If you don't like PvE, then stick to MOBAs? Its basically PvP without the imbalance of no-life PvE geared players.
Agreed, why are you looking for PvP in an MMO if you don't also like PVE content, aren't there better games or genres suited to someone who just wants to PvP?
By that logic then you should play a single player RPG vs. playing online Solo MMORPG.
If you don't like PvE, then stick to MOBAs? Its basically PvP without the imbalance of no-life PvE geared players.
Agreed, why are you looking for PvP in an MMO if you don't also like PVE content, aren't there better games or genres suited to someone who just wants to PvP?
MMOs do a lot of things better than other genres.
1) Character Progression - most AAA mmos, even the bad ones, tend to have much better character progression (skills and stats) than single player RPGs or PvP only games.
2) Character Ownership - With the amount of customisation available in MMOs, you end up feeling much more attached to your character than you do in PvP-only games like dota or lol.
3) Persistent world / servers - I don't know about the rest of the pvp community, but in every MMO I've played that had PvP, the world / server community adds an extra dimension to pvp. I look forwards to fighting specific people. I feel proud if I manage to kill a particularly well known skilled pvper. I push harder to capture keeps for my side. You don't get this in most pvp-only games.
4) Combat Style - sure, pvp-only games tend to be better balanced than MMOs but usually at the expense of deep combat. MMOs can offer much more interesting combat, even if it is unbalanced. The large scale combat also tends to open up better grouping options and tactics.
5) IP - The IP is one of the biggest draws for me when picking a game. MMOs are often the only place where I can find RPG-style PvP for a particular IP and so I have no choice.
Going back to the OP, I agree that neither PvPers or PvEers should be "forced" to participate in the activity they don't enjoy. However, i feel there isn't enough crossover between the two playstyles and that both communities end up segregated from one another which isn't good for the long term health of the game.
I'd like to see both horizontal gear progression at endgame as well as de-segregation. So, for example, the best pvp gear should be comparable to the best pve gear which should be comparable to the best crafted gear. This would give players 3 different routes to getting the best gear, so they can choose the one they most prefer. It would also allow players to switch playstyle without requiring a massive upfront time investment.
For example, when I was playing SW:TOR, my guild was primarily PvE focused. We had tons of good players, completed all the raids on nightmare mode and everyone was decked out in best pve gear. However, only a few of us PvPed regularly. For the rest of the raiders, they would only want to pvp once a week or once a fortnight. However, without having already leveled up in pvp, they had no gear and no access to it without spending 100+ hours pvping. This meant pvp for them was never enjoyable so they just stopped bothering and often just logged out. This is bad for the guild (bored players at endgame with nothing to do), bad for pvp (barrier for entry too high, so community dwindles over time) and bad for the game (players eventually quit).
Currently Playing: WAR RoR - Spitt rr7X Black Orc | Scrotling rr6X Squig Herder | Scabrous rr4X Shaman
Why on earth would you play an mmo, which are primarily interesting because of player interaction, for pve when a single player rpg does it so much better?
Because that is not true.
No game does pve with so many marvel characters in an action combat setting better than Marvel Heroes. If there is such a single player game (unless you go back to the ancient MUA), let me know and I will play it.
- PvP doesnt belong to MMORPGs - MMORPGs should be PvE only - if you want to do PvP gtfo and play mobas or fps - able to do PvP right from the start is bad because most players are some kind retarded and cant figure the controls
dont make me laugh, why you guys play mmos when there are plenty of single/coop rpgs? right...there is a reason why ppl play mmos, PvPer or PvEer, it doesnt matter, both are part of mmorpgs, pve players are not forced to do pvp in most mmos, but pvp players are forced to do pve, giving the player the choice to do what they want right from the start is something any game should offer, there isnt one right way to play an mmo.
The good thing is that there are a couple of mmos coming up that are basically totally pvp focused without going down the same route as games like Darkfall, so pvpers will have some more choices.
Example in TESO, you need level 10 to go to pvp map, and in order to be strong in PVP, u need to grind PVE...this is a bad design
Example in Archeage, same with teso, you need to grind PVE, in order to be strong in PVP.
See how GW2 allow PVP players to do PVP in Structural PVP map and gain Levels!!! And since level 2 you can enter WVW!!!!!!!
I like PVE if playing single player offline, but when online, i like to interact, fight with other players!! i do like pve once in a blue moon, but many AAA MMMORPG nowadays like TESO and Archeage, force PVP players do PVE in order to be strong. THIS IS BAD DESIGN!!
Also, don't force us PvE-ers to do PvP like EVER!
The best current example being SWTOR, but I could whip out others just fine.
What so good about SWTOR??????? The graphic itself hurt my eyes!!! its worse than WOW!!
I put it here short: In MMORPG, if there is PvP feature you do PvE to perform better in PvP.
If you can pass the whole PvE side and play only PvP, there's no point for having PvE and you should redesign your game immediately, best shot would be MOBA or similar.
If you can pass the whole PvP side and play only PvE, you have used your design resources for a mini game, at best, to please a minority that was not really interested in your game in the first place.
There should always be some connection between these two playstyles. If that's not the case, go back to drawing board and think again.
Example in TESO, you need level 10 to go to pvp map, and in order to be strong in PVP, u need to grind PVE...this is a bad design
Example in Archeage, same with teso, you need to grind PVE, in order to be strong in PVP.
See how GW2 allow PVP players to do PVP in Structural PVP map and gain Levels!!! And since level 2 you can enter WVW!!!!!!!
I like PVE if playing single player offline, but when online, i like to interact, fight with other players!! i do like pve once in a blue moon, but many AAA MMMORPG nowadays like TESO and Archeage, force PVP players do PVE in order to be strong. THIS IS BAD DESIGN!!
Also, don't force us PvE-ers to do PvP like EVER!
The best current example being SWTOR, but I could whip out others just fine.
What so good about SWTOR??????? The graphic itself hurt my eyes!!! its worse than WOW!!
hmm .. you may want to learn to read carefully.
The adjective "best" applies to the word "example" ... not SWTOR.
No game FORCES someone to play PvP or PvE. As far as I know there are no laws requiring people to play a specific MMORPG or even any at all. Heck on this site there are roughly a thousand games listed. If you can't find SOMETHING you like in all that, the problem if clearly you and not any specific game.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
- PvP doesnt belong to MMORPGs - MMORPGs should be PvE only - if you want to do PvP gtfo and play mobas or fps - able to do PvP right from the start is bad because most players are some kind retarded and cant figure the controls
dont make me laugh, why you guys play mmos when there are plenty of single/coop rpgs? right...there is a reason why ppl play mmos, PvPer or PvEer, it doesnt matter, both are part of mmorpgs, pve players are not forced to do pvp in most mmos, but pvp players are forced to do pve, giving the player the choice to do what they want right from the start is something any game should offer, there isnt one right way to play an mmo.
So, yes. Let's leave PvP to other genres and let's focus on the strongpoint of RPGs:
-> Story -> Development of characters -> Choices -> Exploration
Those are indeed important items for rpgs which is exactly why you are better off playing a single player/co-op rpg which excel at those points (compared to mmos).
Conversely, by definition you can only play pvp with other players. A pvp game can also include the various aspects of an rpg you listed above, and that type of game is ideally suited to the framework of an mmo.
I am more of a PvE player myself but in most games (griefing aside) I like the idea of possible danger or getting jumped on and need to fight for my life. In reason of course .
I liked the system in SWTOR where important quest areas are instanced so there's no griefing in those.
- PvP doesnt belong to MMORPGs - MMORPGs should be PvE only - if you want to do PvP gtfo and play mobas or fps - able to do PvP right from the start is bad because most players are some kind retarded and cant figure the controls
dont make me laugh, why you guys play mmos when there are plenty of single/coop rpgs? right...there is a reason why ppl play mmos, PvPer or PvEer, it doesnt matter, both are part of mmorpgs, pve players are not forced to do pvp in most mmos, but pvp players are forced to do pve, giving the player the choice to do what they want right from the start is something any game should offer, there isnt one right way to play an mmo.
So, yes. Let's leave PvP to other genres and let's focus on the strongpoint of RPGs:
-> Story -> Development of characters -> Choices -> Exploration
Those are indeed important items for rpgs which is exactly why you are better off playing a single player/co-op rpg which excel at those points (compared to mmos).
Conversely, by definition you can only play pvp with other players. A pvp game can also include the various aspects of an rpg you listed above, and that type of game is ideally suited to the framework of an mmo.
I think this argument, that MMO should be used exclusively for PvP and that PvE is better in single or co-op games is just biased.
Is massively multiplayer suited to PvP? Of course it is. For a pure PvP MMO you only have to look at Planetside. But that doesn't mean it isn't suited to PvE gameplay. In fact, looking at the MMO genre as a whole, it's obvious that PvE works very well in MMO's.
Some MMO players like to do these things called Raids. You know, those encounters that require more than a few players in a co-op game. In recent years raid sizes have become smaller but you can still see 25 man raids in most MMO's today. Not that long ago it was 40 man, and a few short years before that the numbers weren't restricted at all. Today with GW2 we're starting to see that kind of play return with their dynamic events.
Some people like co-operative gameplay that requires large numbers to take on World Bosses. There be Dragons! Some people like the idea of playing in a virtual world where they can create things like player towns, RIP SWG! Some people like big open worlds where they can go and meet lots of other players and play together and go and kill stuff, explore, craft items and just generally be part of something BIG without the hassle of looking over their shoulder every minute.
I could just as easily say that MMO's are unsuited to any form of PvP because class balance always fucks it up and you should just go and play FPS games for PvP. I'd be talking utter BS if I did but it has about as much validity as the extremely biased argument you present.
The truth is that Massively Multiplayer games can be used for whatever the developer wants. PvE, PvP, basket weaving, drinking contests, strange dances, making rude gestures and blowing raspberries. They can have it all, or they can have some of it. Nobody forces you to play a game that has PvE in it. If you don't like it, then don't play it.
"The truth is that Massively Multiplayer games can be used for whatever
the developer wants. PvE, PvP, basket weaving, drinking contests,
strange dances, making rude gestures and blowing raspberries. They can
have it all, or they can have some of it. Nobody forces you to play a
game that has PvE in it. If you don't like it, then don't play it."
^Truth
"This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."
If you can not put in 3-5 hours to get a level 10 toon in an MMO to join PvP, quit MMO's. There is a reason it is level 10 to get into PvP, its called bots. How about learn a little about your class and get some abilities in that 3-5 hours instead of being a deadbeat in RvR. Holy crap, bitching about 3-5 hours of PvE to play PvP in an MMO might be in top 10 of stupidest garbage I've seen on here.
If you can not put in 3-5 hours to get a level 10 toon in an MMO to join PvP, quit MMO's. There is a reason it is level 10 to get into PvP, its called bots. How about learn a little about your class and get some abilities in that 3-5 hours instead of being a deadbeat in RvR. Holy crap, bitching about 3-5 hours of PvE to play PvP in an MMO might be in top 10 of stupidest garbage I've seen on here.
If you can not put in 3-5 hours to get a level 10 toon in an MMO to join PvP, quit MMO's. There is a reason it is level 10 to get into PvP, its called bots. How about learn a little about your class and get some abilities in that 3-5 hours instead of being a deadbeat in RvR. Holy crap, bitching about 3-5 hours of PvE to play PvP in an MMO might be in top 10 of stupidest garbage I've seen on here.
Have you tried Darkfall or Planetside 2 yet? Darkfall is a MMOAA (Action Adventure, this is what RPGs were called with action combat back in the day.) and Planetside 2 is a MMOFPS and MMOTPS (Can play in both first person and third person perspectives)
Too bad Warhammer Online and Shadowbane closed down, both had PvP that you could level on without ever having to do PvE stuff.
If you can not put in 3-5 hours to get a level 10 toon in an MMO to join PvP, quit MMO's. There is a reason it is level 10 to get into PvP, its called bots. How about learn a little about your class and get some abilities in that 3-5 hours instead of being a deadbeat in RvR. Holy crap, bitching about 3-5 hours of PvE to play PvP in an MMO might be in top 10 of stupidest garbage I've seen on here.
Calling it garbage without a clear reason why it's garbage just comes off as a meaningless insult.
When you're defending a status quo, you need to be sure your position is justified. Yours isn't.
To understand why, imagine if Battlefield required 5 hours of PVE before you could PVP. Or LoL or TF2 or SC2 or Street Fighter or any other major PVP game. Sounds stupid, right? Well it's the exact same thing with MMORPG PVP.
If there was a purpose to it, that'd be one thing. But those games I mentioned don't have issues with bots, so obviously bots aren't the reason (nevermind the fact that botting PVE is much easier than botting PVP.) It's not like that gets any game out of having secure code of course; even the ones with 5 hours of PVE need to be secured against cheaters.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
More proof that the two don't belong together in a game IMO. The games listed either have a separate PvE game that has nothing to with the PvP or don't have PvE at all. It seems a PvP game should be a world that is player populated vs a PvE world that should be NPC populated to a large extent. Concentrating on just one would allow for more funds to be devoted to coming up with more diverse ideas for that niche.
Have you tried Darkfall or Planetside 2 yet? Darkfall is a MMOAA (Action Adventure, this is what RPGs were called with action combat back in the day.) and Planetside 2 is a MMOFPS and MMOTPS (Can play in both first person and third person perspectives)
Too bad Warhammer Online and Shadowbane closed down, both had PvP that you could level on without ever having to do PvE stuff.
nope shadowbane you HAVE to pve to lvl and get gold and maybe some resources to give on your guild/city/town, course you could get a lvl 80 (don't remember what was the cap anymore or was 70 or 75 or 80 lol) to lvl you on lvl 80 mobs but most of time you had to pve to get stones for extra skill/profissions, also a lvl 20 on shadowbane was as not usefull to anything, anyone could one shot you, hell even the npc guards can kill any lvl 50- with one shot
If you can not put in 3-5 hours to get a level 10 toon in an MMO to join PvP, quit MMO's. There is a reason it is level 10 to get into PvP, its called bots. How about learn a little about your class and get some abilities in that 3-5 hours instead of being a deadbeat in RvR. Holy crap, bitching about 3-5 hours of PvE to play PvP in an MMO might be in top 10 of stupidest garbage I've seen on here.
Calling it garbage without a clear reason why it's garbage just comes off as a meaningless insult.
When you're defending a status quo, you need to be sure your position is justified. Yours isn't.
To understand why, imagine if Battlefield required 5 hours of PVE before you could PVP. Or LoL or TF2 or SC2 or Street Fighter or any other major PVP game. Sounds stupid, right? Well it's the exact same thing with MMORPG PVP.
If there was a purpose to it, that'd be one thing. But those games I mentioned don't have issues with bots, so obviously bots aren't the reason (nevermind the fact that botting PVE is much easier than botting PVP.) It's not like that gets any game out of having secure code of course; even the ones with 5 hours of PVE need to be secured against cheaters.
so why not play these? the reason is simple MMORPG require you to hunt mobs to xp then after you get good enough with enough xp you can tackle on pvp, if you permit people to join pvp on lvl 1 then 2 things will happen, you will not have newbies to join your game, since we know very well then when permited caped lvls kills newbies on starter zones, just for the reason they can, also you need to put something for people to get on cap lvl, that is where the pve come in, as long the game will have lvls, or skills based you need something in game to upgrade these, same for gear you need to have something pve players can use to pvp on if not instant dead will happen, and players will quit.
also you can't compare a fps with a MMORPG or a Moba, each one have one thing with is the basic of each other, fps don't have lvl, and if they do normally don't change any stats in game and normally is just to unlock some weapons or skins with in the end have the same stats as lvl 1 weapons, or in BF some weapon ahve a better fire rate when is weak on damage or have too much recoil and so on, mobas like to get close to the player skill and fast reaction, mmorpg is roll of dices or you think all that % we normally use to see combat is just a number?
another thing MMORPG was supose to work almost like the pen and paper but without the hasle of trying to get together 4-6 people to play it. when a fps is just pop in for some rounds and be done.
if you don't like MMORPGs and want to pvp right away there is games for that already, but now asking for MMORPG change what they are to cather you wish to pvp without doing anything else don't work and you know it, all devs who did this become or a niche game or closed doors
If you can not put in 3-5 hours to get a level 10 toon in an MMO to join PvP, quit MMO's. There is a reason it is level 10 to get into PvP, its called bots. How about learn a little about your class and get some abilities in that 3-5 hours instead of being a deadbeat in RvR. Holy crap, bitching about 3-5 hours of PvE to play PvP in an MMO might be in top 10 of stupidest garbage I've seen on here.
Calling it garbage without a clear reason why it's garbage just comes off as a meaningless insult.
When you're defending a status quo, you need to be sure your position is justified. Yours isn't.
To understand why, imagine if Battlefield required 5 hours of PVE before you could PVP. Or LoL or TF2 or SC2 or Street Fighter or any other major PVP game. Sounds stupid, right? Well it's the exact same thing with MMORPG PVP.
If there was a purpose to it, that'd be one thing. But those games I mentioned don't have issues with bots, so obviously bots aren't the reason (nevermind the fact that botting PVE is much easier than botting PVP.) It's not like that gets any game out of having secure code of course; even the ones with 5 hours of PVE need to be secured against cheaters.
if you don't like MMORPGs and want to pvp right away there is games for that already, but now asking for MMORPG change what they are to cather you wish to pvp without doing anything else don't work and you know it, all devs who did this become or a niche game or closed doors
There are no mmos on the market where you can make a character, pvp, and progress in a 3D format.
Comments
1) Character Progression - most AAA mmos, even the bad ones, tend to have much better character progression (skills and stats) than single player RPGs or PvP only games.
2) Character Ownership - With the amount of customisation available in MMOs, you end up feeling much more attached to your character than you do in PvP-only games like dota or lol.
3) Persistent world / servers - I don't know about the rest of the pvp community, but in every MMO I've played that had PvP, the world / server community adds an extra dimension to pvp. I look forwards to fighting specific people. I feel proud if I manage to kill a particularly well known skilled pvper. I push harder to capture keeps for my side. You don't get this in most pvp-only games.
4) Combat Style - sure, pvp-only games tend to be better balanced than MMOs but usually at the expense of deep combat. MMOs can offer much more interesting combat, even if it is unbalanced. The large scale combat also tends to open up better grouping options and tactics.
5) IP - The IP is one of the biggest draws for me when picking a game. MMOs are often the only place where I can find RPG-style PvP for a particular IP and so I have no choice.
Going back to the OP, I agree that neither PvPers or PvEers should be "forced" to participate in the activity they don't enjoy. However, i feel there isn't enough crossover between the two playstyles and that both communities end up segregated from one another which isn't good for the long term health of the game.
I'd like to see both horizontal gear progression at endgame as well as de-segregation. So, for example, the best pvp gear should be comparable to the best pve gear which should be comparable to the best crafted gear. This would give players 3 different routes to getting the best gear, so they can choose the one they most prefer. It would also allow players to switch playstyle without requiring a massive upfront time investment.
For example, when I was playing SW:TOR, my guild was primarily PvE focused. We had tons of good players, completed all the raids on nightmare mode and everyone was decked out in best pve gear. However, only a few of us PvPed regularly. For the rest of the raiders, they would only want to pvp once a week or once a fortnight. However, without having already leveled up in pvp, they had no gear and no access to it without spending 100+ hours pvping. This meant pvp for them was never enjoyable so they just stopped bothering and often just logged out. This is bad for the guild (bored players at endgame with nothing to do), bad for pvp (barrier for entry too high, so community dwindles over time) and bad for the game (players eventually quit).
Like WoW as a Theme Park, EVE was the only model that ever even came close to this, but it too is an anomaly in it's own way.
