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New Forbes Article: Star Citizen may not be a scam but feels like a cult

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  • MrMelGibsonMrMelGibson Member EpicPosts: 3,034
    White Knights are certainly cultish in behavior.  I've seen plenty of such White Knights defend games well past the point of sanity.  They often feel a bond to the developers that will blind them to legit criticism.  LOTRO white knights come to mind.
    You're right, I would also like to add Trion fans.... we know which ones ;-)
  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Member EpicPosts: 6,130
    Wizardry said:
    1 the scam:I think they and others are considering that term based only on weather there will be a game.I have no doubt there will be a game but Chris has still conducted this business like a scam.
    The reason it was a 2014 prediction was because the game was very shallow,they had a small team and really not much more than a fast Eve part 2.

    The vision of this game is not a 100+ million dollar game ,MAYBE a 40 million at best,so does he keep going for more supporters money?This is not a finished product worth profiting form,the whole purpose of crowd funding was to get enough to make the game,not to keep taking free handouts far and above what the game needs.It only now needs more than 40 million which i believe is still over valuing this game,is because of mismanagement,terrible spending.

    2 The Cult :Well this is like everything else we see in life,for some off reason people like to find their own niche to cling on to,even if they think or know something else is better,they want to feel special in their choices.
    That is how you get people clinging to Punk Rock like it is some real amazing music or then Rap or all the other made up genres,people just need to feel different and special.

    So yeah,it was old school to just hop in and play Eve,better to be a part of something new and "pretend" you have a part in it.I am not so sure the supporters are doing this because they  believe or want a great game or lean more towards they to be able to say "See i told you so".

    Personally i look at things realistically,i saw a VERY cheap game vision,one that was suppose to take very little money and i believe even Chris never expected this support.Once the money kept rolling in ,he decided to find excuses and new ways to prolong this,keep adding ideas even if they already have more than enough money,we will keep grinding more out of careless spenders and that is where the scam comes in.

    I can't disagree with you that the scope of the game has ballooned. I'd also love to believe that's the fault of Chris, but it's really not, it's the fault of people dropping money in the bucket. I can't fault him, though. I mean this "dream" isn't new, it's the same dream he had for Freelancer way back when. The fact he's been able to fund it through crowd funding is crazy. I agree, I don't think he even believed it would explode like this. 

    That at being said, I can't say this isn't a 40 million dollar game. I can't say it's not a 80 million dollar game. When you consider that SWTOR took 300 million to make, or GTA took over 100 million to make, it really isn't hard to believe that this game could take 100 million to make. Could it have been made more efficiently? Probably. Could it have been made more inexpensively? Sure. Look at ED as an example. NOW before we go down that route, let's accept the fact that ED took probably 30 million+ to make. They ran an IPO following the KS campaign that now sits with a market cap of 84 million. Let's also remember that the single player campaign was stripped and ED was basically released as a open universe space sim. Could this be what 40 million gets you? Would SC have been better off to go this avenue? Maybe. However, to assume it's a 40 million dollar game, especially when they bought an engine, tore it apart and rebuilt it for something it wasn't intended to do, maybe 100 million isn't entirely crazy. Also, we don't know what's left in the bank, so what we have right now could be a 60 million or 70 million dollar game. Not saying that's not crazy, either, but I don't think they're sitting on a stack of cash either.

    Crazkanuk

    ----------------
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    Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
    Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
    Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
    Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
    ----------------

  • IsilithTehrothIsilithTehroth Member RarePosts: 616
    reeereee said:
    Almost no one was alleging it was a full on scam.  It was the combination of Roberts inability to manage money combined with his inability to limit feature creep that would theoretically cause the project to run out of money long before it could be finished. 

    What these people seem to have failed to account for is that ship sales would not only continue at pace but increase dramatically the more the project is criticized. 

    Until ship sales slow Roberts has a near limitless source of funding so even if he is poorly managing money the project will continue.


    Oddly enough some of the criticism sounds very similar to the pre-launch criticism of SWTOR for allegedly spending a large portion of it's enormous budget on voice acting.
    And we seen what happened with SWTOR. 

    MurderHerd

  • reeereeereeereee Member UncommonPosts: 1,636
    reeereee said:
    Almost no one was alleging it was a full on scam.  It was the combination of Roberts inability to manage money combined with his inability to limit feature creep that would theoretically cause the project to run out of money long before it could be finished. 

    What these people seem to have failed to account for is that ship sales would not only continue at pace but increase dramatically the more the project is criticized. 

    Until ship sales slow Roberts has a near limitless source of funding so even if he is poorly managing money the project will continue.


    Oddly enough some of the criticism sounds very similar to the pre-launch criticism of SWTOR for allegedly spending a large portion of it's enormous budget on voice acting.
    And we seen what happened with SWTOR. 
    Only all the speculation about voice acting turned out to be wrong.  It was the engine that ate up all that budget and limited the game on so many fronts.  Non-celebrity voice acting is actually very inexpensive. 
  • bruevitzbruevitz Member UncommonPosts: 57
    edited December 2015
    Well its definetly a clickbait article. It is hilarious to read, how the author could expect no retaliation from the, so called, cultist, if the title itself is so provocative. Whenever you put in your 'hard earned' money into something that you could only 'dream of' and 'hope to see', you will, of course, be invested in it. Imagine you went through all 9 to 12 years of your live (9 hours every monday to friday) dedicating it to school, only to be told, you will only be making minimum wage and paying of loans. Could you be expected to feel positive and not felt provoked after hearing such comments?

    I do not think SC or whatever CR and CIG doing with respect of their business plan can be considered a scam. Everyone knew the status from the start. No product ready off the shelf. It is explicitly said that it is in development/kickstarter. Also, they have shown a progress towards achieving the goals.

    However, if somehow, they failed to deliver a product in which, the buyers or backers are unable to be 'satisfied' with or not in the perspective of they are led to believe they will get, and can not get a refund, then you might get a legal case. My best guess is, it will be a borderline fraud, if any.

    The biggest concern that most people have is whether they have enough money to complete the game as they advertised or promised. As evident by the way CIG is promoting their line of product of concept ship, their finance/budget health is alarming. It is very unusual business practice, certainly not your conventional acceptable practice of 'low risk' business move.
    Post edited by bruevitz on
  • vadio123vadio123 Member UncommonPosts: 593
    after i see 100m mark i think people still dump money in ?
    dont sure its good or bad

     but i avoid , if this game release i look 
    but for now i recomend everyone SKIP ALL EARLY ACCESS / Beta / Alpha / pre Alpha
    This game market so SICK!
  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 19,332
    Remember when i said imo it is a 40 million game that is by NORMAL standards.This 40 million is suppose to be worth anywhere from 80-120.

    SWTOR is a far different game,it does not take any effort at all to make a space game which is predominantly empty space with 1-2 constant texture pasted on the 4 walls.

    Also MOST of the design is what i would have expected from day 1,the only added cost seemed to be Squadron 42 and his over spending on what he called "the perfect animation sequences"or better animations than people are used to seeing.

    I don't follow or dissect the game that closely but what was Chris pitching for added cost on Squadron?I mean they post the cost of every edition to the game right.

    I might also add that on the topic of mismanagement,Chris was the one that said they needed those extra offices,the game needed it.Then he went on to back up that statement with it made it easier to bring in the talent they needed etc etc.So what happens when he closes down those offices and reroutes employees,is that not like saying ok we did something wrong and now the game will suffer,but it will at least be less costly for me.

    Remember i never once said this game would not make it out,i always believed it would,i just see a way over hyped average game costing way more than it should.We are not even at the finishing point yet either,this 100 million might end up 120+ million,what is that 200-300+ million worth of development money?That was Chris making that pitch,the money would be worth a lot more by removing the middle men and investors.

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • GinazGinaz Member RarePosts: 2,558
    Sovrath said:

    Having said that it wouldn't surprise me if there were some "ultra nerds" who were emptying out their bank accounts because they just don't realize that someday they will actually need a retirement fund.
    There are.  Some people have essentially ruined their lives and destroyed their marriages and relationships because of the money they've spent on SC.

    http://forums.f13.net/index.php?topic=22591.msg1349886#msg1349886

    Is a man not entitled to the herp of his derp?

    Remember, I live in a world where juggalos and yugioh players are real things.

  • bennylongbennylong Member UncommonPosts: 100
    $100 million to a guy that doesn't know how to handle money, if that isn't a cult, I don't know what is.

    It's like giving all that money to that McQuaid guy to make Vanguard and he blew it all by hiring his friends and family and other stuff.
  • BrenelaelBrenelael Member UncommonPosts: 3,821
    Wizardry said:

    Also MOST of the design is what i would have expected from day 1,the only added cost seemed to be Squadron 42 and his over spending on what he called "the perfect animation sequences"or better animations than people are used to seeing.
    I think you have that completely backwards Wiz. SQ42 was the original game pitched in the beginning. The Persistent Universe was the 2 million stretch goal if I remember correctly. He always intended to release the Persistent Universe eventually but the original game was always SQ42. In the original plan the PU would have came possibly years after SQ42. More money just meant he could work on both at the same time which is exactly what they are doing.

    Bren

    while(horse==dead)
    {
    beat();
    }

  • BrenicsBrenics Member RarePosts: 1,939
    Ginaz said:
    Sovrath said:

    Having said that it wouldn't surprise me if there were some "ultra nerds" who were emptying out their bank accounts because they just don't realize that someday they will actually need a retirement fund.
    There are.  Some people have essentially ruined their lives and destroyed their marriages and relationships because of the money they've spent on SC.

    http://forums.f13.net/index.php?topic=22591.msg1349886#msg1349886

    These are strange times we live in, very strange!
    I'm not perfect but I'm always myself!

    Star Citizen – The Extinction Level Event


    4/13/15 > ELE has been updated look for 16-04-13.

    http://www.dereksmart.org/2016/04/star-citizen-the-ele/

    Enjoy and know the truth always comes to light!

  • GinazGinaz Member RarePosts: 2,558
    Brenics said:
    Ginaz said:
    Sovrath said:

    Having said that it wouldn't surprise me if there were some "ultra nerds" who were emptying out their bank accounts because they just don't realize that someday they will actually need a retirement fund.
    There are.  Some people have essentially ruined their lives and destroyed their marriages and relationships because of the money they've spent on SC.

    http://forums.f13.net/index.php?topic=22591.msg1349886#msg1349886

    These are strange times we live in, very strange!
    I've spent way too much money on video games (damn you founders packs) but there's no way I'd spend thousands, or tens of thousands, of dollars on a game.  I don't drink, smoke, gamble or use drugs so video games are pretty much the only thing I waste my money and I don't spend what I can't afford.

    Is a man not entitled to the herp of his derp?

    Remember, I live in a world where juggalos and yugioh players are real things.

  • jcrg99jcrg99 Member UncommonPosts: 723
    Brenelael said:
    Wizardry said:

    Also MOST of the design is what i would have expected from day 1,the only added cost seemed to be Squadron 42 and his over spending on what he called "the perfect animation sequences"or better animations than people are used to seeing.
    I think you have that completely backwards Wiz. SQ42 was the original game pitched in the beginning. The Persistent Universe was the 2 million stretch goal if I remember correctly. He always intended to release the Persistent Universe eventually but the original game was always SQ42. In the original plan the PU would have came possibly years after SQ42. More money just meant he could work on both at the same time which is exactly what they are doing.

    Bren
    The original game was Squadron 42 and the Persistent Universe as you can read from the original description here (there is other of their original website, if you search for the archive version, very similar and a even worst - with more deceptive claims):

    https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/cig/star-citizen/description

    There was no mention about PU been a "stretch goal". In fact they achieved their objectives very fast when the game was been described as SQ42 + PU, with more marketing and answers involving the PU than SQ42 from the start. They only said if did not achieve the target, which was 2 million dollars, they would make one piece at a time, starting with SQ42, but with the money achieved would be able to make both. But there was no mention of the PU as a "stretch goal".

    Basically they told that the project would get a green light with 2 million dollars and that would mean that game description becoming true (SQ42 plus PU). But as their campaign was in their own website, initially, they tranquilized people saying that if not achieving 2m, would make SQ42 at least.

    In the end they achieved 6.2 million dollars and kept the same promise of schedule for both,  2 years, worst case 3. The common sense remained until 6 months after delayed the DFM release. Only then, started to change, and slightly, still with promises of almost the full game released by now, while they were already sitting way above the 25 million mark.

    So, all this talking about "obviously would take longer" and 2016/17 release started when was becoming simply impossible to claim a full release by this year, or even most of their basic features.

    And yes. Recently Roberts tried to escape of some responsibilities caused by his original promises, by using a webpage created months later of the original funding campaign, to pretend that was advertised in that way in the past (which would be a sorcery since that page did not exist before, but who cares when the point is to deceive press or who jumped in the bandwagon later), then, claiming/stating that PU was like a stretch goal. This is actually one of the proof that demonstrates how shady and deceptive that guy is. Still, some uninformed people playing the neutral role to sound "reasonable" and not "extreme" and fans always defending whatever attitude of CR, love to claim that no proof for wrong doing exists. Apparently, only if Roberts kill some children at street such reasonable people will consider him not reliable and a no go for investors.
  • FrodoFraginsFrodoFragins Member EpicPosts: 6,050
    edited December 2015
    reeereee said:
    reeereee said:
    Almost no one was alleging it was a full on scam.  It was the combination of Roberts inability to manage money combined with his inability to limit feature creep that would theoretically cause the project to run out of money long before it could be finished. 

    What these people seem to have failed to account for is that ship sales would not only continue at pace but increase dramatically the more the project is criticized. 

    Until ship sales slow Roberts has a near limitless source of funding so even if he is poorly managing money the project will continue.


    Oddly enough some of the criticism sounds very similar to the pre-launch criticism of SWTOR for allegedly spending a large portion of it's enormous budget on voice acting.
    And we seen what happened with SWTOR. 
    Only all the speculation about voice acting turned out to be wrong.  It was the engine that ate up all that budget and limited the game on so many fronts.  Non-celebrity voice acting is actually very inexpensive. 
    Not quite.  After release, Bioware massively cut back on voice overs and got rid of class based stories and thus the expensive voice overs (in both time and money) per class.  It made leveling more fun but it wasn't money wisely spent in retrospect.
  • jesteralwaysjesteralways Member RarePosts: 2,560
    edited December 2015
    Nanfoodle said:
    Im still shocked 100'000 people forked out 100 mill for a game that has no promise to deliver. A game studio that has yet to ever make a single game. From a guy that from what I have read, has not even run a company before. Im not sure what that says about the state of mind of gamers today. Are we so crazed to find a game worth playing we are willing to make this kind of leap of faith? Scary times I think. Wont be getting my money. 
    It is not worse than spending 100$ per month in swtor.

    Boobs are LIFE, Boobs are LOVE, Boobs are JUSTICE, Boobs are mankind's HOPES and DREAMS. People who complain about boobs have lost their humanity.

  • evgen88evgen88 Member UncommonPosts: 120
    Nanfoodle said:
    Im still shocked 100'000 people forked out 100 mill for a game that has no promise to deliver. A game studio that has yet to ever make a single game. From a guy that from what I have read, has not even run a company before. Im not sure what that says about the state of mind of gamers today. Are we so crazed to find a game worth playing we are willing to make this kind of leap of faith? Scary times I think. Wont be getting my money. 
    I'm kind of shocked how many established game companies make piles of crap and try to swindle people out of money. Star Citizen isn't my thing, but saying only established companies can make good games is not very accurate. What did Blizzard do before Warcraft: Orcs vs Humans? In my arrogant opinion (being honest here XD) any game you pay money for, even ones you have tried and are released is a risk. So I don't really see much of a difference.
  • bullymaysbullymays Member UncommonPosts: 17
    Nanfoodle said:
    Im still shocked 100'000 people forked out 100 mill for a game that has no promise to deliver. A game studio that has yet to ever make a single game. From a guy that from what I have read, has not even run a company before. Im not sure what that says about the state of mind of gamers today. Are we so crazed to find a game worth playing we are willing to make this kind of leap of faith? Scary times I think. Wont be getting my money. 
    It is not worse than spending 100$ per month in swtor.
    You can play swtor.  I don't, but a lot can
  • jesteralwaysjesteralways Member RarePosts: 2,560
    bullymays said:
    Nanfoodle said:
    Im still shocked 100'000 people forked out 100 mill for a game that has no promise to deliver. A game studio that has yet to ever make a single game. From a guy that from what I have read, has not even run a company before. Im not sure what that says about the state of mind of gamers today. Are we so crazed to find a game worth playing we are willing to make this kind of leap of faith? Scary times I think. Wont be getting my money. 
    It is not worse than spending 100$ per month in swtor.
    You can play swtor.  I don't, but a lot can
      people are playing star citizen too.

    Boobs are LIFE, Boobs are LOVE, Boobs are JUSTICE, Boobs are mankind's HOPES and DREAMS. People who complain about boobs have lost their humanity.

  • tawesstawess Member EpicPosts: 4,227
    Cult-like.... yes

    Cult... No

    Then again.... Try discussing music with "real" fans of "insert artist" or heaven forbid.... discuss sport with sports fans.... 

    It is sort of built in to the whole concept of belonging and investing. 


    This have been a good conversation

  • tom_goretom_gore Member UncommonPosts: 2,001
    There's more cult-like behaviour from the fans of this game than I have seen for a long, long time.
    It's funny to see so many people in denial. Clouded, deluded (and soon to be poor) sycophants.
    How does that work? The people who have pledged their money to SC are already poor if they're ever going to be, because the money has been handed to CIG already.

    Most of the backers are just regular gamers who have shelled up money for a game up-front. Like a preorder but with some risks involved. The worst case scenario for them is that they don't get that game, but as they've already paid the money they won't be any more "poor".

