This illustrates what's wrong with so many games

Amathe · February 2016

Used to be there were lots of common jelly beans in a bag, but only a few black licorice ones. Those were highly prized and worth waiting for.

This week I came across a different type of candy bag. Licorice beans for all! No waiting! And no need to root around for one. Just face roll as many as you like.

I suppose there is nothing intrinsically wrong with that. It's just for fun after all.

But it still seems a lot more fun to me if outcome and success are not guaranteed, where there is anticipation and doubt, and where gratification must often be delayed. In games as well as in candy.

Flyte27 · February 2016

Most people would call you elitist for wanting to have exclusive content.

I am one of the people who never got to have the best equipment or complete the best content, but the fact that there was always something I hadn't accomplished made the desire to continue playing greater.

It depends on what your goal is in game. I find these games fairly bland due to instancing allowing everyone to do everything.

On the flip side I am at a point in my life where I don't care as much about getting virtual items in game no matter how cool they are. If a game can get me immersed in some way that is the most important thing for me. Unfortunately most games are not designed to immerse the player these days. They are designed to be a min maxing style game that everyone can easily follow.

Tasslehoff35 · February 2016

Screw that I threw those black jelly beans in the trash!! Nasty!

You know in our society today you need to be inclusive. Somebody probably comlained it was racist there weren't more "black" jelly beans. Sounds crazy I know but wouldn't put it passed some people today..,

Kyleran · February 2016

I like the purple ones.

Quizzical · February 2016

So you're saying that instead of being mostly fun, MMORPGs should be mostly miserable with only occasional moments of fun?

Distopia · February 2016

Some games would be more like you finally find the Black one then they shove thirty purples ones down your throat choking you to death, then let someone come along take your clothes, wallet and sit bare-assed on your face.

mayito7777 · February 2016

Nasty Jelly beans, they remind me of PVP only games.

immodium · February 2016

Quizzical said:

So you're saying that instead of being mostly fun, MMORPGs should be mostly miserable with only occasional moments of fun?

And completely luck based over skill.

Flyte27 · February 2016

immodium said:

Quizzical said:

So you're saying that instead of being mostly fun, MMORPGs should be mostly miserable with only occasional moments of fun?

And completely luck based over skill.

I think it's more determination based. Depending on how much you want something you will put in the time and effort required to get it. That is how it is in a world with finite resources.

I was never that determined though. I always would play through the older games solo most of the time and avoid grouping and raiding to the point it was only done rarely.

There is one thing that can't be argued. That is in a finite world things become a lot more valuable and rare.

Ares_Desideratus · February 2016

Assuming this is about MMOs...

I agree, though this isn't the only problem with MMOs. Far from it. The entire industry is a disgrace at this point.

I have searched for a long time, but I simply cannot find a fantasy-themed MMO that I consider to be worth my time. You would think that in an industry as big as this there would be a game out there with quality (or at least serviceable) graphics, coherent controls, dynamic skill-based combat (or at least mostly skill-based), in an open-world, non-carebear, pvp-oriented environmet with no safe zones. Safe zones are where MMOs go to die. MMOs are about player interaction. If you don't want to interact with other players, then don't play an MMO. I'm not saying all MMOs have to be this way, but why is it so hard to find ONE good fantasy MMO that doesn't give a shit about carebears?

For the life of me, I can't find one. All of the big name MMOs follow the same old tired design, with a restricted class/level system, instanced and regulated environments, and combat that is far too based on magical gear and power-ups and other nonsense. This is the restricted carebear design philosophy followed by almost all the big names in MMOs, and the ones that don't follow this path are mostly indie titles with nowhere near the same budget.

It's really unfortunate that this is the path MMOs have taken. The mindless pursuit of profit has derailed all possibilities of the great, unique MMOs that could have been. In time the industry will surely recover from this, but in the meantime it's still extremely difficult for those of us who know what games are for, what MMOs are for.

My search for a great fantasy-themed hardcore non-carebear MMO continues...

Quizzical · February 2016

Ares_Desideratus said:
I have searched for a long time, but I simply cannot find a fantasy-themed MMO that I consider to be worth my time. You would think that in an industry as big as this there would be a game out there with quality (or at least serviceable) graphics, coherent controls, dynamic skill-based combat (or at least mostly skill-based), in an open-world, non-carebear, pvp-oriented environmet with no safe zones. Safe zones are where MMOs go to die. MMOs are about player interaction. If you don't want to interact with other players, then don't play an MMO. I'm not saying all MMOs have to be this way, but why is it so hard to find ONE good fantasy MMO that doesn't give a shit about carebears?

The more qualifiers you put on what you want, the less likely it is that a game will check all of the boxes for you. After all, everyone has a different set of things that they're looking for, and most have at least one thing they want that conflicts with what you want.

Loke666 · February 2016

Quizzical said:

So you're saying that instead of being mostly fun, MMORPGs should be mostly miserable with only occasional moments of fun?

Isn't he saying that MMOs should offer many different "tastes" instead of a single one?

I mean eating a huge bag of candy with the same taste isn't as good as a huge mixed bag even if we throw away a few pieces we don't like the taste of.

Adding more different things to do in MMOs is good, and varying how you run through the content is good as well. Soloing to max level, play group dungeon until you get raid gear and then just raid isn't as fun as mixing the content both when you level up to max and after (if we are talking PvE themeparks, but you can vary the content in PvP games and sandboxes as well).

Of course, most MMOers tend to be a bit lazy and run the content that rewards you most compared to the time it takes to play it. In the mid 2000s running dungeons were usually the fastest way to level so people did that a lot, now questing is faster so people do that instead. Maybe mixing the content should be the most rewarding way to play instead, that might make people staying longer in the game since it is most fun for the majority of the players.

And it wouldn't hurt if someone could figure out some new types of gameplay as well (like current crafting, questing, dungeons, raids, battlegrounds, exploring and RvR).

Vorthanion · February 2016

Loke666 said:

Quizzical said:

So you're saying that instead of being mostly fun, MMORPGs should be mostly miserable with only occasional moments of fun?

Isn't he saying that MMOs should offer many different "tastes" instead of a single one?

I mean eating a huge bag of candy with the same taste isn't as good as a huge mixed bag even if we throw away a few pieces we don't like the taste of.

Adding more different things to do in MMOs is good, and varying how you run through the content is good as well. Soloing to max level, play group dungeon until you get raid gear and then just raid isn't as fun as mixing the content both when you level up to max and after (if we are talking PvE themeparks, but you can vary the content in PvP games and sandboxes as well).

Of course, most MMOers tend to be a bit lazy and run the content that rewards you most compared to the time it takes to play it. In the mid 2000s running dungeons were usually the fastest way to level so people did that a lot, now questing is faster so people do that instead. Maybe mixing the content should be the most rewarding way to play instead, that might make people staying longer in the game since it is most fun for the majority of the players.

And it wouldn't hurt if someone could figure out some new types of gameplay as well (like current crafting, questing, dungeons, raids, battlegrounds, exploring and RvR).

The easier fix would be to make all paths as rewarding, so people can choose what they like rather than what is most convenient or most rewarding. If you are going to cater to multiple play styles, then actually cater to them and none of the current favoritism towards one over the others that is so dominant in this genre.

Ares_Desideratus · February 2016

Quizzical said:
The more qualifiers you put on what you want, the less likely it is that a game will check all of the boxes for you. After all, everyone has a different set of things that they're looking for, and most have at least one thing they want that conflicts with what you want.

But these qualifiers are merely the rejections of the current qualifiers. I didn't just make these things up. The real world is open-world. The real world is without safe zones. The real world is dynamic and generally skill based (debates over the definition of skill are besides the point).

I know, games aren't real life. But having a restricted class and leveling system is a qualifier. Having an instanced, regulated world is a qualifier. Catering to PvP-averse carebears is a qualifier. These are all qualifiers insofar as they're what the players want, or insofar as they're what the developers think the players are likely to want.

Now, you have a point if you're talking about majority rules. In general, games cater to the majority, and this is true of most MMOs. However, it also seems like it's been a case of follow-the-leader. Ever since World of Warcraft came out, it's set the standard for what you can expect from the average MMO. You can expect to have a specific level cap, restricted player classes, instanced, regulated environments. You can expect PvP to be completely optional. You can expect to have a bar of power-ups based on your class and your gear. You can find all of these things in essentially any big name fantasy MMO on the market. This is homogenization, and it's a terrible thing. The overwhelming majority of MMOs follow this concept, and the few that don't are generally, as I said, indie titles with significantly lower budgets.

I have EVE, so I'm happy with that. But I still wish I could find a great fantasy MMO that didn't sellout to the traditional concept of MMOs. If you know of one, I'd love to hear of it.

OneEyeRed · February 2016

Well you need to buy the right Jelly bean in the first place; Jelly Belly Gourmet Jelly Beans...

Tasslehoff35 · February 2016

sonicbrew said:

Well you need to buy the right Jelly bean in the first place; Jelly Belly Gourmet Jelly Beans...

How about Boozled jelly belly? Who doesn't like a puke flavor?

simsalabim77 · February 2016

Tasslehoff35 said:

sonicbrew said:

Well you need to buy the right Jelly bean in the first place; Jelly Belly Gourmet Jelly Beans...

