Being active in the game is how you would increase your fame, and therefore also going to increase your spirit loss if you die. The more active, the more fame, the more impact if you die, the more money it costs ultimately. The 'earn to play' model may well adjust that, and I hope it does, but the information we have so far from Developers Journals means that I would agree there is currently an impact from actively engaging in the world and becoming successful.
Perhaps, we are just going to have to agree to disagree on that one.
Being active in the game is how you would increase your fame, and therefore also going to increase your spirit loss if you die. The more active, the more fame, the more impact if you die, the more money it costs ultimately. The 'earn to play' model may well adjust that, and I hope it does, but the information we have so far from Developers Journals means that I would agree there is currently an impact from actively engaging in the world and becoming successful.
Perhaps, we are just going to have to agree to disagree on that one.
What Im trying to say is activity does not equal death. It is 100% false to say "Technically with this game, you are being charged more money the more active you become in the game," because being active has no impact on the amount you die. This game charges players based on how much they die NOT how active they are. Its not a case of agree to disagree.
I do not think anyone is saying you will die more, just that those deaths cost more. If a player who is actively engaging in the world earns more fame and they die the same number of times as someone who is unknown it will cost them more. Looking at someone just one fame level higher, so only 1.5 times the average fame, if they die once a week they get a months less play time then they would if they did not progress in that way and remained unknown.
Being active doesnt mean youll die at all. Its entirely possible to have the highest fame rating, be active in the story AND not die. Therefore the game does NOT charge more for being more active. It charges more based on dying, not activity. They are two different things.
If you never died your fame would have no impact. That is true.
Unfortunately, we know that Elyria is a dangerous place. How likely is it that someone will make it through a year of play time without a single death? Do you think that chance is lessened still if you are active in the story, in places of power, fighting the good fight, or pushing at the boundaries of crafting? A single death means the second part of spirit loss comes into effect, fame. So I do agree they are separate, but I think it is best when discussing features to look at how they affect the majority rather than edge cases.
Edit: Just to say at this point we might be circling so, I shall leave my comments on the topic at that. I just want to add I do think the Developers are aware of the concerns some of us have on the topic and I hope to see them addressed in a future Developer Journal.
Call me CoE ignorant if you want, but I keep seeing people mention how it is so innovative, and the examples they seem to use involve perma-death and lack of end game content. I find this odd, considering we've had both of these things in MMO's before. So, I don't really understand what is so innovative about it. To me, it just seems like another one of the countless sandbox MMO's from a poor developer, that ends up getting all this hype, only to crash and burn, or turn out as vaporware.
Call me CoE ignorant if you want, but I keep seeing people mention how it is so innovative, and the examples they seem to use involve perma-death and lack of end game content. I find this odd, considering we've had both of these things in MMO's before. So, I don't really understand what is so innovative about it. To me, it just seems like another one of the countless sandbox MMO's from a poor developer, that ends up getting all this hype, only to crash and burn, or turn out as vaporware.
What am I missing?
Define end content?
because CoE has a ever changing story and even disregarding the story the players themselves shaping the world.
Sign up for Chronicles of Elyria here don't forget to use my friend code - B4ACB3
Call me CoE ignorant if you want, but I keep seeing people mention how it is so innovative, and the examples they seem to use involve perma-death and lack of end game content. I find this odd, considering we've had both of these things in MMO's before. So, I don't really understand what is so innovative about it. To me, it just seems like another one of the countless sandbox MMO's from a poor developer, that ends up getting all this hype, only to crash and burn, or turn out as vaporware.
What am I missing?
i would say nothing. it is as u said another sandbox mmo, but some features are totaly new and some other at least i dident have seen them yet in the games i played so far. for that im hoping this game will be "the" next big one that i gonna play for years never getting tired about it.
yes ofc its hype and i will try to keep myself cool and the hell not gonna buy myself into alpha for 100+ bugs
Call me CoE ignorant if you want, but I keep seeing people mention how it is so innovative, and the examples they seem to use involve perma-death and lack of end game content. I find this odd, considering we've had both of these things in MMO's before. So, I don't really understand what is so innovative about it. To me, it just seems like another one of the countless sandbox MMO's from a poor developer, that ends up getting all this hype, only to crash and burn, or turn out as vaporware.
What am I missing?
Families and bloodlines, an aging system, a talent system; i don't think i've seen versions of these in other games.
Permadeath has been attempted before but not like this.
yes ofc its hype and i will try to keep myself cool and the hell not gonna buy myself into alpha for 100+ bugs
Do you know the intention of an Alpha is to find those bugs and fix them before release? Now if you said you don't like to play in Alpha's and will wait until Launch... that's different, but I read your comment as if you think it's not normal for Alpha's to have bugs.
Unfortunately Alpha is the new 'early play' mentality and many people use it to experience the game ahead of others and not contribute to a games development with constructive feedback.
Visit the Chronicles of Elyria official site and the Official Wiki... an upcoming MMO from Soulbound Studios with real consequences to your actions. Finite Resources, WYSIWYG looting to player created and maintained maps and a deep modular crafting system. So much more that hasn't been said, ask questions! Post your thoughts! Spread the word of COE!
If you haven't yet, register with my referrer code on the official website: B0E240
@DAS1337 There really is so much to this game that your not really going to get the full scope of it from anyone posting a forum comment. CoE is really building this from the ground up in a way that I haven't seen before. As you start to read about and watch YouTube info on its systems you really start to understand how they are all intertwined together. Yes it's pre-alpha, yes we don't have alot of concrete info yet but the community that has dug into the game so far sees such a huge potential and I whole heartedly agree.
I have no doubt that CoE has the chance to change the industry and like someone above said already, if we as players don't stand up and support a game that attempts to break the cookie cutter epidemic then we deserve what we get.
I encourage any naysayer to do their homework, then comeback and give an honest assessment.
Call me CoE ignorant if you want, but I keep seeing people mention how it is so innovative, and the examples they seem to use involve perma-death and lack of end game content. I find this odd, considering we've had both of these things in MMO's before. So, I don't really understand what is so innovative about it. To me, it just seems like another one of the countless sandbox MMO's from a poor developer, that ends up getting all this hype, only to crash and burn, or turn out as vaporware.
What am I missing?
Define end content?
because CoE has a ever changing story and even disregarding the story the players themselves shaping the world.
Every sandbox promises players the ability to shape the world. I've been watching them since UO in 97. It's the same thing every time. Then it ends up being a pile of crap. Every time. These kickstarter dev teams focus so much on innovative features that they forget to actually make a good game. Maybe this is the exception, I don't know. But I don't see it.
Families and bloodlines? Meh. What exactly does that mean? So your next character can carry over certain traits? I really don't find that any more interesting than say, ESO's champion point system that allows you to make new characters more efficient. It's just given to you in a different form.
Aging? Meh. I can see why realism buffs would like this, but not a casual gamer. Not even a casual sandbox gamer. Hell, I love sandboxes and I wish I could finally see another good one, because it's been nearly 20 years. But that does nothing for my interest in a game. My character ages, great. And?
Talent systems are in literally every MMO ever.
I know I'm responding to multiple people in this post, but I didn't feel like making a response that spans the entire length of this page. Ultimately, my point here is, MMO's don't really innovate any more. I understand why most of you guys are caught up in it, but I've been around the block. I'm an old man when it comes to MMO's, and all I want is a good sandbox. EVE is about the only one, but it's a spreadsheet game. Just give me a good game. Everything else means nothing.
Every sandbox promises players the ability to shape the world. I've been watching them since UO in 97. It's the same thing every time. Then it ends up being a pile of crap. Every time. These kickstarter dev teams focus so much on innovative features that they forget to actually make a good game. Maybe this is the exception, I don't know. But I don't see it.
Families and bloodlines? Meh. What exactly does that mean? So your next character can carry over certain traits? I really don't find that any more interesting than say, ESO's champion point system that allows you to make new characters more efficient. It's just given to you in a different form.
Aging? Meh. I can see why realism buffs would like this, but not a casual gamer. Not even a casual sandbox gamer. Hell, I love sandboxes and I wish I could finally see another good one, because it's been nearly 20 years. But that does nothing for my interest in a game. My character ages, great. And?