    Or do you think there are lots of guys who have taken actual bank loans to buy ships and then hope to resell them for profit when the game launches?

  • rodarinrodarin Member EpicPosts: 2,611
    If the game really does get made what does it matter? Other than the 'investors' being able to say "I told you so". A few months or a year after it is released it will be like every other game ever made....dead. Other than the few rabid fans who wont quit until they turn the servers off.

    Also love the term 'investor'. What do you get for it? Anything actually tangible in the real world? Will you ever?

    Lotro life time subscribers were more investors than the new age pay for alpha types, and a lot of people bought lotro lifetime subs after release. But they have surely gotten real world advantages from that 'investment' which wasnt even spun that way.

    These games and the defending of the money spent on them is the saddest of social commentary of all time. Not to get on a soap box but especially at this time of year when people are not only citing the money spent but basically bragging about it. Take a look at all the REAL needs in society. Kickstarters and crowdfunding really bring this to light because people voluntarily donate money to these things. For something that is generally little more than an idea written down on a napkin.

    Either way When I saw the video of the gathering or whatever, cult was definitely the first thing I thought of. Too bad none of that was cited in the article. And another aspect of 'cultish' behavior is to think that by being a member of some group or organization you will get special unforeseen rewards that nonmembers wont get. Thats why cults work because they feed into the whole self entitlement part of humanity, and as we all know that part is at an all time high.

    Star Citizen will be something, it wont be as bad as the detractors think (hope) nor will it be remotely what the people who have given money to it want it to be either.

    But like I always said its much easier to scam someone than it is to convince them they have been scammed. So if SC doesnt make a single other advancement and just makes the whatever that thing they have is now playable and let everyone pay it I am sure most people will reconcile that they got 'something' for their money. So they werent scammed.
  • jmcdermottukjmcdermottuk Member RarePosts: 1,571
    I think this journalist is a fully paid up member of "The Cult of Jump on the Fucking Bandwagon".

    It used to be WoW bashing but it looks like the newest popular target to attack is Star Citizen. People who are still investing in SC may be misguided, they may be right but they aren't a cult. The guy is obviously an idiot if he can't tell the difference between a cult and people who are just passionate about games or about this one game in particular.

    It's interesting that we have a crowdfunded game that's managed to raise 100 million dollars and all the journo's can talk about are negatives.
  • rpmcmurphyrpmcmurphy Member EpicPosts: 3,502
    tom_gore said:
    There's more cult-like behaviour from the fans of this game than I have seen for a long, long time.
    It's funny to see so many people in denial. Clouded, deluded (and soon to be poor) sycophants.
    How does that work? The people who have pledged their money to SC are already poor if they're ever going to be, because the money has been handed to CIG already.

    Most of the backers are just regular gamers who have shelled up money for a game up-front. Like a preorder but with some risks involved. The worst case scenario for them is that they don't get that game, but as they've already paid the money they won't be any more "poor".

    Or do you think there are lots of guys who have taken actual bank loans to buy ships and then hope to resell them for profit when the game launches?


    It's not meant be serious.... I'm just having a bit of fun at the expense of a certain group of people that like to spend silly amounts of money on virtual spaceships.
  • tawesstawess Member EpicPosts: 4,227
    I think this journalist is a fully paid up member of "The Cult of Jump on the Fucking Bandwagon".
    .

    Because magazines has never jumped on and fanned controversy to sell issues... =P


    This have been a good conversation

  • tom_goretom_gore Member UncommonPosts: 2,001
    tom_gore said:
    There's more cult-like behaviour from the fans of this game than I have seen for a long, long time.
    It's funny to see so many people in denial. Clouded, deluded (and soon to be poor) sycophants.
    How does that work? The people who have pledged their money to SC are already poor if they're ever going to be, because the money has been handed to CIG already.

    Most of the backers are just regular gamers who have shelled up money for a game up-front. Like a preorder but with some risks involved. The worst case scenario for them is that they don't get that game, but as they've already paid the money they won't be any more "poor".

    Or do you think there are lots of guys who have taken actual bank loans to buy ships and then hope to resell them for profit when the game launches?


    It's not meant be serious.... I'm just having a bit of fun at the expense of a certain group of people that like to spend silly amounts of money on virtual spaceships.
    Well one could argue that it's silly whether or not the game is released, of course. I've purchased a basic 40 USD pack myself that comes with a ship and lifetime insurance for said ship. Was one of the original Kickstarter backers. Never upgraded my pledge and never going to. If the game releases and is good, I might consider spending more money on the long term.
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