Then we're going to hire one of the lead guys from CCP who was in charge ...
I've worked at CCP for about 7 or 8 years and I have no idea who the hell that dude is. I'm not saying he didn't work there, but whatever time he spent there it certainly was not as a "lead guy from CCP". Only pointing that out because it seems unfair to pin the unfortunate events of WOD development on some guy that may have just blocked out a house interior or scripted some NPC chat.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
What would make for a good discussion is who the target audience would be for such a game, how the game would cater to that audience, and what would be the conequences, if any, of disenfranchising the other segments of interested parties.
It's said that Paradox publishes niche games, so, in the case of a MMO, the main target would have to be the WoD tabletop and video game fans, if they want to make it more niche, then they'd have to make it more hardcore and sandbox and hopefully not like other MMOs flooded with so many quests and nothing about player interactions. I liked what CCP said they were going to make with the PVE, it wasn't going to be about being able to kill everybody, if not about exploring the scary World of Darkness and you were going to need other abilities to achieve some things, in the case of the vampires, they're not the stronger supernatural beings in WoD, except for Caine, who's god-like.
What would make for a good discussion is who the target audience would be for such a game, how the game would cater to that audience, and what would be the conequences, if any, of disenfranchising the other segments of interested parties.
It's said that Paradox publishes niche games, so, in the case of a MMO, the main target would have to be the WoD tabletop and video game fans, if they want to make it more niche, then they'd have to make it more hardcore and sandbox and hopefully not like other MMOs flooded with so many quests and nothing about player interactions. I liked what CCP said they were going to make with the PVE, it wasn't going to be about being able to kill everybody, if not about exploring the scary World of Darkness and you were going to need other abilities to achieve some things, in the case of the vampires, they're not the stronger supernatural beings in WoD, except for Caine, who's god-like.
You refer to them as tabletop games, and there definitely were some (ex: V:TES, a CCG), but weren't they storytelling/LARPing games? The groups and communities such as One World by Night, The Camarilla, Garou Nation and such play the game not through cards, miniatures, and 3D worlds by physically in a real world setting. Hold that thought for now, and let's move to some other segments.
Fans of VtM-Bloodlines. There is definitely a following for it, and if you haven't played it yet, I'd recommend trying it out. But the masterpiece of it was the storytelling, which works best in a single-player setting and breaks down drastically the more players you add in, especially in a persistent world. But we're straying. Let's get back to segments.
Vampire fans! There's the TrueBlood/Vamp Diaries fans, the Twilight fans, the Underworld (very much like WOD) fans. How about the Buffy/Angel crowd? Seems you have a good bit of diversity there. The IP or canon that one leans towards determines greatly the crowd that they will attract and the crowd they will drive away.
That's some of the larger segments, and it's rather clear that what you build for one segment will be less that fun or even downright repulsive to other segements.
So which segement would be good to cater to? And what kind of game would work best for them?
Post edited by Loktofeit on
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Then we're going to hire one of the lead guys from CCP who was in charge ...
I've worked at CCP for about 7 or 8 years and I have no idea who the hell that dude is. I'm not saying he didn't work there, but whatever time he spent there it certainly was not as a "lead guy from CCP". Only pointing that out because it seems unfair to pin the unfortunate events of WOD development on some guy that may have just blocked out a house interior or scripted some NPC chat.
Ok, well the article built him up as being someone important in CCP and since I don't work there I can only go off of what it says. I want this game to succeed. Hell, I wanted it to succeed under CCP cause I had faith that the team that could make the best MMO on earth could make the second best MMO on earth.
You refer to them as tabletop games, and there definitely were some (ex: V:TES, a CCG), but weren't they storytelling/LARPing games? The groups and communities such as One World by Night, The Camarilla, Garou Nation and such play the game not through cards, miniatures, and 3D worlds by physically in a real world setting.
Fans of VtM-Bloodlines. There is definitely a following for it. Let's get back to segments. Vampire fans! The IP or canon that one leans towards determines greatly the crowd that they will attract and the crowd they will drive away. That's some of the larger segments, and it's rather clear that what you build for one segment will be less that fun or even downright repulsive to other segements. So which segement would be good to cater to? And what kind of game would work best for them?
That topic was debated for years by all the communities who knew World of Darkness, after the MMO was announced in 2006, also for newcomers who were only interested in the MMO. It seems you didn't know part of the LARPing and tabletop RPG communities were expecting to play the MMO, too. I'll tell you what CCP wanted to make before the cancellation in 2014. For now, some history:
That video game's based on a Pen & Paper, tabletop RPG made by "White Wolf" (not this new WW) called "Vampire: The Masquerade" (1991), that's played over a table and with dice. WoD is the second best-selling game, behind D&D.
VTM's part of the "World of Darkness" setting, many gamelines are/were made for it, VTM, "Werewolf: The Apocalypse" and "Mage: The Ascension" are the big three. The LARP gameline's called "Mind's Eye Theatre" started in 1993. After WoD success, White Wolf started to publish novels. VTM was licensed through the years to make that collectible card game you said, firstly called "Jyhad", it was renamed to "Vampire: The Eternal Struggle", WTA has its own CCG called "Rage". Two WTA video games were cancelled in the 90s for different reasons. VTM was licensed to make VTM Redemption in 2000, "Hunter: The Reckoning" which's another WoD tabletop RPG got 3 console games (2002-2004) and in 2004 VTM Bloodlines was released.
The tabletop RPG was ended in 2004 with game books and novels about the Gehenna, in the case of VTM. WW started a new game that same year, also named WoD, but it's known as New WoD among the community, it's a storytelling game, with sandbox mechanics, there's no metaplot or a lore in the scale of Classic WoD. In 2006 WW merged with CCP to make the WoD MMO, in 2010 they announced it'd be based on Classic WoD, the news was very well received by the community. The original tabletop version was revived in 2011. After WW employees left CCP in 2011, one of them founded Onyx Path and licensed the tabletop RPGs and they now keep publishing books for such games under the 20th Anniversary Edition, a 4th Edition is planned, although the new WW and Onyx Path still have no news about the licensees of the IPs.
There's also a TV series based on VTM, called "Kindred: The Embraced" (1996), like some VTMB fans, those who like KTE don't know it's based on a tabletop RPG. I've played VTMB, yeah, it's great. It'd be better its fans move on and see what WoD can offer. Also, most of the things you see on that video were directly inspired by the tabletop RPG, the tutorial with Jack is inspired by an introductory story in VTM Revised Edition (1998). All those notes and quotes you read on the loading screens were taken from the books. The weaknesses of the Clans are different in the tabletop RPG.
I suppose your concern about bringing anybody to a possible resume of the MMO project, it's because that's the way to make it profitable for the company, right? If not, I don't know why you want to play with them and ignore the other vital WoD communities, change the lore to attract as much people as you can, in the end, they might just become in casual players. Better to have a high quality niche game based on the source material and made for an specific audience who wants to play a WoD game, not a game for DraculaWheresMyCastle, HuntingAngels, BrotherWarsAreHot, LycanLycanLycan and let them destroy the lore, because it should be adapted to them, there's already another MMO if they want Vampires/Werewolves/Humans, it's called "Moonlight Online". You should watch the video "EVE Fanfest 2012 - World of Darkness" to see what was the feeling about making the WoD MMO appealing to any vampire fan.
Now, CCP wanted to make a hardcore sandbox MMO with traditional MMO features, the latter would have being used to attract newcomers to the sandbox/hardcore part of the game, in other words, let them see and learn the lore (most of those MMO quests and mechanics were different to the tabletop RPG, though) with the quests, then if they wanted, they'd have passed to the sandbox part of the game.
By the way, Underworld? They took some ideas from WoD, even White Wolf sued Sony for that film, the case was settled in secret. The result? The other 3 Underworld movies took a different direction and were less interesting for their fans. Another note, WoD, particularly VTM inspired the modern supernatural stories that exist today, in the same way, other pre-1991 supernatural lores inspired VTM/WoD.
"You refer to them as tabletop games, and there definitely were some..."
Let's use "some" more words, here's a list of the games without counting the about 750 books among novels made for all of them and without those made for New WoD.
Vampire: The Masquerade
Werewolf: The Apocalypse
Mage: The Ascension
Mind’s Eye Theatre
Kindred of The Ebony Kingdom
Kindred of The East
Vampire: The Dark Ages
World of Darkness
Hunter: The Reckoning
Changeling: The Dreaming
Wraith: The Oblivion
Demon: The Fallen
Orpheus
Mummy: The Resurrection
Would be interesting to ask Paradox what they will do with the Onyx Path team: will they work together ? Will Onyx Path be free to release all the WoD books they want ?
Sonshou said: It seems you didn't know part of the LARPing and tabletop RPG communities were expecting to play the MMO, too. I'll tell you what CCP wanted to make before the cancellation in 2014.
Dude, I was just throwing something out there as a topic I thought we'd all find interesting for discussion. I did not relay anything beyond that. Please don't confuse my lack of details or lack of stance on the matter for lack of knowledge of the community, the development, or CCP.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Sonshou said: It seems you didn't know part of the LARPing and tabletop RPG communities were expecting to play the MMO, too. I'll tell you what CCP wanted to make before the cancellation in 2014.
Dude, I was just throwing something out there as a topic I thought we'd all find interesting for discussion. I did not relay anything beyond that. Please don't confuse my lack of details or lack of stance on the matter for lack of knowledge of the community, the development, or CCP.
people assume. this happens all the time here. it's a trend. I for one would love to see a good MMO based on WOD universe. Don't really care who it caters to as long as it's good. Call me casual, i don't care. I didn't have the tabletop experience, I'm coming from a perspective of enjoying the VTM game and reading a few books after. That's it. I would still throw my money to see a very well made game based on that small bit alone. It doesn't have to be anything but a good MMO experience.
"Beliefs don't change facts. Facts, if you're reasonable, should change your beliefs."
"The Society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."
Currently: Games Audio Engineer, you didn't hear what I heard, you heard what I wanted you to hear.
klash2def said: I for one would love to see a good MMO based on WOD universe. Don't really care who it caters to as long as it's good. Call me casual, i don't care. I didn't have the tabletop experience, I'm coming from a perspective of enjoying the VTM game and reading a few books after. That's it. I would still throw my money to see a very well made game based on that small bit alone. It doesn't have to be anything but a good MMO experience.
In some ways Funcom's The Secret World seemed like a window into what a WOD MMO of that type might look like.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Comments
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Fans of VtM-Bloodlines. There is definitely a following for it, and if you haven't played it yet, I'd recommend trying it out. But the masterpiece of it was the storytelling, which works best in a single-player setting and breaks down drastically the more players you add in, especially in a persistent world. But we're straying. Let's get back to segments.
Vampire fans! There's the TrueBlood/Vamp Diaries fans, the Twilight fans, the Underworld (very much like WOD) fans. How about the Buffy/Angel crowd? Seems you have a good bit of diversity there. The IP or canon that one leans towards determines greatly the crowd that they will attract and the crowd they will drive away.
That's some of the larger segments, and it's rather clear that what you build for one segment will be less that fun or even downright repulsive to other segements.
So which segement would be good to cater to? And what kind of game would work best for them?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Sadly, it wasn't to be.
That video game's based on a Pen & Paper, tabletop RPG made by "White Wolf" (not this new WW) called "Vampire: The Masquerade" (1991), that's played over a table and with dice. WoD is the second best-selling game, behind D&D.
VTM's part of the "World of Darkness" setting, many gamelines are/were made for it, VTM, "Werewolf: The Apocalypse" and "Mage: The Ascension" are the big three. The LARP gameline's called "Mind's Eye Theatre" started in 1993. After WoD success, White Wolf started to publish novels. VTM was licensed through the years to make that collectible card game you said, firstly called "Jyhad", it was renamed to "Vampire: The Eternal Struggle", WTA has its own CCG called "Rage". Two WTA video games were cancelled in the 90s for different reasons. VTM was licensed to make VTM Redemption in 2000, "Hunter: The Reckoning" which's another WoD tabletop RPG got 3 console games (2002-2004) and in 2004 VTM Bloodlines was released.
The tabletop RPG was ended in 2004 with game books and novels about the Gehenna, in the case of VTM. WW started a new game that same year, also named WoD, but it's known as New WoD among the community, it's a storytelling game, with sandbox mechanics, there's no metaplot or a lore in the scale of Classic WoD. In 2006 WW merged with CCP to make the WoD MMO, in 2010 they announced it'd be based on Classic WoD, the news was very well received by the community. The original tabletop version was revived in 2011. After WW employees left CCP in 2011, one of them founded Onyx Path and licensed the tabletop RPGs and they now keep publishing books for such games under the 20th Anniversary Edition, a 4th Edition is planned, although the new WW and Onyx Path still have no news about the licensees of the IPs.
There's also a TV series based on VTM, called "Kindred: The Embraced" (1996), like some VTMB fans, those who like KTE don't know it's based on a tabletop RPG. I've played VTMB, yeah, it's great. It'd be better its fans move on and see what WoD can offer. Also, most of the things you see on that video were directly inspired by the tabletop RPG, the tutorial with Jack is inspired by an introductory story in VTM Revised Edition (1998). All those notes and quotes you read on the loading screens were taken from the books. The weaknesses of the Clans are different in the tabletop RPG.
I suppose your concern about bringing anybody to a possible resume of the MMO project, it's because that's the way to make it profitable for the company, right? If not, I don't know why you want to play with them and ignore the other vital WoD communities, change the lore to attract as much people as you can, in the end, they might just become in casual players. Better to have a high quality niche game based on the source material and made for an specific audience who wants to play a WoD game, not a game for DraculaWheresMyCastle, HuntingAngels, BrotherWarsAreHot, LycanLycanLycan and let them destroy the lore, because it should be adapted to them, there's already another MMO if they want Vampires/Werewolves/Humans, it's called "Moonlight Online". You should watch the video "EVE Fanfest 2012 - World of Darkness" to see what was the feeling about making the WoD MMO appealing to any vampire fan.
Now, CCP wanted to make a hardcore sandbox MMO with traditional MMO features, the latter would have being used to attract newcomers to the sandbox/hardcore part of the game, in other words, let them see and learn the lore (most of those MMO quests and mechanics were different to the tabletop RPG, though) with the quests, then if they wanted, they'd have passed to the sandbox part of the game.
By the way, Underworld? They took some ideas from WoD, even White Wolf sued Sony for that film, the case was settled in secret. The result? The other 3 Underworld movies took a different direction and were less interesting for their fans. Another note, WoD, particularly VTM inspired the modern supernatural stories that exist today, in the same way, other pre-1991 supernatural lores inspired VTM/WoD.
"You refer to them as tabletop games, and there definitely were some..."
Let's use "some" more words, here's a list of the games without counting the about 750 books among novels made for all of them and without those made for New WoD.
Vampire: The Masquerade
Werewolf: The Apocalypse
Mage: The Ascension
Mind’s Eye Theatre
Kindred of The Ebony Kingdom
Kindred of The East
Vampire: The Dark Ages
World of Darkness
Hunter: The Reckoning
Changeling: The Dreaming
Wraith: The Oblivion
Demon: The Fallen
Orpheus
Mummy: The Resurrection
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
"The Society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."
Currently: Games Audio Engineer, you didn't hear what I heard, you heard what I wanted you to hear.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre