Nah, just typical goon trolling/gibberish...easy to ignore :P
Then please stop posting in this thread. Wtf is this garbage?
It shows what PvP games are really all about, and no, it's not about more realism and immersion. It's about cowards hiding behind a screen to they can bully other defenseless players without any risk of direct retaliation like there would be if they acted like asshats in "real life". -Jean-Luc_Picard
Life itself is a game. So why shouldn't your game be ruined? - justmemyselfandi
The same thing can happen in a game where economics can be cornered by groups/guilds. Or any system where there's an ability to dominate that system. I think a good game needs 2 things.
Change, randomness. When players know there where's and when's, strong player communities can control that and eventually you can end up with one last uber-power controlling it all.
Added risk of loss as growth happens. If you're on top, it should be harder to stay on top than it is for others to close in on you. This keeps the competition flowing and a constant possibility of change at the top. But it's not just that others can grow to meet you, you and anyone else needs to be faced with losing ground from where you were so that there's not a log jam at the top.
What EVE really needs at this point is a giant plasma storm that sweeps through null sec destroying everything in it's wake; Stations, POS's, ships, material, Titans... you name it... gone. Reset null sec and then let the gold rush begin again.
This makes sense, and I think it would give you your reset condition. I think it would be great if they had NPC factions that would police the situation too, and not necessarily be unbeatable. A heavy NPC faction attacking a superior Player Faction would provide an opening for opportunists.
Another thing that could work would be resources that appear and go away from different areas (if they don't already have this) so that there are droughts and plagues upon the crops of interstellar fortune. If no one can get Metametal for a month or two, things will get interesting. Having actual scarcity, or NPC unrest could be a good way to put limits on the Roman Empire of space as well.
MMORPG players are often like Hobbits: They don't like Adventures
When CCP was designing and creating EVE Online they had a few games that they were basing it off of. The game that EVE most resembles, and if you don't think so you can still play it today to see for yourself, is Tradewars 2002.
The problem is that Tradewars had win conditions and a reset timer. Essentially we would start a Tradewars game and we would have three months to build an empire and attempt to crush other people's empires. The win conditions were based on the amount of territory and wealth that a player controlled at the end of the timer. Then we'd erase everything and start over.
One of the many problems with EVE is that we've had a clear winner for several years now, but there aren't any built-in reset conditions. There's no way to kick everyone out of null sec, donate their ISK to the four empires and start over.
Not only is there a clear winner at this point, but they control the wealthiest parts of space and every single day they become more entrenched in their positions. Someone attacking them may be able to lose and replace 10 titans, the CFC can lose and replace 200 titans. They are space rich beyond most players imaginations.
What EVE really needs at this point is a giant plasma storm that sweeps through null sec destroying everything in it's wake; Stations, POS's, ships, material, Titans... you name it... gone. Reset null sec and then let the gold rush begin again.
As I understand it CCP already has seriously discussed a Plan B.
Involves a fresh start server with some rule variants.
Should not assume there is nothing that can't be considered.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Non-Sandbox Games I have played: Shoot things, loot, turn in quest, repeat
Sandbox games I have played: Built a home to protect myself from mobs Built a farm so I would not have to scavenge for days Grew trees so I could build a boat to get the best fish around Explored randomly the world which lead to finding wonderous treasures, other peoples hide outs, and intense trouble found.
Non-MMO sandbox games: built space ships so I could mine more ore to manufacture into better ships so I could explore more. Fortified a house I found quickly before night came so the zombies would not tear it all down. Designed a small navy of diffferent kinds of boats by my own design, one for scouting, one for tanking and one for gathering oil.
more I am sure but that is an example
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
The best thing that could happen in EVE right now would be a GOON civil war. That or a few high up in the GOON heirarchy decide to leave and steal all their shit. A nice bit of embezzlement would do wonders for the game.
We need some sort of internal crisis that makes them turn on each other.
The best thing that could happen in EVE right now would be a GOON civil war. That or a few high up in the GOON heirarchy decide to leave and steal all their shit. A nice bit of embezzlement would do wonders for the game.
