@Thebeasttt So what is so bad about it? Is it just that it's F2P? Or that it's instanced? Or the graphics?
@Golelorn So you don't like it just due to low population? It sounds like you did like it to begin with?
It doesn't capture the spirit of D&D, which is to adventure through your character in a believable world. The rules aren't even close, it's very limited and instanced. Not open world. Not immersive at all. Encourages solo. All these things and more make a game that's the opposite of D&D, let alone an accurate depiction of it. Sadly classic Everquest or UO is far and above more D&D then DDO or Neverwinter Online will ever be.
That's why so many were excited about the Pathfinder Online....only to find out it's like the 4th edition of MMO's.
Still the best dungeon and character builder in any game I ever played. You can get any skill/class combo to build very interesting characters. The dungeons with the puzzles and the traps are great too. What lacks is everything else. Basicly it is a lobby game to go to the dungeons and fight. It was a great game for its time.
@Thebeasttt So what is so bad about it? Is it just that it's F2P? Or that it's instanced? Or the graphics?
...
It doesn't capture the spirit of D&D, which is to adventure through your character in a believable world. The rules aren't even close, it's very limited and instanced. Not open world. Not immersive at all. Encourages solo. All these things and more make a game that's the opposite of D&D, let alone an accurate depiction of it. Sadly classic Everquest or UO is far and above more D&D then DDO or Neverwinter Online will ever be.
...
Thanks for the answer!
As for the instancing - D&D was always instanced. Even the Pen and Paper version. The dungeons were modules. The open world was really just a bunch of random wandering monster encounters. Now sure - it could be more than that - but the whole system was really dependent on the skill of the DM. Some DMs were way better than others (as we all know).
Also, in P&P games, moves were one at a time... you simply cannot do that in a multiplayer, real time game. DDO can never be exactly like D&D. As for Neverwinter, I have never played it, but I spent enough time in Cryptic's engine to see it. Again, the difficulty of real time and multiplayer mean that something has to give.
As for immersive and soloing - I think the game is what you make it. My suggestion is that you might want to play with a Perma Death Guild or group. DDO works really well this way (many MMOs simply don't or can't since you die all the time) - and being Perma Death changes the way players play and interact.
DDO was pretty lame at launch. I really didnt enjoy it.
But I came back to it just as it went Free to play. By which time the game was getting better. I came back to it again as Forgotten Realms came out by which time i felt it was superb. I have come back to it another few times. Its a fine wine game that has been getting better with age.
Highlights:
Micro transactions:
I like the free to play system of transactions, you can either pay a monthly fee and get all the content or pay for each adventure pack (series of 3-10 adventures linked to a regeion) for a few $ and its yours forever for all your characters at no additional cost.
Yes there are also pay to win elements, you can buy stat tombs, basic +1 weapons and healing potion for $ but the game is just as much fun without them and there is no real PVP so if somebody else wants to buy this it doesnt effect my game.
In my book they did it first and they did it right.....generally i hate free to play but this is ok.
Depth:
D&D 3.5 in my opinion is actually more suited to a computer game than a table top game IMHO. Its so complicated and detailed you need a computer to run it smoothly. Turbine have made some changes to the core rules but I think it works really well and the viable build diversity is huge.
Put DDO next to sword coast legends and Sword coast legends comes away looking like a shallow crock of turd.
Community
Generally they are a lovely bunch of people really nice fun to play with but you get the odd freak.
Tips:
Try it but be away the early adventures are not the best...play it atleast until you do the waterworks and know it getting alot better the further you get into it.
Thebeasttt said:
That's probably the best argument against F2P, it keeps terrible MMO's alive. At launch DDO was a poor attempt at a D&D MMO and it still is to this day. It should have never lived past a year or two but thanks to F2P it keeps chugging along, encouraging bad developers everywhere to do just enough to get by.
To me it seems the best D&D mmo, possibly the best D&D game outside of the classics like neverwinter and baldurs gate of course.
What other D&D mmo has captured the spirit of D&D so well in terms of character building, spells, classes, dungeon mechanics like traps, secret doors, lockpicking; game mechanics like taunt, sneak, jump, use magic device etc, character/npc alignment, voiced dungeons- I mean its just straight up the closest thing I have played to actual D&D in an mmo.