How about Boozled jelly belly? Who doesn't like a puke flavor?

No. Absolutely not. The boozled jelly beans are a silly little bit of fun. MMORPG.com does not like silly little bits of fun. Instead they want jelly beans that you eat and are whisked away to a "virtual world" where you can spend the rest of your life.

Archlyte · February 2016

Yeah I have to agree that the MMORPGs today are more like the homogeneous bag of jelly beans. They also come with a link to the jelly bean store where you can buy black jelly beans with a logo on them with your credit card.

jigo86 · February 2016

i dont like jelly beans i want choclate

Quizzical · February 2016

Ares_Desideratus said:

Quizzical said:
The more qualifiers you put on what you want, the less likely it is that a game will check all of the boxes for you. After all, everyone has a different set of things that they're looking for, and most have at least one thing they want that conflicts with what you want.

But these qualifiers are merely the rejections of the current qualifiers. I didn't just make these things up. The real world is open-world. The real world is without safe zones. The real world is dynamic and generally skill based (debates over the definition of skill are besides the point).

I know, games aren't real life. But having a restricted class and leveling system is a qualifier. Having an instanced, regulated world is a qualifier. Catering to PvP-averse carebears is a qualifier. These are all qualifiers insofar as they're what the players want, or insofar as they're what the developers think the players are likely to want.

Now, you have a point if you're talking about majority rules. In general, games cater to the majority, and this is true of most MMOs. However, it also seems like it's been a case of follow-the-leader. Ever since World of Warcraft came out, it's set the standard for what you can expect from the average MMO. You can expect to have a specific level cap, restricted player classes, instanced, regulated environments. You can expect PvP to be completely optional. You can expect to have a bar of power-ups based on your class and your gear. You can find all of these things in essentially any big name fantasy MMO on the market. This is homogenization, and it's a terrible thing. The overwhelming majority of MMOs follow this concept, and the few that don't are generally, as I said, indie titles with significantly lower budgets.

I have EVE, so I'm happy with that. But I still wish I could find a great fantasy MMO that didn't sellout to the traditional concept of MMOs. If you know of one, I'd love to hear of it.

If you like EVE, you may want to give Uncharted Waters Online a go. It's historical, not fantasy: loosely 1520s, but they take liberties with the timeline whenever they feel like it. It's no closer to being a "WoW-clone" than EVE is. And if you could handle the complexity of EVE, then maybe UWO won't make you run away screaming. Maybe. Do be warned that it has a very long learning curve, as Koei does whatever they want and doesn't care if they're disregarding conventions adopted by every single other MMORPG ever.

nariusseldon · February 2016

Amathe said:

But it still seems a lot more fun to me if outcome and success are not guaranteed, where there is anticipation and doubt, and where gratification must often be delayed. In games as well as in candy.

You mean like random loot in D3?

Kazuhiro · February 2016

Kyleran said:

I like the purple ones.

Agreed, purple were best.

kitarad · February 2016

There used to be a grocery store a small one near my house when I was younger.They had peanut butter only and peanut butter and jelly jars. Guess the peanut butter alone was not selling as much as the peanut butter and jelly. It used to piss me off royally to have to scrape the jelly every time I wanted a sandwich because the store was not carrying any peanut butter jars any more and my mum was not going to haul her behind anywhere else to get it.

Everyone likes different things and catering to those different taste is what makes the world go round. Don't make me have to scrape the damn jelly out of my games.

Axehilt · February 2016

It's silly to imply things have to be crappy most of the time to be enjoyable.

But I suppose if you feel that way, then this thread delivers (as most posters seem to negatively disagree with the OP, making the few agreeing posters that much more enjoyable?)

VestigeGamer · February 2016

I'm finding many of the responses fitting right in with the point: "Why work in an entertainment activity?" Because fun has no meaning without something to compare it to. 100% up time, all the time gets old fast. People need a variety of experiences to fully enjoy something for any length of time. Failures make the successes that much sweeter. Digging through those "other jelly beans" to find the coveted black ones make them that much better. 2 or 3 handfuls of all black jelly beans and most people will be putting the bag aside, having had their fill.

Variety. The spice of life that makes everything sweeter.

Scott23 · February 2016

Amathe said:

<stuff>

But it still seems a lot more fun to me if outcome and success are not guaranteed, where there is anticipation and doubt, and where gratification must often be delayed. In games as well as in candy.

Sounds like you need to go to SWTOR and buy some hypercrates

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This illustrates what's wrong with so many games

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This illustrates what's wrong with so many games

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Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV