Vanilla was a masterpiece for a game. TBC was also good but was implemented poorly. It didn't actually expand anything, it worked as a stand alone game on top of old WoW, just like WotLK.
And to destroy any assumption like "I guess most started WoW with WotLK", I'm playing WoW since release in Nov. 2004.
What makes it the best in your mind?
The setting. The Villain. The story you experience from the second you set foot in Northrend until the final defeat of Arthas. Northrend itself, and the different populations and lore. Ulduar, best raid of the game to me. It also had, in my opinion, the best system to select easy/hard modes on bosses, in the same instance. Mimiron's red button... Yoggy with 0, 1, 2, 3 or 4 helpers... etc... Democratization of raiding, with 10 and 25 man modes and easier/harder (normal/epic) modes. Classes and character development still had depth, with the possibility of hybrids. PvP was at its best, too. Death Knights. Some of the best looking armor and weapons of the game. Some of the best looking mounts of the game, too.
Ok now what where the bad parts of WOTLK in your mind?
I enjoyed Wrath the most as an expansion. But for me personally TBC was a real let down. It forever took the game direction away from being a pure MMORPG.
Not sure I follow you?
It took the game from an RPG to a more Competitive Focus and forever changed the design philosophy.
Resilience and Arena's took the game into an E-sport direction, pretty much drive the stake deeper into the heart of OWPvP.
I also personally loved that both the Horde and Alliance had a class that the other didn't possess. It made the two sides distinct from one another.
I really like the idea of *World* of *War* craft instead it became "World of Arena and Battleground Craft"
TBC also introduced flying mounts which I believe ended up really hurting the game.
It wasn't all bad, it also brought some good things into the game. But the direction it headed was not the direction I personally wished it would have went.
I enjoyed Wrath the most as an expansion. But for me personally TBC was a real let down. It forever took the game direction away from being a pure MMORPG.
Not sure I follow you?
It took the game from an RPG to a more Competitive Focus and forever changed the design philosophy.
Resilience and Arena's took the game into an E-sport direction, pretty much drive the stake deeper into the heart of OWPvP.
I also personally loved that both the Horde and Alliance had a class that the other didn't possess. It made the two sides distinct from one another.
I really like the idea of *World* of *War* craft instead it became "World of Arena and Battleground Craft"
TBC also introduced flying mounts which I believe ended up really hurting the game.
It wasn't all bad, it also brought some good things into the game. But the direction it headed was not the direction I personally wished it would have went.
Thats fair enough. I disagree with the change in design philosophy from a RPG to competitive focused because that was in vanilla where guilds wanted to be world first for Naxx 1.0.
As for the flying mounts, yea I think they did hurt the game. However it was not as bad in TBC because it took you so long to get a mount after max level because it was hard to make gold that by the time you didnt do much in the world with that character anyway outside of gathering. I always flew to instances after I got my flying mount with made it easier to get there, I didnt do much questing after max level until the dailies. I will agree there were less people on the ground.
And to destroy any assumption like "I guess most started WoW with WotLK", I'm playing WoW since release in Nov. 2004.
If that's the case I don't understand how you can saw WotLK is the best of the expansion when that's the expansion where most of the developmental direction issues came to the fore. That's the expansion that gave us zerggy dungeons, the LFG tool, phasing, and the over-simplification of classes (like when they removed downranking), and leveling so fast it was silly. I don't think I'd even reached the third zone before I hit 80.
Sure, the dungeons were lore heavy and gave us plenty of story, and the raids were pretty nifty as well, but that doesn't even begin to make up for the above.
I enjoyed Wrath the most as an expansion. But for me personally TBC was a real let down. It forever took the game direction away from being a pure MMORPG.
Not sure I follow you?
It took the game from an RPG to a more Competitive Focus and forever changed the design philosophy.
Resilience and Arena's took the game into an E-sport direction, pretty much drive the stake deeper into the heart of OWPvP.
I also personally loved that both the Horde and Alliance had a class that the other didn't possess. It made the two sides distinct from one another.
I really like the idea of *World* of *War* craft instead it became "World of Arena and Battleground Craft"
TBC also introduced flying mounts which I believe ended up really hurting the game.
It wasn't all bad, it also brought some good things into the game. But the direction it headed was not the direction I personally wished it would have went.
Thats fair enough. I disagree with the change in design philosophy from a RPG to competitive focused because that was in vanilla where guilds wanted to be world first for Naxx 1.0.
I agree.
My meaning wasn't that it completely changed the philosophy but steered it into more of a hybrid.
- Zergy dungeons: the heroic versions weren't that zergy for fresh characters, but of course, they were for a fully raid geared one. In TBC and Vanilla, we were facerolling dungeons with our raid decked characters too. - LFG tool: yeah, because it was so fun to spam chat for ages before you got a group. The bad part came LATER with cross server. The LFG tools as in WotLK was an excellent addition. - Phasing: a fantastic tool for story telling, a great addition to the game. - Over simplification of classes only came in Cataclysm. You may have short memory. Downranking was sadly an abused feature that had to be removed. A shame healers had to use DIFFERENT spells instead of spamming the same spell in various ranks. Wait, that would actually increase complexity, right? Not to mention all good (raid) healers used addons to calculate the downranking for them, making it pure button mashing. - Leveling wasn't that fast, definitely not compared to TBC anyway. And in Vanilla, well... I started my Druid (a hard to level class back then) at release end November 2004, and in January 2005 I was already farming the UBRS raid to get ready for MC and Onyxia. Leveling never was hard and long in WoW. And you definitely didn't reach 80 before the third zone in WotLK, even if you played very casually with always the 200% bonus active.
Sorry I have to disagree with you here.
First - Zergy Dungeons happened from the very minute you stepped into WOTLK. I was Zerging dungeons from my first and never stopped because they were designed that way. Not once did a person have to use CC in them. This was a Terrible design and make Dungeons nothing more than a 20 minute pop online and run event. Saying that they were Zergy if you had top end raid gear in TBC or Vanilla? Well I had friends in the top guild on my server. I can tell you for their A raid team yes instances were zerg fest, they were T3 or T6 geared. Which only 1% of the entire population was vs everyone in WOTLK was Zerging.
Second - LFD is exactly what killed MMORPGs. It made it so people no longer maintained friends list and made the WOW community 100 times more toxic. It again made running Dungeons a 20 minute affair and people got bored more often. Did WOW need a LFG tool. Yep. Did it Need LFD? Fuck no. Today's LFG tool is fine. Today's FFXIV Party Finder is fine. Nothing more was needed with the LFG tool
No Oversimplification started in WOTLK. I had 2 tanks, my Pali and my Warrior. Both tanked exactly the same. Run in hit your AOE, keep aggro. My Holy Priest and Shaman played exactly the same as well. Throw out a lot of AOE heals as fast as you can. Min Max my healing and I was good.
While I agree on the content being good. WOTLK had 3 things that really stuck a dagger into WOW and often times people believe was good but it only because the fondness of easy content that WOTLK was. WOTLK was the time where people in my own guild started to tell me just to Queue up for instances because its better than waiting for people yet MMORPGs are built on the social interactions with people. There is nothing social about clicking a button getting into a dungeon, AOEing everything down then leaving without saying 1 dam word. This is EXACTLY why MMORPGs suck today. Too much reliance on the game doing it for you.
I enjoyed Wrath the most as an expansion. But for me personally TBC was a real let down. It forever took the game direction away from being a pure MMORPG.
Not sure I follow you?
It took the game from an RPG to a more Competitive Focus and forever changed the design philosophy.
Resilience and Arena's took the game into an E-sport direction, pretty much drive the stake deeper into the heart of OWPvP.
I also personally loved that both the Horde and Alliance had a class that the other didn't possess. It made the two sides distinct from one another.
I really like the idea of *World* of *War* craft instead it became "World of Arena and Battleground Craft"
TBC also introduced flying mounts which I believe ended up really hurting the game.
It wasn't all bad, it also brought some good things into the game. But the direction it headed was not the direction I personally wished it would have went.
Thats fair enough. I disagree with the change in design philosophy from a RPG to competitive focused because that was in vanilla where guilds wanted to be world first for Naxx 1.0.
I agree.
My meaning wasn't that it completely changed the philosophy but steered it into more of a hybrid.
I do think it started to change. I think WOTLK did way more damage. AOE Fest instances and LFD these are more community changing events than what TBC did.
I know. I am a member of the gaming press. I have many friends on many sites we share stories and bylines. As well as provide news stories to numerous sites including this one. Like the Wildstar news today.
I wondered why you started so many new threads every day, in all categories, who's paying you to do so? (or is this your way to get this site to start doing it?)
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I know. I am a member of the gaming press. I have many friends on many sites we share stories and bylines. As well as provide news stories to numerous sites including this one. Like the Wildstar news today.
I wondered why you started so many new threads every day, in all categories, who's paying you to do so? (or is this your way to get this site to start doing it?)
No I am not looking to be hired by MMORPG.com I used to run a couple of gaming sites and posting and sharing is a hobby of mine. I enjoy it. I have a site coming online soon so many of my stories will end up there instead. Not for the money, I have a day job, I just enjoy creating threads and posting news that get people talking about the things I find interesting.
Blueturtle13 is a great credit to this site and we should appreciate all the work blue's doing to keep us informed..
I do think it started to change. I think WOTLK did way more damage. AOE Fest instances and LFD these are more community changing events than what TBC did.
I think WOTLK make the game way better. Finally you have LFD and don't have to depend on a community to have fun.
I enjoyed Wrath the most as an expansion. But for me personally TBC was a real let down. It forever took the game direction away from being a pure MMORPG.
Not sure I follow you?
It took the game from an RPG to a more Competitive Focus and forever changed the design philosophy.
Resilience and Arena's took the game into an E-sport direction, pretty much drive the stake deeper into the heart of OWPvP.
I also personally loved that both the Horde and Alliance had a class that the other didn't possess. It made the two sides distinct from one another.
I really like the idea of *World* of *War* craft instead it became "World of Arena and Battleground Craft"
TBC also introduced flying mounts which I believe ended up really hurting the game.
It wasn't all bad, it also brought some good things into the game. But the direction it headed was not the direction I personally wished it would have went.
Thats fair enough. I disagree with the change in design philosophy from a RPG to competitive focused because that was in vanilla where guilds wanted to be world first for Naxx 1.0.
I agree.
My meaning wasn't that it completely changed the philosophy but steered it into more of a hybrid.
I do think it started to change. I think WOTLK did way more damage. AOE Fest instances and LFD these are more community changing events than what TBC did.
Hard to argue with you
I remember finally deciding to try a Pally up to max lvl. I rolled a Blood Elf and after running RazorFen Kraul, I quit leveling the character in disgust. That was the last Alt I ever tried to level an alt in WoW except for trying to level one in Cata and quickly coming to the same conclusion.
How I wish they would have left well enough alone and simply added a skip to endgame button.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
I do think it started to change. I think WOTLK did way more damage. AOE Fest instances and LFD these are more community changing events than what TBC did.
Hard to argue with you
I remember finally deciding to try a Pally up to max lvl. I rolled a Blood Elf and after running RazorFen Kraul, I quit leveling the character in disgust. That was the last Alt I ever tried to level an alt in WoW except for trying to level one in Cata and quickly coming to the same conclusion.
How I wish they would have left well enough alone and simply added a skip to endgame button.
You know the Pally is the only class I ever played in WOW. (Protection)
You must have tried other classes?
The only ones I played to max were #1 Warrior, #2 Shaman and #3 was a Priest.
I usually play sword and board but Pallies I found very boring in early Vanilla
If I remember right MOP release was around the time of china's release for WOW. That would have had a lot to do with it, appealing to eastern customer base with theme.
Hands down Burning Crusade was the best IMO. It kept all the good things from vanilla and added to them. Was the first time you had a Z-axis included with flight. Allowed us to see the homeland of the Orcs and the destruction they caused to it. Even trash mobs would wipe people in basic instances in BC and vanilla if you didn't do trapping, sapping, etc...made them more interesting to run with different classes.
Wrath came in a close second but it started the downfall of WOW IMO. Before this xpac most of the classes remaining intact and you had a specific role to fill. It wasn't an everybody go in and AOE everything down. This was when the instance finder really started the whole casual no one talk to anyone runs like you have today, which are horrible.
I did love the story of Wrath but BC took it home for me.
TBC. Some of best times post vanilla i had in WoW, really fun raids with plenty of interesting (if sometimes frustrating mechanics), plus ZA mount runs were great idea. WotlK is a close second but it was a bit of hit and miss in terms of pve content. Also, Shadowpriest mana battery role in TBC was really fun way to play for me since i enjoy quasi-supports, sadly in later expansions they got reduced to just striaght up boring DPS.
Although the new continent (Outlands) was probably the least appealing to me, the gameplay in TBC was excellent; classes were clearly distinguished in their roles and many roles that were non viable in vanilla WoW were finally fine tuned and actually viable. The dungeons (heroic) were brutal and felt rewarding. And the game had not been toned down and made "easy mode". TBC, in my view, is how vanilla WoW should have been after all the patches and fixes.
Comments
Resilience and Arena's took the game into an E-sport direction, pretty much drive the stake deeper into the heart of OWPvP.
I also personally loved that both the Horde and Alliance had a class that the other didn't possess. It made the two sides distinct from one another.
I really like the idea of *World* of *War* craft instead it became "World of Arena and Battleground Craft"
TBC also introduced flying mounts which I believe ended up really hurting the game.
It wasn't all bad, it also brought some good things into the game. But the direction it headed was not the direction I personally wished it would have went.
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
As for the flying mounts, yea I think they did hurt the game. However it was not as bad in TBC because it took you so long to get a mount after max level because it was hard to make gold that by the time you didnt do much in the world with that character anyway outside of gathering. I always flew to instances after I got my flying mount with made it easier to get there, I didnt do much questing after max level until the dailies. I will agree there were less people on the ground.
If that's the case I don't understand how you can saw WotLK is the best of the expansion when that's the expansion where most of the developmental direction issues came to the fore. That's the expansion that gave us zerggy dungeons, the LFG tool, phasing, and the over-simplification of classes (like when they removed downranking), and leveling so fast it was silly. I don't think I'd even reached the third zone before I hit 80.
Sure, the dungeons were lore heavy and gave us plenty of story, and the raids were pretty nifty as well, but that doesn't even begin to make up for the above.
My meaning wasn't that it completely changed the philosophy but steered it into more of a hybrid.
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
First - Zergy Dungeons happened from the very minute you stepped into WOTLK. I was Zerging dungeons from my first and never stopped because they were designed that way. Not once did a person have to use CC in them. This was a Terrible design and make Dungeons nothing more than a 20 minute pop online and run event. Saying that they were Zergy if you had top end raid gear in TBC or Vanilla? Well I had friends in the top guild on my server. I can tell you for their A raid team yes instances were zerg fest, they were T3 or T6 geared. Which only 1% of the entire population was vs everyone in WOTLK was Zerging.
Second - LFD is exactly what killed MMORPGs. It made it so people no longer maintained friends list and made the WOW community 100 times more toxic. It again made running Dungeons a 20 minute affair and people got bored more often. Did WOW need a LFG tool. Yep. Did it Need LFD? Fuck no. Today's LFG tool is fine. Today's FFXIV Party Finder is fine. Nothing more was needed with the LFG tool
No Oversimplification started in WOTLK. I had 2 tanks, my Pali and my Warrior. Both tanked exactly the same. Run in hit your AOE, keep aggro. My Holy Priest and Shaman played exactly the same as well. Throw out a lot of AOE heals as fast as you can. Min Max my healing and I was good.
While I agree on the content being good. WOTLK had 3 things that really stuck a dagger into WOW and often times people believe was good but it only because the fondness of easy content that WOTLK was. WOTLK was the time where people in my own guild started to tell me just to Queue up for instances because its better than waiting for people yet MMORPGs are built on the social interactions with people. There is nothing social about clicking a button getting into a dungeon, AOEing everything down then leaving without saying 1 dam word. This is EXACTLY why MMORPGs suck today. Too much reliance on the game doing it for you.
I do think it started to change. I think WOTLK did way more damage. AOE Fest instances and LFD these are more community changing events than what TBC did.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Should have left it alone so my guild could finish the content through the 4 horsemen as a 40 man raid. (we got nipped in the middle of AQ40)
I did return for Cata but the accelerated leveling curve and focus on dungeon finders over game world interaction was a total turn off.
So I'll go with Vanilla right before BCs launch.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
I remember finally deciding to try a Pally up to max lvl. I rolled a Blood Elf and after running RazorFen Kraul, I quit leveling the character in disgust. That was the last Alt I ever tried to level an alt in WoW except for trying to level one in Cata and quickly coming to the same conclusion.
How I wish they would have left well enough alone and simply added a skip to endgame button.
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
The only ones I played to max were #1 Warrior, #2 Shaman and #3 was a Priest.
I usually play sword and board but Pallies I found very boring in early Vanilla
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
Haven't entered a single Panda Land dungeon or raid to this day. Were they any good?
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
Wrath came in a close second but it started the downfall of WOW IMO. Before this xpac most of the classes remaining intact and you had a specific role to fill. It wasn't an everybody go in and AOE everything down. This was when the instance finder really started the whole casual no one talk to anyone runs like you have today, which are horrible.
I did love the story of Wrath but BC took it home for me.