Sovrath said: That doesn't make any sense. If I sell something in the AH and it is going for less than I put in to make it then I make money. One might not be able to make the zillions they want to make but I'm still going to make money.
In any case, food and potions will be the good way to make money in the game as they are desirable.
...or instead you can just go AFK fishing and sell to vendor.
That is a root issue - incentives.
Once you start regulating the market and money one can make(communism), you remove the vital part, the driving force of the economy, and society, the incentive to work - you are not rewarded for working harder or better.
There it goes full circle - desired items you speak of are only desirable if their price reflects supply and demand, creating incentives to produce more of those items, however this concept does not work in BDO. There is no free economy, prices are set by regulator.
All in all, it isn't about trade restrictions being a "bad thing", it is about being utterly pointless - you only lose by doing so.
If it makes the FINISHED product more than the sum of the pasts that made it then the system is better than EVERY other system out there. Because there has never been an MMO (even the coveted SWG) where a crafter made something that he couldnt have made more money by selling piece of it individually.
Crafting has never been really lucrative in any game GATHERING on the other hand, a gold mine. Thats why gold sellers have their inventory to begin with. Make a new spawn go gather the most expensive or most selling item in the game get gold post it on website for sale. Rince and repeat. They dont need anything but a simple macro in many games to gather the stuff.
The argument is 'crafter dont have to buy it they can gather it themselves. Logic fail, even if they gather it themselves they can then turn around and sell it themselves for the same price as they would have had to buy t for. Only thing they lose is an AH fee, if the game even has one. Or they could direct trade (not in this game) and save those fees.
So BDO kills a bunch of birds, they force a gold sink into the game with AH fees. They sort of eliminate gold sellers (the uninitiated ones anyway). They help regulate prices and if a byproduct of that is crafted goods actually being worth more than gathered goods its the ultimate win.
The last comparable game to BDO I played was ArcheAge, a very good game ruined by hacks, exploits, gold sellers, bots, spamming, and cheaters. (This was in addition to a developer and publisher who didn't do much to resolve these issues.)
In this regard, does the underlying BDO technology have integrity?
Thank you in advance.
BDO is hands down a cleaner experience....so far.
AA was a mess of constant spam, and I spent alot of time killing bots in that game.
you dont see bots farming, mainly they r fishing and used for buying staff from auction house. RU publisher doing so little that is invisible. Also scripts are often used for damage and range increase. Bot will get you around 20 mil a day,have fun trying to earn that yourself.
Hope NA/EU will have a better security system in place.
Well, we all know here that if you ever played this game, it was definitely not long enough to understand even its simplest mechanics. This is just another proof of that fact.
You can auto-fish, it's part of the base game mechanics, there's no need for a bot to do that.
Your fishing pole breaks fairly quickly, you need to replace it. Bot can also do the mini game and make you vastly more efficient..
Not understanding simpliest mechanics, ouch the irony...
I'm a huge fan of trading and codependency in MMO's. In fact, that is what made Star Wars Galaxies so much fun. However, times have changed and gold farming is almost as lucrative as the MMO's themselves. While it's easy to turn off chat and ignore gold farmers, they do in fact ruin games they exist on. What difference does it make if you have a free trade economy if you have gold farmers that play 20 hours a day completely screwing up the economy. While some of you are all saying you'll pass on the concept behind BDO's anti gold selling mechanics, I for one, along with my entire guild couldn't agree more that it's more beneficial than a hindrance.
Doesn't mean it's a revolutionary discovery, but this is the first time it's been implemented in such a way that it actually works and it works well. If you don't agree, that's perfectly fine. I expect a lot of people don't like the idea of minimal trading. I however detest gold farmers / sellers and it's actually far more enjoyable to play a game that isn't filled with BOTs stealing all the resource nodes and mob grinding areas.
1) Please do provide some evidence or at least some support of any kind that gold farmers ruin games or economy.
2) BDO economy work..? It was released in 3 regions already and in no region it actualy "works". The controlled market is completely messed up, setting up higher prices for mats than is the crafted item, limitations and high taxes killing any incentives for trade, etc.
3) Because only 3rd party RMT are botting, right...?
I can understand you are hyped for the game but...c'mon...
Sorry, Gdemami, but the onus is also on you to provide links to data supporting your argument also, there is no evidence that i am aware of that supports the argument that RMT does not destroy game economies, or that RMT does not ruin games for other players.
Points 2 and 3 are subjective, too early to tell for point 2, and point 3 should be illegal in any game, and preventing it is always an ongoing battle, though it has to be said, if RMT'ers are unable to operate then there will be by default, less botters as a consequence.
In a few months time we'll know one way or another whether it has worked, but, logic would seem to indicate that the measures in place will be extremely detrimental to RMT'ers.
Sorry, Gdemami, but the onus is also on you to provide links to data supporting your argument also, there is no evidence that i am aware of that supports the argument that RMT does not destroy game economies, or that RMT does not ruin games for other players.
Points 2 and 3 are subjective, too early to tell for point 2, and point 3 should be illegal in any game, and preventing it is always an ongoing battle, though it has to be said, if RMT'ers are unable to operate then there will be by default, less botters as a consequence.
In a few months time we'll know one way or another whether it has worked, but, logic would seem to indicate that the measures in place will be extremely detrimental to RMT'ers.
Erm no. The onus is on those making claims how it ruin games and economy, not the other way round. They make the claim, they need to provide evidence, I am just saying there is no such evidence, thus the claim has no ground.
Still, if one wants to look after some data, EVE is a good example.
I even did post some links, not sure if it was this thread tho.
CCP proved over and over that after mass bot bans, the market just correct itself to pretty much same prices and volumes and the life goes on as usual.
It also proves that inflation supposedly caused by bots is not taking place in EVE, the game economy is experiencing deflation for over the decade, and the game has bots too. Thus it is unlikely the cause are the bots but it is the economy setup.
So yeah, it is likely to say that RMT does not impact game economies much if any. There is not even any economical background for such claims - RMT farmers just do what any player would do, they farm. Yes, botting make it more efficient but that's it. It does not turn "functional" economy into defunct, it is merely a catalyst - the economy will move into it's direction faster.
Have you noticed how no one was actually able to even speciffy what this supposed "harm" should be? How precisely the economy is "hurt"? What is the supposed negative effect(s)?
Nada. It is just a silly twaddle.
2) isn't subjective, nor it is too early. The game was already released in 3 regions, ffs.
The incentive part isn't subjective either, in case you accept concensus on economical theories.
RMT and "ruined game economies" is a bogeyman for those who prefer scapegoats over rational thinking...or just not capable of it..make your pick.
While I agree there is a social impact, one can make quite a lot of money on the auction house. Was listening to a guild member talk about fishing making him a lot of money.
As far as donating, there are guild quests that basically task players to collect/harvest/etc and that contribution goes to levelign the guild.
Granted one can't gather mats for your guildmates but you can take him/her to an area, group up and get items that way.
You can't buy mats,craft and sell something because you have absolutely no control over price. No way to make money that way.
AH is essentially equal to shopping to NPC vendor...
No it is not unless you are an idiot. Items are worth a lot more on the marketplace than they'd sell to for a vendor. There is simply a min and max price that the devs allow for simple as that...
Example of how RMT into a game (Monopoly) can be bad:
"There is, however, a failure in the RMT market, because some welfare effects of the trade fall on others. To see this clearly, imagine playing a game like Monopoly where two of the other players engage in a side deal using their real dollars.
Player A is losing to Player C, but owns Park Place. Player B is also losing but owns Boardwalk.
- A pays B $US50 for Boardwalk; with this monopoly, A wins the game.
Doubtless, A and B are better off – A now wins the game, and B, who was losing anyway, has $US50. Yet players C and D, who were not party to the transaction, are worse off.
1 - Player C would have won had the trade not happened. 2 - Both player C and D experienced a degradation in the nature of the game itself; it became less fun. This loss of fun, more broadly, can be seen as an externally-imposed disturbance of the game, a perturbation away from the gameplay as intended by the designers. The costs are borne both by users, who get less utility from the product, and by the designers, who realize fewer revenues from the sales of games."
Once again using the launch of Elder Scrolls Online as an example, two-and-a-half weeks after launch, lead game designer Matt Firor published a "State of the Game Address" to the player base in which he acknowledged the impact of the RMT operations on the Zenimax staff:
"The scope of the black market activity accounts for up to 85% of Customer Service emails/calls. Because of this huge influx of contact relating to this one issue, our CS team has been slower to react to other problems than planned – our sincere apologies if you have been held up for a long period of time waiting for CS to respond to you. Again, our goal is to keep this activity away from you so you don’t have to contact Customer Service in the first place."
"The overwhelming majority of purchased gold comes from stolen player accounts, in which character inventories are stripped of value, liquidated into gold and sent off to be sold. This halts the victims’ ability to play the game and contribute to their guilds.
"It’s also costly for Blizzard, as we task hundreds of Game Masters and account specialists to assist compromise victims, help secure accounts, and restore their characters. These efforts require time and focus that could otherwise be spent addressing player requests more quickly."
Another effect of the regulated AH pricing ranges is that it allows developers far more control over the monetization in the game. Usually devs control the drop rates of all items, but have no control over the selling prices of the items. In BDO the devs control both both factors, so it gives them the ability to tailor the Cash Shop content more profitably.
Example of how RMT into a game (Monopoly) can be bad:
"There is, however, a failure in the RMT market, because some welfare effects of the trade fall on others. To see this clearly, imagine playing a game like Monopoly where two of the other players engage in a side deal using their real dollars.
Player A is losing to Player C, but owns Park Place. Player B is also losing but owns Boardwalk.
- A pays B $US50 for Boardwalk; with this monopoly, A wins the game.
Doubtless, A and B are better off – A now wins the game, and B, who was losing anyway, has $US50. Yet players C and D, who were not party to the transaction, are worse off.
1 - Player C would have won had the trade not happened. 2 - Both player C and D experienced a degradation in the nature of the game itself; it became less fun. This loss of fun, more broadly, can be seen as an externally-imposed disturbance of the game, a perturbation away from the gameplay as intended by the designers. The costs are borne both by users, who get less utility from the product, and by the designers, who realize fewer revenues from the sales of games."
Once again using the launch of Elder Scrolls Online as an example, two-and-a-half weeks after launch, lead game designer Matt Firor published a "State of the Game Address" to the player base in which he acknowledged the impact of the RMT operations on the Zenimax staff:
"The scope of the black market activity accounts for up to 85% of Customer Service emails/calls. Because of this huge influx of contact relating to this one issue, our CS team has been slower to react to other problems than planned – our sincere apologies if you have been held up for a long period of time waiting for CS to respond to you. Again, our goal is to keep this activity away from you so you don’t have to contact Customer Service in the first place."
"The overwhelming majority of purchased gold comes from stolen player accounts, in which character inventories are stripped of value, liquidated into gold and sent off to be sold. This halts the victims’ ability to play the game and contribute to their guilds.
"It’s also costly for Blizzard, as we task hundreds of Game Masters and account specialists to assist compromise victims, help secure accounts, and restore their characters. These efforts require time and focus that could otherwise be spent addressing player requests more quickly."
1) Monopoly
Invalid argument.
It essientially says that there is someone who has to win the game and that there will be someone complaining why they lost. Do some players feel cheated if others use RMT? Sure, but that is about all. Same way there will be players that will feel cheated about no-lifers.
No impact on economy going on there.
2) ESO
Yes, like said before that is the only relevant impact of RMT - accompanied illegal activity. RMT in itself, the act of trading real world currency for virtual items is not harmful(besides lost profits for the company but they can only blame themselves for poor monetization).
No it is not unless you are an idiot. Items are worth a lot more on the marketplace than they'd sell to for a vendor. There is simply a min and max price that the devs allow for simple as that...
And unless you are an idiot, you will understand that the price on the market set by a regulator does not necessarily reflects the price people are willing to pay or want to sell for - regardless of min-max range, thus it is better to find some other activity and shop to NPC vendor.
This is going to be my last attempt since you are so obtuse in your incorrect opinion but alas an opinion.
How does it NOT affect economy when people get a large some of ingame money with real money? That money (As was written in the quote) comes also from stolen accounts. That money also will be used to buy stuff from the auction house and given time will change their original cost affecting any crafter in the game.
In archeage for example in the beginning you could harvest plants or mine all day long and get your fair share of money. Given time with bots and RMT the prices went down so low that there was no point in mining them yourself, just buy them. This ruined the income of many people which had to resort in other means of getting money.
To continue with archeage, buying charms and regrade scrolls was also a huge money sink that people hated. With RMT however people could control the market since they could afford them to regrade equipment/weapons and sell them for absurd prices.
Explain to me how that is NOT affecting the economy?
Bloodaxes said: How does it NOT affect economy when people get a large some of ingame money with real money? That money (As was written in the quote) comes also from stolen accounts. That money also will be used to buy stuff from the auction house and given time will change their original cost affecting any crafter in the game.
Because those stolen ingame money and items still had to be made via ingame activity. They are not created out of thin air, they are still part of the game economy.
Given that supply and demand remain unchanged for final products, lower material prices means products they are made of are also cheaper. You make less but it is also cheaper for your to buy.
Same swings the other way round, once someones starts buying out entire market, it creates a supply hole you can easily fill in and make lots of money on it.
Calling out someone obtuse, yet not understanding basic principles of topic you wish to talk about is an approach you might want to re-think.
Why should I? You are not showing any evidence on why it doesn't affect the economy besides EVE.
As far as I know there's more than 1 mmo.
Given that supply and demand remain unchanged for final products, lower material prices means products they are made of are also cheaper.
Or maybe the most logical reason being bots farm constantly these sources. Being easy to acquire or not, most of the population is lazy, they won't go farm them themselves, they'd rather buy it from the ah and be done with it. That is where cafters get their money, from lazy people. If bots are going to take their main source of income and thus making it very cheap in the end, they will have to adapt and do something else or remain poor.
Why should I? You are not showing any evidence on why it doesn't affect the economy besides EVE.
As far as I know there's more than 1 mmo.
Good, then it will be very easy for you to provide evidence how RMT is ruining all other games and game economy except EVE Online.
Burden of proof is on your shoulders, not mines.
Its easy to make wild claims though isn't it, and then demand others provide proof when you haven't provided any yourself. Perhaps you should look up 'stability' in virtual economies. and in particular how it relates to other players in the games concerned, crime etc. And while i freely admit that Wikipedia is not the be all and end all, and often more an accumulation of opinions, you haven't provided even that much in defence of your own arguments.
Its easy to make wild claims though isn't it, and then demand others provide proof when you haven't provided any yourself. Perhaps you should look up 'stability' in virtual economies. and in particular how it relates to other players in the games concerned, crime etc. And while i freely admit that Wikipedia is not the be all and end all, and often more an accumulation of opinions, you haven't provided even that much in defence of your own arguments.
Its easy to make wild claims though isn't it, and then demand others provide proof when you haven't provided any yourself. Perhaps you should look up 'stability' in virtual economies. and in particular how it relates to other players in the games concerned, crime etc. And while i freely admit that Wikipedia is not the be all and end all, and often more an accumulation of opinions, you haven't provided even that much in defence of your own arguments.
I think we went throught this already... "Prove me wrong" game is silly and childish.
Lack of evidence on your end does not make my claims "wild". Prove your claims to be legitimate instead.
