Some classes in EQ were KoS in their own hometown, which could be fixed by endless faction grinding. This lasted until PoK gave everyone a free pass. If you want to be a special race/class combo, you should have to spend a very long time getting there, like an epic but with class changes.
Some classes in EQ were KoS in their own hometown, which could be fixed by endless faction grinding. This lasted until PoK gave everyone a free pass. If you want to be a special race/class combo, you should have to spend a very long time getting there, like an epic but with class changes.
I'm actually quite fond of that concept.
I mean, let's be honest, if a fire-vulnerable Troll were a fire-flinging Wizard, I'm pretty sure the other fire-sensitive Trolls would not like him very much and would likely banish him out of some sense of fear/rebuke/scorn.
I agree with this to a point. I think lore has to be considered as well. If a certain people do not tolerate members of their race practicing shamanistic "witchcraft", I don't think it should be an option at character creation. However, I wouldn't be against a way via questing to unlock a class that wouldn't be available at the start. Of course, such a trial shouldn't be easy or available at low level, would probably require gaining reputation with a shaman guild and should come with a serious negative alignment hit with your own people.
Thats a good idea. I really dont think they should restrict a class just because their society doesnt "tolerate" it but if they can do something like this that'd be even better than just putting them in at character creation. All societies have something they dont "tolerate" or look down on but that doesnt automatically stop members of that society from going against that. History is filled with just such examples and players shouldnt be limited to falling in line. I really hate when developers shoe-horn that in (like Draenei Warlocks).
However if they do build a path to switch classes (or reroll), and/or lower their starting rep then I dont think they should significantly penalize players through stats, aside from the typical -x starting base stats or what have you.
Magic works better with characters that have a high intelligence, but Trolls start out with -2 to their intelligence stat no matter how many points you apply to it. Therefore, you could make an Troll Mage, but you'd be better off, and be able to cast more powerful spells, if you picked just about any other playable race in the game.
Than what would be the point of making a Troll Mage. Sounds like waste of resources.
This is the argument of the typical 2010's gamer who doesn't understand role playing and only looks at a game from a roll playing aspect.
I'm not saying that the Shadowrun system will ever be used, I'm simply saying I prefer it over others. Today's gamers have no concept of gaming other than min/maxxing a character and going for max DPS.
In the past we would view a Troll Mage as a fun challenge. If you build one and you're still successful at the game, then you've overcome more odds than the player who picked the highest intelligence race and rolled their way through the content.
In the end it's about removing restrictions. Today's MMO's have so many training wheels on them that if it was a bike you could ride the goddamn thing upside down. I'm saying pull those training wheels off, take the guardrails down and let us, the players, make our own decisions about what and how we want to play.
I agree with this to a point. I think lore has to be considered as well. If a certain people do not tolerate members of their race practicing shamanistic "witchcraft", I don't think it should be an option at character creation. However, I wouldn't be against a way via questing to unlock a class that wouldn't be available at the start. Of course, such a trial shouldn't be easy or available at low level, would probably require gaining reputation with a shaman guild and should come with a serious negative alignment hit with your own people.
I see what you're saying, and I completely understand good story driven and lore driven game restrictions. If the world that the game designer has built doesn't have black powder weapons in it, then I completely understand not having them available.
If the lore is that Minotaur are a very superstitious race of beings and they banish or kill anyone practicing "witchcraft" in their communities, then that makes a good, compelling reason to say "No, we don't want you starting off the game as a Minotaur Sorcerer."
What I am totally against is what I see, for instance, in Black Desert Online. All rangers are women... just cuz. Just cause you're lazy shitty developers, or just cause if a man touches a bow and arrows in BDO, then they will spontaneously fucking combust?
Or in D&D based games where only "these three classes can use a long sword." Why? Because if a mage touches a steel sword then a portal opens up and sucks them to the seventh layer of burrito?
EQ2 had betrayal quests that let you switch between similar sub classes (Necro <-> Conjuror, Wizard <-> Warlock, etc.). It involved betraying your faction and doing quests, etc. to get reputation with another faction until you could take on the other class. They had deity quests as well.
I think form a Questing and Lore Perspective EQ2 had 90% of things right. They just failed in other areas.
Why not let players choose themselves who, what and how they want to play? I don't care about any race/ class - combination ever... as long as the females don't wear beards.
Because games have lore, and if the class isn't in line with the lore it's stupid.
For example in EQ Ogre's were very a very tribal, unintelligent race with a very basic language. Having them be able to be wizards (who were in the game world paragons of knowledge, etc) is a little dumb. However, them being shamans, who were tribalistic type of magic, made sense within the lore of the world.
At some point you have to set a line as to where you won't cross when it comes to player choice, and such.
What if your mentioned Ogre has unknown powers noticed by a wizard, who then adopted and raised him to finally teach him how to use his full potential by going the route of using magic, therefor becoming a wizard, too?
I'm aware of people like you, who would like to have everything within the game - especially the players themselves - as close to the lore as possible. Exceptions like my example above should be part of the lore, as well. Just think of D&D, how many characters of its world don't fit the actual behavior and lifestyle of their race/ class that they are normally known for?
I know this would lead to too many players creating such exceptions not following the original path. But solving this issue is easy by simply adding optional but still hard to complete unlocking mechanics to remove the restriction. This way only players with a real intention of playing such an exception will be able to do so, without flooding the game world with them.
If that's the lore of the world. Fine. But in the example of EQ, it's not. It would be like trying to teach a dog to play chess, its just not gonna happen.
But lets take your example and run with it. Maybe there is an NPC Ogre in the world that happens to be super intelligent and becomes a wizard as such. He is the exception, not the rule. His existence shouldn't mean that everyone that starts an ogre has the ability to be a wizard. It is not internally consistent.
Again, I don't intrinsically have issues with this, but it depends on what the creators of the game and the lore of the game is.
My biggest issue is too many games are not internally consistent, and they do so under the guise of "player choice" and "fun".
I mean imagine how stupid it would be if you were watching Lord of the Rings, and in the background you saw a guy walking around in full tactical gear with an M-16, and the movie makers said "well special forces guys are cool and fun, so that's why we put it in!". It IS immersion breaking because it's not internally consistent.
So, ultimately it depends on what Brad and Co decide to do with the games Lore.
Just another example, if High Elves are supposed to be the "good" race, and Dark Elves are the "evil" bad race. It doesn't make sense for Dark Elves to be able to be paladins. Vice versa it also doesn't make sense for High Elves to be Shadow Knights, or Necromancers.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
Why not let players choose themselves who, what and how they want to play? I don't care about any race/ class - combination ever... as long as the females don't wear beards.
Because games have lore, and if the class isn't in line with the lore it's stupid.
For example in EQ Ogre's were very a very tribal, unintelligent race with a very basic language. Having them be able to be wizards (who were in the game world paragons of knowledge, etc) is a little dumb. However, them being shamans, who were tribalistic type of magic, made sense within the lore of the world.
At some point you have to set a line as to where you won't cross when it comes to player choice, and such.
What if your mentioned Ogre has unknown powers noticed by a wizard, who then adopted and raised him to finally teach him how to use his full potential by going the route of using magic, therefor becoming a wizard, too?
I'm aware of people like you, who would like to have everything within the game - especially the players themselves - as close to the lore as possible. Exceptions like my example above should be part of the lore, as well. Just think of D&D, how many characters of its world don't fit the actual behavior and lifestyle of their race/ class that they are normally known for?
I know this would lead to too many players creating such exceptions not following the original path. But solving this issue is easy by simply adding optional but still hard to complete unlocking mechanics to remove the restriction. This way only players with a real intention of playing such an exception will be able to do so, without flooding the game world with them.
If that's the lore of the world. Fine. But in the example of EQ, it's not. It would be like trying to teach a dog to play chess, its just not gonna happen.
But lets take your example and run with it. Maybe there is an NPC Ogre in the world that happens to be super intelligent and becomes a wizard as such. He is the exception, not the rule. His existence shouldn't mean that everyone that starts an ogre has the ability to be a wizard. It is not internally consistent.
Again, I don't intrinsically have issues with this, but it depends on what the creators of the game and the lore of the game is.
My biggest issue is too many games are not internally consistent, and they do so under the guise of "player choice" and "fun".
I mean imagine how stupid it would be if you were watching Lord of the Rings, and in the background you saw a guy walking around in full tactical gear with an M-16, and the movie makers said "well special forces guys are cool and fun, so that's why we put it in!". It IS immersion breaking because it's not internally consistent.
So, ultimately it depends on what Brad and Co decide to do with the games Lore.
Just another example, if High Elves are supposed to be the "good" race, and Dark Elves are the "evil" bad race. It doesn't make sense for Dark Elves to be able to be paladins. Vice versa it also doesn't make sense for High Elves to be Shadow Knights, or Necromancers.
I can't believe you said my Ogre Wizard is "not internally consistent". I mean, just because he is not like his brothers and sisters? You are so racist !
Lets be honest. I see no traceable reason why everyone should strictly follow the one and only path corresponding to their race's or class's lore without any exception. It's not like it's completely impossible to make it work like some kind of achievement or upgrade to the common roles, f.e. like in ESO with its emperor mechanics, just not restricted to one player only. By the way, EQ2 was pretty close to what I am talking about (as you can read in Darksworm's comment above yours on this page).
I agree that a deluge of exceptions breaks the immersion, lore and fun. But a well-done implementation of unlocking mechanics would result in the opposite, since no one would be able to be such an exception straight from the start.
I can't believe you said my Ogre Wizard is "not internally consistent". I mean, just because he is not like his brothers and sisters? You are so racist !
Lets be honest. I see no traceable reason why everyone should strictly follow the one and only path corresponding to their race's or class's lore without any exception. It's not like it's completely impossible to make it work like some kind of achievement or upgrade to the common roles, f.e. like in ESO with its emperor mechanics, just not restricted to one player only. By the way, EQ2 was pretty close to what I am talking about (as you can read in Darksworm's comment above yours on this page).
I agree that a deluge of exceptions breaks the immersion, lore and fun. But a well-done implementation of unlocking mechanics would result in the opposite, since no one would be able to be such an exception straight from the start.
I hear what you're saying. And like Dullahan said, I wouldn't be opposed to something like a relatively long/difficult quest that would have negatives like having a massive faction hit with your home city, etc, being included into the game, that would allow you to essentially say become a "dark elf paladin" or something along those lines.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
I can't believe you said my Ogre Wizard is "not internally consistent". I mean, just because he is not like his brothers and sisters? You are so racist !
Lets be honest. I see no traceable reason why everyone should strictly follow the one and only path corresponding to their race's or class's lore without any exception. It's not like it's completely impossible to make it work like some kind of achievement or upgrade to the common roles, f.e. like in ESO with its emperor mechanics, just not restricted to one player only. By the way, EQ2 was pretty close to what I am talking about (as you can read in Darksworm's comment above yours on this page).
I agree that a deluge of exceptions breaks the immersion, lore and fun. But a well-done implementation of unlocking mechanics would result in the opposite, since no one would be able to be such an exception straight from the start.
I hear what you're saying. And like Dullahan said, I wouldn't be opposed to something like a relatively long/difficult quest that would have negatives like having a massive faction hit with your home city, etc, being included into the game, that would allow you to essentially say become a "dark elf paladin" or something along those lines.
Yea and I would be good with that too where if it was a process for a Dark Elf to become a Paladin through trials and tribulations; just not by creating one and starting the game. As long as the Developers don't change it just because we have forum trolls crying that it takes more effort than starting the game to get what they want.
This game is not striving to be like current MMO's, It is going to be group driven, difficult and frankly not the game for everyone. I am pretty excited personally and I have been backing it for some time. I like the idea of the race/class lock as I feel like many others have said " it adds to the lore"
I honestly prefer the way that some early pen and paper RPG's handled this concept.
In Shadowrun, for instance, you could make an Troll Mage all day long if you wished, but Shadowrun character development is heavily based around the characters attributes.
I agree here. I'd go further and say that if a race doesn't have trainers for a certain class, one would have to gain faction with a race who does in order to initially train- and make your way to that races starting area...
_____________________________ "Ad eundum quo nemo ante iit"
if a dev team decides that it's better to have class / race restrictions in THEIR game, then that is their choice to do
if people don't like it. play another game. also, some restrictions infact ARE quite legit. a tauren rogue, orc paladin or similiar combos may be concidered stupid :>
"I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"
Because games have lore, and if the class isn't in line with the lore it's stupid.
