before the WoW invasion, but I do remember a strong supportive community that was a lot of fun to interact with. I have seldom seen that since then.
One of the other big things is bugs, but that is another topic.
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
I'm not sure "The Community" knows what it wants because it's such a diverse group of individuals that have some very radical differences of opinion. Hardcore PvP through to hardcore PvE and every combination in between. Player housing or not, fast travel or not, mounts or not, crafting or not, best loot from drops or player made.
The list of potential sticking points is long and while you may have large percentages agreeing on many of them few agree on all.
I think it's impossible to make an MMO for everyone. We may all play MMO's but we don't all like the same types of MMO.
There are a lot of people who do not find it entertaining to take things from other people. What passes for PvP in a lot of games is simply a version of depriving other people of their things, or their time. This doesn't interest most people who would otherwise be fine with some kind of PvP that had meaning, not just killing for its own sake.
I want what they have been putting out. I'm not one of these people that just seem to live here and HAVE to give an opinion on everything MMO. I just play.
There are a ton of MMOs that are good...and I have played them til I wasn't enjoying them. Simple.
If I were to be like a lot of ppl here? I would be wasting a lot of time and energy wondering...instead of having fun playing.
I don't have an MMO right now...I am playing Diablo 3. Waiting on FO4. If something grabs my interest....I'll play it.
It's the way it has been since the early 80's. But some of you cannot hack it. You HAVE to have some fix. Not just treat it like a game....entertainment t.
"This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."
Pvp is ok, when it is controlled, but when it is like Mortal Online, old uo, and dark fall it fails. No one wants to spend 40+ hours building/gathering, just so a group of crazy people, can extort them, and that is what happens every time. Which in all of these games, no one ever plays a decent person, and actually goes around and stops that, and since there is no law it just retarded. Arche Age had the best system I have ever seen, that court system, but it needed more refinement.
Which is why I wish Arche Age was like wurm unlimited, Arma 3, or Ark, where you can run private servers, and make the game how you want. I no longer like these developers, and their visions of how to get people addicted, then slap a cash shop and gambling system, box or crafting into the game.
So for my private server, pvp is like this. If we get together and want to have a free for all or grouped based pvp survival match, well I will just edit the server and let that happen, under rules of not ruining peoples hard work, such as stealing, or braking all the stuff they gathered in the last 400 hours.
I hear a lot of people call people, kids, care bears, ect I am sure you know the deal, but I know very few people who enjoy losing all their hobby work, to destructive people. The people who say they like that gank fest, loss all your stuff, really don't like it. They just play and get with the strongest group, and end up being some ones bitch basically, so they don't suffer the fate of the people they are killing, and robbing.
I hear a lot of people call people, kids, care bears, ect I am sure you know the deal, but I know very few people who enjoy losing all their hobby work, to destructive people. The people who say they like that gank fest, loss all your stuff, really don't like it. They just play and get with the strongest group, and end up being some ones bitch basically, so they don't suffer the fate of the people they are killing, and robbing.
"Bitches" as you call it, who follow the strongest and wait their turn with absolute patience and integrity is usually the one that comes up winning it all, just saying.
Prime example - Tokugawa Ieyasu, first Shogun of Japan.
Your choices don't even cover it! Its all about money and no game from now on will reflect anything other then making a buck! Maybe you will find an RGP like fallout or Witcher or some of the others that might have some depth but the mmo is dead.
Which MMO community? The open world pvp community? The PVE with instanced pvp community? The no pvp with my PVE community? Or the communities that like a mix of the aforementioned?
"I used to think the worst thing in life was to be all alone. It's not. The worst thing in life is to end up with people who make you feel all alone." Robin Williams
Well for me its second option(maybe first one i look camelot unchained/crowfall this kind) , but since "whats mmorpg community want" i voted third
After thousands mmo i clear conclude People say like open world pvp , MOST dont have "balls"(tried dont sound offensive) to play this kind game Same tears in all open world , grief,gank,unbalanced,zerg and others kind stuffs dev cant restrict because lost essence in game its happen often in full loot / open world pvp games with lack or bit safezones , can be apply as well in themepark with openworld pvp
Pve guys(not have any issues with this kind player) cry because get ganked while farm or low level/skilled get zerged by high levels , sorry guys if you login in game you automatic accepty this rules , if you not happy just move on ( like usual i do in mortal online(its one reason,have others))
And most mmo have battleground or any kind pvp , most 90% only care about rewards Archivments / pets / titles (yes you know wow its you) others 40% use bots because finding boring and dont care about fights
Why wouldn't we have different likes and dislikes? What is wrong with my liking something you don't. Or vice versa?
"I used to think the worst thing in life was to be all alone. It's not. The worst thing in life is to end up with people who make you feel all alone." Robin Williams
I voted #2, but would like to say there should have been an option for PVE with flagged Open PVP. This way people who want to PvP anywhere, anytime could flag for it. Those who don't wouldn't flag.
There are 3 types of people in the world. 1.) Those who make things happen 2.) Those who watch things happen 3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
Comments
I would disagree personally. Your statement about people defending a flawed system well one could argue that you are doing the same thing. That being said, something about PVP just feels off. It to me never seems to work as intended and I think that is why I have a big aversion to it. I remember playing Tera and I'm low in level and there were groups of people camping outside the bridge and just killing everyone and that is all they did for hours, this is what PVP seems to boil down to in essence. Now If there was a way that I could call or put in a petition to have those people either jailed or killed then sure why not. With PVP it seems people always go to the most negative aspect of it when playing. There is no honor in pvp, hell why does pvp even have rewards associated with it. Maybe if you could implement it in such a way that regardless what level you were it would be entirely skill based then perhaps that might be doable. Then again I was playing GW2 and to me personally PVP is just really boring. Maybe if there was something else that was a threat as well...thoughts?
