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WvW, Cyrodiil, whats some things that Guild Wars 2 and ElderScrollsOnline did right/ wrong?

MMOExposedMMOExposed Member RarePosts: 7,400
in The Pub at MMORPG.COM
WvW, Cyrodiil, whats some things that Guild Wars 2 and Elder Scrolls Online did right/ wrong?

Philosophy of MMO Game Design

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  • MMOExposedMMOExposed Member RarePosts: 7,400
    Hey I want some feedback on these two designs.
    share your good and bad for these please.

    Philosophy of MMO Game Design

  • nerovergilnerovergil Member UncommonPosts: 680
    edited December 2015
    hi bro. i was just about to discuss this same thing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! what a coincidence

    u know what im freaking hate about world pvp in teso?

    the fact that u need to walk kittening long journey just to get to the pvp area.

    teso pvp is huge, but to get to pvp area its too far!!! long walking!!! its stressful!!!!!

    just watching other player stream at twitch, walking to pvp area, is stressful itself (pvp) ( i own the game myself but too lazy to play because this long walking)

    gw2 did right in this case, the range of walking from base to the pvp area is not too much.

    gw2 wvw is more newbie friendly, you have commander tag, cho cho train (karma train, leveling in zerg)

    in teso, u type LFG (looking for groups!!!) nobody will response!!!!! they so elite they dont need u a newbie!!!! not to mention if u solo the game, u get 1 hit k.o by the elite so called veteran players

    in gw2 u see a commander tag and just follow them because they need more zerg!!

    plus leveling as an uplevels in gw2 is much easier compared to teso, in teso i conquer a keep, senty but the exp is not that much, very little i say!!!

    but in gw2 i can get from lv 2 to 80 so fast in gw2 because conquer a keep give so much exp. especially if u are tier 1 server (im blackgate)


  • Ender4Ender4 Member UncommonPosts: 2,247
    Neither did anything right to be honest.  Instanced PvP is awful.  PvP with no real impact is awful.  Both games PvP is just worthless.  Both games PvE are pretty poor too.  MMORPG are in such an awful state right now, it is just sad.
  • KiyorisKiyoris Member RarePosts: 2,130
    whats some things that Guild Wars 2 did wrong
    everything


  • nerovergilnerovergil Member UncommonPosts: 680
    Ender4 said:
    Neither did anything right to be honest.  Instanced PvP is awful.  PvP with no real impact is awful.  Both games PvP is just worthless.  Both games PvE are pretty poor too.  MMORPG are in such an awful state right now, it is just sad.
    what kind of impact do u want?
  • AxehiltAxehilt Member RarePosts: 10,504
    PVP quality is directly related to game depth for me.

    World PVP is shallow. It provides a trump card (population) which trumps everything else that might've been a deep interesting decision in PVP.  Instead of a variety of very skill-based factors, you have this one very strong factor deciding fights before they've even begun. 

    So the strange discussion of whether GW2/ESO's world PVP is "instanced" is fairly irrelevant, because neither leverages the advantages of instanced PVP (balanced population enforcement).  Both are functionally identical to world PVP: casual PVP with no enforcement of population, which results in shallow PVP largely (often entirely) decided by population.

    "What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver

  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 18,719
    Axehilt said:
    PVP quality is directly related to game depth for me.

    World PVP is shallow. It provides a trump card (population) which trumps everything else that might've been a deep interesting decision in PVP.  Instead of a variety of very skill-based factors, you have this one very strong factor deciding fights before they've even begun. 

    So the strange discussion of whether GW2/ESO's world PVP is "instanced" is fairly irrelevant, because neither leverages the advantages of instanced PVP (balanced population enforcement).  Both are functionally identical to world PVP: casual PVP with no enforcement of population, which results in shallow PVP largely (often entirely) decided by population.
    Sort of like real life don't you think? It's why stories about a few Spartans holding off hordes of Persians are still compelling thousands of years later.

    I was involved in a keep fight in ESO not long ago when ~ 40 of us held-off 100+ for about 3 hours. This PVP also provides epic fights like that. I'll take this type of fighting over little 20 vs. 20 scenarios with their scoreboards any day of the week. 
    "Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”

    ― Umberto Eco

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    ― CD PROJEKT RED

  • H0urg1assH0urg1ass Member EpicPosts: 2,380
    Iselin said:

    I was involved in a keep fight in ESO not long ago when ~ 40 of us held-off 100+ for about 3 hours. This PVP also provides epic fights like that. I'll take this type of fighting over little 20 vs. 20 scenarios with their scoreboards any day of the week. 
    As an EVE Online player, I know where you're coming from with this.  Holding off a larger force with a smaller one is what me and my corporation did for years, and it's exhilarating.

    In a game like TESO, however, I can't believe that this kind of fight you're describing is the norm.  I would rather expect it to be far from the norm; an extreme statistical outlier in fact.  The systems built into EVE that allow a smaller force to take on a larger force simply don't exist in TESO.  I would bet that 99.99% of the time, the larger force steamrolls the smaller force.

    Uninstanced PVP should be, come one, come all and whoever wins wins.  But instanced PVP, by virtue of the fact that it's instanced and set aside by the server for those particular players, should be more of a fair team situation.  20v20 or whatever.  I mean, fair is relative because some players are obviously better than others, but fair in the sense that the sides start with even numbers at least.
  • bcbullybcbully Member EpicPosts: 11,843
    H0urg1ass said:
    Iselin said:

    I was involved in a keep fight in ESO not long ago when ~ 40 of us held-off 100+ for about 3 hours. This PVP also provides epic fights like that. I'll take this type of fighting over little 20 vs. 20 scenarios with their scoreboards any day of the week. 
    As an EVE Online player, I know where you're coming from with this.  Holding off a larger force with a smaller one is what me and my corporation did for years, and it's exhilarating.

    In a game like TESO, however, I can't believe that this kind of fight you're describing is the norm.  I would rather expect it to be far from the norm; an extreme statistical outlier in fact.  The systems built into EVE that allow a smaller force to take on a larger force simply don't exist in TESO.  I would bet that 99.99% of the time, the larger force steamrolls the smaller force.

    Uninstanced PVP should be, come one, come all and whoever wins wins.  But instanced PVP, by virtue of the fact that it's instanced and set aside by the server for those particular players, should be more of a fair team situation.  20v20 or whatever.  I mean, fair is relative because some players are obviously better than others, but fair in the sense that the sides start with even numbers at least.
    It's quite the opposite. Organized groups of 16-24 steam roll 50+ on the regular. Groups of 8-12 kill numbers twice their size often. Playing in duos and trios I have completely shut down reinforcement lanes killing 5 here, 3 here, 8 there. 



  • AxehiltAxehilt Member RarePosts: 10,504
    Iselin said:
    Sort of like real life don't you think? It's why stories about a few Spartans holding off hordes of Persians are still compelling thousands of years later.

    I was involved in a keep fight in ESO not long ago when ~ 40 of us held-off 100+ for about 3 hours. This PVP also provides epic fights like that. I'll take this type of fighting over little 20 vs. 20 scenarios with their scoreboards any day of the week. 
    Yeah, real life is shallow PVP too. The vast majority of battles are one-sided fights won by accumulating shallow (but critical) advantages before the fight starts.  That's why for every epic Spartan battle, there are hundreds or thousands of forgettable slaughters.

    In a bad PVP game players don't experience that epic Spartan battle.  They experience the more common experience of one-sided slaughters, which are shallow and dull.

    In a good PVP game (where skill is the dominant or only factor) many battles will still be lopsided on account of skill being imbalanced, but essentially you've taken a 0.5% chance of a good fight and turned it into a 40% chance of a good fight.  Night and day difference.

    You seem to assume bad PVP is the only place where epic holdouts can happen.  It isn't.  In fact in Battlefront the other day I went on a ~15 killstreak while guarding an uplink against attacking Rebels with only 1-2 teammates floating in and out to help defend that particular point.  Any game pegged at the global pop cap still produces these localized pop imbalances, as the Battlefront scenario happened on a larger scale in Planetside 2.

    This extends to the times in GW2 and ESO where you actually see a three-way max-pop-capped instance.  From what I saw, this only happened very rarely in ESO, but actually seemed somewhat common in GW2.

    The reason, of course, is that when global pop is equal, any localized pop imbalances are the direct result of player decisions (and therefore are skill.)

    "What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver

  • filmoretfilmoret Member EpicPosts: 4,906
    Man some people are such close minded trolls.  I have spent a tremendous amount of time in both WVW games both as a solo player and as a guilded player.  Not just any guild but the top rated ones.  You can easily find fun in both parts if you take a little time to learn everything.  I'll start with ESO has sneaking and that added a whole new flavor to the word ambush.  GW2 has messed up some of their maps making them too pve oriented.  ESO made siege too strong.  Small man groups can do more in ESO because of the ability to hide and sneak.  Meanwhile GW2 scales the keep bosses to group size so a small group can take an undefended keep easily.  ESO does tend to have favorite builds that get you mad cuz they just don't die.  You are able to change campains in ESO which gives it a huge advantage over GW2.  It costs money to change in GW2 and a lot of people have been turned off because of empty maps or flooded maps.  GW2 rarely lags even during peak hours.  However ESO's lag problem during peak hours is unbearable.  It is avoided by changing maps but that doesn't always work and if you have a guild then they need to coordinate very well or they split up.  The GW2 community has teamspeak servers for each campaign that the community pays for and they are used for raiding and wvw.  To me there is no clear winner because they both are excellent when everything works the way it should.
    Are you onto something or just on something?
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 18,719
    Axehilt said:


    This extends to the times in GW2 and ESO where you actually see a three-way max-pop-capped instance.  From what I saw, this only happened very rarely in ESO, but actually seemed somewhat common in GW2.


    It happens pretty well everyday. Those huge cap imbalances would happen if they had more Cyrodiil campaigns and did happen shortly after launch when they overestimated how many they needed, but now they don't and 3 way maxed pop is quite common.

    Mind you, it's unlikely to happen at 3 AM but you can count on it every evening and all weekend long.

    And like Bcbully said above, those large zerg vs. zerg battles are only one of the things that happen there - small group fights are more fun and more frequent.
    "Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”

    ― Umberto Eco

    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 32,780
    edited December 2015
    Iselin said:

    I was involved in a keep fight in ESO not long ago when ~ 40 of us held-off 100+ for about 3 hours. This PVP also provides epic fights like that. I'll take this type of fighting over little 20 vs. 20 scenarios with their scoreboards any day of the week. 
    "I agree"

    I should say that I did actually enjoy the Warhammer battlegrounds, they were fun.

    But for me the best pvp were the Lineage 2 sieges.
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  • Viper482Viper482 Member LegendaryPosts: 4,099
    MMOExposed said:
    WvW, Cyrodiil, whats some things that Guild Wars 2 and Elder Scrolls Online did right/ wrong?
    I absolutely hate the "esports" factor. There should be no time limit or scores in war. Daoc is the only one that has gotten it right. The war should be a persistent neverending conflict between the same 3 sides at all times. You should also have your own static territory that belongs to you at all times. This is your land, and anyone who invades it dies for it, not for points but for pride. You should not be able to change sides or cross server. No server transfer, if you want to move reroll somewhere else.

    Just my opinion. More Daoc, less of this crap.
    Make MMORPG's Great Again!
  • filmoretfilmoret Member EpicPosts: 4,906
    Viper482 said:
    MMOExposed said:
    WvW, Cyrodiil, whats some things that Guild Wars 2 and Elder Scrolls Online did right/ wrong?
    I absolutely hate the "esports" factor. There should be no time limit or scores in war. Daoc is the only one that has gotten it right. The war should be a persistent neverending conflict between the same 3 sides at all times. You should also have your own static territory that belongs to you at all times. This is your land, and anyone who invades it dies for it, not for points but for pride. You should not be able to change sides or cross server. No server transfer, if you want to move reroll somewhere else.

    Just my opinion. More Daoc, less of this crap.

    Your biggest beef is the fact that maps reset once a week or month?  picky much?  Server transfers are important because when people actually want to play a game without having to grind a new character for 400 hours.  Well that should be common sense there.  Which is why Esports are so popular because they don't have to deal with all the crap that mmorpg's have tried to put them through.  The crap that you are saying makes it better actually is what killed it.
    Are you onto something or just on something?
  • filmoretfilmoret Member EpicPosts: 4,906
    blueturtle13 said:
    Sovrath said:
    Iselin said:

    I was involved in a keep fight in ESO not long ago when ~ 40 of us held-off 100+ for about 3 hours. This PVP also provides epic fights like that. I'll take this type of fighting over little 20 vs. 20 scenarios with their scoreboards any day of the week. 
    "I agree"

    I should say that I did actually enjoy the Warhammer battlegrounds, they were fun.

    But for me the best pvp were the Lineage 2 sieges.

    100% agree. L2 sieges were amazing

    Were amazing?   Did they change it so not very good now?
    Are you onto something or just on something?
  • NomadMorlockNomadMorlock Member UncommonPosts: 815
    Cyrodiil is much better than GW WvW in my opinion.  Much more massive scale and the terrain is much better and the entire map is much larger.  

    On a note of what ESO did right and GW did wrong was the lack of the Trinity in GW2.  It sounded grand, but the reality is that it's horrible.
    The Differently Geared 
  • filmoretfilmoret Member EpicPosts: 4,906
    NomadMorlock said:
    Cyrodiil is much better than GW WvW in my opinion.  Much more massive scale and the terrain is much better and the entire map is much larger.  

    On a note of what ESO did right and GW did wrong was the lack of the Trinity in GW2.  It sounded grand, but the reality is that it's horrible.
    GW2 has a trinity where have you been?
    Are you onto something or just on something?
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