So wait... This scumbag had financial backing all along? He thought "Let's not use all the money from investors, we have to pay them back? Let's use the free money well instead?" I got words for this piece of......... (Alright I'll stop right there before I get a ban.)
It's not news, he stated as much in the original KS video asking for money. It was probably a test to see what kind of hype he'd get or what else they want to add.
Doesn't matter, He had no business asking for money from people when he already had it. I hope this game tanks as a laughable failure.
I disagree Geezer. A lot of successful business people have a lot of money, but they don't risk their financial stability on a business risk. That's really bad business. That's a huge reason why businesses incorporate, to protect people involved and to structure financial accountability rules.
As long as the business is up front and not misleading about it then I don't see a problem with the practice.
In general, I would absolutely agree with you. Except for this particular avenue. This is not why Kickstarter was created and it compromises the basic premise of why we would have needed crowd funding in the 1st place.
I will never, ever EVER, contribute to a crowd funded project and this is one reason why.
So basically smed looks like an idiot putting out this kickstarter expecting people to flock to a project with his name on it. I guess he noticed pretty quick that their goal was not even realistic. Of course someone with 30 years in the industry has access to investors and capital investment. He just wanted to see if he could get some extra quick cash from all the suckers out there who will kickstart damn near anything at this point. He got more than I thought he would, but still nowhere near what he was asking for. I hope this is the beginning of the end for this whole crowdfunding scam. I'm not interested in paying anyone to try and make a game and then they just shrug and walk away when it fails. If your game isn't good enough to get investor backing then why should I put up money with no expectation of any return? Only an idiot would hand over hundreds or even thousands of dollars for a game that only exists in someone's head.
So basically smed looks like an idiot putting out this kickstarter expecting people to flock to a project with his name on it. I guess he noticed pretty quick that their goal was not even realistic. Of course someone with 30 years in the industry has access to investors and capital investment. He just wanted to see if he could get some extra quick cash from all the suckers out there who will kickstart damn near anything at this point. He got more than I thought he would, but still nowhere near what he was asking for. I hope this is the beginning of the end for this whole crowdfunding scam. I'm not interested in paying anyone to try and make a game and then they just shrug and walk away when it fails. If your game isn't good enough to get investor backing then why should I put up money with no expectation of any return? Only an idiot would hand over hundreds or even thousands of dollars for a game that only exists in someone's head.
First off, I think you're right about the name. Pantheon was another that seemingly fell due to a name. Maybe even Shaker. That being said, your assertion about investors is ludicrous. Investors are inherently risk-averse, which means they want to see cookie-cutter, proven companies and proven IP or gameplay mechanics. They don't want to risk their money on innovations to the industry. So in that regard I'll say you're wrong. I think that KS was a good fit for a game like Hero's Song, but I think that they just set the target way too high. I also think that it goes to further prove that people aren't idiots, which seems to be a popular portrayal of people who do back KS games.
It's like watching a clown at a kids birthday party trying to make balloon animals that he keeps letting go of and they fly around making that pfft noise... What a joke. This guy was the CEO of SOE is it any wonder sony sold them and he had to step down after the sell off.
"You CAN'T buy ships for RL money." - MaxBacon
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
I find it fairly adorable how spiteful many people in thisthread is. Disturbing but at the same time adorable, like a 2yo being angry at the TV.
Now i agree that it is sort of a dick move to use Kickstarter as a market analysis tool. But if that got him investors i can only congratulate. The game looks cute, not my style but i am sure there is a market for it.
The irrational anger and degree of spite is disturbing.
I don't see it as a dick move to use the platform as a market analysis tool. That's just how it has evolved (as I explained in my long winded response to Geezer). Their other option is to pay a service like SuperData tens of thousands of dollars for demographics that may not apply. They may have done that anyway as well.
I have to agree with tawess, it is KIND OF a dick move. I mean I agree with you that leveraging a system so you can get a free analysis for your own purposes is a smart move, it does open up the door to less scrupulous people, too. I mean people could use it, back out, and then simply re-direct traffic to their own crowdfunding initiative from their own website.
I'll bet I could go into McDonalds, buy a burger, take a couple bites, go back to the cashier and say it doesn't taste right and that I just want my money back and I'll bet I'd get it back. YES!!! Free food!!!! That will likely only work for a short time, though and, in the process, I end up inconveniencing people who actually have a real problem.
After looking at our funding levels and the reality that we aren't going to reach our funding goals, we've decided that the best thing to do is to end the Kickstarter. We sincerely appreciate all of the support we got from the backers and the Kickstarter community. This was our first Kickstarter and we made mistakes along the way. I want to acknowledge that right up front. We put a lot of time and effort into the Kickstarter, but it's obvious missing things like physical goods hampered our efforts. It's also fair to say because we're early that we didn't have enough gameplay to show the game off enough to get people over the hump.
So where do we go from here? Well the good news is that our Investors are backing us all the way and we're going to get Hero's Song done exactly when we said we would. I'm also happy to say that we've been able to do this without having to take money from publishers, something that was of key importance to us so that we could remain in creative control.
We'll be updating you all along the way.. holding development streams (on Cohhcarnage's stream on Twitch) and being completely transparent with our development process. You'll be hearing from us all the time and we'll be updating our website and all of you on a constant basis as we have cool stuff to show.
Thanks again for all the support you've shown, and thanks for the constructive criticism as well. We took that to heart and we've learned a lot from it.
Kickstarter remains an incredible source of both goodwill and community support, and we'll never forget the kindness our backers showed us.
Thanks and we'll see you soon!
Smed and the Pixelmage Games Team."
That first paragraph from his letter just sounds like 'I was really looking for a cash grab and I like to pretend like while I was on H1Z1 I had zero idea how kickstarters work'
he really is a gubber
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Doesn't matter, He had no business asking for money from people when he already had it. I hope this game tanks as a laughable failure.
I disagree Geezer. A lot of successful business people have a lot of money, but they don't risk their financial stability on a business risk. That's really bad business. That's a huge reason why businesses incorporate, to protect people involved and to structure financial accountability rules.
As long as the business is up front and not misleading about it then I don't see a problem with the practice.
In general, I would absolutely agree with you. Except for this particular avenue. This is not why Kickstarter was created and it compromises the basic premise of why we would have needed crowd funding in the 1st place.
I will never, ever EVER, contribute to a crowd funded project and this is one reason why.
I do see where you're coming from and I don't think it's wrong to disapprove. This isn't the way KS was intended, but it is how the beast has evolved. What is their other choice pay tens of thousands of dollars for professional market analysis that may not be entirely accurate because it's looking at a broader demographic?
My experiences as a crowdfunding and indie game and music supporter have been very enlightening. I no longer go this route because even the "little" guys have gotten greedy with it. And by little guys I mean people who truly didn't have any means to make a dream project a reality. When it started they just wanted the project to be a reality and were happy to be generous for those willing to help. Now it's become an early marketing tool with non-existent deadline accountability and stingy rewards unless you pay hundreds of dollars. The quality of the results have been very dodgy as well.
The next step up were people like Fargo, Jacobs, Garriott, Smedley, McQuaid, Vincke, and other veteran professionals (or their studios) who want to personally make a game publisher funding won't afford. These actually have ended up being the best projects. It's not that these people couldn't necessarily afford it but that they have been using it as a market analysis to decide whether a project is worthy and learn about their demographics. Most all of the projects coming out of this have been of at least acceptable quality and the buy in for the games and music (I didn't include the musician names above) have been mostly reasonable at the low end, but not much better than just waiting it out and buying retail.
So between mediocre indies that I've lost all confidence in and independent veterans whose projects I can just wait for, there is no reason for me to financially support the kickstarters. I can see your moral position, but I don't really moralize this outside of a cut and dried business agreement: what are you offering, what am I getting, and is it worth my time and money.
Oh, there you go again, countering idealism with pragmatism.
I find it fairly adorable how spiteful many people in thisthread is. Disturbing but at the same time adorable, like a 2yo being angry at the TV.
Now i agree that it is sort of a dick move to use Kickstarter as a market analysis tool. But if that got him investors i can only congratulate. The game looks cute, not my style but i am sure there is a market for it.
The irrational anger and degree of spite is disturbing.
I don't see it as a dick move to use the platform as a market analysis tool. That's just how it has evolved (as I explained in my long winded response to Geezer). Their other option is to pay a service like SuperData tens of thousands of dollars for demographics that may not apply. They may have done that anyway as well.
I don't necessarily disagree with you Torval, but I must ask what analysis do you think Smedley received from this?
He didn't get anywhere near his goal (it started off so badly he realized after 24 hours it wouldn't near his goal), yet said he was going to continue the project as planned anyways.
Was there some sort of survey attached to the KS if you chose to back it that focused on what made you back the title? I've never backed anything there, so I honestly don't know much about it. However, it seems that if Smedley was doing it for market analysis, he and his investors looked at the results and decided to pretty much ignore it.
Honestly when i saw his news release for this I laughed a little bit, and then sat in shock when I saw how much money they are asking for for a 2d game. It doesn't surprise me at all that this failed horribly. As far as the Patrick Ruthfuss thing? Yes he's a great author, and I have no doubt he could make some really interesting lore and story. But other than that, the guy knows nothing about rpg's. His interviews drip with inexperience in the market.
My shock is he didnt get we dont want a 2D MMO with permadeath. Im thinking its beyond niche. I just dont see this making it even if he funded it himself.
So basically smed looks like an idiot putting out this kickstarter expecting people to flock to a project with his name on it. I guess he noticed pretty quick that their goal was not even realistic. Of course someone with 30 years in the industry has access to investors and capital investment. He just wanted to see if he could get some extra quick cash from all the suckers out there who will kickstart damn near anything at this point. He got more than I thought he would, but still nowhere near what he was asking for. I hope this is the beginning of the end for this whole crowdfunding scam. I'm not interested in paying anyone to try and make a game and then they just shrug and walk away when it fails. If your game isn't good enough to get investor backing then why should I put up money with no expectation of any return? Only an idiot would hand over hundreds or even thousands of dollars for a game that only exists in someone's head.
First off, I think you're right about the name. Pantheon was another that seemingly fell due to a name. Maybe even Shaker. That being said, your assertion about investors is ludicrous. Investors are inherently risk-averse, which means they want to see cookie-cutter, proven companies and proven IP or gameplay mechanics. They don't want to risk their money on innovations to the industry. So in that regard I'll say you're wrong. I think that KS was a good fit for a game like Hero's Song, but I think that they just set the target way too high. I also think that it goes to further prove that people aren't idiots, which seems to be a popular portrayal of people who do back KS games.
Well yes, in general investors don't love risk, but that doesn't mean none of them will take any risks. Indie games are usually not great investments no doubt about it, but you would think someone like smed would be able to find his own funding. Obviously he already had and was just floating the kickstarter to see how it would go over. He canceled it rather that look stupid when it wasn't funded.
The stereotype of people that throw money at kickstarters being total idiots and suckers is well deserved. I mean if you believe the numbers, over 1 million people gave 100 million to Star Citizen since 2012. I do think it is getting harder to pull off though. If smed did this in 2012 I bet he would have done better. People are getting sick of being scammed by kickstartes finally. Even the dumbest dog will eventually move if you keep kicking him in the face.
I think it was George Carlin that said, "If you think about how stupid the average person is...... now realize that half the people are even more stupid than that...."
Those people are why sites like kickstarter and especially GoFundMe exist.
My shock is he didnt get we dont want a 2D MMO with permadeath. Im thinking its beyond niche. I just dont see this making it even if he funded it himself.
I think having a seperate shard with perma-death would be the most ideal. Sure it's niche but there is a huge population of people that would like that (myself included). A 2D sprite-based MMO on the other hand is not what I want, plenty of games like that already. If anything, i'd like to see another game in the style of Blackmoon Chronicles with the gameplay of UO. That to me would be the perfect game.
At least after this campaign I have learned where the "transparency" lingo came from during the EQ Landmark/Next campaign with SOE.
"Transparency" a word that goes on the list of red flags of games being developed. Thanks SOE and John Smedley for yet again abusing the english language and making a word have very negative meaning, wouldn't be easier to use words already designed for explain this type of situation like..... "scam".
I don't necessarily disagree with you Torval, but I must ask what analysis do you think Smedley received from this?
He didn't get anywhere near his goal (it started off so badly he realized after 24 hours it wouldn't near his goal), yet said he was going to continue the project as planned anyways.
Was there some sort of survey attached to the KS if you chose to back it that focused on what made you back the title? I've never backed anything there, so I honestly don't know much about it. However, it seems that if Smedley was doing it for market analysis, he and his investors looked at the results and decided to pretty much ignore it.
I think he got that whatever demographic comprises the early adopter crowd willing to fund concept projects aren't interested in what he has to offer. I think he also got that the crowd that doesn't normally fund a project but are willing to throw money at an idea they want to see realized aren't there or are unwilling. He might also have seen the message that his name on project has both positive and negative side effects. It may be that the passionate crowd interested in that type of game still hold a grudge, rational or not, against him.
If it had been a success then he might have gotten an idea of what sort of demographic were interested in his project by what other projects they view and support. If Kickstarter gathers browser profile or other tracking information and shares that with projects then they could get an idea of what that demographic does on the internet.
Those are a few pieces of information he could gather that might be relevant to his project design and development.
I understand that, but my questions really come regarding his stated plan going forward.
His statement seems to indicate that, since they got nowhere near the funds they were looking for, they were just going to act like they never had a Kickstarter and continue developing on the same vision as before.
He seems, taken at his word, that he merely thinks he didn't have enough goodies and game play videos and not that the demographic disagreed or in any way wasn't interested in his project. Which may be true to a degree.. However, if I were an investor in his project, such a dismal failure of a crowd-funding campaign would be ringing alarms in my head. Being a 2D game, it's already pretty risky. Given the reputation Smedley has among many, it's even moreso. Add in a spectacularly failed Kickstarter campaign... Who would want to invest?
Successful Kickstarters have failed miserably in the past. Marketing data or no, it's hard to believe anyone themselves would believe in such a project at this point.
It's amusing to me to see people in here shit talking Jsmed's character when you've shelled and shilled for Chris Roberts. Quite a knee slapper.
Yeah, you're right. A beautiful and fully featured project in production versus a shite POS 2D pixel art game IS a real knee slapper of a comparison isn't it!? ROFLMAO you are so funny!
My shock is he didnt get we dont want a 2D MMO with permadeath. Im thinking its beyond niche. I just dont see this making it even if he funded it himself.
I think having a seperate shard with perma-death would be the most ideal. Sure it's niche but there is a huge population of people that would like that (myself included). A 2D sprite-based MMO on the other hand is not what I want, plenty of games like that already. If anything, i'd like to see another game in the style of Blackmoon Chronicles with the gameplay of UO. That to me would be the perfect game.
The few polls on this site show very well, permadeath is something very few people like. You also have a MMO out that has that and from what I have read on this forum. Its supported by a fan base. Who knows, maybe there is a need for another permadeath MMO. I think you are right, a server for that kind of thing would have been a better option if they wanted broad support on their kickstarter. Fail.
I see a lot of hate here for Smed, I have no feelings one way or other for the guy- he seemed like someone who really loved games in his interviews and so forth.
However, leaving that guy aside, Hero's Song looks like a great idea, and the graphics look quite good for what it is. What surprised me was the planned speed of development. According to the kickstarter website the project started in October 2015 and the game is scheduled for release in October 2016, that's an extremely fast turnaround.
I have no problem with the kickstarter. Just because he has investors doesn't mean he already has enough money to make the game. I'm sure he'll still need to secure more funding.
I think it was a mistake though to announce the game and the kickstarter at the same time. I guess he thought that name recognition would be enough, but even with Patrick Rothfuss on board, it's not enough. He needed to show the game first, create some hype, and get an idea of how many people are interested before launching the kickstarter.
Honestly, I didn't know much about this game... then I saw Pat Rothfuss in the video. I knew him before he was a "world famous author". We've had coffee together. Hell, I was working at the copy center and printed the first copy of Name of the Wind for him!
But then, when I write a novel, will he even give me the time of day? NOOOOOO! ...jerk face.
Seriously though, this game sounds kinda cool.... but f*** Rothfuss.
By the way, despite the letter smed wrote implying that he has no experience with how kickstarters work I would like to point out that plenty of games get funded, ask for about less than 1/2 of what he is, do well, and dont offer products as part of the kickstarter.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
You can bash Smed all you want. My two favorite MMOs of all time were both SOE games (SWG / EQ2).
You guys act like he doesn't have corporate investors crawling up his ass 24-7 wanting him to deliver more money. It's not like he's some villain behind the door twisting his mustache.
I'm looking forward to Hero Song. I'm eager to play anything that's not Asian-developed atm. Aion, Tera, ArcheAge, Blade & Soul, Black Desert...
Comments
I will never, ever EVER, contribute to a crowd funded project and this is one reason why.
First off, I think you're right about the name. Pantheon was another that seemingly fell due to a name. Maybe even Shaker. That being said, your assertion about investors is ludicrous. Investors are inherently risk-averse, which means they want to see cookie-cutter, proven companies and proven IP or gameplay mechanics. They don't want to risk their money on innovations to the industry. So in that regard I'll say you're wrong. I think that KS was a good fit for a game like Hero's Song, but I think that they just set the target way too high. I also think that it goes to further prove that people aren't idiots, which seems to be a popular portrayal of people who do back KS games.
Crazkanuk
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Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
----------------
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/$460,000 with virtually the same # of backers as Heros Song.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/herossong/heros-song
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1588672538/pantheon-rise-of-the-fallen
I have to agree with tawess, it is KIND OF a dick move. I mean I agree with you that leveraging a system so you can get a free analysis for your own purposes is a smart move, it does open up the door to less scrupulous people, too. I mean people could use it, back out, and then simply re-direct traffic to their own crowdfunding initiative from their own website.
I'll bet I could go into McDonalds, buy a burger, take a couple bites, go back to the cashier and say it doesn't taste right and that I just want my money back and I'll bet I'd get it back. YES!!! Free food!!!! That will likely only work for a short time, though and, in the process, I end up inconveniencing people who actually have a real problem.
Crazkanuk
----------------
Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
----------------
That first paragraph from his letter just sounds like 'I was really looking for a cash grab and I like to pretend like while I was on H1Z1 I had zero idea how kickstarters work'
he really is a gubber
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
He didn't get anywhere near his goal (it started off so badly he realized after 24 hours it wouldn't near his goal), yet said he was going to continue the project as planned anyways.
Was there some sort of survey attached to the KS if you chose to back it that focused on what made you back the title? I've never backed anything there, so I honestly don't know much about it. However, it seems that if Smedley was doing it for market analysis, he and his investors looked at the results and decided to pretty much ignore it.
The stereotype of people that throw money at kickstarters being total idiots and suckers is well deserved. I mean if you believe the numbers, over 1 million people gave 100 million to Star Citizen since 2012. I do think it is getting harder to pull off though. If smed did this in 2012 I bet he would have done better. People are getting sick of being scammed by kickstartes finally. Even the dumbest dog will eventually move if you keep kicking him in the face.
I think it was George Carlin that said, "If you think about how stupid the average person is...... now realize that half the people are even more stupid than that...."
Those people are why sites like kickstarter and especially GoFundMe exist.
But then, Smed was involved, and at this point that is probably a net negative to any crowdfunding effort.
Plus Smed is hopelessly behind the times, it ain't 1999 anymore when EQ was king.
You'd think that having your "own" company bought out from under you and then fired from the same might be a wake-up call.
But that is Smed for you.
No one can orchestrate a failure like Smed.
"Transparency" a word that goes on the list of red flags of games being developed. Thanks SOE and John Smedley for yet again abusing the english language and making a word have very negative meaning, wouldn't be easier to use words already designed for explain this type of situation like..... "scam".
His statement seems to indicate that, since they got nowhere near the funds they were looking for, they were just going to act like they never had a Kickstarter and continue developing on the same vision as before.
He seems, taken at his word, that he merely thinks he didn't have enough goodies and game play videos and not that the demographic disagreed or in any way wasn't interested in his project. Which may be true to a degree.. However, if I were an investor in his project, such a dismal failure of a crowd-funding campaign would be ringing alarms in my head. Being a 2D game, it's already pretty risky. Given the reputation Smedley has among many, it's even moreso. Add in a spectacularly failed Kickstarter campaign... Who would want to invest?
Successful Kickstarters have failed miserably in the past. Marketing data or no, it's hard to believe anyone themselves would believe in such a project at this point.
At least we never have to worry about smed getting his hands on anything important ever again.
However, leaving that guy aside, Hero's Song looks like a great idea, and the graphics look quite good for what it is. What surprised me was the planned speed of development. According to the kickstarter website the project started in October 2015 and the game is scheduled for release in October 2016, that's an extremely fast turnaround.
I think it was a mistake though to announce the game and the kickstarter at the same time. I guess he thought that name recognition would be enough, but even with Patrick Rothfuss on board, it's not enough. He needed to show the game first, create some hype, and get an idea of how many people are interested before launching the kickstarter.
Honestly, I didn't know much about this game... then I saw Pat Rothfuss in the video. I knew him before he was a "world famous author". We've had coffee together. Hell, I was working at the copy center and printed the first copy of Name of the Wind for him!
But then, when I write a novel, will he even give me the time of day? NOOOOOO! ...jerk face.
Seriously though, this game sounds kinda cool.... but f*** Rothfuss.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
You guys act like he doesn't have corporate investors crawling up his ass 24-7 wanting him to deliver more money. It's not like he's some villain behind the door twisting his mustache.
I'm looking forward to Hero Song. I'm eager to play anything that's not Asian-developed atm. Aion, Tera, ArcheAge, Blade & Soul, Black Desert...