Talent systems are in literally every MMO ever.
I know I'm responding to multiple people in this post, but I didn't feel like making a response that spans the entire length of this page. Ultimately, my point here is, MMO's don't really innovate any more. I understand why most of you guys are caught up in it, but I've been around the block. I'm an old man when it comes to MMO's, and all I want is a good sandbox. EVE is about the only one, but it's a spreadsheet game. Just give me a good game. Everything else means nothing.
I hear ya. I can't say I was around for the UO heyday but I know that feeling of repeated disappointment with sandboxes. I think the last one I truly enjoyed was Salem Online (permadeath, open world city building, virtually no safezones, very in-depth crafting system) but they had an issue with older players characters becoming unstoppable demigods whose power could virtually never be reached, and i wasn't a fan of the pvp.
Regarding the families; the families are sort of a social support system that promote socializing between players that otherwise might never meet. There are a variety of other in-game perks and boons associated with being in a family and the idea is that it encourages community building, something a lot of mmos fail or ignore to address completely.
The bloodline thing softens the blow of permadeath by giving a skill ramp so if your father was a great swordsman when he died, you can become a great swordsman even faster than he did, etc. It also gives you the chance to inherit a lot of your "fathers" possessions (your old possessions) which also softens the permadeath blow. I think a lot of people also like the roleplay idea behind continuing the lineage of your former characters, so that even in permadeath, they keep a connection to someone they put a lot of their heart and soul in.
The aging mechanic is really critical to the game's permadeath and family system. They're kind of mutually dependent on each other - if you don't naturally age and you never leave your house, you might never die and thus you never permadie, which breaks down the continuity of a realistic game world.
On the flipside, permadeath of your character from old age gives you the chance to start a fresh character and maybe go in a completely different direction, giving you the chance to branch out and "start fresh", to make your story anew. Additionally, because you are guaranteed to die of old age, even if it takes a full year+ IRL, the game is ensured at least some financial support from even the safest of players.
The looming perma death of your character also gives extremely heavy weight to the decisions you make in game. Your choices matter, and riskier choices bring you closer to permadeath, but maybe at a possibly high reward. You can't get that if you have infinite respawn.
Talent systems as they are iterated in this game ... I don't know of any other game that's tried this. Once upon a time, legend tells of SWG randomly giving some few players Force Sensitivity early in its inception. Thats the closest example i can think of - except in CoE, it gets recycled through different characters, thus giving even the newest player a chance at having a cool talent instead of all the oldest accounts hogging them.
Suffice to say, I think CoE does have some really innovative ideas, but realistically speaking, they may have to cut back on some of these for their initial release and add them later. We know things like permadeath, aging and the talent system are core and won't be compromised on, but I believe others might get cut before release and be added post-release.
@DAS1337 There really is so much to this game that your not really going to get the full scope of it from anyone posting a forum comment. CoE is really building this from the ground up in a way that I haven't seen before. As you start to read about and watch YouTube info on its systems you really start to understand how they are all intertwined together. Yes it's pre-alpha, yes we don't have alot of concrete info yet but the community that has dug into the game so far sees such a huge potential and I whole heartedly agree.
I have no doubt that CoE has the chance to change the industry and like someone above said already, if we as players don't stand up and support a game that attempts to break the cookie cutter epidemic then we deserve what we get.
I encourage any naysayer to do their homework, then comeback and give an honest assessment.
Seriously
You want an honest assessment? Simple.
Soulbound Studios should have kept their mouths shut until they were much, much farther along in the development of CoE. Now the expectations are too high for them to attain and the game will be another Pathfinder Online.
its popular because its being hyped. new upcoming games get hyped to the point of absurdity and they get popular.
IMPORTANT: Please keep all replies to my posts about GAMING. Please no negative or backhanded comments directed at me personally. If you are going to post a reply that includes how you feel about me, please don't bother replying & just ignore my post instead. I'm on this forum to talk about GAMING. Thank you.
Like 80% of the games coming in the next 3 years or so are all open PvP sandboxes with hardcore punishing mechanics. Perma-death, full looting, loss of property and experience and whatever. Most will fail, if they ever get to launch. Not only because they'll mostly be bad games, but also because they are all stupidly going after the same niche audience. There are only so many players that want that type of game, and it ain't that many.
This is a developer backlash from the huge boom in the genre in the last decade where everyone thought they could make a big-budget WoW clone theme park that would garner 10 million subs. Most of those (if not all) failed miserably, and now the big money in the video game industry is gun shy about this genre.
In super slow motion, most developers have decided to swing to the exact opposite game design, and are all scrounging for funding any way they can get it, and they think this qualifies as "innovation" or original thought. All the theme parks with level-based advancement failed... so let's make a sandbox with skill-based advancement! WOW, it's genius. The design of any game is only one part of its success or failure. Execution is also important.
The truly good games will continue to be few and far between, sadly. "Me too" has always been a terrible business decision. Why are people hyped? Because when it comes right down to it, people are dumb.
Like 80% of the games coming in the next 3 years or so are all open PvP sandboxes with hardcore punishing mechanics. Perma-death, full looting, loss of property and experience and whatever. Most will fail, if they ever get to launch. Not only because they'll mostly be bad games, but also because they are all stupidly going after the same niche audience. There are only so many players that want that type of game, and it ain't that many.
This is a developer backlash from the huge boom in the genre in the last decade where everyone thought they could make a big-budget WoW clone theme park that would garner 10 million subs. Most of those (if not all) failed miserably, and now the big money in the video game industry is gun shy about this genre.
In super slow motion, most developers have decided to swing to the exact opposite game design, and are all scrounging for funding any way they can get it, and they think this qualifies as "innovation" or original thought. All the theme parks with level-based advancement failed... so let's make a sandbox with skill-based advancement! WOW, it's genius. The design of any game is only one part of its success or failure. Execution is also important.
The truly good games will continue to be few and far between, sadly. "Me too" has always been a terrible business decision. Why are people hyped? Because when it comes right down to it, people are dumb.
What other games are aiming at sandbox open-world pvp with full looting / permadeath? Serious question - I would like to check them out as well. Crowfall is the only other mmo that even marginally holds my interest besides CoE.
BDO is nothing to write home about, Camelot Unchained looks like a high-fantasy Planetside 2, Gloria victis looks desynced and clunky, and Revival has this weird pay-money-for-in-game-real-estate i'm not that into.
I don't think the push towards sandbox mmos comes from greed. As far as i can tell, the developers i hear talking about the games they are making like Crowfall and CoE were players of games like UO that want to return to that era. For better or worse, I believe them when they say they want a sandbox mmo like that again out of intrinsic interest.
The fate of small indy projects is not all that dark. There are success stories with a score of projects whose developers were able to stay within realistic limits and expectations.
A text written by Path of Exile developers about their production and business mentality offers some insight into one possible recipe for success.
With Path of Exile, we’ve targeted a specific niche group of gamers who
enjoy online action RPGs with dark fantasy art styles. We are members of
this gaming subset, and by specifically catering to it we will provide a
great gaming experience on an affordable budget. Advertising costs are
also substantially cheaper because we know exactly who we’re targeting.
These factors mitigate a great deal of the risk in our project. We felt
that it was much better to have a 75% shot at making a great online
action RPG rather than a 5% shot at making a great MMORPG (for 20 times
the budget).
...
It’s common for developers to outsource portions of their development to
various developing countries to take advantage of cheap labour.
Communication problems over distances are common with this type of
arrangement and can lead to wasted resources or assets of questionable
quality. We’re developing Path of Exile in New Zealand, which means
that, other than a couple of overseas contractors, most of our
developers are English-speaking Westerners who are immersed in Western
RPGs. It’s also good that New Zealand wages are among the lowest in
first-world countries. Path of Exile’s low budget means that we don’t
need to recover $30m via microtransactions like some competing free
games do.
...
One luxury that indie developers of non-massive online RPGs, such as
us at Path of Exile have, is that we don't need to try and recover the
development costs in the first few months of release. The reason that
popular indie online RPGs seem to come out of nowhere, is that they were
initially released to a limited niche audience and eventually gathered
more & more mainstream appeal as they received updates in the first
year or so.
...
In summary, by choosing not to make Path of Exile a traditional
MMORPG, we’ve effectively reduced both the technical and business risks
for our small team. Instead, we focus solely on delivering a great
action RPG. So far these decisions have paid off significantly - we are
developing a product that we’re very pleased with and for a budget that
we can afford.
The
truly good games will continue to be few and far between, sadly. "Me
too" has always been a terrible business decision. Why are people hyped?
Because when it comes right down to it, people are dumb.
The hype is also a result of frustration. People desire changes. Even
excellent things can become stale when enjoyed for too long, whether
it's food or a certain genre or style of art, music, literature, films
or games.
Soulbound Studios should have kept their mouths shut until they were much, much farther along in the development of CoE. Now the expectations are too high for them to attain and the game will be another Pathfinder Online.
You are of course entitled to your opinion. However there's three things to keep in mind, all of which make your opinion wrong - for us.
1. Several indy projects have had good ideas in the recent past, but failed to succeed in fundraising because they didn't take the proper time to build interest in the game - to really let people know what they were working on. We let people know early so we'd have the opportunity to build up an interested player base of 10's of thousands of players before beginning our crowdfunding. This gives us the highest chance of success. Does it guarantee we'll succeed in our crowdfunding? No. But it's much harder to get crowdfunding when there's no crowd.
2. While we could have waited until we were further along to make an announcement, such as where we are now, we would have been taking far more risk investing more money without first taking the temperature of the community. And we couldn't have waited for more months than we are now, as we'd simply have ran out of money before making any kind of announcement.
3. We love community. I in particular was a top-rated moderator on GameDev.net for years before they reset the reputation system. I love talking to people about games, and my games in specific. This is great, because it motivated us to want to bring the community into the development process early. Community members regularly provide feedback on screenshots, animations, videos, etc... and we do the best we can to incorporate that feedback so we can make the best game possible. So far, aside from you and a vocal minority, we're getting a lot of positive feedback for how interactive we are. That tells me we made the right choice. We get to talk to the community, and the community tells us they like it that way.
So given all that, while I respect you believe we should have "kept [our] mouths shut until [we] were much, much further along," the route we've chosen, we believe, is the best route at ensuring the game's success. And at the end of the day, that's what everyone wants - us, and the players.
What other games are aiming at sandbox open-world pvp with full looting / permadeath? Serious question - I would like to check them out as well. Crowfall is the only other mmo that even marginally holds my interest besides CoE.
BDO is nothing to write home about, Camelot Unchained looks like a high-fantasy Planetside 2, Gloria victis looks desynced and clunky, and Revival has this weird pay-money-for-in-game-real-estate i'm not that into.
I don't think the push towards sandbox mmos comes from greed. As far as i can tell, the developers i hear talking about the games they are making like Crowfall and CoE were players of games like UO that want to return to that era. For better or worse, I believe them when they say they want a sandbox mmo like that again out of intrinsic interest.
I wasn't making any claims about whether the games would be good or not, just the general sameness of the design decisions. In fact, I think I mentioned that most were likely to be crappy and fail (even if they weren't all cannibalizing the same niche audience).
I didn't say it was because of greed. I said it was out of a super slow over-reaction to the previous big budget theme parks. it's highly predictable simple-minded thinking...much the same as all the developers who thought they knew the "secret formula" to make their big budget WoW clone successful. Turned out none of them did. This new secret formula isn't likely to work either, because again, it's execution and quality that matter in the end. Being innovative can be good, but what most are doing isn't even innovation.
If it was out of intrinsic interest, where did all these developers go for like 20 years? Why are they just trying to return to the UO model now? I'm betting it's because 10 years ago most of them totally zealously believed in the exact opposite design philosophy when they thought that would work to make a successful game.
You hit on most of the me-too projects - CoE, Gloria Victus, BDO, Camelot Unchained, Trials of Ascension, Revival, R2 Online. That's a lot of games (there are probably more) all vying for the same small niche. They aren't all exactly the same, obviously...but they are all thinking the same way in terms of trying to be "different" by simply doing the opposite.
If CoE makes it to release, and isn't just objectively terrible in terms of gameplay/graphics/etc., I think what we'll find is that it garners a small and dedicated following right up until one of those other games comes out. Will it be enough players to keep their lights on? *shrug*
All I needed was a cursory scan of the features list. It's a definite "must-miss" for me. Even if they manage to execute really well (highly unlikely), those game mechanics don't sound fun at all to me. I don't choose games just based on whether or not they are doing something different...it also has to be something good. If a game developer created a game that punched you in the groin in real life when you die in-game...that would be new, but I wouldn't play.
This shouldn't come as a surprise...most players will not have any interest in a game like this. It's a niche product. Hopefully the developers recognize that.
Comments
Being active in the game is how you would increase your fame, and therefore also going to increase your spirit loss if you die. The more active, the more fame, the more impact if you die, the more money it costs ultimately. The 'earn to play' model may well adjust that, and I hope it does, but the information we have so far from Developers Journals means that I would agree there is currently an impact from actively engaging in the world and becoming successful.
Perhaps, we are just going to have to agree to disagree on that one.
I do not think anyone is saying you will die more, just that those deaths cost more. If a player who is actively engaging in the world earns more fame and they die the same number of times as someone who is unknown it will cost them more. Looking at someone just one fame level higher, so only 1.5 times the average fame, if they die once a week they get a months less play time then they would if they did not progress in that way and remained unknown.
If you never died your fame would have no impact. That is true.
Unfortunately, we know that Elyria is a dangerous place. How likely is it that someone will make it through a year of play time without a single death? Do you think that chance is lessened still if you are active in the story, in places of power, fighting the good fight, or pushing at the boundaries of crafting? A single death means the second part of spirit loss comes into effect, fame. So I do agree they are separate, but I think it is best when discussing features to look at how they affect the majority rather than edge cases.
Edit: Just to say at this point we might be circling so, I shall leave my comments on the topic at that. I just want to add I do think the Developers are aware of the concerns some of us have on the topic and I hope to see them addressed in a future Developer Journal.
want 7 free days of playing? Try this
http://www.swtor.com/r/ZptVnY
What am I missing?
because CoE has a ever changing story and even disregarding the story the players themselves shaping the world.
Join the revolutionary MMO!
yes ofc its hype and i will try to keep myself cool and the hell not gonna buy myself into alpha for 100+ bugs
Permadeath has been attempted before but not like this.
Now if you said you don't like to play in Alpha's and will wait until Launch... that's different, but I read your comment as if you think it's not normal for Alpha's to have bugs.
Unfortunately Alpha is the new 'early play' mentality and many people use it to experience the game ahead of others and not contribute to a games development with constructive feedback.
Finite Resources, WYSIWYG looting to player created and maintained maps and a deep modular crafting system. So much more that hasn't been said, ask questions! Post your thoughts! Spread the word of COE!
If you haven't yet, register with my referrer code on the official website: B0E240
I have no doubt that CoE has the chance to change the industry and like someone above said already, if we as players don't stand up and support a game that attempts to break the cookie cutter epidemic then we deserve what we get.
I encourage any naysayer to do their homework, then comeback and give an honest assessment.
Seriously
Families and bloodlines? Meh. What exactly does that mean? So your next character can carry over certain traits? I really don't find that any more interesting than say, ESO's champion point system that allows you to make new characters more efficient. It's just given to you in a different form.
Aging? Meh. I can see why realism buffs would like this, but not a casual gamer. Not even a casual sandbox gamer. Hell, I love sandboxes and I wish I could finally see another good one, because it's been nearly 20 years. But that does nothing for my interest in a game. My character ages, great. And?
Talent systems are in literally every MMO ever.
I know I'm responding to multiple people in this post, but I didn't feel like making a response that spans the entire length of this page. Ultimately, my point here is, MMO's don't really innovate any more. I understand why most of you guys are caught up in it, but I've been around the block. I'm an old man when it comes to MMO's, and all I want is a good sandbox. EVE is about the only one, but it's a spreadsheet game. Just give me a good game. Everything else means nothing.
Regarding the families; the families are sort of a social support system that promote socializing between players that otherwise might never meet. There are a variety of other in-game perks and boons associated with being in a family and the idea is that it encourages community building, something a lot of mmos fail or ignore to address completely.
The bloodline thing softens the blow of permadeath by giving a skill ramp so if your father was a great swordsman when he died, you can become a great swordsman even faster than he did, etc. It also gives you the chance to inherit a lot of your "fathers" possessions (your old possessions) which also softens the permadeath blow. I think a lot of people also like the roleplay idea behind continuing the lineage of your former characters, so that even in permadeath, they keep a connection to someone they put a lot of their heart and soul in.
The aging mechanic is really critical to the game's permadeath and family system. They're kind of mutually dependent on each other - if you don't naturally age and you never leave your house, you might never die and thus you never permadie, which breaks down the continuity of a realistic game world.
On the flipside, permadeath of your character from old age gives you the chance to start a fresh character and maybe go in a completely different direction, giving you the chance to branch out and "start fresh", to make your story anew. Additionally, because you are guaranteed to die of old age, even if it takes a full year+ IRL, the game is ensured at least some financial support from even the safest of players.
The looming perma death of your character also gives extremely heavy weight to the decisions you make in game. Your choices matter, and riskier choices bring you closer to permadeath, but maybe at a possibly high reward. You can't get that if you have infinite respawn.
Talent systems as they are iterated in this game ... I don't know of any other game that's tried this. Once upon a time, legend tells of SWG randomly giving some few players Force Sensitivity early in its inception. Thats the closest example i can think of - except in CoE, it gets recycled through different characters, thus giving even the newest player a chance at having a cool talent instead of all the oldest accounts hogging them.
Suffice to say, I think CoE does have some really innovative ideas, but realistically speaking, they may have to cut back on some of these for their initial release and add them later. We know things like permadeath, aging and the talent system are core and won't be compromised on, but I believe others might get cut before release and be added post-release.
Simple.
Soulbound Studios should have kept their mouths shut until they were much, much farther along in the development of CoE. Now the expectations are too high for them to attain and the game will be another Pathfinder Online.
This is a developer backlash from the huge boom in the genre in the last decade where everyone thought they could make a big-budget WoW clone theme park that would garner 10 million subs. Most of those (if not all) failed miserably, and now the big money in the video game industry is gun shy about this genre.
In super slow motion, most developers have decided to swing to the exact opposite game design, and are all scrounging for funding any way they can get it, and they think this qualifies as "innovation" or original thought. All the theme parks with level-based advancement failed... so let's make a sandbox with skill-based advancement! WOW, it's genius. The design of any game is only one part of its success or failure. Execution is also important.
The truly good games will continue to be few and far between, sadly. "Me too" has always been a terrible business decision. Why are people hyped? Because when it comes right down to it, people are dumb.
BDO is nothing to write home about, Camelot Unchained looks like a high-fantasy Planetside 2, Gloria victis looks desynced and clunky, and Revival has this weird pay-money-for-in-game-real-estate i'm not that into.
I don't think the push towards sandbox mmos comes from greed. As far as i can tell, the developers i hear talking about the games they are making like Crowfall and CoE were players of games like UO that want to return to that era. For better or worse, I believe them when they say they want a sandbox mmo like that again out of intrinsic interest.
A text written by Path of Exile developers about their production and business mentality offers some insight into one possible recipe for success.
http://pathofexile.wikia.com/wiki/Why_we_hate_being_called_an_MMORPG
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With Path of Exile, we’ve targeted a specific niche group of gamers who enjoy online action RPGs with dark fantasy art styles. We are members of this gaming subset, and by specifically catering to it we will provide a great gaming experience on an affordable budget. Advertising costs are also substantially cheaper because we know exactly who we’re targeting. These factors mitigate a great deal of the risk in our project. We felt that it was much better to have a 75% shot at making a great online action RPG rather than a 5% shot at making a great MMORPG (for 20 times the budget).
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It’s common for developers to outsource portions of their development to various developing countries to take advantage of cheap labour. Communication problems over distances are common with this type of arrangement and can lead to wasted resources or assets of questionable quality. We’re developing Path of Exile in New Zealand, which means that, other than a couple of overseas contractors, most of our developers are English-speaking Westerners who are immersed in Western RPGs. It’s also good that New Zealand wages are among the lowest in first-world countries. Path of Exile’s low budget means that we don’t need to recover $30m via microtransactions like some competing free games do.
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One luxury that indie developers of non-massive online RPGs, such as us at Path of Exile have, is that we don't need to try and recover the development costs in the first few months of release. The reason that popular indie online RPGs seem to come out of nowhere, is that they were initially released to a limited niche audience and eventually gathered more & more mainstream appeal as they received updates in the first year or so.
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In summary, by choosing not to make Path of Exile a traditional MMORPG, we’ve effectively reduced both the technical and business risks for our small team. Instead, we focus solely on delivering a great action RPG. So far these decisions have paid off significantly - we are developing a product that we’re very pleased with and for a budget that we can afford.
The hype is also a result of frustration. People desire changes. Even excellent things can become stale when enjoyed for too long, whether it's food or a certain genre or style of art, music, literature, films or games.
* more info, screenshots and videos here
Have either of you really taken a good hard look at CoE, at least more than a cursory scan of its features list?
1. Several indy projects have had good ideas in the recent past, but failed to succeed in fundraising because they didn't take the proper time to build interest in the game - to really let people know what they were working on. We let people know early so we'd have the opportunity to build up an interested player base of 10's of thousands of players before beginning our crowdfunding. This gives us the highest chance of success. Does it guarantee we'll succeed in our crowdfunding? No. But it's much harder to get crowdfunding when there's no crowd.
2. While we could have waited until we were further along to make an announcement, such as where we are now, we would have been taking far more risk investing more money without first taking the temperature of the community. And we couldn't have waited for more months than we are now, as we'd simply have ran out of money before making any kind of announcement.
3. We love community. I in particular was a top-rated moderator on GameDev.net for years before they reset the reputation system. I love talking to people about games, and my games in specific. This is great, because it motivated us to want to bring the community into the development process early. Community members regularly provide feedback on screenshots, animations, videos, etc... and we do the best we can to incorporate that feedback so we can make the best game possible. So far, aside from you and a vocal minority, we're getting a lot of positive feedback for how interactive we are. That tells me we made the right choice. We get to talk to the community, and the community tells us they like it that way.
So given all that, while I respect you believe we should have "kept [our] mouths shut until [we] were much, much further along," the route we've chosen, we believe, is the best route at ensuring the game's success. And at the end of the day, that's what everyone wants - us, and the players.
Owner/CEO of Soulbound Studios
ChroniclesOfElyria.com
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I didn't say it was because of greed. I said it was out of a super slow over-reaction to the previous big budget theme parks. it's highly predictable simple-minded thinking...much the same as all the developers who thought they knew the "secret formula" to make their big budget WoW clone successful. Turned out none of them did. This new secret formula isn't likely to work either, because again, it's execution and quality that matter in the end. Being innovative can be good, but what most are doing isn't even innovation.
If it was out of intrinsic interest, where did all these developers go for like 20 years? Why are they just trying to return to the UO model now? I'm betting it's because 10 years ago most of them totally zealously believed in the exact opposite design philosophy when they thought that would work to make a successful game.
You hit on most of the me-too projects - CoE, Gloria Victus, BDO, Camelot Unchained, Trials of Ascension, Revival, R2 Online. That's a lot of games (there are probably more) all vying for the same small niche. They aren't all exactly the same, obviously...but they are all thinking the same way in terms of trying to be "different" by simply doing the opposite.
If CoE makes it to release, and isn't just objectively terrible in terms of gameplay/graphics/etc., I think what we'll find is that it garners a small and dedicated following right up until one of those other games comes out. Will it be enough players to keep their lights on? *shrug*
Have you taken a good hard look at the ever evolving money issue in CoE?
This shouldn't come as a surprise...most players will not have any interest in a game like this. It's a niche product. Hopefully the developers recognize that.