If I understand correctly this is mostly designed as a pvp game. The game involves timed world's that very on length of time. Some short, some long.
There is predominantly little PvE if I go based on the responses from some on mmorpg.
So how is timed skill progression going to work balance wise when your options are limited to mostly pvping?
All items are equally available to each player based on archetype. How is the player that plays from day 1 vrs the 2-3 month late starter not going to always have an advantage over the later starting player? Worse the 6 month 1 year new player how will he compete? And how long will it take for him to complete if it's theoretically possible to compete?
From a time faster skill progression the day 1 player will always have an advantage over any player that starts after them. Always and forever.
If specific skills are required for later content then that content is further gated through time.
This only kind of skill system only works when it is designed around from the start of the games creation. The only reason it works in EVE is because the bigger ship isn't always better and mining is what yields alot of income and can be started relatively early on. The game had options in what the player can participate in.
In other MMOs there is a cap to a players power that can be reached in a relatively reasonable amount of time which creates a light at the end of a tunnel to keep playing. But with a time gated skill progression system with skills going up to 100 there is no catching up there is no light at the end of the tunnel.
I just don't see how a time progression skill based system in a pvp focused game won't have a serious impact on a power creep of long term early starting players thst detract from newer players joining the game because they feel like they can't catch up. Because they can't.
Diminishing returns kid... you get 80% of the power you are going to have for any Archetype you play within a few months... the guy that has been in game from launch will still be working on that last 20%... he will only be a max of 15% better... and he will have better gear crafted and better vessels to play in. This is NOT a game of balancing individual players or archetypes... this is a real MMO where no one on one situation means squat... it is about teamwork and strategic play, resources and holding ground and that takes numbers.
Why would you even bother to play if it plays itself while your offline?
Because leveling the skills isn't the game and most people will probably not even care about getting +5% armor bonus. Players will most likely log into the game for the PvP, to conquer new territories, destroy castles, trade with other players, craft, kills monsters, create new strategies, try to win the campaign... Skill progression may be like an extremely minor incentive to log or not to this kind of game compared to the overall gameplay experience, if it's end up being good ofc.
let me tell that diferently..
Player most likely will be playing crowfall for 2 months.. and then get bored of doing the same shit over over again..
wildstar flop incoming
You do know that the Campaign Worlds (servers) will reset and new Campaign Worlds will open constantly with different rule sets and objectives... winners will be declared and awards given (mats for crafting) and the whole thing restarts again with a fresh new world to join and explore... meanwhile you get to keep gaining in a vast skill tree that makes every player very different and players will have vastly different archetype vessels to craft and play as needed for each situation and campaign. You are being short sighted about how much these devs at Artcraft know about mmos. They are players like us and are building this game WITH us the whole way to have player driven content and GvG intrigue. No, bosses, no quests, no little kiddie play... This game is for real adult PvP gamers.
If we transpose this to League of Legends (more or less accurate), it would be like if a VIP player could switch during a match between level 18 Soraka, lvl 18 Ashe and lvl 18 Annie, depending on the situation, while a non-VIP player would have to stick only to a level 18 Soraka (or be disadvantaged by switching to lvl 1 Ashe and lvl 1 Annie).
So wrong.
When you join a campaign, you pick what you are bringing. All this does is make it so you have more choices PRIOR TO JOINING. Once you are in, you dont get to switch your archetype.
If we transpose this to League of Legends (more or less accurate), it would be like if a VIP player could switch during a match between level 18 Soraka, lvl 18 Ashe and lvl 18 Annie, depending on the situation, while a non-VIP player would have to stick only to a level 18 Soraka (or be disadvantaged by switching to lvl 1 Ashe and lvl 1 Annie).
So wrong.
When you join a campaign, you pick what you are bringing. All this does is make it so you have more choices PRIOR TO JOINING. Once you are in, you dont get to switch your archetype.