Well, you did not address any of my points, so I guess that is also an answer.
I can only guess that you didn't agree with the articles in question, well thats your right. However since you have repeatedly been unable to provide any kind of evidence to back up your claims, i can only conclude that such a thing does not exist. Since your stance on players being hacked in games is also somewhat questionable as regards to RMT, indeed your whole stance on the subject, i can only come to the conclusion that if you are not somehow involved, that you do unfortunately condone it. Why else would you have the stance you do on the subject when it flies in the face of the evidence, when developers/publishers themselves go to such extreme measures, have teams of people involved in combatting such practices that you somehow are perfectly fine with. Not that your points had merit, but they were addressed, obviously the answers were not the ones you were looking for.
I can only guess that you didn't agree with the articles in question, well thats your right. However since you have repeatedly been unable to provide any kind of evidence to back up your claims, i can only conclude that such a thing does not exist. Since your stance on players being hacked in games is also somewhat questionable as regards to RMT, indeed your whole stance on the subject, i can only come to the conclusion that if you are not somehow involved, that you do unfortunately condone it. Why else would you have the stance you do on the subject when it flies in the face of the evidence, when developers/publishers themselves go to such extreme measures, have teams of people involved in combatting such practices that you somehow are perfectly fine with. Not that your points had merit, but they were addressed, obviously the answers were not the ones you were looking for.
You run out of arguments so you try to bring it down to personal level, very original indeed.
The thing people need to realize, when talking about RMT and gold farming in MMOs, as in regards to Korean origin games, that gold/virtual item selling is allowed and regulated by Korean law, and as such, most games made there incorporate that into their game play.
It is only when someone exports these games to the West that the obvious botting/gold spam/selling and Pay for Power cash shop become a problem for the Western audience.
Comments
Crafting has never been really lucrative in any game GATHERING on the other hand, a gold mine. Thats why gold sellers have their inventory to begin with. Make a new spawn go gather the most expensive or most selling item in the game get gold post it on website for sale. Rince and repeat. They dont need anything but a simple macro in many games to gather the stuff.
The argument is 'crafter dont have to buy it they can gather it themselves. Logic fail, even if they gather it themselves they can then turn around and sell it themselves for the same price as they would have had to buy t for. Only thing they lose is an AH fee, if the game even has one. Or they could direct trade (not in this game) and save those fees.
So BDO kills a bunch of birds, they force a gold sink into the game with AH fees. They sort of eliminate gold sellers (the uninitiated ones anyway). They help regulate prices and if a byproduct of that is crafted goods actually being worth more than gathered goods its the ultimate win.
AA was a mess of constant spam, and I spent alot of time killing bots in that game.
Hope NA/EU will have a better security system in place.
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You do not "need" a bot ever, but that would be pretty silly arument to make...if what was what you are trying to say there.
Bots are beneficial for fishing like any other activity.
Not understanding simpliest mechanics, ouch the irony...
Points 2 and 3 are subjective, too early to tell for point 2, and point 3 should be illegal in any game, and preventing it is always an ongoing battle, though it has to be said, if RMT'ers are unable to operate then there will be by default, less botters as a consequence.
In a few months time we'll know one way or another whether it has worked, but, logic would seem to indicate that the measures in place will be extremely detrimental to RMT'ers.
Still, if one wants to look after some data, EVE is a good example.
I even did post some links, not sure if it was this thread tho. CCP proved over and over that after mass bot bans, the market just correct itself to pretty much same prices and volumes and the life goes on as usual.
It also proves that inflation supposedly caused by bots is not taking place in EVE, the game economy is experiencing deflation for over the decade, and the game has bots too. Thus it is unlikely the cause are the bots but it is the economy setup.
So yeah, it is likely to say that RMT does not impact game economies much if any. There is not even any economical background for such claims - RMT farmers just do what any player would do, they farm. Yes, botting make it more efficient but that's it. It does not turn "functional" economy into defunct, it is merely a catalyst - the economy will move into it's direction faster.
Have you noticed how no one was actually able to even speciffy what this supposed "harm" should be? How precisely the economy is "hurt"? What is the supposed negative effect(s)?
Nada. It is just a silly twaddle.
2) isn't subjective, nor it is too early. The game was already released in 3 regions, ffs.
The incentive part isn't subjective either, in case you accept concensus on economical theories.
RMT and "ruined game economies" is a bogeyman for those who prefer scapegoats over rational thinking...or just not capable of it..make your pick.
Example of how RMT into a game (Monopoly) can be bad:
Once again using the launch of Elder Scrolls Online as an example, two-and-a-half weeks after launch, lead game designer Matt Firor published a "State of the Game Address" to the player base in which he acknowledged the impact of the RMT operations on the Zenimax staff:
Activision/Blizzard also acknowledges the effects of hackers on the staffing requirements for World of Warcraft:
Invalid argument.
It essientially says that there is someone who has to win the game and that there will be someone complaining why they lost. Do some players feel cheated if others use RMT? Sure, but that is about all. Same way there will be players that will feel cheated about no-lifers.
No impact on economy going on there.
2) ESO
Yes, like said before that is the only relevant impact of RMT - accompanied illegal activity. RMT in itself, the act of trading real world currency for virtual items is not harmful(besides lost profits for the company but they can only blame themselves for poor monetization).
Again, no economy impact there.
Simple as that.
How does it NOT affect economy when people get a large some of ingame money with real money? That money (As was written in the quote) comes also from stolen accounts. That money also will be used to buy stuff from the auction house and given time will change their original cost affecting any crafter in the game.
In archeage for example in the beginning you could harvest plants or mine all day long and get your fair share of money. Given time with bots and RMT the prices went down so low that there was no point in mining them yourself, just buy them. This ruined the income of many people which had to resort in other means of getting money.
To continue with archeage, buying charms and regrade scrolls was also a huge money sink that people hated. With RMT however people could control the market since they could afford them to regrade equipment/weapons and sell them for absurd prices.
Explain to me how that is NOT affecting the economy?
Given that supply and demand remain unchanged for final products, lower material prices means products they are made of are also cheaper. You make less but it is also cheaper for your to buy.
Same swings the other way round, once someones starts buying out entire market, it creates a supply hole you can easily fill in and make lots of money on it.
Calling out someone obtuse, yet not understanding basic principles of topic you wish to talk about is an approach you might want to re-think.
As far as I know there's more than 1 mmo.
Or maybe the most logical reason being bots farm constantly these sources. Being easy to acquire or not, most of the population is lazy, they won't go farm them themselves, they'd rather buy it from the ah and be done with it. That is where cafters get their money, from lazy people. If bots are going to take their main source of income and thus making it very cheap in the end, they will have to adapt and do something else or remain poor.
Burden of proof is on your shoulders, not mines.
Perhaps you should look up 'stability' in virtual economies.
and in particular how it relates to other players in the games concerned, crime etc.
And while i freely admit that Wikipedia is not the be all and end all, and often more an accumulation of opinions, you haven't provided even that much in defence of your own arguments.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_economy
Lack of evidence on your end does not make my claims "wild". Prove your claims to be legitimate instead.
Well, you did not address any of my points, so I guess that is also an answer.
Since your stance on players being hacked in games is also somewhat questionable as regards to RMT, indeed your whole stance on the subject, i can only come to the conclusion that if you are not somehow involved, that you do unfortunately condone it.
Why else would you have the stance you do on the subject when it flies in the face of the evidence, when developers/publishers themselves go to such extreme measures, have teams of people involved in combatting such practices that you somehow are perfectly fine with.
Not that your points had merit, but they were addressed, obviously the answers were not the ones you were looking for.
It is only when someone exports these games to the West that the obvious botting/gold spam/selling and Pay for Power cash shop become a problem for the Western audience.
In Korea/China/Taiwan, they like it just fine.