It even has modern mechanics like a form of action combat, the level design of many of the dungeons is outstanding and organic, it has incredibly deep character customization, the mob AI is outstanding for an mmo- for example you can use noise and certain skills to get a monster to go into a search routine (most mmos and many games simply have two mob states- aware of player = rush toward them, not aware = stand around stupidly).
Its an extremely innovative game on many levels and holds quite true to the D&D rule set it uses.
Nope. Or at least not entirely correct (don't get me wrong, I'm a huge Ragnar fan and like Funcom too)
AO's f2p is just an unlimited trial, the same one FC did with AoC's Tortage before the f2p conversion. At the start it was time-limited, then a few years later they removed the time limit, but locked the available content. True, it's much larger than Tortage was later with AoC you have the whole base game, but none of the expansions. And you don't have any options to reach those content, besides subscribing - so technically it's a trial. But true, it started 5 years before DDO's f2p switch.
In the 90's, I played my first pen and paper game. Yep, it was D&D. I loved it. Hours and hours of playing. Sometimes we'd play 18 hours, sleep a few hours, then do it all again. That game changed everything for me. Since then I've played various p&p games and been looking for online games that will give me at least the same kind of experience.
DDO is NOT it. The creators seriously dropped the ball with the game, and given how little attention it has gotten from them, even they know it.
... Since then I've played various p&p games and been looking for online games that will give me at least the same kind of experience.
DDO is NOT it. The creators seriously dropped the ball with the game, and given how little attention it has gotten from them, even they know it.
I can help!
I Just rolled 5 x 3D6 = 8 ,12 , 17, 11 and 16
Just gimme a minute to assign my stats...
Wait... Can I be a fighter who uses clerical spells but uses bladed weapons? Where exactly does the rules say I can't? Hang on... the rules say I get +1 on a 12 plus... does that mean I get a +1 if my stat is 12 OR does that mean I get +1 for more than 12? Er... I might be better as a halfling...don't I get a stealth bonus?... I have to think on this.
When this game first released I actually found the game to be fun and a great translation of the way the Pen & Paper version worked with Quest Packs to the in-game Stories broken down into what seems like Quest packs from P&P. I was not a fan of Ebberon, but the game was still a blast. I did find it very funny that a lot of the players I voice chatted with in-game were from Australia, but it was not a bad built-in voice system in the beginning.
I wish they had stuck with the regularly scheduled content release in those early days. But content role-out will always be dependent on income from a large paying player base.
I've gone back to the game every couple years and still have a blast playing the game, even with it's dating graphics. But the best way to enjoy the game in my opinion is to find some folks to level up with and play through the content together. Their group finder system is nice, but nothing beats leveling along side similar minded players.
When the game went FTP, I was not a big fan of they way they went about it, having so many restrictions sitting behind pay-gates for the Free players. But the costs were not too terrible for each small item, compared to later FTP games, such as Runes of Magic, that suck every penny they can out of you at the end game, unless you wish to grind your mouse to the circuit board. And because of the pitfalls of DDO's FTP system, later games learned from this and in many cases improved on the system (i.e. Lotro, Rift, etc).
It is sad that Wizard of the Coast perhaps snubbed their noses at the game at some point, but that is not all that WotC did for the Dungeons & Dragons universe. For me, the top 2 best D&D systems were AD&D 2nd Ed. and 3.0/3.5 versions, whereas I really became disappointed at their changes post 3.5. It seemed they were attempted to cater more to Console Gamers then the Pen & Paper Gamers in how they went about the 4.0 changes and beyond. They are falling into the category many game oriented companies are falling into nowadays, were it is more about making a quick buck with new game versions every couple years, then putting out a high quality long-lasting product that makes sense, and profiting more on tons of added content rather then redoing it all again and again, with pushing players to pay for yet another version of the same thing. Enough of my WotC rant.
In comparing DDO to Neverwinter, they both claim to be Dungeons & Dragons games. Neverwinter in my opinion is an alright game, although it doesn't fully feel like a Dungeons & Dragons game due to it's play style. DDO feels more true to the P&P game and universe themes. Neverwinter feels more like a generic Action-Based Fantasy MMORPG slapped with a D&D label. In DDO, the Character Classes feel more connected to the D&D universe class system. Neverwinter has nothing but mixed classes, hybrids, no actual pure classes, which is a disappointment. When comparing the stories and staying true to the D&D universe, DDO wins hands down.
In the 90's, I played my first pen and paper game. Yep, it was D&D. I loved it. Hours and hours of playing. Sometimes we'd play 18 hours, sleep a few hours, then do it all again. That game changed everything for me. Since then I've played various p&p games and been looking for online games that will give me at least the same kind of experience.
DDO is NOT it. The creators seriously dropped the ball with the game, and given how little attention it has gotten from them, even they know it.
As far as I know, it is the only mmo that even comes close to D&D.
But basically this is what happened: WotC (Hasbro) licensed the rights to ATARI. ATARI sub licensed to Turbine. Note: ATARI didn't have to go with Turbine - that was their choice. ATARI then failed to promote the game (DDO: Stormreach) At some point ATARI decided they would rather be with Cryptic. Rather than simply say to Turbine "Thanks... but it didn't really work out..." they continued to sign amendments and extensions with Turbine while Turbine made changes in an attempt to keep the game alive. This includes the FTP conversion to DDO: Ebberron. But while they were doing that... they were trying to break the contract so they could hand the rights for a D&D MMO to Cryptic. Meanwhile, not only was ATARI doing sneaky deals with Cryptic about Neverwinter they also sub licensed to Namco Bandai who are Hasbro / WotC competitor! So, Hasbro sued them too.
ATARI is responsible for a lot of what happened. Rather than handle things in a professional and business like manner - they tried to be sneaky and 'clever'. They didn't have to sign with Turbine - but once they did they should have been honest and upfront and met their obligations.
[...] At some point ATARI decided they would rather be with Cryptic.
Yep, in those few years Atari "successfully" kicked themselves out of the industry. Quite an achievment considering how big they were for decades, and totally erased that in only 2-3 years... they're barely alive nowadays.
Just for that bold Cryptic part: Cryptic was just a tool for Atari to quickly grab some extra money and buy time before all goes down. They got Cryptic (with only CO, and STO in the works), forced them to release STO way too early, quickly made the announcement of Cryptic will make a Neverwinter mmo, then sold them (now with 3 licenses) to PWE. Back then I'd have said Turbine is luckier, at least they went to WB... but turned out PWE is not that bad either - at least they keep all 3 games open and lately (now that the other two are in decent shape) even giving some money for CO too
Yeah, ATARI owns so many good IPs (or they used to - I haven't kept up) but they did nothing with them - or worse - they refused to let their licensees make necessary changes to make good games (which would generate good revenue) Paradox's Diplomacy was another title from around that time - and the Devs there eventually gave a very strong hint that the reason they couldn't put many features in place was because of the contract terms with ATARI. Particle SystemsI-War is another - relegated to a really bad browser based game - but user communities created so many good mods for a decade. Elite: Dangerous in many ways is basically an MMO that looks and feels very much like I-War so again, a missed opportunity? The list goes on. ATARI locked those games away to protect an IP and 'potential revenue'. ATARI became a company focused on money that forgot that the money was generated by people playing games they loved.
I'm honestly surprised at you for sighing about F2P conversions. I mean, yes, F2P can be obnoxious, but I think it obviously saved the genre and breathed some new life into.
Comments
That's why so many were excited about the Pathfinder Online....only to find out it's like the 4th edition of MMO's.
As for the instancing - D&D was always instanced. Even the Pen and Paper version. The dungeons were modules. The open world was really just a bunch of random wandering monster encounters.
Now sure - it could be more than that - but the whole system was really dependent on the skill of the DM.
Some DMs were way better than others (as we all know).
Also, in P&P games, moves were one at a time... you simply cannot do that in a multiplayer, real time game.
DDO can never be exactly like D&D.
As for Neverwinter, I have never played it, but I spent enough time in Cryptic's engine to see it. Again, the difficulty of real time and multiplayer mean that something has to give.
As for immersive and soloing - I think the game is what you make it.
My suggestion is that you might want to play with a Perma Death Guild or group.
DDO works really well this way (many MMOs simply don't or can't since you die all the time) - and being Perma Death changes the way players play and interact.
Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.
But I came back to it just as it went Free to play. By which time the game was getting better. I came back to it again as Forgotten Realms came out by which time i felt it was superb. I have come back to it another few times. Its a fine wine game that has been getting better with age.
Highlights:
Micro transactions:
I like the free to play system of transactions, you can either pay a monthly fee and get all the content or pay for each adventure pack (series of 3-10 adventures linked to a regeion) for a few $ and its yours forever for all your characters at no additional cost.
Yes there are also pay to win elements, you can buy stat tombs, basic +1 weapons and healing potion for $ but the game is just as much fun without them and there is no real PVP so if somebody else wants to buy this it doesnt effect my game.
In my book they did it first and they did it right.....generally i hate free to play but this is ok.
Depth:
D&D 3.5 in my opinion is actually more suited to a computer game than a table top game IMHO. Its so complicated and detailed you need a computer to run it smoothly. Turbine have made some changes to the core rules but I think it works really well and the viable build diversity is huge.
Put DDO next to sword coast legends and Sword coast legends comes away looking like a shallow crock of turd.
Community
Generally they are a lovely bunch of people really nice fun to play with but you get the odd freak.
Tips:
Try it but be away the early adventures are not the best...play it atleast until you do the waterworks and know it getting alot better the further you get into it.
Anarchy Online did that long before DDO.
That's probably the best argument against F2P, it keeps terrible MMO's alive. At launch DDO was a poor attempt at a D&D MMO and it still is to this day. It should have never lived past a year or two but thanks to F2P it keeps chugging along, encouraging bad developers everywhere to do just enough to get by.
To me it seems the best D&D mmo, possibly the best D&D game outside of the classics like neverwinter and baldurs gate of course.
What other D&D mmo has captured the spirit of D&D so well in terms of character building, spells, classes, dungeon mechanics like traps, secret doors, lockpicking; game mechanics like taunt, sneak, jump, use magic device etc, character/npc alignment, voiced dungeons- I mean its just straight up the closest thing I have played to actual D&D in an mmo.
It even has modern mechanics like a form of action combat, the level design of many of the dungeons is outstanding and organic, it has incredibly deep character customization, the mob AI is outstanding for an mmo- for example you can use noise and certain skills to get a monster to go into a search routine (most mmos and many games simply have two mob states- aware of player = rush toward them, not aware = stand around stupidly).
Its an extremely innovative game on many levels and holds quite true to the D&D rule set it uses.
AO's f2p is just an unlimited trial, the same one FC did with AoC's Tortage before the f2p conversion.
At the start it was time-limited, then a few years later they removed the time limit, but locked the available content. True, it's much larger than Tortage was later with AoC
But true, it started 5 years before DDO's f2p switch.
DDO is NOT it. The creators seriously dropped the ball with the game, and given how little attention it has gotten from them, even they know it.
I Just rolled 5 x 3D6 = 8 ,12 , 17, 11 and 16
Just gimme a minute to assign my stats...
Wait... Can I be a fighter who uses clerical spells but uses bladed weapons?
Where exactly does the rules say I can't?
Hang on... the rules say I get +1 on a 12 plus... does that mean I get a +1 if my stat is 12 OR does that mean I get +1 for more than 12?
Er... I might be better as a halfling...don't I get a stealth bonus?... I have to think on this.
Could you check back in half an hour?
Meanwhile watch these guys play for 'that experience':
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJhFZ2w0Dk8
Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.
I wish they had stuck with the regularly scheduled content release in those early days. But content role-out will always be dependent on income from a large paying player base.
I've gone back to the game every couple years and still have a blast playing the game, even with it's dating graphics. But the best way to enjoy the game in my opinion is to find some folks to level up with and play through the content together. Their group finder system is nice, but nothing beats leveling along side similar minded players.
When the game went FTP, I was not a big fan of they way they went about it, having so many restrictions sitting behind pay-gates for the Free players. But the costs were not too terrible for each small item, compared to later FTP games, such as Runes of Magic, that suck every penny they can out of you at the end game, unless you wish to grind your mouse to the circuit board. And because of the pitfalls of DDO's FTP system, later games learned from this and in many cases improved on the system (i.e. Lotro, Rift, etc).