If we transpose this to League of Legends (more or less accurate), it would be like if a VIP player could switch during a match between level 18 Soraka, lvl 18 Ashe and lvl 18 Annie, depending on the situation, while a non-VIP player would have to stick only to a level 18 Soraka (or be disadvantaged by switching to lvl 1 Ashe and lvl 1 Annie).
So wrong.
When you join a campaign, you pick what you are bringing. All this does is make it so you have more choices PRIOR TO JOINING. Once you are in, you dont get to switch your archetype.
You have to get a new vessel in the campaign with the archetype and class you want, but yes you can switch archetypes during the campaign. Switching vessels during a fight will draw major penalties though. You'd likely be better off switching between fights, even if you're losing the fight you're in.
15. HOW WILL MY CHARACTER BE UNIQUE IF WE CAN TRAIN ALL THE SAME SKILLS ON THE CROW?
While each player will be able to train the same skills at the crow level, the sheer amount of time and number of branches that a player can explore on each skill tree will cause crows to be dramatically different.
When you factor in all the different elements that can be applied or customized—passive training, advantage & disadvantage runestones, class promotions, vessel quality, disciplines runestones—the result is staggering. We expect an extremely wide variety of both vessels and playstyles.
While I think the offline training method is a lazy way to do it, I can't argue with the fact that it will provide some reduction in the disparity between new players and old timers. I think there is some bias thought going on here in that they underestimate how much of an advantage a 2 year vet will have over a newbie. Just because the first 20% takes the same amount of time as the last 2% we believe they can reasonably catch up, but factor that for X number of skills that the vet already has. Newbie will be at 20% on 20 skills while the vet will be at 100% on 20 skills. That seems to me like a huge advantage, but they haven't actually shown us the numbers so it's tough to tell exactly how much of difference 100% makes vs 20%.
In regards to what I quoted from the FAQ, this all sounds well and good but I just see it as another GW1 fiasco. Hundreds of skills, plus all the other options for "variety" results in a massive amount of builds, but after a few months players will have crunched the numbers and will know the optimum builds for your standard "roles" and you'll end up with a much smaller number of "viable options" even with the changing rule-sets, how long will it take for players to have the "optimum setup" for each map and each rule set? Then like most pvp games, the devs will patch and buff/nerf different skills/items/etc and start the endless cycle of trying to make everything viable but never succeeding. If they can, more power to them but they are really setting themselves up for a rough ride.
Finally I want to comment on the idea of this is a "team balanced" game. So was GW2, and GW1 for that matter, you can't even duel in them. WoW has dueling I believe, but from what I understand all the pvp arena's are teams. DAoC had dueling, but was ultimately a "team based" game. Point being, PvP in every MMORPG is intended to be team based, yet you can go to any of these forums and you'll find that 90% of the PvP section is about individual class balance. Me vs You. So if your trying to defend a system, for any game, based on the idea that it's supposed to be a "Team Based" PvP system, I commend you, but most people don't care and/or have no idea how to comprehend that concept.
Haven't followed this game too closely. I know it is pvp focused, but is there any pve like open world dungeons and the like?
I dig the art style and huge skill choice selection, but I cam rarely just pvp all the time. Would love pve in the open world with the risk of pvp ambush or competition for a kill.
Haven't followed this game too closely. I know it is pvp focused, but is there any pve like open world dungeons and the like?
I dig the art style and huge skill choice selection, but I cam rarely just pvp all the time. Would love pve in the open world with the risk of pvp ambush or competition for a kill.
There will be big ones such as Wyverns or Gryphons (pics below) which might be considered miniboses!?
Also, loads of relatively "smaller" monsters, but their function will be mostly to increase the level of threat, to annoy and guard some important places. I doubt any of these will be as tough as PvE dungeon bosses, the main thing will be that it all happens on the batleground.
PS if you want to find out more, you can check this old thread!?
So.. create account, start game, select skill tree, log off, return in a year.
Any chance we can earn gold and have fun offline as well? That way I can just go ahead and free up hard drive space. I mean; why can't we just assign AI behavior to the character and get a progress report of how well they are doing - say once a month?
Or maybe just give all the skills to everyone at the start, that way we are even without having to take too many trips around the sun...
In all seriousness, a mix of online/offline skill progression would have been a breath of fresh air. What you're offering is stale farts. It's like you all gathered in a conference room and talked about how you could make skill progression the most unimpressive, unexciting and non-immersive experience possible - and someone nailed it!
Its not offline training. Skills train whether you are online or offline. Its simply passive training.
I guess people are just too used to the quest/exp grinders to even fathom trying something else. I thought the point of the game was to actually play the game and have fun. Not have to grind and play the boring part before you can even think about playing the actual real part of the game.
So.. create account, start game, select skill tree, log off, return in a year.
Any chance we can earn gold and have fun offline as well? That way I can just go ahead and free up hard drive space. I mean; why can't we just assign AI behavior to the character and get a progress report of how well they are doing - say once a month?
Or maybe just give all the skills to everyone at the start, that way we are even without having to take too many trips around the sun...
In all seriousness, a mix of online/offline skill progression would have been a breath of fresh air. What you're offering is stale farts. It's like you all gathered in a conference room and talked about how you could make skill progression the most unimpressive, unexciting and non-immersive experience possible - and someone nailed it!
This comment is adorable.
If you want to grind skills and exp, go to WoW or similar games. If you actually want to join in the fun, play the game. THAT'S where the FUN is. If you create an account, select a tree, and log off for a year you shouldn't have made an account in the first place. We're getting tired of grinding! The name of the game isn't grinding. It's all about PvP and those who love to PvP. Otherwise, stick to the little bit of PvE there is or PLAY ANOTHER GAME.
So.. create account, start game, select skill tree, log off, return in a year.
Any chance we can earn gold and have fun offline as well? That way I can just go ahead and free up hard drive space. I mean; why can't we just assign AI behavior to the character and get a progress report of how well they are doing - say once a month?
Or maybe just give all the skills to everyone at the start, that way we are even without having to take too many trips around the sun...
In all seriousness, a mix of online/offline skill progression would have been a breath of fresh air. What you're offering is stale farts. It's like you all gathered in a conference room and talked about how you could make skill progression the most unimpressive, unexciting and non-immersive experience possible - and someone nailed it!
This comment is adorable.
If you want to grind skills and exp, go to WoW or similar games. If you actually want to join in the fun, play the game. THAT'S where the FUN is. If you create an account, select a tree, and log off for a year you shouldn't have made an account in the first place. We're getting tired of grinding! The name of the game isn't grinding. It's all about PvP and those who love to PvP. Otherwise, stick to the little bit of PvE there is or PLAY ANOTHER GAME.
OK, so why not give all the skills to begin with? Lets skip the bullshit and get down to it; right? I would tell you why, but you seem fragile, and overly emotional.
To add some work to it without making it 'grind all day' kind of thing. Not to mention that it's not like the skills go up that fast and if you were logged off for a year you'd max... What? Two? Three skills? The fact that you'd want the skills and not play the game doesn't make much since, especially when you que up a couple of skills and never go on again.
This is like watching the hype for Wildstar, all over again.
Retired: WoW (Cataclysm), SWTOR (pre-F2P), Champions Online, City of Heroes, RIFT, Age of Conan (pre-F2P) On Hold: FFXIV Heavensward, Blade and Soul, Firefall
Diminishing returns kid... you get 80% of the power you are going to have for any Archetype you play within a few months... the guy that has been in game from launch will still be working on that last 20%... he will only be a max of 15% better... and he will have better gear crafted and better vessels to play in. This is NOT a game of balancing individual players or archetypes... this is a real MMO where no one on one situation means squat... it is about teamwork and strategic play, resources and holding ground and that takes numbers.
So much this. The way this system is being implemented will not greatly favor the player that has been playing for a long time for the reason mentioned by this poster. They are borrowing a lot of ideas from EVE which in my opinion has some of the deepest systems in any MMO to date I think the time investment in EVE to become competitive was a little to extreme for my taste so I hope they don't go to that extreme with it but I think Asheron's Call which is another title that they are taking a lot of ideas from had an amazing skill system second only to maybe EVE. The way skills developed in Asheron's Call a character had 80% of their skills learned by probably around level 75-80 but there was no skill cap on how high skills could go after max level which was level 126. However once you got to the softcap on skills the cost to raise them became very expensive which greatly limited how high you could get them. What this did is create an amazing PVP environment. By level 75 or so you were not the strongest character obviously but you could at least defend yourself and if you were skilled it was not rare to see level 75 mages owning people much higher level then they were depending on the skill of the PVPer.
The focus of this game as has been mentioned by other posters in this thread is PVP. The developers have already given their stance on grinding and I completely agree. I've heard people say in this thread that a timed system is developer laziness. Well how is having players grind thousands of useless NPC mobs not developer laziness? Grind is not content no matter how loud you say it. Grind is a variation on whack a mole and its about time a developer realizes how stupid a concept it really is. Its nothing more than that and shows zero skill as a player and certainly isn't fun so why have it in a game that is meant to be played for enjoyment. The challenge or fun aspect of this game will be all the political struggle and intrigue between guilds and the content that we as players make for ourselves interacting with each other. All the PVE content is just a means to reach the end goal of PVP. I know myself as a person that has been a huge fan of PVP since Darktide whenever I choose a game I'm thinking how much useless crap are these developers going to have me do before I can go out and have some fun PVPing with my guild members? The developers for Crowfall have decided that shouldn't be a question that's raised in their game and I think that's amazing. There are many grindy games on the market that will allow you to grind for hours on end until your hearts content and that may be a better idea for all the whack a mole lovers out there.
The game is OWPVP pretty much, unapologetically, so if you're a carebear just stand down. Every world has a different type of OWPVP ruleset of varying chaos w/ free for all being the most dangerous. Don't be trying to compare it to League of Legends because your brain can't categorize it any other way. What they're doing is creating a space where worlds and sieges can end and begin again to shake things up from permanent dominance and slow death of servers.
It remains to be seen how everything will play out but they're attempting to be daring and are willing to take the win or loss that goes with the risk. I commend ArtCraft for this. I'm not buying in until I see more of course, but they've been pretty transparent with their intentions.
"As far as the forum code of conduct, I would think it's a bit outdated and in need of a refre *CLOSED*"
Sad leveling system because no matter how epic your quest was or epic campaign your character doesn't grow in experience. Imagine the same system in Pen&paper D&D. "nope sorry no exp from this final quest, you have to play two more hours for exp".
Which brings me to the next point, the passive system is great to keep players at bay. In EvE you have to pay monthly to keep this going which is a huge cash grab. No matter how much you grind the exp is on a fixed time Hence why they say they don't know and don't care how long it takes to level all skills up in CF. As long as the players are stuck leveling passive slowly. You want next skill? oh to bad it will take you X amount days to get it and nothing you can do. You want to catch up with your friends ? Oh to bad you started months later, you will have to wait X months when he sets his slower skill, so you can catch up but never truly catch up.
Haha that video is very accurate on how leveling will feel. And how leveling feels in EvE already XD Time based(passive) leveling is the worst grind of them all, since you have no saying on it. Just accept it and you can only "level" gear or loot. Which is ideal for loot hoarders.
Comments
Diminishing returns kid... you get 80% of the power you are going to have for any Archetype you play within a few months... the guy that has been in game from launch will still be working on that last 20%... he will only be a max of 15% better... and he will have better gear crafted and better vessels to play in. This is NOT a game of balancing individual players or archetypes... this is a real MMO where no one on one situation means squat... it is about teamwork and strategic play, resources and holding ground and that takes numbers.
You do know that the Campaign Worlds (servers) will reset and new Campaign Worlds will open constantly with different rule sets and objectives... winners will be declared and awards given (mats for crafting) and the whole thing restarts again with a fresh new world to join and explore... meanwhile you get to keep gaining in a vast skill tree that makes every player very different and players will have vastly different archetype vessels to craft and play as needed for each situation and campaign. You are being short sighted about how much these devs at Artcraft know about mmos. They are players like us and are building this game WITH us the whole way to have player driven content and GvG intrigue. No, bosses, no quests, no little kiddie play... This game is for real adult PvP gamers.
So wrong.
When you join a campaign, you pick what you are bringing. All this does is make it so you have more choices PRIOR TO JOINING. Once you are in, you dont get to switch your archetype.
So wrong.
When you join a campaign, you pick what you are bringing. All this does is make it so you have more choices PRIOR TO JOINING. Once you are in, you dont get to switch your archetype.
Players can switch from one archetype to another during a campaign. http://crowfall.com/en/faq/crowsandvessels/
I see and does that mean I'm going to pay my boss too then?
So wrong.
When you join a campaign, you pick what you are bringing. All this does is make it so you have more choices PRIOR TO JOINING. Once you are in, you dont get to switch your archetype.
You have to get a new vessel in the campaign with the archetype and class you want, but yes you can switch archetypes during the campaign. Switching vessels during a fight will draw major penalties though. You'd likely be better off switching between fights, even if you're losing the fight you're in.
While I think the offline training method is a lazy way to do it, I can't argue with the fact that it will provide some reduction in the disparity between new players and old timers. I think there is some bias thought going on here in that they underestimate how much of an advantage a 2 year vet will have over a newbie. Just because the first 20% takes the same amount of time as the last 2% we believe they can reasonably catch up, but factor that for X number of skills that the vet already has. Newbie will be at 20% on 20 skills while the vet will be at 100% on 20 skills. That seems to me like a huge advantage, but they haven't actually shown us the numbers so it's tough to tell exactly how much of difference 100% makes vs 20%.
In regards to what I quoted from the FAQ, this all sounds well and good but I just see it as another GW1 fiasco. Hundreds of skills, plus all the other options for "variety" results in a massive amount of builds, but after a few months players will have crunched the numbers and will know the optimum builds for your standard "roles" and you'll end up with a much smaller number of "viable options" even with the changing rule-sets, how long will it take for players to have the "optimum setup" for each map and each rule set? Then like most pvp games, the devs will patch and buff/nerf different skills/items/etc and start the endless cycle of trying to make everything viable but never succeeding. If they can, more power to them but they are really setting themselves up for a rough ride.
Finally I want to comment on the idea of this is a "team balanced" game. So was GW2, and GW1 for that matter, you can't even duel in them. WoW has dueling I believe, but from what I understand all the pvp arena's are teams. DAoC had dueling, but was ultimately a "team based" game. Point being, PvP in every MMORPG is intended to be team based, yet you can go to any of these forums and you'll find that 90% of the PvP section is about individual class balance. Me vs You. So if your trying to defend a system, for any game, based on the idea that it's supposed to be a "Team Based" PvP system, I commend you, but most people don't care and/or have no idea how to comprehend that concept.
Haven't followed this game too closely. I know it is pvp focused, but is there any pve like open world dungeons and the like?
I dig the art style and huge skill choice selection, but I cam rarely just pvp all the time. Would love pve in the open world with the risk of pvp ambush or competition for a kill.
Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
Also, loads of relatively "smaller" monsters, but their function will be mostly to increase the level of threat, to annoy and guard some important places. I doubt any of these will be as tough as PvE dungeon bosses, the main thing will be that it all happens on the batleground.
PS if you want to find out more, you can check this old thread!?