We need some sort of internal crisis that makes them turn on each other.
Fingers crossed.
They cant be having much fun sitting there having nothing to do or no conflict to play.. They should very purposely break up, engineer a new world condition for conflict to once again emerge. So that they can have the glorious fun of taking over the universe from scratch again.
OR have it that some dumbdumb sneezed while too close to a passing blackhole and so caused the entire universe to blow up, and put up a new galaxy map with new star charts and links and let 'er rip.
As I understand it CCP already has seriously discussed a Plan B.
Involves a fresh start server with some rule variants.
Should not assume there is nothing that can't be considered.
There was some speculation that player owned gates will lead to “new space”. As far as i can tell, Ccp has not confirmed or denied the speculation.
It shows what PvP games are really all about, and no, it's not about more realism and immersion. It's about cowards hiding behind a screen to they can bully other defenseless players without any risk of direct retaliation like there would be if they acted like asshats in "real life". -Jean-Luc_Picard
Life itself is a game. So why shouldn't your game be ruined? - justmemyselfandi
I really want to avoid the thread being too eve centric though. Surely there are other sandbox mmos? Anyone know what went on with archage? If there is a dominant group? I know lineage1 has one and they were at the top for a long time.
It shows what PvP games are really all about, and no, it's not about more realism and immersion. It's about cowards hiding behind a screen to they can bully other defenseless players without any risk of direct retaliation like there would be if they acted like asshats in "real life". -Jean-Luc_Picard
Life itself is a game. So why shouldn't your game be ruined? - justmemyselfandi
One of the many problems with EVE is that we've had a clear winner for several years now, but there aren't any built-in reset conditions. There's no way to kick everyone out of null sec, donate their ISK to the four empires and start over.
Not only is there a clear winner at this point, but they control the wealthiest parts of space and every single day they become more entrenched in their positions. Someone attacking them may be able to lose and replace 10 titans, the CFC can lose and replace 200 titans. They are space rich beyond most players imaginations.
There is no winner.
The opposition has as many supers and titans, they just don't bother to sit in a 12hr lagfest like that B-R was.
I know how you believe the opposition was wiped out after that B-R fight, truth is that the vast majority was never used.
PL for example had a few hundred supercarriers and more then 100 titans not used. NCDOT for example had 3 maxed super fleets after they moved to LEM after that fight.
I had a titan and super in that same fight, both survived but my corp api showed that only 15% of the supers (incl titans) in the same TZ were in the fight. Shame on them+us for not using them all tbh. And I let them know how I felt about it when we moved and I saw all the supers and titans login. On the other side: we all have RL and families and I can not blame them if they do not jump into a fight which was decided by lag already.
I remember a few weeks prior in HED destroying a huge CFC capital fleet in the same manner as many never loaded and we were just turkey shooting them off the grid.
Even more ridiculous, 3 months after the fight, most lost titans and supercarriers were replaced either with the hull or through SRP. And I remember CFC claiming a hellcamp in N3, well, it was only Test, plus they moved most of their assets out before it happened. PL and NCDOT were basing a region away. SO yeah, do not believe anything your leadership tells you.
What you seem to miss is that many opponents laugh at goonswarm and the CFC for being quantity players, and not quality players.
Personally, I love to come to Deklein and farm thanatos' and hotdrop them with my black ops fleets or with roams through wormholes. I rather do that then blow up some TCU-SBU and lock a station for a while. I can still hear Grath/Manny or even Travis and Vince laugh on comms when we link our killmails.
For ISK: many of us have alts in the CFC or elsewhere, or base from npc stations in null. Personally I don't PVE, I plex all my accounts, and as far as I know in the corps I am in there are almost no poor guys.
Even worse: since the goons 'won' the war the carebearing in our alliance has even escalated more. And the opponent is supposed to have nothing? And we got the choice, so did Ncdot, take sov and go on daily defend timers when goons only commit at 4:1 odds or more and sit in lagfests or jump on fleets when we choose to and have gf. Not even talking about the Russians, they won't even undock and blueball you rather unless they are guaranteed a win.
So what's up with having sov? Moons? Don't need sov for that. The answer: supers and titan building. We have a alt corp in the CFC building supers in their own back yard, or even buy the hulls from them. And vice versa. Heck, I have a renter pve corp with friends in the CFC myself which my own ceo does not know anything about. I deliver as much doctrine ships to blues as to neuts/reds. How many dictors and dominix' I have put on Pure Blind and Deklein alliance orders...I don't keep a count.
And be honest: the vast riches of null are reserved for corp leaderships and alliance leaderships after they pay the alliance bills. The normal grunt does not see anything from that money other then srp and their alliance bill being paid. Ok, you get srped, so do the 'losing' alliances. Ok, you can do plexes in null, so do the 'losing' alliances. Ok, the CFC has many moons, surprise: so do the 'losing' alliances.
And as far as 'winning' goes:
You jump my 10M throw away fun roam ship with a 5-10M fit on it with 5 friends worth 200M in bigger hulls on a gatecamp when I am going back home after killing a lone ratter/miner in his pimped ship.
What happens? I kill 4 of you, the 5th kills me and you claim victory and mock me in local. Victory. The hostile is dead, he lost.
I chuckle behind my screens as I have just made you and your friends look pretty bad to the rest of EVE by killing 175M in ships with a 15M ship+fit.
The conclusion: this is a sandbox, this game cannot be won as everyone thinks different about winning conditions and goals why they play this game.
"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"
@Muke ; And this is the post that we all look forward to. The “grrr goons hate goons” post.
PL is on record in spending 12+ months to get back their titan fleet. The last replacement from b-r5 was announced on kugu. Rip kugu.
Goons have done many hellcamps but the most recent one had PGL go “it hurts” in their state of alliance thingy. vOv
Wtf is this isk efficiency/kill death ratio/ leet pvp stuff? I don't know if you know this, but Goons suck at eve. We are terrible at this game.
Look at your last paragraph. So you admit you fought alone with goons who were playing together and having a good time with friends. Yeah, not sure if you are the one looking good there. But hey, killboard is green so that's all that matters right?
Sorry we have more friends than you. It is an awful burden. /sarcasm
It shows what PvP games are really all about, and no, it's not about more realism and immersion. It's about cowards hiding behind a screen to they can bully other defenseless players without any risk of direct retaliation like there would be if they acted like asshats in "real life". -Jean-Luc_Picard
Life itself is a game. So why shouldn't your game be ruined? - justmemyselfandi
Yeah if it's sandboxes in general then "winning" means you have exhausted the fun in the game (perhaps temporarily). If this happened quick it was poor design in most cases, if it took a while it was normal satisfaction that was responsible.
MMORPG players are often like Hobbits: They don't like Adventures
Dunno about Eve, never played it. But in Shadowbane, I remember the Chinease (CN) started zerging everyone down and controlled most of the map, until every other guild got sick of them and allied up. Honestly it was pretty epic seeing so many of these guilds that fought each other daily, come together for a greater good, too bad most of these massive sieges where pretty much slideshows or crash fests. In Mortal Online, it was the same thing, a few alliances controlled the map until they got bored and their numbers dwindled, then an even bigger zerg came and took them out.
Dunno about Eve, never played it. But in Shadowbane, I remember the Chinease (CN) started zerging everyone down and controlled most of the map, until every other guild got sick of them and allied up. Honestly it was pretty epic seeing so many of these guilds that fought each other daily, come together for a greater good, too bad most of these massive sieges where pretty much slideshows or crash fests. In Mortal Online, it was the same thing, a few alliances controlled the map until they got bored and their numbers dwindled, then an even bigger zerg came and took them out.
Isn't that more about mega guilds and what not though? And it also, again, is indicative of a PvP endgame/eldergame/content design.
Player vs. Player has only one reward: Reinforcing one side by frustrating the other.
MMORPG players are often like Hobbits: They don't like Adventures
@nariusseldon ; It is not often where a group of players is considered invincible in a sandbox pvp game. So thought it might be interesting to discuss that.
Well, to this thread's credit I think the question can apply to any hypothetical sandbox, not just ones with PvP. IMO the answer = you shouldn't be able to win a sandbox. There can be a point that there is nothing to do but the developer should try to ensure they are ahead of the players with mechanics, not content. Horizontal progression is great for this.
In your specific example in a PvP sandbox where one faction has grown too big the reasonable options are stop playing or infiltrate and destroy from within (mentioned by @Daikuru). I think this phenomenon of building the biggest entity in a PvP is a hard thing to not want to do for dominance sake, similar to zerging in OWPvP.
Comments
It shows what PvP games are really all about, and no, it's not about more realism and immersion. It's about cowards hiding behind a screen to they can bully other defenseless players without any risk of direct retaliation like there would be if they acted like asshats in "real life". -Jean-Luc_Picard
Life itself is a game. So why shouldn't your game be ruined? - justmemyselfandi
I think a good game needs 2 things.
Once upon a time....
Another thing that could work would be resources that appear and go away from different areas (if they don't already have this) so that there are droughts and plagues upon the crops of interstellar fortune. If no one can get Metametal for a month or two, things will get interesting. Having actual scarcity, or NPC unrest could be a good way to put limits on the Roman Empire of space as well.
Involves a fresh start server with some rule variants.
Should not assume there is nothing that can't be considered.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
Shoot things, loot, turn in quest, repeat
Sandbox games I have played:
Built a home to protect myself from mobs
Built a farm so I would not have to scavenge for days
Grew trees so I could build a boat to get the best fish around
Explored randomly the world which lead to finding wonderous treasures, other peoples hide outs, and intense trouble found.
Non-MMO sandbox games:
built space ships so I could mine more ore to manufacture into better ships so I could explore more.
Fortified a house I found quickly before night came so the zombies would not tear it all down.
Designed a small navy of diffferent kinds of boats by my own design, one for scouting, one for tanking and one for gathering oil.
more I am sure but that is an example
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
We need some sort of internal crisis that makes them turn on each other.
Fingers crossed.
OR have it that some dumbdumb sneezed while too close to a passing blackhole and so caused the entire universe to blow up, and put up a new galaxy map with new star charts and links and let 'er rip.
It shows what PvP games are really all about, and no, it's not about more realism and immersion. It's about cowards hiding behind a screen to they can bully other defenseless players without any risk of direct retaliation like there would be if they acted like asshats in "real life". -Jean-Luc_Picard
Life itself is a game. So why shouldn't your game be ruined? - justmemyselfandi
Anyone know what went on with archage? If there is a dominant group?
I know lineage1 has one and they were at the top for a long time.
It shows what PvP games are really all about, and no, it's not about more realism and immersion. It's about cowards hiding behind a screen to they can bully other defenseless players without any risk of direct retaliation like there would be if they acted like asshats in "real life". -Jean-Luc_Picard
Life itself is a game. So why shouldn't your game be ruined? - justmemyselfandi
The opposition has as many supers and titans, they just don't bother to sit in a 12hr lagfest like that B-R was.
I know how you believe the opposition was wiped out after that B-R fight, truth is that the vast majority was never used.
PL for example had a few hundred supercarriers and more then 100 titans not used.
NCDOT for example had 3 maxed super fleets after they moved to LEM after that fight.
I had a titan and super in that same fight, both survived but my corp api showed that only 15% of the supers (incl titans) in the same TZ were in the fight.
Shame on them+us for not using them all tbh.
And I let them know how I felt about it when we moved and I saw all the supers and titans login. On the other side: we all have RL and families and I can not blame them if they do not jump into a fight which was decided by lag already.
I remember a few weeks prior in HED destroying a huge CFC capital fleet in the same manner as many never loaded and we were just turkey shooting them off the grid.
Even more ridiculous, 3 months after the fight, most lost titans and supercarriers were replaced either with the hull or through SRP.
And I remember CFC claiming a hellcamp in N3, well, it was only Test, plus they moved most of their assets out before it happened. PL and NCDOT were basing a region away. SO yeah, do not believe anything your leadership tells you.
What you seem to miss is that many opponents laugh at goonswarm and the CFC for being quantity players, and not quality players.
Personally, I love to come to Deklein and farm thanatos' and hotdrop them with my black ops fleets or with roams through wormholes. I rather do that then blow up some TCU-SBU and lock a station for a while.
I can still hear Grath/Manny or even Travis and Vince laugh on comms when we link our killmails.
For ISK: many of us have alts in the CFC or elsewhere, or base from npc stations in null. Personally I don't PVE, I plex all my accounts, and as far as I know in the corps I am in there are almost no poor guys.
Even worse: since the goons 'won' the war the carebearing in our alliance has even escalated more.
And the opponent is supposed to have nothing?
And we got the choice, so did Ncdot, take sov and go on daily defend timers when goons only commit at 4:1 odds or more and sit in lagfests or jump on fleets when we choose to and have gf.
Not even talking about the Russians, they won't even undock and blueball you rather unless they are guaranteed a win.
So what's up with having sov?
Moons? Don't need sov for that.
The answer: supers and titan building.
We have a alt corp in the CFC building supers in their own back yard, or even buy the hulls from them. And vice versa. Heck, I have a renter pve corp with friends in the CFC myself which my own ceo does not know anything about. I deliver as much doctrine ships to blues as to neuts/reds. How many dictors and dominix' I have put on Pure Blind and Deklein alliance orders...I don't keep a count.
And be honest: the vast riches of null are reserved for corp leaderships and alliance leaderships after they pay the alliance bills. The normal grunt does not see anything from that money other then srp and their alliance bill being paid.
Ok, you get srped, so do the 'losing' alliances.
Ok, you can do plexes in null, so do the 'losing' alliances.
Ok, the CFC has many moons, surprise: so do the 'losing' alliances.
And as far as 'winning' goes:
You jump my 10M throw away fun roam ship with a 5-10M fit on it with 5 friends worth 200M in bigger hulls on a gatecamp when I am going back home after killing a lone ratter/miner in his pimped ship.
What happens? I kill 4 of you, the 5th kills me and you claim victory and mock me in local. Victory. The hostile is dead, he lost.
I chuckle behind my screens as I have just made you and your friends look pretty bad to the rest of EVE by killing 175M in ships with a 15M ship+fit.
The conclusion: this is a sandbox, this game cannot be won as everyone thinks different about winning conditions and goals why they play this game.
"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"
And this is the post that we all look forward to. The “grrr goons hate goons” post.
PL is on record in spending 12+ months to get back their titan fleet. The last replacement from b-r5 was announced on kugu. Rip kugu.
Goons have done many hellcamps but the most recent one had PGL go “it hurts” in their state of alliance thingy. vOv
Wtf is this isk efficiency/kill death ratio/ leet pvp stuff? I don't know if you know this, but Goons suck at eve. We are terrible at this game.
Look at your last paragraph. So you admit you fought alone with goons who were playing together and having a good time with friends.
Yeah, not sure if you are the one looking good there. But hey, killboard is green so that's all that matters right?
Sorry we have more friends than you. It is an awful burden. /sarcasm
It shows what PvP games are really all about, and no, it's not about more realism and immersion. It's about cowards hiding behind a screen to they can bully other defenseless players without any risk of direct retaliation like there would be if they acted like asshats in "real life". -Jean-Luc_Picard
Life itself is a game. So why shouldn't your game be ruined? - justmemyselfandi
Player vs. Player has only one reward: Reinforcing one side by frustrating the other.
" Crush your enemies. See them driven before you. Hear the lamentations of their women. "
Well, to this thread's credit I think the question can apply to any hypothetical sandbox, not just ones with PvP. IMO the answer = you shouldn't be able to win a sandbox. There can be a point that there is nothing to do but the developer should try to ensure they are ahead of the players with mechanics, not content. Horizontal progression is great for this.
In your specific example in a PvP sandbox where one faction has grown too big the reasonable options are stop playing or infiltrate and destroy from within (mentioned by @Daikuru). I think this phenomenon of building the biggest entity in a PvP is a hard thing to not want to do for dominance sake, similar to zerging in OWPvP.