First you need to consider the vast variety of games that are available. I think if you do you will find that your three choices are represented and by far not the only three choices gamers look for when choosing a title to play. You have attempted to over simplify what is a very complex and in depth question, a question that there is no simple answer too.
Next I think you need to consider that people that play games play them they do not sit around cruising forum boards discussing games, they log in and play. I am sure some actual players check forums now and then but as a general rule most gamers are playing when they have the opportunity. I doubt that this community (The MMORPG forums community) even represents a decent cross section of actual gamers.
You see gamers never learn they find a game they like, they play it and they generally leave the forum drama to those that enjoy it. It never works out well for the gamers however, as the small community of whiners usually end up ruining their game and they are forced to make new choices. Sad but true. Even these forums that are not aligned to any one game tend to be where people see opinion on games and it is the very vocal whiny part of the community since the people that mostly love said game are actually playing it.
Having said all that, I don't think the gaming community has any idea what they want over all. I am sure individuals want certain things but I think as a community we really have no one defining path that we would like to see this hobby go down. Using myself as an example, I play RPG games, I play MOBA's, I play shooter's, I play whatever catches my attention that day and I think most people do.
There is not a one size fits all answer here, and I do not believe there ever will be again. WoW pulled that off once, when this was a tiny hobby played by (relatively) few people. Now more than 10 years later there are so many options and so many styles of games out there I sincerely doubt we will ever see a game that will pull as much attention as WoW did. If I am honest here, I am happy about that. There needs to be competition among developers and they need to be held to task when they produce crap.
In conclusion, there is no simple answer here I do not believe the OP knew what he was saying when he asked his question no do I think any answer you find here will be an honest representation of the gaming community.
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.
Even in a game that don't allow you to kill other players (you say pure PVE ?) , there still PVP elements in it . For example KS , MPK , fight for party slots ect ...
Remove PVP elements = no MMO
And yes, of course I'm joking. It's just that a lot of threads on this site bemoan what happened to the MMO world and how things were better in the old days. That's old men talk, and it's a sign of our times that things change so fast that even relatively young people are already talking like that.
If there's a more perfect example of showing how a young person can talk like an old guy, I'm sure it will be hard to find. So thanks for the excellent support for my point.
I believe YOU feel that way and of course that is fine for you and I hope you enjoy it. But an MMO is absolutely not defined by PvP or lack there of.
One other thing I forgot to mention in my wall of text is; Community. One of the things I remember most from SWG (My first MMO) was the community. I think a lot of that has been lost since this hobby has virtually exploded in recent years. Well not so recent, I guess since WoW introduced a heap of 'new' gamers to the hobby over 10 years ago.
I by no means consider myself an old school gamer as I started just before the WoW invasion, but I do remember a strong supportive community that was a lot of fun to interact with. I have seldom seen that since then.
One of the other big things is bugs, but that is another topic.
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.
obviously yes.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
The list of potential sticking points is long and while you may have large percentages agreeing on many of them few agree on all.
I think it's impossible to make an MMO for everyone. We may all play MMO's but we don't all like the same types of MMO.
It's a difficult game system to develop.
There are a ton of MMOs that are good...and I have played them til I wasn't enjoying them. Simple.
If I were to be like a lot of ppl here? I would be wasting a lot of time and energy wondering...instead of having fun playing.
I don't have an MMO right now...I am playing Diablo 3. Waiting on FO4. If something grabs my interest....I'll play it.
It's the way it has been since the early 80's. But some of you cannot hack it. You HAVE to have some fix. Not just treat it like a game....entertainment t.
"This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."
When do we want it?! NOW!
God bless and game hard.
Which is why I wish Arche Age was like wurm unlimited, Arma 3, or Ark, where you can run private servers, and make the game how you want. I no longer like these developers, and their visions of how to get people addicted, then slap a cash shop and gambling system, box or crafting into the game.
So for my private server, pvp is like this. If we get together and want to have a free for all or grouped based pvp survival match, well I will just edit the server and let that happen, under rules of not ruining peoples hard work, such as stealing, or braking all the stuff they gathered in the last 400 hours.
I hear a lot of people call people, kids, care bears, ect I am sure you know the deal, but I know very few people who enjoy losing all their hobby work, to destructive people. The people who say they like that gank fest, loss all your stuff, really don't like it. They just play and get with the strongest group, and end up being some ones bitch basically, so they don't suffer the fate of the people they are killing, and robbing.
Prime example - Tokugawa Ieyasu, first Shogun of Japan.
MMO'ers want MOBA's, shooters, and lobby multiplayers.
MMORPG'ers are the ones that actually want community.
If they were all good, why stop playing?
"MA-O-AM! MA-O-AM! MA-O-AM!"
sorry... german joke ^^
"I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"
After thousands mmo i clear conclude
People say like open world pvp , MOST dont have "balls"(tried dont sound offensive) to play this kind game
Same tears in all open world , grief,gank,unbalanced,zerg and others kind stuffs dev cant restrict because lost essence in game its happen often in full loot / open world pvp games with lack or bit safezones , can be apply as well in themepark with openworld pvp
Pve guys(not have any issues with this kind player) cry because get ganked while farm or low level/skilled get zerged by high levels , sorry guys if you login in game you automatic accepty this rules , if you not happy just move on ( like usual i do in mortal online(its one reason,have others))
And most mmo have battleground or any kind pvp , most 90% only care about rewards
Archivments / pets / titles (yes you know wow its you) others 40% use bots because finding boring and dont care about fights
There are 3 types of people in the world.
1.) Those who make things happen
2.) Those who watch things happen
3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"