Its not offline training. Skills train whether you are online or offline. Its simply passive training.
I guess people are just too used to the quest/exp grinders to even fathom trying something else. I thought the point of the game was to actually play the game and have fun. Not have to grind and play the boring part before you can even think about playing the actual real part of the game.
This comment is adorable.
If you want to grind skills and exp, go to WoW or similar games. If you actually want to join in the fun, play the game. THAT'S where the FUN is. If you create an account, select a tree, and log off for a year you shouldn't have made an account in the first place. We're getting tired of grinding! The name of the game isn't grinding. It's all about PvP and those who love to PvP. Otherwise, stick to the little bit of PvE there is or PLAY ANOTHER GAME.
To add some work to it without making it 'grind all day' kind of thing. Not to mention that it's not like the skills go up that fast and if you were logged off for a year you'd max... What? Two? Three skills? The fact that you'd want the skills and not play the game doesn't make much since, especially when you que up a couple of skills and never go on again.
On Hold: FFXIV Heavensward, Blade and Soul, Firefall
Diminishing returns kid... you get 80% of the power you are going to have for any Archetype you play within a few months... the guy that has been in game from launch will still be working on that last 20%... he will only be a max of 15% better... and he will have better gear crafted and better vessels to play in. This is NOT a game of balancing individual players or archetypes... this is a real MMO where no one on one situation means squat... it is about teamwork and strategic play, resources and holding ground and that takes numbers.
So much this. The way this system is being implemented will not greatly favor the player that has been playing for a long time for the reason mentioned by this poster. They are borrowing a lot of ideas from EVE which in my opinion has some of the deepest systems in any MMO to date I think the time investment in EVE to become competitive was a little to extreme for my taste so I hope they don't go to that extreme with it but I think Asheron's Call which is another title that they are taking a lot of ideas from had an amazing skill system second only to maybe EVE. The way skills developed in Asheron's Call a character had 80% of their skills learned by probably around level 75-80 but there was no skill cap on how high skills could go after max level which was level 126. However once you got to the softcap on skills the cost to raise them became very expensive which greatly limited how high you could get them. What this did is create an amazing PVP environment. By level 75 or so you were not the strongest character obviously but you could at least defend yourself and if you were skilled it was not rare to see level 75 mages owning people much higher level then they were depending on the skill of the PVPer.
The focus of this game as has been mentioned by other posters in this thread is PVP. The developers have already given their stance on grinding and I completely agree. I've heard people say in this thread that a timed system is developer laziness. Well how is having players grind thousands of useless NPC mobs not developer laziness? Grind is not content no matter how loud you say it. Grind is a variation on whack a mole and its about time a developer realizes how stupid a concept it really is. Its nothing more than that and shows zero skill as a player and certainly isn't fun so why have it in a game that is meant to be played for enjoyment. The challenge or fun aspect of this game will be all the political struggle and intrigue between guilds and the content that we as players make for ourselves interacting with each other. All the PVE content is just a means to reach the end goal of PVP. I know myself as a person that has been a huge fan of PVP since Darktide whenever I choose a game I'm thinking how much useless crap are these developers going to have me do before I can go out and have some fun PVPing with my guild members? The developers for Crowfall have decided that shouldn't be a question that's raised in their game and I think that's amazing. There are many grindy games on the market that will allow you to grind for hours on end until your hearts content and that may be a better idea for all the whack a mole lovers out there.
It remains to be seen how everything will play out but they're attempting to be daring and are willing to take the win or loss that goes with the risk. I commend ArtCraft for this. I'm not buying in until I see more of course, but they've been pretty transparent with their intentions.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Which brings me to the next point, the passive system is great to keep players at bay. In EvE you have to pay monthly to keep this going which is a huge cash grab. No matter how much you grind the exp is on a fixed time
Time based(passive) leveling is the worst grind of them all, since you have no saying on it. Just accept it and you can only "level" gear or loot. Which is ideal for loot hoarders.