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Dogma: Eternal Night - Vampire MMORPG with Player-Driven World and Permadeath

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  • DauntisDauntis Member UncommonPosts: 600
    Ah the kiss of death for MMOs ... permadeath. Don't believe me, name 3 successful MMOs that feature permadeath, hell, name one.

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  • TimeCross1TimeCross1 Member UncommonPosts: 6
    Dauntis said:
    Ah the kiss of death for MMOs ... permadeath. Don't believe me, name 3 successful MMOs that feature permadeath, hell, name one.

    And everyone who's complained about this feature, none have taken the time to see how perma-death in this game will work.
    Sovrath
  • TimeCross1TimeCross1 Member UncommonPosts: 6
    Since I can't edit my post, I meant to say "And everyone (the few and far between) who've"
  • jesteralwaysjesteralways Member RarePosts: 2,560
    Tricky, permadeath is the buzzword among "sandbox crowd" but when it comes to permadeath games, these same people start screaming "it was done in a horrible manner, mechanic was bad and bla bla bla" or other excuse. We will see how this game does permadeath.

    Boobs are LIFE, Boobs are LOVE, Boobs are JUSTICE, Boobs are mankind's HOPES and DREAMS. People who complain about boobs have lost their humanity.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Member RarePosts: 14,247
    Tricky, permadeath is the buzzword among "sandbox crowd" but when it comes to permadeath games, these same people start screaming "it was done in a horrible manner, mechanic was bad and bla bla bla" or other excuse. We will see how this game does permadeath.
    There's a certain level of insanity in that. 

    "It doesn't work well in MMOs."
    "It can be done, just no one is doing it right!"
    "Well, what is "right"?"
    "That's for the devs to figure out."
    "Every attempt so far has failed, though."
    "Because they're too lazy/scared/publisher-led/money-driven/etc to just do it right."




    Chimborazo

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
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  • jesteralwaysjesteralways Member RarePosts: 2,560
    Loktofeit said:
    Tricky, permadeath is the buzzword among "sandbox crowd" but when it comes to permadeath games, these same people start screaming "it was done in a horrible manner, mechanic was bad and bla bla bla" or other excuse. We will see how this game does permadeath.
    There's a certain level of insanity in that. 

    "It doesn't work well in MMOs."
    "It can be done, just no one is doing it right!"
    "Well, what is "right"?"
    "That's for the devs to figure out."
    "Every attempt so far has failed, though."
    "Because they're too lazy/scared/publisher-led/money-driven/etc to just do it right."




    HUH!!! you said it perfectly!!

    Boobs are LIFE, Boobs are LOVE, Boobs are JUSTICE, Boobs are mankind's HOPES and DREAMS. People who complain about boobs have lost their humanity.

  • MikehaMikeha Member EpicPosts: 9,196
    Permadeath means this game will not have meaningful character progression. Looks like it will be some kind of shooter and not a real mmo.
    Chimborazo
  • YanocchiYanocchi Member UncommonPosts: 677
    Interesting discovery but there should be more information about the game. Judging by the trailer alone looks neat. Permadeath might work if it is some kind of fast tempo game where dying and making a new character is a norm and individual characters don't get to progress to far or game account gets some sort of progress despite of permadeaths of individual characters.
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  • MMOvisionMMOvision Member UncommonPosts: 112
    Why doesn't anyone subscribe to the idea that permadeath doesn't have to mean "you lost everything you've worked for" ?

    I think there are wonderful permadeath systems that i've seen, PLAYED, heard about, and discussed.

    For example:  A system where your "character" dies and is gone forever, in the sense that yes, that person named "dude" no longer exists.    But the powers Dude gained, the abilities, the friendlist, the items/buildings/collections.... all can stay.    Dude disappeared in a fiery burst of ember and ash, and out of the ashes emerged "Duder" ---  different person.  Same (or even more) abilities, as they just sort of evolved from their prior self after death.  

    That is a rare example, and similar versions (i.e. family trees, Kin, spiritual successor, etc) have similar ideas and execution.     The idea is that on character creation, the players creates 5, maybe 10 character models for each time they die, and even in some cases, the game engine will blend traits together to make randomly generated "new" characters based off the player's prior selections.   

    Ideas like these and many more make perma-death sounds FAR MORE interesting and engaging than "die, respawn, repeat" imho.      

    I just don't get why the box is containing everyone's thinking when there's so many good ways to make perma-death work without trolling players into losing everything they worked for.

    Ideally, a decent perma-death game uses it as an achievement feature and not a 'difficulty' toggle/feature.   

     It's supposed to be about "look how far this player made it on this character before the character died!" not "let's make sure the game is hard by making them have to start over every time they make a mistake.

    Sovrath
  • YanocchiYanocchi Member UncommonPosts: 677
    There is also at least one other alternative to permadeath. Access to a dead character could be temporarily disabled, so that player wouldn't be able to log in with the character for a certain number of RL days or weeks.
    Baldur's Gate Online - Video Trailer
    * more info, screenshots and videos here

  • DeserttFoxxDeserttFoxx Member UncommonPosts: 2,402
    I personally wouldnt mention perma death as a selling point, i would just say hardcore or realisitc. or soemthing along those lines.