For example in EQ Ogre's were very a very tribal, unintelligent race with a very basic language. Having them be able to be wizards (who were in the game world paragons of knowledge, etc) is a little dumb. However, them being shamans, who were tribalistic type of magic, made sense within the lore of the world.
At some point you have to set a line as to where you won't cross when it comes to player choice, and such.
I can't believe you said my Ogre Wizard is "not internally consistent". I mean, just because he is not like his brothers and sisters? You are so racist !
It's funny how over the years Everquest lost the racial differences. In effect, any differences which did exist were so small it was ignored.
And that seems to be the way it went for the whole game. Class homogenization. Item homogenization. Across the board.
And so many things are going on, it's hard to figure out what causes all of it. It's not political correctness, lol. Doesn't work as explanation.
I think a better idea is players just don't like significant differences between things. It can be a technical reason, like they don't want to manage it. They might feel it's too tedious to examine differences between thigns. Or maybe it's envy. Like they see someone else do something and they can't tolerate not being able to do it themselves. So they convince themselves they have to have it. I mean, IT'S NOT FUN TO NOT HAVE IT. They'll quit.
Ohh, it's not fun. Catch that? Developers can't ignore that. Whether a player is soloing or grouping, it's just no FUN without XYZ!
And I think another reason is inflation of stats and class abilities and so on maybe forced the developers to garbage all of it in favor of a simpler system. A system which, in effect, streamlined everything. Like taking a shredder and shredding up everything until it all looked hte same.
Some of it was tied to mudflation too, I think. Early on, a -15 strength might have been felt more because stat gear was hard to find. But as expansions were released and levelling was much faster, that -15 became negligeable. At level 10, a player would come out of the mines with armor comparable to raid armor in old EQ. And they also hit the stat caps a lot quicker, eliminating the differences. The developers never tried to make it stay meaningful. Probably because of the reasons above, and others.
Why not let players choose themselves who, what and how they want to play? I don't care about any race/ class - combination ever... as long as the females don't wear beards.
Because games have lore, and if the class isn't in line with the lore it's stupid.
For example in EQ Ogre's were very a very tribal, unintelligent race with a very basic language. Having them be able to be wizards (who were in the game world paragons of knowledge, etc) is a little dumb. However, them being shamans, who were tribalistic type of magic, made sense within the lore of the world.
At some point you have to set a line as to where you won't cross when it comes to player choice, and such.
What if your mentioned Ogre has unknown powers noticed by a wizard, who then adopted and raised him to finally teach him how to use his full potential by going the route of using magic, therefor becoming a wizard, too?
I'm aware of people like you, who would like to have everything within the game - especially the players themselves - as close to the lore as possible. Exceptions like my example above should be part of the lore, as well. Just think of D&D, how many characters of its world don't fit the actual behavior and lifestyle of their race/ class that they are normally known for?
I know this would lead to too many players creating such exceptions not following the original path. But solving this issue is easy by simply adding optional but still hard to complete unlocking mechanics to remove the restriction. This way only players with a real intention of playing such an exception will be able to do so, without flooding the game world with them.
Neverforgetlove,
D&D is a good example of how a character can break a class lock, just look at Drizzit. The problem is allowing players to select it when they start because players today are so use to bitching up a storm why they should put X amount of effort into getting a class unlock. That is why I too feel that the classes should have a race lock and not care what people think after that. The reason is because if enough people bitch on the forum daily developers will change things that are TOO HARD or TOO TIME CONSUMING even if the path is not meant to be followed by most people. We focus so much on making everyone happy that its time we make a group that can support the game happy and ignore the rest. Like P2P players vs F2P players.
Unless you feel that they should have stuff that is not easy or fast to do and expect it to not change just to make a bunch of people on the forum happy. I might go for that.
Edit: Just so you're aware i agree with you, i'm just adding more support to your statements so that perhaps other people who might read them gain some understanding.
See, this is the disconnect. Just because a single character (or a few) in the lore of a world COULD break a class lock, doesn't mean that literally EVERYONE who plays the game should have that same choice.
It's the same problem that Star Wars games constantly run afoul of. Jedi and Sith are better in every possible way than any other "class" in the lore. Just like Gandalf is a badass compared to any of the other characters in LOTR. When you allow all players to have that choice you dilute the purpose of those characters in the lore of the world.
One of the primary reasons why EQ was great and so many modern MMOs are not is because in EQ you were NOTHING. You were NOT special. That was the point. The idea was to make something of yourself. The idea was to have characters in the lore who WERE special (firiona vie, for example).
Modern MMO's start you out as being the savior of the world, the guy who will be the sole reason the world doesn't explode. So, if you're the savior of the world, and the guy you just ran by on the road to the next quest hub is ALSO the savior of the world, and literally EVERYONE you see that's not an NPC is the savior of the world... then who is really the savior of the world?
As i said, it dilutes reality, it dilutes the lore, and it ruins games. That kind of shit is fine in single player RPGs. But in multiplayer RPG's it completely destroys the purpose of an MMO which is to create a living, breathing world that you and your friends can adventure in.
If every other car you saw on the road was a Ferrari 458, they would no longer be special.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
Race locks help sell the world as real, gender locks are just sexist and unnecessary. And that's coming from someone who thinks feminists are the biggest hypocrites on planet earth.
I'm a fan of race/class restrictions. Although I would love seeing epic quests to change your class. I don't think that option should make every class available to every race, but it could make for a few lore-appropriate allowances.
An easy example would be a Skar Dire Lord forsaking his vows and becoming a Crusader, or vice-versa. The quest could even grant a title like "the Oathbreaker" or something.
i like it as long as you can group with every race. sure it makes sense to not allow an ogre to be an intelligence based class but at the same time, if we are going by EQ standards, does it make sense to allow an evil and good race (enemy factions) to group together?
where do you draw the line in terms of staying true to the lore?
I'm not a fan of gender lock but I do like race lock when it makes sense. Like Ogre Wizards need not apply. This is one of the few MMOs I want to play.
One option, sort of a half-way between the two philosophies, is to still allow "any race/any class", but make so that combos like the Ogre Wizard are discouraged, but not disallowed. Say Ogres have +4 on Strength, but -4 on Intelligence, a real disadvantage to pursuing the wizard class ... but allowable. And therefore, there would be few of them.
You could always look at it as: Not all humans are smart and not all ogres are stupid. Stereotyping is no less obnoxious in a fantasy world as it is in the real world. I'd love to see character creation that allows for more randomized stats (DnD style) with a few extra points to allocate for preference.
Magic works better with characters that have a high intelligence, but Trolls start out with -2 to their intelligence stat no matter how many points you apply to it. Therefore, you could make an Troll Mage, but you'd be better off, and be able to cast more powerful spells, if you picked just about any other playable race in the game.
Than what would be the point of making a Troll Mage. Sounds like waste of resources.
This is the argument of the typical 2010's gamer who doesn't understand role playing and only looks at a game from a roll playing aspect.
I'm not saying that the Shadowrun system will ever be used, I'm simply saying I prefer it over others. Today's gamers have no concept of gaming other than min/maxxing a character and going for max DPS.
In the past we would view a Troll Mage as a fun challenge. If you build one and you're still successful at the game, then you've overcome more odds than the player who picked the highest intelligence race and rolled their way through the content.
In the end it's about removing restrictions. Today's MMO's have so many training wheels on them that if it was a bike you could ride the goddamn thing upside down. I'm saying pull those training wheels off, take the guardrails down and let us, the players, make our own decisions about what and how we want to play.
I agree with this to a point. I think lore has to be considered as well. If a certain people do not tolerate members of their race practicing shamanistic "witchcraft", I don't think it should be an option at character creation. However, I wouldn't be against a way via questing to unlock a class that wouldn't be available at the start. Of course, such a trial shouldn't be easy or available at low level, would probably require gaining reputation with a shaman guild and should come with a serious negative alignment hit with your own people.
Cultural taboos don't stop some people in the real world from pursuing their dreams, why should it in a fantasy game?
Magic works better with characters that have a high intelligence, but Trolls start out with -2 to their intelligence stat no matter how many points you apply to it. Therefore, you could make an Troll Mage, but you'd be better off, and be able to cast more powerful spells, if you picked just about any other playable race in the game.
Than what would be the point of making a Troll Mage. Sounds like waste of resources.
This is the argument of the typical 2010's gamer who doesn't understand role playing and only looks at a game from a roll playing aspect.
I'm not saying that the Shadowrun system will ever be used, I'm simply saying I prefer it over others. Today's gamers have no concept of gaming other than min/maxxing a character and going for max DPS.
In the past we would view a Troll Mage as a fun challenge. If you build one and you're still successful at the game, then you've overcome more odds than the player who picked the highest intelligence race and rolled their way through the content.
In the end it's about removing restrictions. Today's MMO's have so many training wheels on them that if it was a bike you could ride the goddamn thing upside down. I'm saying pull those training wheels off, take the guardrails down and let us, the players, make our own decisions about what and how we want to play.
I agree with this to a point. I think lore has to be considered as well. If a certain people do not tolerate members of their race practicing shamanistic "witchcraft", I don't think it should be an option at character creation. However, I wouldn't be against a way via questing to unlock a class that wouldn't be available at the start. Of course, such a trial shouldn't be easy or available at low level, would probably require gaining reputation with a shaman guild and should come with a serious negative alignment hit with your own people.
Cultural taboos don't stop some people in the real world from pursuing their dreams, why should it in a fantasy game?
Uhm, because this isn't the real world? It's a game?
If the lore of the game was based on the lore of the (modern) real world, then that would be fine. However, it's not. It's a fantasy world with fantasy races that have fantasy cultures.
The beautiful thing about entertainment, is if you don't agree with the ideologies exhibited in a game, tv show, movie, etc... you simply don't participate in it.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
Comments
If you want to be a special race/class combo, you should have to spend a very long time getting there, like an epic but with class changes.
I mean, let's be honest, if a fire-vulnerable Troll were a fire-flinging Wizard, I'm pretty sure the other fire-sensitive Trolls would not like him very much and would likely banish him out of some sense of fear/rebuke/scorn.
However if they do build a path to switch classes (or reroll), and/or lower their starting rep then I dont think they should significantly penalize players through stats, aside from the typical -x starting base stats or what have you.
If the lore is that Minotaur are a very superstitious race of beings and they banish or kill anyone practicing "witchcraft" in their communities, then that makes a good, compelling reason to say "No, we don't want you starting off the game as a Minotaur Sorcerer."
What I am totally against is what I see, for instance, in Black Desert Online. All rangers are women... just cuz. Just cause you're lazy shitty developers, or just cause if a man touches a bow and arrows in BDO, then they will spontaneously fucking combust?
Or in D&D based games where only "these three classes can use a long sword." Why? Because if a mage touches a steel sword then a portal opens up and sucks them to the seventh layer of burrito?
I think form a Questing and Lore Perspective EQ2 had 90% of things right. They just failed in other areas.
If that's the lore of the world. Fine. But in the example of EQ, it's not. It would be like trying to teach a dog to play chess, its just not gonna happen.
But lets take your example and run with it. Maybe there is an NPC Ogre in the world that happens to be super intelligent and becomes a wizard as such. He is the exception, not the rule. His existence shouldn't mean that everyone that starts an ogre has the ability to be a wizard. It is not internally consistent.
Again, I don't intrinsically have issues with this, but it depends on what the creators of the game and the lore of the game is.
My biggest issue is too many games are not internally consistent, and they do so under the guise of "player choice" and "fun".
I mean imagine how stupid it would be if you were watching Lord of the Rings, and in the background you saw a guy walking around in full tactical gear with an M-16, and the movie makers said "well special forces guys are cool and fun, so that's why we put it in!". It IS immersion breaking because it's not internally consistent.
So, ultimately it depends on what Brad and Co decide to do with the games Lore.
Just another example, if High Elves are supposed to be the "good" race, and Dark Elves are the "evil" bad race. It doesn't make sense for Dark Elves to be able to be paladins. Vice versa it also doesn't make sense for High Elves to be Shadow Knights, or Necromancers.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
- Friedrich Nietzsche
I can't believe you said my Ogre Wizard is "not internally consistent". I mean, just because he is not like his brothers and sisters? You are so racist !
Lets be honest. I see no traceable reason why everyone should strictly follow the one and only path corresponding to their race's or class's lore without any exception. It's not like it's completely impossible to make it work like some kind of achievement or upgrade to the common roles, f.e. like in ESO with its emperor mechanics, just not restricted to one player only. By the way, EQ2 was pretty close to what I am talking about (as you can read in Darksworm's comment above yours on this page).
I agree that a deluge of exceptions breaks the immersion, lore and fun. But a well-done implementation of unlocking mechanics would result in the opposite, since no one would be able to be such an exception straight from the start.
I hear what you're saying. And like Dullahan said, I wouldn't be opposed to something like a relatively long/difficult quest that would have negatives like having a massive faction hit with your home city, etc, being included into the game, that would allow you to essentially say become a "dark elf paladin" or something along those lines.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
- Friedrich Nietzsche
I like the idea of the race/class lock as I feel like many others have said " it adds to the lore"
_____________________________
"Ad eundum quo nemo ante iit"
if people don't like it. play another game.
also, some restrictions infact ARE quite legit. a tauren rogue, orc paladin or similiar combos may be concidered stupid :>
"I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"
거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
And that seems to be the way it went for the whole game. Class homogenization. Item homogenization. Across the board.
And so many things are going on, it's hard to figure out what causes all of it. It's not political correctness, lol. Doesn't work as explanation.
I think a better idea is players just don't like significant differences between things. It can be a technical reason, like they don't want to manage it. They might feel it's too tedious to examine differences between thigns. Or maybe it's envy. Like they see someone else do something and they can't tolerate not being able to do it themselves. So they convince themselves they have to have it. I mean, IT'S NOT FUN TO NOT HAVE IT. They'll quit.
Ohh, it's not fun. Catch that? Developers can't ignore that. Whether a player is soloing or grouping, it's just no FUN without XYZ!
And I think another reason is inflation of stats and class abilities and so on maybe forced the developers to garbage all of it in favor of a simpler system. A system which, in effect, streamlined everything. Like taking a shredder and shredding up everything until it all looked hte same.
Some of it was tied to mudflation too, I think. Early on, a -15 strength might have been felt more because stat gear was hard to find. But as expansions were released and levelling was much faster, that -15 became negligeable. At level 10, a player would come out of the mines with armor comparable to raid armor in old EQ. And they also hit the stat caps a lot quicker, eliminating the differences. The developers never tried to make it stay meaningful. Probably because of the reasons above, and others.
j/k
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
See, this is the disconnect. Just because a single character (or a few) in the lore of a world COULD break a class lock, doesn't mean that literally EVERYONE who plays the game should have that same choice.
It's the same problem that Star Wars games constantly run afoul of. Jedi and Sith are better in every possible way than any other "class" in the lore. Just like Gandalf is a badass compared to any of the other characters in LOTR. When you allow all players to have that choice you dilute the purpose of those characters in the lore of the world.
One of the primary reasons why EQ was great and so many modern MMOs are not is because in EQ you were NOTHING. You were NOT special. That was the point. The idea was to make something of yourself. The idea was to have characters in the lore who WERE special (firiona vie, for example).
Modern MMO's start you out as being the savior of the world, the guy who will be the sole reason the world doesn't explode. So, if you're the savior of the world, and the guy you just ran by on the road to the next quest hub is ALSO the savior of the world, and literally EVERYONE you see that's not an NPC is the savior of the world... then who is really the savior of the world?
As i said, it dilutes reality, it dilutes the lore, and it ruins games. That kind of shit is fine in single player RPGs. But in multiplayer RPG's it completely destroys the purpose of an MMO which is to create a living, breathing world that you and your friends can adventure in.
If every other car you saw on the road was a Ferrari 458, they would no longer be special.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
- Friedrich Nietzsche
An easy example would be a Skar Dire Lord forsaking his vows and becoming a Crusader, or vice-versa. The quest could even grant a title like "the Oathbreaker" or something.
where do you draw the line in terms of staying true to the lore?
The world is going to the dogs, which is just how I planned it!
You could always look at it as: Not all humans are smart and not all ogres are stupid. Stereotyping is no less obnoxious in a fantasy world as it is in the real world. I'd love to see character creation that allows for more randomized stats (DnD style) with a few extra points to allocate for preference.
Cultural taboos don't stop some people in the real world from pursuing their dreams, why should it in a fantasy game?
If the lore of the game was based on the lore of the (modern) real world, then that would be fine. However, it's not. It's a fantasy world with fantasy races that have fantasy cultures.
The beautiful thing about entertainment, is if you don't agree with the ideologies exhibited in a game, tv show, movie, etc... you simply don't participate in it.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
- Friedrich Nietzsche