I doubt very much that anyone will ever repeat on what made EVE a success. And even then, the game is showing signs of aging.
No game does pve with so many marvel characters in an action combat setting better than Marvel Heroes. If there is such a single player game (unless you go back to the ancient MUA), let me know and I will play it.
If you can pass the whole PvE side and play only PvP, there's no point for having PvE and you should redesign your game immediately, best shot would be MOBA or similar.
If you can pass the whole PvP side and play only PvE, you have used your design resources for a mini game, at best, to please a minority that was not really interested in your game in the first place.
There should always be some connection between these two playstyles. If that's not the case, go back to drawing board and think again.
The adjective "best" applies to the word "example" ... not SWTOR.
"This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Conversely, by definition you can only play pvp with other players. A pvp game can also include the various aspects of an rpg you listed above, and that type of game is ideally suited to the framework of an mmo.
I liked the system in SWTOR where important quest areas are instanced so there's no griefing in those.
Is massively multiplayer suited to PvP? Of course it is. For a pure PvP MMO you only have to look at Planetside. But that doesn't mean it isn't suited to PvE gameplay. In fact, looking at the MMO genre as a whole, it's obvious that PvE works very well in MMO's.
Some MMO players like to do these things called Raids. You know, those encounters that require more than a few players in a co-op game. In recent years raid sizes have become smaller but you can still see 25 man raids in most MMO's today. Not that long ago it was 40 man, and a few short years before that the numbers weren't restricted at all. Today with GW2 we're starting to see that kind of play return with their dynamic events.
Some people like co-operative gameplay that requires large numbers to take on World Bosses. There be Dragons! Some people like the idea of playing in a virtual world where they can create things like player towns, RIP SWG! Some people like big open worlds where they can go and meet lots of other players and play together and go and kill stuff, explore, craft items and just generally be part of something BIG without the hassle of looking over their shoulder every minute.
I could just as easily say that MMO's are unsuited to any form of PvP because class balance always fucks it up and you should just go and play FPS games for PvP. I'd be talking utter BS if I did but it has about as much validity as the extremely biased argument you present.
The truth is that Massively Multiplayer games can be used for whatever the developer wants. PvE, PvP, basket weaving, drinking contests, strange dances, making rude gestures and blowing raspberries. They can have it all, or they can have some of it. Nobody forces you to play a game that has PvE in it. If you don't like it, then don't play it.
^Truth
"This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."
What game has that slow of beginning leveling?
If devs want to cater to those who don't want to put in the time, i don't see how that is your business.
Too bad Warhammer Online and Shadowbane closed down, both had PvP that you could level on without ever having to do PvE stuff.
When you're defending a status quo, you need to be sure your position is justified. Yours isn't.
To understand why, imagine if Battlefield required 5 hours of PVE before you could PVP. Or LoL or TF2 or SC2 or Street Fighter or any other major PVP game. Sounds stupid, right? Well it's the exact same thing with MMORPG PVP.
If there was a purpose to it, that'd be one thing. But those games I mentioned don't have issues with bots, so obviously bots aren't the reason (nevermind the fact that botting PVE is much easier than botting PVP.) It's not like that gets any game out of having secure code of course; even the ones with 5 hours of PVE need to be secured against cheaters.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
also you can't compare a fps with a MMORPG or a Moba, each one have one thing with is the basic of each other, fps don't have lvl, and if they do normally don't change any stats in game and normally is just to unlock some weapons or skins with in the end have the same stats as lvl 1 weapons, or in BF some weapon ahve a better fire rate when is weak on damage or have too much recoil and so on, mobas like to get close to the player skill and fast reaction, mmorpg is roll of dices or you think all that % we normally use to see combat is just a number?
another thing MMORPG was supose to work almost like the pen and paper but without the hasle of trying to get together 4-6 people to play it. when a fps is just pop in for some rounds and be done.
if you don't like MMORPGs and want to pvp right away there is games for that already, but now asking for MMORPG change what they are to cather you wish to pvp without doing anything else don't work and you know it, all devs who did this become or a niche game or closed doors
WTB C.O.D. Fantasy style.