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  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 4,198
    edited November 2015
    [mod edit]


    Back to the derailed subject... I think perm death can work. MMORPG players are trained to think progression is the whole game. A game where perm death is common it would have to be about the experience.   You could also have an experience where perm death isn't common experience.   
    Post edited by Amana on
  • HalfgrimmHalfgrimm Member UncommonPosts: 76
    Don't you guys think you're getting a little overheated over a game that hasn't even been released on Kickstarter yet?
    Buried under rocks. Hidden under leaves. Halfgrimm the whole time.
  • iixviiiixiixviiiix Member RarePosts: 2,256
    edited November 2015
    Back to the derailed subject... I think perm death can work. MMORPG players are trained to think progression is the whole game. A game where perm death is common it would have to be about the experience.   You could also have an experience where perm death isn't common experience.   
    formula is 10% character progress and 90% gears . Add some special spices and you get a good perm death .
    For example , in this game is case
    10% character progress = 12h to 24h leveling .
    90% focus on gun and armor + other consumable stuff
    Special spices is the RNG special ability get from killing vampires .

    When player dead , he lost character progress (12h to 24h punishment) gears lost (can be replace) but the special ability is rare so dead mean bigger deal .

  • VorthanionVorthanion Member RarePosts: 2,749
    edited November 2015
    [mod edit]



    [mod edit]
      I've yet to see an MMO that has perma-death as an option.  So far, it's always listed as a primary feature.  Which would be fine with me in a game without progression.
    Post edited by Amana on

    image
  • HalfgrimmHalfgrimm Member UncommonPosts: 76
    @iixviiiix Wait... we don't actually play as vampires in this game? Dreams... shattered.
    Buried under rocks. Hidden under leaves. Halfgrimm the whole time.
  • iixviiiixiixviiiix Member RarePosts: 2,256
    Halfgrimm said:
    @iixviiiix Wait... we don't actually play as vampires in this game? Dreams... shattered.
    IDK lol , it just an example for how perm death would work (at lest for me) i never heard about Eternal Night - vampire before .
  • KefoKefo Member EpicPosts: 4,229
    edited November 2015
    [mod edit]

    [mod edit]


    Back on topic, permadeath can work in a MMO but its going to be a uphill struggle imo.
    Post edited by Amana on
  • AmanaAmana Moderator UncommonPosts: 3,912
    Removed several posts that derailed the thread into a 'definition of MMO' discussion. 

    To give feedback on moderation, contact mikeb@mmorpg.com

  • ShaighShaigh Member EpicPosts: 2,150
    Kickstarter, indie developer, unity, sandbox with permadeath. This one is hitting all the wrong buttons.
    Iselin: And the next person who says "but it's a business, they need to make money" can just go fuck yourself.
  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 32,780
    Dauntis said:
    Ah the kiss of death for MMOs ... permadeath. Don't believe me, name 3 successful MMOs that feature permadeath, hell, name one.
    Can you name three that were considered excellently crafted games with few bugs and  great art design?

    Can you name one?
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  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 25,483
    While I don't think permadeath would intrinsically kill a game, it would certainly matter how it's implemented.  If a lag spike or untimely disconnection means that your character is permanently dead and you lose tens or hundreds of hours of progress, that probably would kill a game.

    But if getting yourself permanently killed required going far out of your way and couldn't be done quickly or accidentally, that's a different matter entirely.  See how A Tale in the Desert did it in the first telling, for example:  it required going out of your way to get expensive components that started a 30 day timer before you died, and you could reset the timer by drinking cabbage juice, a trivially cheap item with a market value of maybe 2 seconds worth of some newbie's labor.
  • TimeCross1TimeCross1 Member UncommonPosts: 6
    edited November 2015
    Quizzical said:
    While I don't think permadeath would intrinsically kill a game, it would certainly matter how it's implemented.  If a lag spike or untimely disconnection means that your character is permanently dead and you lose tens or hundreds of hours of progress, that probably would kill a game.

    But if getting yourself permanently killed required going far out of your way and couldn't be done quickly or accidentally, that's a different matter entirely.  See how A Tale in the Desert did it in the first telling, for example:  it required going out of your way to get expensive components that started a 30 day timer before you died, and you could reset the timer by drinking cabbage juice, a trivially cheap item with a market value of maybe 2 seconds worth of some newbie's labor.
    There are technical metrics in place on the games "back-end" system where the dev team can tell when someone "lags out" and this would be fixable and reversible.  

    As to your second paragraph:

    When you die (at the beginning and throughout the game) you will "respawn" at a local morgue if you still have your 'Essense' as a player. However, once all of your Essence is gone (this is lost over time as you complete hanous acts breaking the Dogma), once it's gone completely, you can THEN be perma-killed. However, if you lose your Essence, it can be regained in various ways so that if you are killed, you're not perma-killed. Granted that's how it's been explained and obviously could always change slightly.
  • DibdabsDibdabs Member RarePosts: 3,238
    edited November 2015
    Dauntis said:
    Ah the kiss of death for MMOs ... permadeath. Don't believe me, name 3 successful MMOs that feature permadeath, hell, name one.
    And everyone who's complained about this feature, none have taken the time to see how perma-death in this game will work.
    Well, that would mean exerting themselves...
  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 19,332
    Says always watch your back or lose your player forever....no thanks.

    Here is what the game is saying in lament terms......Play hours and hours to delete and start over.Your game had better be the most amazing game this planet has ever seen and then some to warrant replaying over and over.

    Even if your just a glutten for pain and wouldn't mind playing over and over,what i will NEVER except in these type of games is cash shop AND crowd funding.Crowd funding is an automatic tale of CHEAP game design,cash shop can NEVER be trusted as they can hook you in until your fully committed then add or change the cash shop in a manner that feels like pulling teeth.

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

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