So after a long break I tried to look back into mmorpgs again, owning guild wars 2 I decided to look into it and yep same problems as before, many things are still not even being looked into and the same knee jerk force into playstyles people dont want to play.
I finally gave into neverwinter and gave it a try and loved it but people still complain about p2w at endgame and pvp and its really to bad because I really liked the combat and customization, not to mention its fantasy which I enjoy allot.
I tried blade and soul and it was a cool game but I couldnt get past that story and voice acting.
Ive looked into others but really they are buy to play and im not going to spend my money without a free trial im talking about black desert and eso right now.
I wouldnt mind giving wow another go if I could get into the combat but I cannot, if that was the case id just go back to eq1, hek I would of went back long ago, I couldnt even get back into eq2, single player rpgs have ruined mmorpgs for me lol.
And i already knew everything about the others and looked at them again and yep still in horrible states. So objectively this seems to be the case, and people need to learn to agree on this.
I would have to disagree with you on the horrible state statement. I find that BDO has filled a niche for me that has been missing for many years. Little has come out that fit my open ended playstyle like BDO does. I can log in for an hour and do just about anything I can think of and feel like I made some type of progress and I do not feel like everything was just handed to me in the process.
So after a long break I tried to look back into mmorpgs again, owning guild wars 2 I decided to look into it and yep same problems as before, many things are still not even being looked into and the same knee jerk force into playstyles people dont want to play.
I finally gave into neverwinter and gave it a try and loved it but people still complain about p2w at endgame and pvp and its really to bad because I really liked the combat and customization, not to mention its fantasy which I enjoy allot.
I tried blade and soul and it was a cool game but I couldnt get past that story and voice acting.
Ive looked into others but really they are buy to play and im not going to spend my money without a free trial im talking about black desert and eso right now.
I wouldnt mind giving wow another go if I could get into the combat but I cannot, if that was the case id just go back to eq1, hek I would of went back long ago, I couldnt even get back into eq2, single player rpgs have ruined mmorpgs for me lol.
And i already knew everything about the others and looked at them again and yep still in horrible states. So objectively this seems to be the case, and people need to learn to agree on this.
I would have to disagree with you on the horrible state statement. I find that BDO has filled a niche for me that has been missing for many years. Little has come out that fit my open ended playstyle like BDO does. I can log in for an hour and do just about anything I can think of and feel like I made some type of progress and I do not feel like everything was just handed to me in the process.
I actually scored a key and thinking of trying it myself, but I usually dont like asian styled worlds/games.
I can agree with a few of the posts but I think and yes i could be wrong, am old yes it happens. But if you look back I believe the games started going down hill not because of WoW but the F2P gender. But now I think it is just the start of it with the mobile games hitting and a possible even more dumb down to our favorite games.
But then VR could also turn the industry around. In my opinion get rid of the F2P and B2P games that are also turning games into advertisements and trying to get as much as they can from players.
I'm not against them making money but what the hell give us good games and stop trying to make the whole game about some lame in game store (talking to you Zenimax).
Here is fact: Many people say the real game begins at end game
fact #2: End game in today's games is all about grouping.
If one and 2 are right then therefore grouping is still huge.
edit - I also never said solo focused, I said solo friendly. They were. Soloing was a very viable alternative most early games, just not EQ.
You are though, actually people didnt say that until wow to be honest, most mmorpgs where about the rpg aspects like the story, leveling, and etc. Raiding was incredibly time consuming and horrible compared to today. And im talking about grouping through the journey, the original argument was that mmorpgs are to solo focused your only trying to hide what you where saying by just now admitting you are talking about endgame when you never mentioned it once.
You did imply it though even though you didnt use the word focused. It wasnt that viable it was actually faster to level in groups in most older mmorpgs.
No I'm not.
Wow came out over 10 years ago. Today many say that end game is where the real game begins.
I did not in any way shape or form imply solo focused, that was you.
I have always stated solo friendly, it was a very viable alternative in most early games except EQ.
It's faster to level in groups today too.
Yea ok I cant take you seriously when you you cant even admit what you did there. I know your full of it.
No. You just can't accept that you made an obviously wrong and unsupported assumption.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Here is fact: Many people say the real game begins at end game
fact #2: End game in today's games is all about grouping.
If one and 2 are right then therefore grouping is still huge.
edit - I also never said solo focused, I said solo friendly. They were. Soloing was a very viable alternative most early games, just not EQ.
You are though, actually people didnt say that until wow to be honest, most mmorpgs where about the rpg aspects like the story, leveling, and etc. Raiding was incredibly time consuming and horrible compared to today. And im talking about grouping through the journey, the original argument was that mmorpgs are to solo focused your only trying to hide what you where saying by just now admitting you are talking about endgame when you never mentioned it once.
You did imply it though even though you didnt use the word focused. It wasnt that viable it was actually faster to level in groups in most older mmorpgs.
No I'm not.
Wow came out over 10 years ago. Today many say that end game is where the real game begins.
I did not in any way shape or form imply solo focused, that was you.
I have always stated solo friendly, it was a very viable alternative in most early games except EQ.
It's faster to level in groups today too.
Yea ok I cant take you seriously when you you cant even admit what you did there. I know your full of it.
No. You just can't accept that you made an obviously wrong and unsupported assumption.
Xorian7 said: How is it getting better though? Not one person was able to prove this in this thread.
What proof would you or anyone else believe? If half the people here say it's not getting worse....is that proof? You need numbers?
I provided some facts earlier here it is again and willl post as needed, this is only a very small part of the flaws in mmorpgs today.
Here are facts, mmorpgs are now way more solo focused and barely group
focused anymore,
This, at least, can be verified by analysing content now versus content 15 years ago. Not that you (or anyone else) has done such an analysis, but I'll take this as fact as it seems to have proven true.
some like it this way but they are in the minority
This is your subjective opinion and it is also wrong.
The facts to prove you are wrong
More games are solo-focused
The MMO market is expanding, therefore more people are enjoying solo content
Most developers at some point or another release stats on participation in group content. Every single one of them has shown that 70-80% of players never group up.
people dont want to pay for a glorified chat room.
This is your subjective opinion combined with straw man argument.
MMOs, even when mostly solo, are not "glorified chat rooms". All MMOs offer group content, trading etc. Are they as group focused as they used to be? no, but there are a looooong way from just being chat rooms.
Character
development has severaly gone under in mmorpgs since the older days,
there is barely any anymore while some devs promise it its usually one
aspect of it they rely on and people end up over hyping it.
This is your subjective opinion, and it's correctness varies game to game.
2 recent AAA MMORPGs, Elder Scrolls Online and Final Fantasy 14, both offer absolutely massive character development in terms of skills, specs, specialisation etc.
Like others have said, most classes these days offer much more customisation than older games through specs, skill trees, traits, gear sets etc.
The only real difference is that these days it only takes a month or so to "complete" the character development, compared to a longer time period for older grindy games.
Character
customization has gotten worse and worse, and no I dont mean your
looks, im talking about building your class/playstyle.
This is your subjective opinion.
TESO and FFXIV both offer massive amounts of customisation. Most games with classes offer multiple trees with numerous possibilities, so whilst the skills might stay the same the playstyle changes dramatically.
All you can really do is compare game-to-game, some of the old ones are better, some are worse.
Nearly
every mmorpg has gone the max level in a month or less route while also
making the game incredibly easy to solo with no real group classes
anymore considering everyone has similar abilities with just different
skins.
Difficulty is subjective.
For starters, you've got 10 more years experience under your belt than when you used to play the old school MMOs, so naturally everything is going to feel easier. Secondly, you're older and (hopefully) wiser, so you can use your extra life experience to help understand and overcome in game challenges.
As an example: I played SWG at release and found it hard. My first month was really difficult, constantly getting killed by stuff. However, I've been back onto the emulator and found it incredibly easy. This is because I now understand all the systems, character development, gear etc.
Liking / disliking leveling speeds is subjective. I personally prefer short leveling time and I enjoy hitting cap in under a month as it means less time wasted on boring content and more time spent doing what I enjoy.
Not enough group classes - again, this is your subjective opinion. Whilst I agree with you and wish for more group orientated games, we are in the minority. The objective facts are that most players prefer solo content (evidence presented by virtually every developer, combined with increased popularity of solo-centric mmos compared to group mmos).
So, there you go. Out of the "facts" you presented, only 1 was actually a fact and I've refuted the rest of your opinions, even though I agree with your desires. The market disagrees with us, the developers disagree with us, i.e. the facts disagree with us.
Currently Playing: WAR RoR - Spitt rr7X Black Orc | Scrotling rr6X Squig Herder | Scabrous rr4X Shaman
Just because more people enjoy solo content because of wow doesnt mean
they still are, after wow it moved even further away and now more then
ever we see complaints about it.
What are you talking about?
Allot of them are glorified chat rooms the majority do not want that
rather you agree with me or not my experience does tell me that. Just
because people can group doesnt mean there is a reason to, its far more
beneficial for people to solo these days unlike in older mmorpgs where
grouping was more rewarded exp and loot wise.
You listed two
mmorpgs eso and final fantasy when I said the majority of mmorpgs have
been stripped down, im glad a few games are still retaining it but it
doesnt take away from the majority.
Oh please dont give me that
load of crap about 10 years experience, games have gone to casual over
the years as a whole, difficulty may be subjective to a point but it
does get to a point where its watered down instant gratification where
nothing is truly rewarding, there is no difficulty when you can plow
through a game without consequences of dying, if you mean some people
want easy and some want hard of course thats subjective, I never argued
that but there is nothing subjective about what is easy, if its easy it
is easy period. And ive never heard anyone disagree that mmorpgs today
are to easy.
No I said that it was a fact that mmorpg
classes have been stripped down to shallow clones of each other in a
group setting, that is not a subjective point of view and I never met
anyone who would not prefer to be more unique then every other class in
the game, there is no point in classes at all in group settings if they
play the same that isnt subjective. Except we are not in the minority
the only people who want these shortcuts and lack of creativty are devs
who are making money.
So after a long break I tried to look back into mmorpgs again, owning guild wars 2 I decided to look into it and yep same problems as before, many things are still not even being looked into and the same knee jerk force into playstyles people dont want to play.
I finally gave into neverwinter and gave it a try and loved it but people still complain about p2w at endgame and pvp and its really to bad because I really liked the combat and customization, not to mention its fantasy which I enjoy allot.
I tried blade and soul and it was a cool game but I couldnt get past that story and voice acting.
Ive looked into others but really they are buy to play and im not going to spend my money without a free trial im talking about black desert and eso right now.
I wouldnt mind giving wow another go if I could get into the combat but I cannot, if that was the case id just go back to eq1, hek I would of went back long ago, I couldnt even get back into eq2, single player rpgs have ruined mmorpgs for me lol.
And i already knew everything about the others and looked at them again and yep still in horrible states. So objectively this seems to be the case, and people need to learn to agree on this.
Sorry for any inconvenience English...isnt my thing
"Can we just agree that the state of mmorpgs have gotten worse in 2016 so far?" -No,it just keep remain on same level (according my personal experience at least for like 6 years already). Zero innovation
-I didnt get it ,why did you stopped play Neverwinter?
"...and people need to learn to agree on this..." -Are you blaming players? -People that make games dont play even their own games.Publisher cares only about money.Most of new games have good sales only because of PR. (Just look on Tree of Savior.....(sigh))
"...single player rpgs have ruined mmorpgs for me lol." -mmorpgs have ruined single player rpgs for me lol.
Druids,necromancers and wizards who quad kited could all solo very well in Everquest. In AC people soloed too which is a game that is almost as old as Everquest.
There are games I enjoy and I think that the genre has changed and moved on and left you the OP behind but I will not agree that the state of the genre is worse it has changed and evolved and many of the older players have not liked the changes. I have been playing since 1999 and I look at the genre today and I would not agree that it is in a worse off position at all. I may not like some of the changes and indeed I dislike action combat but that is my own problem and it does not mean the genre has gone to the dogs.
The problem with many people is that they assume everyone else is having the same issues they have and want to make their opinion the popular one. Merely insisting you're right does not make it so.
None of the things you provided are bad. Just something you dont like.
They are bad among the majority however, stripping mmorpg elements they make it a mmorpg are bad for the genre, if you want a mobile game go play something else.
No. You only believe they are bad for the majority. Most of the things you stated are not even fact. Those things stripping mmorpg elements is what you believe. Many believe they add to it.
Solo friendly was a big deal in the majority of early MMO's EQ was the outlier. Character customization was always limited. EQ had 5 faces per race (yes they did havea lot of races). Just like then, today's games some have more some have less. I don't really see any changes in character development, still too way reliant on classes. The big mmo's can have max level in a month if thats the way you play it. I've never gotten to max level in any of them.
Group play is still huge, just not always for the leveling part.
See everything you stated can be turned around to say it is good, not bad which reinforces that these are just... wait for it... opinion.
My experiences tell me otherwise im not going to believe they are not among the majority because you say so, and I dont care if you agree with it or not I know what ive seen.
What does rpg depth have to do with face customimzation? Im talking about things that matter more in the long term like building your class. And no soloing was not a big deal, grouping was you clearly played the waterd down versions of it later while some classes could solo better early eq was heavily group focused with a true meaning of mmo.
Group play is not huge anymore unless you count endgame raiding for certain games. And you didnt state everything, you stated two things.
Your experience = your opinion. Opinion is not fact.
I'm talking about class too. Early mmo's everyone in that class was the same. All warriors were the same, all monks... now at least more games have different trees and ways of not being a cookie cutter warrior, in that way character customization is better.
Soloing was big. The majority of early games were solo friendly, again EQ was the outlier. UO, AC, AO - all solo friendly. EQ - not solo friendly although you could still solo it was just slower (not just with rogue )
Group play is still huge, fastest way to level for most games and it is very big at end game I'm told (I don't play end game obviously if I've never made it to the end).
I stated everything you posted.
Actually ones experience can easily be fact, its only opinion to those who havent seen it. Again my experiences outweigh what your saying because I do know they are fact, but it doesnt mean anyone has to agree with me.
No you wherent, you where talking about faces. And no again wrong in everquest 1 classes offered very powerful buffs only unique to the class and even more, there where more roles then the holy trinity and it had loads of classes, in fact the community had to rely on each other for buffs and teleportation, for example a wizard was able to teleport you to certain areas and druids could teleport you to different druid rings while they also had spirit of the wolf buff which was for running speed. Enchanters could buff mana regen and cut downtime amazingly for grouping, allot of these classes and some of the mechanics where carried into eq2.
Your just making up stuff, I doubt you ever played eq1, soloing was not big in eq1, and certainly not ac either or ao, while ao had better solo content, grouping was still a really big part of it.
Nope stop lying grouping is still not huge, no you didnt.
No, he's actually right. Most old MMORPG were combat solo but not solo in the sense of modern games pushing you into your own person story and instances.
EQ was mostly about downtime and forced grouping. There were classes that could solo though. Some better than others like the Necro.
While they had classes to solo they certainly where not solo focused, hes actually wrong.
The Necro was solo aimed. That's why they had some of the least useful grouping stuff and strong pets.
Most other MMORPGs were solo centric combat wise.
Lol no they where not solo centric, if your so focused on this then please give me some examples from these older mmorpgs.
Solo combat is not hard. Interdependency is different than solo combat or solo story mode. Why don't you name MMORPG that were forced group combat like EQ.
I asked you first bud your the one trying to say otherwise, I have a feeling you ever played older mmorpgs to begin with but anarchy online was very similar to eq but with different skins while some classes can solo like there version of the druid with roots and dots they also had allot of classes reliant on groups, however anarchy online had one or two more pet classes to be fair.
Now its your turn.
I was at work. Honestly because it seems pointless since only EQ was the only game that was very solo unfriendly or impossible for classes. UO, AC, DAoC, M59, Darksun, Runscape, SWG, Istaria, City of Heroes and so and so on. Just about every old school game was solo friendly barring EQ.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
Just because more people enjoy solo content because of wow doesnt mean
they still are, after wow it moved even further away and now more then
ever we see complaints about it.
10-15 years ago, MMORPGs had more of a group focus and were harder. The market was small, it remained a niche hobby - fact
Since WoW, more and more MMORPGs have become more casual and solo focused. The market is now orders of magnitude bigger - fact
So, if not many people played MMORPGs during the era that you liked them, but millions more do play them now, what does that tell you?
According to you, this just means that all modern players are complete idiots undeserving of a good game and that all developers are scam-artists. Do you see how flawed your reasoning is?
The market responded to player needs - the silent majority wants and enjoys the modern era of MMORPGs which is why the market is expanding. This simple fact proves you wrong in your argument.
What are you talking about?
Allot of them are glorified chat rooms the majority do not want that
rather you agree with me or not my experience does tell me that. Just
because people can group doesnt mean there is a reason to, its far more
beneficial for people to solo these days unlike in older mmorpgs where
grouping was more rewarded exp and loot wise.
Strawman argument is fallacious and the fact you keep using it proves you don't know what you are talking about.
You listed two
mmorpgs eso and final fantasy when I said the majority of mmorpgs have
been stripped down, im glad a few games are still retaining it but it
doesnt take away from the majority.
I'm not an expert in old school MMOs, the only one I played was SWG.
However, having done some research, it looks like most old school MMOs offered the same or less character development than today's MMORPGs (I'm deliberately excluding browsers mmos / mis-classified games from this).
Oh please dont give me that
load of crap about 10 years experience, games have gone to casual over
the years as a whole, difficulty may be subjective to a point but it
does get to a point where its watered down instant gratification where
nothing is truly rewarding, there is no difficulty when you can plow
through a game without consequences of dying, if you mean some people
want easy and some want hard of course thats subjective, I never argued
that but there is nothing subjective about what is easy, if its easy it
is easy period. And ive never heard anyone disagree that mmorpgs today
are to easy.
I personally find MMORPGs to be easy, the difficulty has only ever come through working in groups.
However, from the sounds of it, you and I are part of the hardcore / semi-hardcore crowd who also have tons of experience. We're part of a very small minority of gamers who value challenge.
I suggest you go out and speak to the silent majority, it might open your eyes. I ran a guild for 6 years and recruited 100s of players in many different games. I was always shocked by how difficult people found the games. Like SW:TOR for example, it is the easiest MMO I've ever played but I met tons of players who were just crap.
Also, every single MMO I've played, including SWG, was full of forum posts asking for content to be nerfed. The majority DO want easy content, whether we like it or not.
No I said that it was a fact that mmorpg
classes have been stripped down to shallow clones of each other in a
group setting, that is not a subjective point of view and I never met
anyone who would not prefer to be more unique then every other class in
the game, there is no point in classes at all in group settings if they
play the same that isnt subjective. Except we are not in the minority
the only people who want these shortcuts and lack of creativty are devs
who are making money.
Wrong
It is the silent minority who do want homogenous classes. Like it or not, the silent minority want primarily solo, easy games with a focus on story and getting new shinies. It is why the market is like it is: devs responded to the playerbase's needs. If the market genuinely wanted hardcore, group-based MMORPGs then that is what we'd have.
Like I've said previously, I agree with your OPINION that the current state of the genre is bad, but that is because I like hard, group-based games. But that is just my opinion.
Trying to claim that the genre is crap because you don't like it is just stupid, especially when all evidence points to the contrary. The majority of players like the genre, like the current games and like the direction it is moving.
People like you and I have simply been left behind. We are a small minority and will remain so. I suggest you man up, get over yourself and just hope that someday an MMO will be released with us in mind.
Currently Playing: WAR RoR - Spitt rr7X Black Orc | Scrotling rr6X Squig Herder | Scabrous rr4X Shaman
Just because more people enjoy solo content because of wow doesnt mean
they still are, after wow it moved even further away and now more then
ever we see complaints about it.
10-15 years ago, MMORPGs had more of a group focus and were harder. The market was small, it remained a niche hobby - fact
Since WoW, more and more MMORPGs have become more casual and solo focused. The market is now orders of magnitude bigger - fact
So, if not many people played MMORPGs during the era that you liked them, but millions more do play them now, what does that tell you?
According to you, this just means that all modern players are complete idiots undeserving of a good game and that all developers are scam-artists. Do you see how flawed your reasoning is?
The market responded to player needs - the silent majority wants and enjoys the modern era of MMORPGs which is why the market is expanding. This simple fact proves you wrong in your argument.
What are you talking about?
Allot of them are glorified chat rooms the majority do not want that
rather you agree with me or not my experience does tell me that. Just
because people can group doesnt mean there is a reason to, its far more
beneficial for people to solo these days unlike in older mmorpgs where
grouping was more rewarded exp and loot wise.
Strawman argument is fallacious and the fact you keep using it proves you don't know what you are talking about.
You listed two
mmorpgs eso and final fantasy when I said the majority of mmorpgs have
been stripped down, im glad a few games are still retaining it but it
doesnt take away from the majority.
I'm not an expert in old school MMOs, the only one I played was SWG.
However, having done some research, it looks like most old school MMOs offered the same or less character development than today's MMORPGs (I'm deliberately excluding browsers mmos / mis-classified games from this).
Oh please dont give me that
load of crap about 10 years experience, games have gone to casual over
the years as a whole, difficulty may be subjective to a point but it
does get to a point where its watered down instant gratification where
nothing is truly rewarding, there is no difficulty when you can plow
through a game without consequences of dying, if you mean some people
want easy and some want hard of course thats subjective, I never argued
that but there is nothing subjective about what is easy, if its easy it
is easy period. And ive never heard anyone disagree that mmorpgs today
are to easy.
I personally find MMORPGs to be easy, the difficulty has only ever come through working in groups.
However, from the sounds of it, you and I are part of the hardcore / semi-hardcore crowd who also have tons of experience. We're part of a very small minority of gamers who value challenge.
I suggest you go out and speak to the silent majority, it might open your eyes. I ran a guild for 6 years and recruited 100s of players in many different games. I was always shocked by how difficult people found the games. Like SW:TOR for example, it is the easiest MMO I've ever played but I met tons of players who were just crap.
Also, every single MMO I've played, including SWG, was full of forum posts asking for content to be nerfed. The majority DO want easy content, whether we like it or not.
No I said that it was a fact that mmorpg
classes have been stripped down to shallow clones of each other in a
group setting, that is not a subjective point of view and I never met
anyone who would not prefer to be more unique then every other class in
the game, there is no point in classes at all in group settings if they
play the same that isnt subjective. Except we are not in the minority
the only people who want these shortcuts and lack of creativty are devs
who are making money.
Wrong
It is the silent minority who do want homogenous classes. Like it or not, the silent minority want primarily solo, easy games with a focus on story and getting new shinies. It is why the market is like it is: devs responded to the playerbase's needs. If the market genuinely wanted hardcore, group-based MMORPGs then that is what we'd have.
Like I've said previously, I agree with your OPINION that the current state of the genre is bad, but that is because I like hard, group-based games. But that is just my opinion.
Trying to claim that the genre is crap because you don't like it is just stupid, especially when all evidence points to the contrary. The majority of players like the genre, like the current games and like the direction it is moving.
People like you and I have simply been left behind. We are a small minority and will remain so. I suggest you man up, get over yourself and just hope that someday an MMO will be released with us in mind.
If the modern era truly wanted that you would have actual proof, I said im trusting in my experiences I dont care what you think about it havent you recongnized that by now? And no I didnt say they where idiots.
Why do you think why mmorpgs like eq are still around in the first place? Why did so many free to play mmorpgs fail? Why do you think so many end up going free to play? Because they are lacking in the things people want, people cannot justify the costs of something they do not want in an mmorpg. Not to mention all the shortcuts devs take now and lack of effort they turn them into today, not to mention how most are literally just a cash grab.
Silent minority lol sure nice argument to hide behind there, something a dev would likely do to protect how much money they are making, you have no facts to back up that claim anyways, people want variety in games more and more as the years go by thats why you see rpg elements in way more games these days because the majority do want variety so im more likely right then wrong here.
I didnt say it was crap and I fairly sure your just a shill anyways I doubt you actually agree with me lets not pretend this is something other then damage control, and again you didnt and never will with these arguments, I know for a fact that what the majority want across many forums and in mmoprgs themselves ive been in many discussions and never once heard the majority say I want to spend money on casual crap.
Worse is relative. Not like they use to be for sure. People dont want grind or hard it has to be nice easy.. fun.. GOT TO HAVE that cash shop. Sure we get the post "NEVER USED THE CASH SHOP".. see I just said it.. yet most if not all have. The way they are now is the way YOU wanted it. The devs the makers made what YOU wanted. World of Warcraft was is will always be.. none every like that.. nor will be.
Worse.. no...things change.. some dont like change. They like the past and want to stay there. Spending real money in something you never get to keep.. then to justify it as ..its your money do what you want.. haha says it all. A truth ..yet not.
Worse is relative. Not like they use to be for sure. People dont want grind or hard it has to be nice easy.. fun.. GOT TO HAVE that cash shop. Sure we get the post "NEVER USED THE CASH SHOP".. see I just said it.. yet most if not all have. The way they are now is the way YOU wanted it. The devs the makers made what YOU wanted. World of Warcraft was is will always be.. none every like that.. nor will be.
Worse.. no...things change.. some dont like change. They like the past and want to stay there. Spending real money in something you never get to keep.. then to justify it as ..its your money do what you want.. haha says it all. A truth ..yet not.
Thats not really true, free to play existed long before lotro and around the time of eq and others but more in korean mmorpgs, just because people where loud and wanted free to play doesnt mean people wanted it, the only reason why the first western mmorpg which was lotro went free to play was because it lacked the what allot of slightly older mmorpgs had at the time, and not to mention it did copy wow in many ways, that is why eq2 took forever before it went f2p because it did manage to carry over allot of aspects from eq1 which people loved it was a mix of new and old, which personally im in more favor of but people assume I think people only want older aspects of mmorpgs.
Dont get me wrong lotro was a great mmorpgs but it was a themepark much like wow at the time was and was competiting against wow because it didnt offer the depth, freedom, and group mechanics of other mmorpgs.
Comments
"This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."
(before your time?)
"This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."
But then VR could also turn the industry around. In my opinion get rid of the F2P and B2P games that are also turning games into advertisements and trying to get as much as they can from players.
I'm not against them making money but what the hell give us good games and stop trying to make the whole game about some lame in game store (talking to you Zenimax).
Star Citizen – The Extinction Level Event
4/13/15 > ELE has been updated look for 16-04-13.
http://www.dereksmart.org/2016/04/star-citizen-the-ele/
Enjoy and know the truth always comes to light!
After those, we had to look forward to Asian titles such as Archeage, BDO, B&S, etc.. and Skyforge which was Russian.
Then we get news of EQN being cancelled, Landmark being a failure. Now we are awaiting kickstarter/indie projects which don't look too great either.
Before 2012, i would try out just about every major MMO that released. Now i don't even bother.
This is your subjective opinion and it is also wrong.
The facts to prove you are wrong
- More games are solo-focused
- The MMO market is expanding, therefore more people are enjoying solo content
- Most developers at some point or another release stats on participation in group content. Every single one of them has shown that 70-80% of players never group up.
This is your subjective opinion combined with straw man argument.MMOs, even when mostly solo, are not "glorified chat rooms". All MMOs offer group content, trading etc. Are they as group focused as they used to be? no, but there are a looooong way from just being chat rooms.
This is your subjective opinion, and it's correctness varies game to game.
2 recent AAA MMORPGs, Elder Scrolls Online and Final Fantasy 14, both offer absolutely massive character development in terms of skills, specs, specialisation etc.
Like others have said, most classes these days offer much more customisation than older games through specs, skill trees, traits, gear sets etc.
The only real difference is that these days it only takes a month or so to "complete" the character development, compared to a longer time period for older grindy games.
This is your subjective opinion.
TESO and FFXIV both offer massive amounts of customisation. Most games with classes offer multiple trees with numerous possibilities, so whilst the skills might stay the same the playstyle changes dramatically.
All you can really do is compare game-to-game, some of the old ones are better, some are worse.
Difficulty is subjective.
For starters, you've got 10 more years experience under your belt than when you used to play the old school MMOs, so naturally everything is going to feel easier. Secondly, you're older and (hopefully) wiser, so you can use your extra life experience to help understand and overcome in game challenges.
As an example: I played SWG at release and found it hard. My first month was really difficult, constantly getting killed by stuff. However, I've been back onto the emulator and found it incredibly easy. This is because I now understand all the systems, character development, gear etc.
Liking / disliking leveling speeds is subjective. I personally prefer short leveling time and I enjoy hitting cap in under a month as it means less time wasted on boring content and more time spent doing what I enjoy.
Not enough group classes - again, this is your subjective opinion. Whilst I agree with you and wish for more group orientated games, we are in the minority. The objective facts are that most players prefer solo content (evidence presented by virtually every developer, combined with increased popularity of solo-centric mmos compared to group mmos).
So, there you go. Out of the "facts" you presented, only 1 was actually a fact and I've refuted the rest of your opinions, even though I agree with your desires. The market disagrees with us, the developers disagree with us, i.e. the facts disagree with us.
What are you talking about? Allot of them are glorified chat rooms the majority do not want that rather you agree with me or not my experience does tell me that. Just because people can group doesnt mean there is a reason to, its far more beneficial for people to solo these days unlike in older mmorpgs where grouping was more rewarded exp and loot wise.
You listed two mmorpgs eso and final fantasy when I said the majority of mmorpgs have been stripped down, im glad a few games are still retaining it but it doesnt take away from the majority.
Oh please dont give me that load of crap about 10 years experience, games have gone to casual over the years as a whole, difficulty may be subjective to a point but it does get to a point where its watered down instant gratification where nothing is truly rewarding, there is no difficulty when you can plow through a game without consequences of dying, if you mean some people want easy and some want hard of course thats subjective, I never argued that but there is nothing subjective about what is easy, if its easy it is easy period. And ive never heard anyone disagree that mmorpgs today are to easy.
No I said that it was a fact that mmorpg classes have been stripped down to shallow clones of each other in a group setting, that is not a subjective point of view and I never met anyone who would not prefer to be more unique then every other class in the game, there is no point in classes at all in group settings if they play the same that isnt subjective. Except we are not in the minority the only people who want these shortcuts and lack of creativty are devs who are making money.
Nope you didnt actually but nice try.
"Can we just agree that the state of mmorpgs have gotten worse in 2016 so far?"
-No,it just keep remain on same level (according my personal experience at least for like 6 years already). Zero innovation
-I didnt get it ,why did you stopped play Neverwinter?
"...and people need to learn to agree on this..."
-Are you blaming players?
-People that make games dont play even their own games.Publisher cares only about money.Most of new games have good sales only because of PR.
(Just look on Tree of Savior.....(sigh))
"...single player rpgs have ruined mmorpgs for me lol."
-mmorpgs have ruined single player rpgs for me lol.
There are games I enjoy and I think that the genre has changed and moved on and left you the OP behind but I will not agree that the state of the genre is worse it has changed and evolved and many of the older players have not liked the changes. I have been playing since 1999 and I look at the genre today and I would not agree that it is in a worse off position at all. I may not like some of the changes and indeed I dislike action combat but that is my own problem and it does not mean the genre has gone to the dogs.
The problem with many people is that they assume everyone else is having the same issues they have and want to make their opinion the popular one. Merely insisting you're right does not make it so.
Baffling.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
Since WoW, more and more MMORPGs have become more casual and solo focused. The market is now orders of magnitude bigger - fact
So, if not many people played MMORPGs during the era that you liked them, but millions more do play them now, what does that tell you?
According to you, this just means that all modern players are complete idiots undeserving of a good game and that all developers are scam-artists. Do you see how flawed your reasoning is?
The market responded to player needs - the silent majority wants and enjoys the modern era of MMORPGs which is why the market is expanding. This simple fact proves you wrong in your argument.
Strawman argument is fallacious and the fact you keep using it proves you don't know what you are talking about.
I'm not an expert in old school MMOs, the only one I played was SWG.
However, having done some research, it looks like most old school MMOs offered the same or less character development than today's MMORPGs (I'm deliberately excluding browsers mmos / mis-classified games from this).
I personally find MMORPGs to be easy, the difficulty has only ever come through working in groups.
However, from the sounds of it, you and I are part of the hardcore / semi-hardcore crowd who also have tons of experience. We're part of a very small minority of gamers who value challenge.
I suggest you go out and speak to the silent majority, it might open your eyes. I ran a guild for 6 years and recruited 100s of players in many different games. I was always shocked by how difficult people found the games. Like SW:TOR for example, it is the easiest MMO I've ever played but I met tons of players who were just crap.
Also, every single MMO I've played, including SWG, was full of forum posts asking for content to be nerfed. The majority DO want easy content, whether we like it or not.
Wrong
It is the silent minority who do want homogenous classes. Like it or not, the silent minority want primarily solo, easy games with a focus on story and getting new shinies. It is why the market is like it is: devs responded to the playerbase's needs. If the market genuinely wanted hardcore, group-based MMORPGs then that is what we'd have.
Lol.
Like I've said previously, I agree with your OPINION that the current state of the genre is bad, but that is because I like hard, group-based games. But that is just my opinion.
Trying to claim that the genre is crap because you don't like it is just stupid, especially when all evidence points to the contrary. The majority of players like the genre, like the current games and like the direction it is moving.
People like you and I have simply been left behind. We are a small minority and will remain so. I suggest you man up, get over yourself and just hope that someday an MMO will be released with us in mind.
Why do you think why mmorpgs like eq are still around in the first place? Why did so many free to play mmorpgs fail? Why do you think so many end up going free to play? Because they are lacking in the things people want, people cannot justify the costs of something they do not want in an mmorpg. Not to mention all the shortcuts devs take now and lack of effort they turn them into today, not to mention how most are literally just a cash grab.
Silent minority lol sure nice argument to hide behind there, something a dev would likely do to protect how much money they are making, you have no facts to back up that claim anyways, people want variety in games more and more as the years go by thats why you see rpg elements in way more games these days because the majority do want variety so im more likely right then wrong here.
I didnt say it was crap and I fairly sure your just a shill anyways I doubt you actually agree with me lets not pretend this is something other then damage control, and again you didnt and never will with these arguments, I know for a fact that what the majority want across many forums and in mmoprgs themselves ive been in many discussions and never once heard the majority say I want to spend money on casual crap.
Worse.. no...things change.. some dont like change. They like the past and want to stay there. Spending real money in something you never get to keep.. then to justify it as ..its your money do what you want.. haha says it all. A truth ..yet not.
Dont get me wrong lotro was a great mmorpgs but it was a themepark much like wow at the time was and was competiting against wow because it didnt offer the depth, freedom, and group mechanics of other mmorpgs.
Nor do, I suggest, your opinions relate specifically to 2016.
Now if your staement had been "mmorpgs have gotten worse in the last 10 years or whatever" - but that is not what you suggested.
Bottomline - in my opinion - things have not gotten any worse in 2016 and, again imo, things have improved.
And if the responses in this thread are representative of the mythical majority - the majority does not agree with you either.