It is sad that Wizard of the Coast perhaps snubbed their noses at the game at some point, but that is not all that WotC did for the Dungeons & Dragons universe. For me, the top 2 best D&D systems were AD&D 2nd Ed. and 3.0/3.5 versions, whereas I really became disappointed at their changes post 3.5. It seemed they were attempted to cater more to Console Gamers then the Pen & Paper Gamers in how they went about the 4.0 changes and beyond. They are falling into the category many game oriented companies are falling into nowadays, were it is more about making a quick buck with new game versions every couple years, then putting out a high quality long-lasting product that makes sense, and profiting more on tons of added content rather then redoing it all again and again, with pushing players to pay for yet another version of the same thing. Enough of my WotC rant.
In comparing DDO to Neverwinter, they both claim to be Dungeons & Dragons games. Neverwinter in my opinion is an alright game, although it doesn't fully feel like a Dungeons & Dragons game due to it's play style. DDO feels more true to the P&P game and universe themes. Neverwinter feels more like a generic Action-Based Fantasy MMORPG slapped with a D&D label. In DDO, the Character Classes feel more connected to the D&D universe class system. Neverwinter has nothing but mixed classes, hybrids, no actual pure classes, which is a disappointment. When comparing the stories and staying true to the D&D universe, DDO wins hands down.
Zip
Here is a link to the actual court document http://spielerecht.de/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/Turbine-v.-Atari.pdf (PDF format) filed by Turbine against ATARI.
In it, you will find the details of what went on and why Turbine made some of the changes they did.
Hasbro (WotC) also sued ATARI
http://www.engadget.com/2009/12/18/hasbro-wizards-of-the-coast-sues-atari-over-dungeons-and-dragons-r/
...and ended up recovering the licensing rights from ATARI
https://www.atari.com/sites/default/files/ATA_DisputeResolutionHasbroWizards_20110815.pdf
(There you go MMORPG.com - links to actual source docs you could even use!)
Here's another couple of links to stories (which are a bit more readable)
http://www.engadget.com/2009/12/18/hasbro-wizards-of-the-coast-sues-atari-over-dungeons-and-dragons-r/
http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=26559
But basically this is what happened:
WotC (Hasbro) licensed the rights to ATARI.
ATARI sub licensed to Turbine. Note: ATARI didn't have to go with Turbine - that was their choice.
ATARI then failed to promote the game (DDO: Stormreach)
At some point ATARI decided they would rather be with Cryptic.
Rather than simply say to Turbine "Thanks... but it didn't really work out..." they continued to sign amendments and extensions with Turbine while Turbine made changes in an attempt to keep the game alive.
This includes the FTP conversion to DDO: Ebberron.
But while they were doing that... they were trying to break the contract so they could hand the rights for a D&D MMO to Cryptic.
Meanwhile, not only was ATARI doing sneaky deals with Cryptic about Neverwinter they also sub licensed to Namco Bandai who are Hasbro / WotC competitor!
So, Hasbro sued them too.
ATARI is responsible for a lot of what happened.
Rather than handle things in a professional and business like manner - they tried to be sneaky and 'clever'.
They didn't have to sign with Turbine - but once they did they should have been honest and upfront and met their obligations.
Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.
Just for that bold Cryptic part: Cryptic was just a tool for Atari to quickly grab some extra money and buy time before all goes down.
They got Cryptic (with only CO, and STO in the works), forced them to release STO way too early, quickly made the announcement of Cryptic will make a Neverwinter mmo, then sold them (now with 3 licenses) to PWE.
Back then I'd have said Turbine is luckier, at least they went to WB... but turned out PWE is not that bad either - at least they keep all 3 games open and lately (now that the other two are in decent shape) even giving some money for CO too
Paradox's Diplomacy was another title from around that time - and the Devs there eventually gave a very strong hint that the reason they couldn't put many features in place was because of the contract terms with ATARI.
Particle Systems I-War is another - relegated to a really bad browser based game - but user communities created so many good mods for a decade. Elite: Dangerous in many ways is basically an MMO that looks and feels very much like I-War so again, a missed opportunity?
The list goes on.
ATARI locked those games away to protect an IP and 'potential revenue'.
ATARI became a company focused on money that forgot that the money was generated by people playing games they loved.
Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.