WOW is not the reason why the "golden age" has not happened, on the opposite...WOW set the stone for what it takes to directly compete with it that clearly nobody could for many years, but for some reason so many companies out there instead of not competing with its endgame formula they chose to copy it and succumb to their own problems.
Other games are not the reason someone else product is not a success. It's the creators itself and the decision they choose to bring toward their games that result in their eventual end.
The problem isn't WoW...it's the developers and lack of new blood in the industry. The basic 'MMO' formula is now too generic with far too many games with the same basic systems.
We need virtual online world games with systems and results (based on our choices) we've never seen before. These worlds need to be capable of thousands of players capable of meaningful interaction with other players (dancing around, waving, sitting down indian style, buying silly outfits and pets/mounts in cash shops, etc. doesn't count). We need worlds and cities also filled with AI controlled characters each programmed to behave individually and make decisions based on what players actually do (and not picking a line off pre-scripted, in-game cut scenes with developers attempting to tell us we are making meaningful, game-changing 'choices').
I simply view WoW as the most financially successful product in an industry plagued with stagnation and over-saturation of the same basic recycled formulas. It's merely the poster child of the current state of MMOs.
The golden age of mmorpgs has come and gone and that seemingly inexhaustible vein of gold has run out and the stuff you see now is from deluded speculators picking through the slag pile.
Like the statue of a great dictator, the stone visage of MMO's will roll over, upon the shadow of WoW and create a new era. But that can no be complete until WoW shut's down. It needs to die, in order for MMO's to be reborn.
WoW has nothing to do with how things are right now. It may have started it but it's all the "money money money" people who are pushing the style. MMOs were meant to be worlds to live in for those who wanted to. While what is out now certainly is another side of that... it should never have killed games like SWG and Everquest. They should of been able to live alongside eachother.
Were other games dead when WoW started? Wow dieing won't make a better game or have players suddenly find something. A game that is good enough has to come along. If you build it. . .
WOW aged well and it will die , one day . But golden age come back ? i don't think so . Unless an MMORPG with better combat come out , i don't think there will be another golden age . A type of combat that you don't get tired to play .
This thread is dumb and kinda ignorant. There was a golden age of MMO's and it was before WoW when the genre was still new and fresh. Saying WoW needs to die in order for good games to emerge is just simple minded and over looks the fact that for good MMO's to be made the fans of the genre need to stop buying into and hyping up every piece of trash thats gets released.
In fact there is easily reason after reason why the genre is terrible right now. And the only mention I'd give for WoW is that it is made the genre so popular that hack AAA developers view MMO's as a formula to print money, whether the game is bad or not.
... The basic 'MMO' formula is now too generic with far too many games with the same basic systems...
I would argue this is because they all come from the same small set of engines. I would argue the golden age will usher in when the engines evolve as opposed to the success of a particular skin (yes I know wow is its own engine but the principle still holds that others are just enhanced mods).
In defense of all the developers since WoW, I think people need to be reminded that technology has been a major limitation when it comes to creating 'virtual worlds'.
Between needing systems that work for various internet connections, low-end computers, etc., developers had some serious limitations during this past generation. Worlds can only be so dynamic when you have to account for so many bottlenecks.
Tech has increased quite a bit over the last couple years(hence the new consoles and such), but there's still going to be limits.
I think the dreamed about 'Golden Age' will stay a dream until we have that big A.I. evolution. Everything is still tied into fairly static scripting, atm.
Reactive, thinking, learning A.I. and VR - that's a dream I can't wait to see receive the breath of life.
... The basic 'MMO' formula is now too generic with far too many games with the same basic systems...
I would argue this is because they all come from the same small set of engines. I would argue the golden age will usher in when the engines evolve as opposed to the success of a particular skin (yes I know wow is its own engine but the principle still holds that others are just enhanced mods).
There are so few MMO engines and lack of variety because the industry in its current state doesn't need anymore due to the basic gameplay being so generic and cookie-cutter.
Game engines play catch-up to new systems existing developers add to an established genre (not the other way around). A new type of gameplay will need to come first. And gaming, regardless of genre, shows that.
In defense of all the developers since WoW, I think people need to be reminded that technology has been a major limitation when it comes to creating 'virtual worlds'.
Between needing systems that work for various internet connections, low-end computers, etc., developers had some serious limitations during this past generation. Worlds can only be so dynamic when you have to account for so many bottlenecks.
Tech has increased quite a bit over the last couple years(hence the new consoles and such), but there's still going to be limits.
I think the dreamed about 'Golden Age' will stay a dream until we have that big A.I. evolution. Everything is still tied into fairly static scripting, atm.
Reactive, thinking, learning A.I. and VR - that's a dream I can't wait to see receive the breath of life.
This is the problem. MMOs now is a "everyone can play" idea. People talk about Niche or low end computers... if you are a proper gamer you are gonna have a decent computer. If you don't want to upgrade your pc why do the devs have to dumb down their game for you?
I think the dreamed about 'Golden Age' will stay a dream until we have that big A.I. evolution. Everything is still tied into fairly static scripting, atm.
Reactive, thinking, learning A.I. and VR - that's a dream I can't wait to see receive the breath of life.
A.I evolution ? do you know how much impossible of that request ? Also , you can just replace A.I with the game master . Even if you have smart enough A.I , it's impossible to replace human mind , unless you want matrix or skynet .
What people need is an apple tree that keep grow new apple , not an apple on plate nor some over price French dishes .
In defense of all the developers since WoW, I think people need to be reminded that technology has been a major limitation when it comes to creating 'virtual worlds'.
Between needing systems that work for various internet connections, low-end computers, etc., developers had some serious limitations during this past generation. Worlds can only be so dynamic when you have to account for so many bottlenecks.
Tech has increased quite a bit over the last couple years(hence the new consoles and such), but there's still going to be limits.
I think the dreamed about 'Golden Age' will stay a dream until we have that big A.I. evolution. Everything is still tied into fairly static scripting, atm.
Reactive, thinking, learning A.I. and VR - that's a dream I can't wait to see receive the breath of life.
Think you're right on the technology part for limiting virtual worlds. However, don't agree with the AI part.
The lack of AI controlled characters doing meaningful things (besides walking from prescripted point A to B...and back!) is just an area developers ignore. They put all their programming into scripted quests and the trinity, etc.
The ability to actually take the time to have programmers code in AI individually to do meaningful activities in their best interests (and respond to human players) is there, but the existing formula puts little to no priority in this area. So it's another flaw of the current industry paradigm and not necessarily waiting around for some AI supercomputer code to be developed.
the "problem" is that mmo's just aren't new and exiting any more, any mmo that comes out nowadays just isn't gonna be a big hit cause mmo's are dead, not just WoW, but yeah WoW has been dead for a long time
I think the dreamed about 'Golden Age' will stay a dream until we have that big A.I. evolution. Everything is still tied into fairly static scripting, atm.
Reactive, thinking, learning A.I. and VR - that's a dream I can't wait to see receive the breath of life.
A.I evolution ? do you know how much impossible of that request ? Also , you can just replace A.I with the game master . Even if you have smart enough A.I , it's impossible to replace human mind , unless you want matrix or skynet .
What people need is an apple tree that keep grow new apple , not an apple on plate nor some over price French dishes .
There are only two things that need to destroy WoW, well 3 if you count a game that is undeniably fun and addicting as hell (but it's different for everyone).
1. Artificial intelligence - when we're able actually talk to NPC's as if they were human, and have them understand, then we will have a breakthrough. As it stands right now, the CPU in an MMO world can be programmed to be as smart or as stupid as we need it to be. Only when we are able to talk and adventure with CPU characters just like we do humans, will there be a breakthrough.
2. Virtual worlds need to be built - the tech for MASSIVE worlds is almost there. VR is a huge leap here, but the matter of immersive AI still remains. In VR, you can visually and audibly create a world EXACTLY as it would exist in real life. I don't think anyone has caught on to this yet, but this is possible TODAY. Can't get that in MMO's now - or rather you can, but you're not immersed in it like VR would do.
We will see a shift in MMO's in the next 10-20 years - mainly because VR requires the developer to immerse the player for the EXPERIENCE. It will take time to do, but it will happen. I think in the next 5 years, gamer's are going to move away from 2D screens, and into VR.
Even still - just a breakthrough in game design at this point would probably make that new game skyrocket in popularity. MMO's are so static now, you pretty much get the same game with each new release. I think people are just sick of that.
Think you're right on the technology part for limiting virtual worlds. However, don't agree with the AI part.
The lack of AI controlled characters doing meaningful things (besides walking from prescripted point A to B...and back!) is just an area developers ignore. They put all their programming into scripted quests and the trinity, etc.
The ability to actually take the time to have programmers code in AI individually to do meaningful activities in their best interests (and respond to human players) is there, but the existing formula puts little to no priority in this area. So it's another flaw of the current industry paradigm and not necessarily waiting around for some AI supercomputer code to be developed.
You are right there. I'm not saying those things can't be done better and receive more effort. I'm just saying alot of people have fairly unrealistic expectations.
One of the big tech holdbacks that personally drove me insane was the actual amount of NPCs you would see in one particular area. I'm sure everyone has seen those big, massive, beautiful cities that have like 10 people in them.(Bethesda games are a good example of this)
That has to be one of my biggest gripes. And, point of note, this was also a good example of everyone choosing graphics over content.
Reminds me of that old Star Trek TNG episode where the crew just kept disappearing and there weren't even enough folks left to man the ship. I'm hoping some of the upcoming new-gen games will remedy that, but we'll see.
It would have been interesting to see how that whole StoryBricks thing played out, though I'm of the mind it was being over-hyped to start with.
There are only two things that need to destroy WoW, well 3 if you count a game that is undeniably fun and addicting as hell (but it's different for everyone).
1. Artificial intelligence - when we're able actually talk to NPC's as if they were human, and have them understand, then we will have a breakthrough. As it stands right now, the CPU in an MMO world can be programmed to be as smart or as stupid as we need it to be. Only when we are able to talk and adventure with CPU characters just like we do humans, will there be a breakthrough.
2. Virtual worlds need to be built - the tech for MASSIVE worlds is almost there. VR is a huge leap here, but the matter of immersive AI still remains. In VR, you can visually and audibly create a world EXACTLY as it would exist in real life. I don't think anyone has caught on to this yet, but this is possible TODAY. Can't get that in MMO's now - or rather you can, but you're not immersed in it like VR would do.
We will see a shift in MMO's in the next 10-20 years - mainly because VR requires the developer to immerse the player for the EXPERIENCE. It will take time to do, but it will happen. I think in the next 5 years, gamer's are going to move away from 2D screens, and into VR.
A.I. Is a big one for me, I still think AI is where our industry really falls short, and fails to capture more action oriented audiences.
Like even Skyrim's appallingly awkward AI has its shining moments. In an MMO, its basically "Walk the NPC like a dog on a leash" and hope they dont venture too far before you have to tug their throats and yell "Bad Boy!"
There are only two things that need to destroy WoW, well 3 if you count a game that is undeniably fun and addicting as hell (but it's different for everyone).
1. Artificial intelligence - when we're able actually talk to NPC's as if they were human, and have them understand, then we will have a breakthrough. As it stands right now, the CPU in an MMO world can be programmed to be as smart or as stupid as we need it to be. Only when we are able to talk and adventure with CPU characters just like we do humans, will there be a breakthrough.
2. Virtual worlds need to be built - the tech for MASSIVE worlds is almost there. VR is a huge leap here, but the matter of immersive AI still remains. In VR, you can visually and audibly create a world EXACTLY as it would exist in real life. I don't think anyone has caught on to this yet, but this is possible TODAY. Can't get that in MMO's now - or rather you can, but you're not immersed in it like VR would do.
We will see a shift in MMO's in the next 10-20 years - mainly because VR requires the developer to immerse the player for the EXPERIENCE. It will take time to do, but it will happen. I think in the next 5 years, gamer's are going to move away from 2D screens, and into VR.
A.I. Is a big one for me, I still think AI is where our industry really falls short, and fails to capture more action oriented audiences.
Like even Skyrim's appallingly awkward AI has its shining moments. In an MMO, its basically "Walk the NPC like a dog on a leash" and hope they dont venture too far before you have to tug their throats and yell "Bad Boy!"
Its funny you say that, because even in a fight where people know the timers (deadly boss mod is so fail imo but w/e) people still cant clear current WoW content on its hardest difficulties. Which begs the question......why do people complain when they cant do the hardest content in mmo's right now? Yet they want harder?
Kind of a joke 1 would think. Not directing at you, because I dont know if you play wow, but the pct that makes claims of games being easy mode, I can almost gurantee they havent come close to WoW's top game. PvP wise as well, not many 2500's is there in arena rating
I echo Lokero, WoW has been dead for a long time to the majority of MMO players (or at least those who have played more than one). The problems, and why it continues, are many fold. Many had their first experience with it (thank goodness for EQ), and thus go back time to time. Many are simply used to it and find it "comfortable". Many have made or strengthened friendships through it. And then theres the problem of mass: so many are playing that it just keeps moving even though it has stopped adding to its own forward momentum ("Quantity has a quality all its own").
WoW will never be "killed" by a competitor. It will slowly die to entropy. Very slowly. Over a course of years.
All we can hope for is one of those competitors to speed such a decline through a game that is engaging, tells a great story, and gives players what they want (whatever that may be).
Majority? Dont think so.
But I do agree, nothing will kill wow other then time.
This assumption is true only if we accept mediocre game development to simply move 5-7 million from Wow into the other 1500 games competing for the same player base. I would just like to see a really good game,that will attract other gamer's that don't normally play mmorpg's.
However that will be a major task to convince those non mmorpg players to join in.I saw millions playing FB games and Farmville games,it seems most just want a super easy super casual gaming.Perhaps that is why i see so much junk selling and players playing,example that arena car soccer game,many seemed to enjoy it but it is a rubbish game,really cheap nothing going for it other than deflect ball with car,really no better not even as good as Blitzball inside of FFX and that was just a side mini game not a full complete game.
It is all about budget and we just do not have enough big wallets to even have a chance at a great game.Nobody is going to surpass TESO or FFXIV not for a long time,instead we will just keep seeing Indie projects no matter Wow is alive or not.When i see the developer with the most money "Blizzard" continue to make cheap looking games,it is a real sad day for hopes of the future.
Instead i jst see a single player game market continue to thrive,40 hour games that easily sell because they are just higher quality than half baked mmorpg's.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
If it makes more money than anything else it's holy.
I probably should say "you guys are just jealous of WoW's budget"
Let's face it, those golden age mmorpg are all very low budget games.
If they can't even survive as a low budget games, why do people expect higher budget to remake those games.
What I am really asking is why do you need big budget games to have fun? You never did.
People make comments like "I remember how much fun MUD is"... The thing is MUD is even better now. Yet people dont' play them. People's expectation are higher now. That's all.
Of course, its higher. We don't drive Model T's, anymore. Everything is suppose to evolve into something better. We are not seeing this happen. The lack of any successful games, since WoW proves this. They are all following the WoW model, and failing.
Comments
Other games are not the reason someone else product is not a success. It's the creators itself and the decision they choose to bring toward their games that result in their eventual end.
We need virtual online world games with systems and results (based on our choices) we've never seen before. These worlds need to be capable of thousands of players capable of meaningful interaction with other players (dancing around, waving, sitting down indian style, buying silly outfits and pets/mounts in cash shops, etc. doesn't count). We need worlds and cities also filled with AI controlled characters each programmed to behave individually and make decisions based on what players actually do (and not picking a line off pre-scripted, in-game cut scenes with developers attempting to tell us we are making meaningful, game-changing 'choices').
I simply view WoW as the most financially successful product in an industry plagued with stagnation and over-saturation of the same basic recycled formulas. It's merely the poster child of the current state of MMOs.
WoW has nothing to do with how things are right now. It may have started it but it's all the "money money money" people who are pushing the style. MMOs were meant to be worlds to live in for those who wanted to. While what is out now certainly is another side of that... it should never have killed games like SWG and Everquest. They should of been able to live alongside eachother.
Wa min God! Se æx on min heafod is!
Unless an MMORPG with better combat come out , i don't think there will be another golden age . A type of combat that you don't get tired to play .
In fact there is easily reason after reason why the genre is terrible right now. And the only mention I'd give for WoW is that it is made the genre so popular that hack AAA developers view MMO's as a formula to print money, whether the game is bad or not.
Between needing systems that work for various internet connections, low-end computers, etc., developers had some serious limitations during this past generation. Worlds can only be so dynamic when you have to account for so many bottlenecks.
Tech has increased quite a bit over the last couple years(hence the new consoles and such), but there's still going to be limits.
I think the dreamed about 'Golden Age' will stay a dream until we have that big A.I. evolution. Everything is still tied into fairly static scripting, atm.
Reactive, thinking, learning A.I. and VR - that's a dream I can't wait to see receive the breath of life.
Game engines play catch-up to new systems existing developers add to an established genre (not the other way around). A new type of gameplay will need to come first. And gaming, regardless of genre, shows that.
This is the problem. MMOs now is a "everyone can play" idea. People talk about Niche or low end computers... if you are a proper gamer you are gonna have a decent computer. If you don't want to upgrade your pc why do the devs have to dumb down their game for you?
Also , you can just replace A.I with the game master . Even if you have smart enough A.I , it's impossible to replace human mind , unless you want matrix or skynet .
What people need is an apple tree that keep grow new apple , not an apple on plate nor some over price French dishes .
The lack of AI controlled characters doing meaningful things (besides walking from prescripted point A to B...and back!) is just an area developers ignore. They put all their programming into scripted quests and the trinity, etc.
The ability to actually take the time to have programmers code in AI individually to do meaningful activities in their best interests (and respond to human players) is there, but the existing formula puts little to no priority in this area. So it's another flaw of the current industry paradigm and not necessarily waiting around for some AI supercomputer code to be developed.
huh?
1. Artificial intelligence - when we're able actually talk to NPC's as if they were human, and have them understand, then we will have a breakthrough. As it stands right now, the CPU in an MMO world can be programmed to be as smart or as stupid as we need it to be. Only when we are able to talk and adventure with CPU characters just like we do humans, will there be a breakthrough.
2. Virtual worlds need to be built - the tech for MASSIVE worlds is almost there. VR is a huge leap here, but the matter of immersive AI still remains. In VR, you can visually and audibly create a world EXACTLY as it would exist in real life. I don't think anyone has caught on to this yet, but this is possible TODAY. Can't get that in MMO's now - or rather you can, but you're not immersed in it like VR would do.
We will see a shift in MMO's in the next 10-20 years - mainly because VR requires the developer to immerse the player for the EXPERIENCE. It will take time to do, but it will happen. I think in the next 5 years, gamer's are going to move away from 2D screens, and into VR.
One of the big tech holdbacks that personally drove me insane was the actual amount of NPCs you would see in one particular area. I'm sure everyone has seen those big, massive, beautiful cities that have like 10 people in them.(Bethesda games are a good example of this)
That has to be one of my biggest gripes. And, point of note, this was also a good example of everyone choosing graphics over content.
Reminds me of that old Star Trek TNG episode where the crew just kept disappearing and there weren't even enough folks left to man the ship.
I'm hoping some of the upcoming new-gen games will remedy that, but we'll see.
It would have been interesting to see how that whole StoryBricks thing played out, though I'm of the mind it was being over-hyped to start with.
Like even Skyrim's appallingly awkward AI has its shining moments. In an MMO, its basically "Walk the NPC like a dog on a leash" and hope they dont venture too far before you have to tug their throats and yell "Bad Boy!"
Kind of a joke 1 would think. Not directing at you, because I dont know if you play wow, but the pct that makes claims of games being easy mode, I can almost gurantee they havent come close to WoW's top game. PvP wise as well, not many 2500's is there in arena rating
But I do agree, nothing will kill wow other then time.
I would just like to see a really good game,that will attract other gamer's that don't normally play mmorpg's.
However that will be a major task to convince those non mmorpg players to join in.I saw millions playing FB games and Farmville games,it seems most just want a super easy super casual gaming.Perhaps that is why i see so much junk selling and players playing,example that arena car soccer game,many seemed to enjoy it but it is a rubbish game,really cheap nothing going for it other than deflect ball with car,really no better not even as good as Blitzball inside of FFX and that was just a side mini game not a full complete game.
It is all about budget and we just do not have enough big wallets to even have a chance at a great game.Nobody is going to surpass TESO or FFXIV not for a long time,instead we will just keep seeing Indie projects no matter Wow is alive or not.When i see the developer with the most money "Blizzard" continue to make cheap looking games,it is a real sad day for hopes of the future.
Instead i jst see a single player game market continue to thrive,40 hour games that easily sell because they are just higher quality than half baked mmorpg's.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.