Like Whilan said - griefing can happen through pve just as much as it happens through pvp. If you think you will be "safe" from griefers because you chose a "pve" server, you're in for a disappointment.
The reason CoE will never split into a pve/pvp server game (besides diluting and stretching its own playerbase) is because one of the hallmarks of the game is consequence. Real consequence.
Actions in games need to be tied to outcomes that players really care about. When you neuter an open world sandbox and take away repercussions for one's actions, no one cares what anyone is doing and griefing can go unchecked, unchallenged.
By losing game time through poor choices, you force a players hand -- they either need to play a lot more carefully in doing what they're doing, or they need to find safer areas and safer hobbies.
edit; some might say this punishes PVP. I say it punishes reckless pvp. Survival of the fittest -- thoughtless pkers will die out and be punished frequently and severely. Careful and cautious pvpers won't.
Like Whilan said - griefing can happen through pve just as much as it happens through pvp. If you think you will be "safe" from griefers because you chose a "pve" server, you're in for a disappointment.
The reason CoE will never split into a pve/pvp server game (besides diluting and stretching its own playerbase) is because one of the hallmarks of the game is consequence. Real consequence.
Actions in games need to be tied to outcomes that players really care about. When you neuter an open world sandbox and take away repercussions for one's actions, no one cares what anyone is doing and griefing can go unchecked, unchallenged.
By losing game time through poor choices, you force a players hand -- they either need to play a lot more carefully in doing what they're doing, or they need to find safer areas and safer hobbies.
I That happens only in games with bad design. I have never heard of 1 time where someone was griefed in GW2 pve. Or Rift, ESO, SWTOR..... Give some examples of griefing in any of those games from the pve side.
Like Whilan said - griefing can happen through pve just as much as it happens through pvp. If you think you will be "safe" from griefers because you chose a "pve" server, you're in for a disappointment.
The reason CoE will never split into a pve/pvp server game (besides diluting and stretching its own playerbase) is because one of the hallmarks of the game is consequence. Real consequence.
Actions in games need to be tied to outcomes that players really care about. When you neuter an open world sandbox and take away repercussions for one's actions, no one cares what anyone is doing and griefing can go unchecked, unchallenged.
By losing game time through poor choices, you force a players hand -- they either need to play a lot more carefully in doing what they're doing, or they need to find safer areas and safer hobbies.
I That happens only in games with bad design. I have never heard of 1 time where someone was griefed in GW2 pve. Or Rift, ESO, SWTOR..... Give some examples of griefing in any of those games from the pve side.
Like Whilan said - griefing can happen through pve just as much as it happens through pvp. If you think you will be "safe" from griefers because you chose a "pve" server, you're in for a disappointment.
The reason CoE will never split into a pve/pvp server game (besides diluting and stretching its own playerbase) is because one of the hallmarks of the game is consequence. Real consequence.
Actions in games need to be tied to outcomes that players really care about. When you neuter an open world sandbox and take away repercussions for one's actions, no one cares what anyone is doing and griefing can go unchecked, unchallenged.
By losing game time through poor choices, you force a players hand -- they either need to play a lot more carefully in doing what they're doing, or they need to find safer areas and safer hobbies.
I That happens only in games with bad design. I have never heard of 1 time where someone was griefed in GW2 pve. Or Rift, ESO, SWTOR..... Give some examples of griefing in any of those games from the pve side.
And all it took was a simple google search for each one. I've never even played the first three.
I played each of those games for over 1k hours except for SWTOR and never saw that griefing. I'm not saying it doesn't exist but you were acting like there are literally hundreds of ways to grief and yes this is true in the poorly designed mmo's. But the good ones it is rare. I was not implying that griefing is impossible but I was rebuting your claim that it was easy to do. However griefing in pvp mmo's is rampant and normal.
This kills COE right there, lets look at Real Life since we are doing a real life system if I murdered a person IRL and no one was around to see it, and lets assume no one found the body or I got rid of it (How would there be any proof of the murder?)
Like you are dead, unless you believe in the spiritual world you are not coming back from there to tell the police who murdered you or draw a picture and so on so why should COE be like this?
A Good reason I am glad I am not backing COE as a development for a game it has already been ruined for me before launch and in a very stupid way, like the system would be fine if you get rid of aging and perm-death, but if you are going this realistic then the game simply has to remain realistic...
The error most open world pvp mmos have made is by having too many restrictions on pvp and self-policing. Its the odd and awkward game mechanics that define the parameters of pvp in strict scenarios, leaving room for abuse and exploitation. This is where griefing often occurs.
Having safe zones is one of the biggest contributors. I remember when i played Blade and Soul i'd see some quest hubs guarded by packs of vets, waiting for people to leave so they could pick them off. Even if some other group pushed them out, the initial griefers lost nothing and could always come back another time.
In CoE, griefers have everything to lose. There won't be a safe zone banks storing all your money and gear safely. If you fuck up and piss off a city state with a standing army, and they find out where you're based out of, its a war. If you lose it, you lose everything you have. You won't be permadead, but you'll have nothing with which to grief or pk anyone.
I can understand why companies want to stop griefing. But this looks like they are stopping pvp.
This won't stop PvP at all. In old school Ultima Online you took a pretty hefty stat penalty for becoming a murderer, aka "going red". This stopped absolutely no one from doing it.
True. However, in UO you could just macro unattended as a ghost (you only lost stats when resurrected) every night for 3 months and turn blue without ever losing any stats. This doesn't seem to offer the same option.
Like Whilan said - griefing can happen through pve just as much as it happens through pvp. If you think you will be "safe" from griefers because you chose a "pve" server, you're in for a disappointment.
The reason CoE will never split into a pve/pvp server game (besides diluting and stretching its own playerbase) is because one of the hallmarks of the game is consequence. Real consequence.
Actions in games need to be tied to outcomes that players really care about. When you neuter an open world sandbox and take away repercussions for one's actions, no one cares what anyone is doing and griefing can go unchecked, unchallenged.
By losing game time through poor choices, you force a players hand -- they either need to play a lot more carefully in doing what they're doing, or they need to find safer areas and safer hobbies.
I That happens only in games with bad design. I have never heard of 1 time where someone was griefed in GW2 pve. Or Rift, ESO, SWTOR..... Give some examples of griefing in any of those games from the pve side.
And all it took was a simple google search for each one. I've never even played the first three.
I played each of those games for over 1k hours except for SWTOR and never saw that griefing. I'm not saying it doesn't exist but you were acting like there are literally hundreds of ways to grief and yes this is true in the poorly designed mmo's. But the good ones it is rare. I was not implying that griefing is impossible but I was rebuting your claim that it was easy to do. However griefing in pvp mmo's is rampant and normal.
Wow you had 40 days played in your games and that made you and expert?
I had 100-150 days played per character on 3 characters on wow and I saw PVE griefing. All it took was one hit on a mob you was going to attack to "tag" it then when you attack you get the ago sp you need to kill it. Then they get the loot
Like Whilan said - griefing can happen through pve just as much as it happens through pvp. If you think you will be "safe" from griefers because you chose a "pve" server, you're in for a disappointment.
The reason CoE will never split into a pve/pvp server game (besides diluting and stretching its own playerbase) is because one of the hallmarks of the game is consequence. Real consequence.
Actions in games need to be tied to outcomes that players really care about. When you neuter an open world sandbox and take away repercussions for one's actions, no one cares what anyone is doing and griefing can go unchecked, unchallenged.
By losing game time through poor choices, you force a players hand -- they either need to play a lot more carefully in doing what they're doing, or they need to find safer areas and safer hobbies.
I That happens only in games with bad design. I have never heard of 1 time where someone was griefed in GW2 pve. Or Rift, ESO, SWTOR..... Give some examples of griefing in any of those games from the pve side.
And all it took was a simple google search for each one. I've never even played the first three.
I played each of those games for over 1k hours except for SWTOR and never saw that griefing. I'm not saying it doesn't exist but you were acting like there are literally hundreds of ways to grief and yes this is true in the poorly designed mmo's. But the good ones it is rare. I was not implying that griefing is impossible but I was rebuting your claim that it was easy to do. However griefing in pvp mmo's is rampant and normal.
Wow you had 40 days played in your games and that made you and expert?
I had 100-150 days played per character on 3 characters on wow and I saw PVE griefing. All it took was one hit on a mob you was going to attack to "tag" it then when you attack you get the ago sp you need to kill it. Then they get the loot
Thats because WOW is a trolls paradise. Always has been and one of the main reasons I refuse to play it. You can't even do a dungeon without someone rolling on the wrong loot. Like I said, poorly designed pve games have tons of griefing exploits.
You know the is no point in discussing this with yourself, slapshot or all the other haters because you all keep repeating yourselves and claiming you are right and everyone else is wrong.
It's actually led me to be blinded and come across as someone who is 100% a fan boy. I'm looking forward to the game and I am supporting it because I want to play. Do I have doubts at times yes but it's not going to stop me hoping.
Why don't all the hating "experts" just leave the CoE forum for those that actually are interested in the gsme and don't want to see negativity.
This kills COE right there, lets look at Real Life since we are doing a real life system if I murdered a person IRL and no one was around to see it, and lets assume no one found the body or I got rid of it (How would there be any proof of the murder?)
Like you are dead, unless you believe in the spiritual world you are not coming back from there to tell the police who murdered you or draw a picture and so on so why should COE be like this?
A Good reason I am glad I am not backing COE as a development for a game it has already been ruined for me before launch and in a very stupid way, like the system would be fine if you get rid of aging and perm-death, but if you are going this realistic then the game simply has to remain realistic...
Lucky for us GAMES are NOT Real Life. If you are so intent on not playing this due to those reasons alone, why are you playing games at all? Real life is not a Fantasy, Games are. Stop comparing the two.
Back to the Topic....I see many Wanna-Be Griefers here whining....err I meant "Trying to justify their arguments", because they will NOT get their way in CoE.
PvP is often boring because often it's fight other players, die, resurrect and run back to fight that same players who resurrected too. PvE is often boring because often it's fight mobs, die, resurrect and run back to fight that same mobs who respawned. RvR is often boring because often it's zerg to capture a fortress, die, resurrect and run back to the zerg to capture the same fortress again.
In CoE everything will be player driven in stead of scripted. In populated areas you will be safe. To get resources you will need to go to less populated areas. In stead of boss mobs, you risk encountering a player who kills and loots you. When a lot of players go to one area the resource will be gone soon and won't respawn. So you will have to go to more remote locations to get resources. When playing this game you will never know what you will encounter. Even mobs don't respawn at fixed locations.
PKers take a risk too. I they could kill without possible repercussions then everyone would kill everyone else all the time.
The devs of this game want to make a game where the more you risk the more you can gain. They don't want to make a free for all kill game. They want a spark of life to last 10-14 months for the average player. We don't know how everything will work yet. For that we will have to wait for launch. If griefing is a problem in this game, no doubt the devs will somehow increase the risk for killing someone. If killing other players becomes rare, no doubt the devs will somehow decrease the risk for killing someone. If a players use up their spark of life sooner than planed, no doubt the devs will decrease the amount of life taken by a coup de grace.
I didn't read it wrong. You are referring to "Aging", not PvP. I was talking about Griefers and their penalties vs your Normal Day to Day actions. You do not also automatically get 10 months minimum. If you die 15 times in game you lose 1 Real Life month from your spark. Think about that aspect.
So here is how I read that. Guild A gets pissy at Guild B and starts repeatedly griefing the leader of Guild B. Within a couple of weeks the Guild Leader of B has had to spend 30-60 dollars on sparks. While the community of Guild A probably didnt have to spend any since it was a shard pool of griefers.
sounds fun..as a avid pvper i cant wait to get my poster hung up in town =D
You wont be able to see it because the guards will attack on sight. Ok if you KO someone you can grab a few items. If you kill them then you can take everything. I'm glad to see a company try something different. I just hope they can forsee a lot of the problems so it can be truly successful.
sounds fun..as a avid pvper i cant wait to get my poster hung up in town =D
You wont be able to see it because the guards will attack on sight. Ok if you KO someone you can grab a few items. If you kill them then you can take everything. I'm glad to see a company try something different. I just hope they can forsee a lot of the problems so it can be truly successful.
a bunch of 'avid pvp'ers' however, could hire themselves out as problem removers, for profit, life is relatively cheap, so buying someones permadeath, yeah, that could absolutely happen, in fact, i would be very surprised if pvp orientated guilds didn't advertise their services in that regard. Also, i would be very surprised if a 'king' actually lived out their lifespan, i suspect that the position of king will probably be a very fluid one.
I don't think you can really compare griefing in games that put PvP in Zones and open world PvP games.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
I don't think you can really compare griefing in games that put PvP in Zones and open world PvP games.
True, permadeathing another player through multiple kill cycles is a legitimate game mechanic, it would not after all be in the game if it wasn't meant to happen. Its not griefing, its just using game mechanics in the way they were intended, otherwise, why would dying reduce your characters lifespan at an accelerated rate, as someone earlier mentioned, a king only has to die 5 times before they are permadeathed, why have that in a game unless a kings actions did not have a greater consequence, and a bad king, or at least, one that isn't liked very much, is likely to have more, and perhaps more determined, enemies. So how many times do you have to kill a guild leader before he/she is gone for good, 10, 20, 30 times maybe ?
I would like to fast forward time and be here to read the threads 2-3 months after this game is launched just to read about the creative ways the players find to grief others. Ways the game developers never imagined. Trust humans to come up with ways to make other humans miserable.
Sad, but true. But this is a case where the 3 month pre-population phase might come in handy. SS could make changes and adjustments based on what the poineers "discover" during that time.
Sad, but true. But this is a case where the 3 month pre-population phase might come in handy. SS could make changes and adjustments based on what the poineers "discover" during that time.
Those three months are for building the world. The devs don't want to open up the floodgates at once.
I would like to fast forward time and be here to read the threads 2-3 months after this game is launched just to read about the creative ways the players find to grief others. Ways the game developers never imagined. Trust humans to come up with ways to make other humans miserable.
I've been vocal about pre-planning grief strategies on the CoE forums in the past for this exact reason. Better to point them out early and plan for them.
That's why i'm adamant about them rooting out potential grief mechanics during alpha and beta. The "drag criminals to prison" mechanic that's been discussed is one such mechanic i'm certain is going to need a hard look at.
Comments
The reason CoE will never split into a pve/pvp server game (besides diluting and stretching its own playerbase) is because one of the hallmarks of the game is consequence. Real consequence.
Actions in games need to be tied to outcomes that players really care about. When you neuter an open world sandbox and take away repercussions for one's actions, no one cares what anyone is doing and griefing can go unchecked, unchallenged.
By losing game time through poor choices, you force a players hand -- they either need to play a lot more carefully in doing what they're doing, or they need to find safer areas and safer hobbies.
edit; some might say this punishes PVP. I say it punishes reckless pvp. Survival of the fittest -- thoughtless pkers will die out and be punished frequently and severely. Careful and cautious pvpers won't.
Rift: Sea of Ladon griefing: http://forums.riftgame.com/general-discussions/general-discussion/476123-sea-ladon-griefing-still-ongoing.html
SWTOR: healing faction mobs to prevent them being killed - http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=761354
ESO: vampire and werewolf griefing -
And all it took was a simple google search for each one. I've never even played the first three.
Like you are dead, unless you believe in the spiritual world you are not coming back from there to tell the police who murdered you or draw a picture and so on so why should COE be like this?
A Good reason I am glad I am not backing COE as a development for a game it has already been ruined for me before launch and in a very stupid way, like the system would be fine if you get rid of aging and perm-death, but if you are going this realistic then the game simply has to remain realistic...
Having safe zones is one of the biggest contributors. I remember when i played Blade and Soul i'd see some quest hubs guarded by packs of vets, waiting for people to leave so they could pick them off. Even if some other group pushed them out, the initial griefers lost nothing and could always come back another time.
In CoE, griefers have everything to lose. There won't be a safe zone banks storing all your money and gear safely. If you fuck up and piss off a city state with a standing army, and they find out where you're based out of, its a war. If you lose it, you lose everything you have. You won't be permadead, but you'll have nothing with which to grief or pk anyone.
I had 100-150 days played per character on 3 characters on wow and I saw PVE griefing. All it took was one hit on a mob you was going to attack to "tag" it then when you attack you get the ago sp you need to kill it. Then they get the loot
It's actually led me to be blinded and come across as someone who is 100% a fan boy. I'm looking forward to the game and I am supporting it because I want to play. Do I have doubts at times yes but it's not going to stop me hoping.
Why don't all the hating "experts" just leave the CoE forum for those that actually are interested in the gsme and don't want to see negativity.
Real life is not a Fantasy, Games are. Stop comparing the two.
Back to the Topic....I see many Wanna-Be Griefers here whining....err I meant "Trying to justify their arguments", because they will NOT get their way in CoE.
Keep up the good work CoE!!
"My Fantasy is having two men at once...
One Cooking and One Cleaning!"
---------------------------
"A good man can make you feel sexy,
strong and able to take on the whole world...
oh sorry...that's wine...wine does that..."
In CoE everything will be player driven in stead of scripted. In populated areas you will be safe. To get resources you will need to go to less populated areas. In stead of boss mobs, you risk encountering a player who kills and loots you. When a lot of players go to one area the resource will be gone soon and won't respawn. So you will have to go to more remote locations to get resources. When playing this game you will never know what you will encounter. Even mobs don't respawn at fixed locations.
PKers take a risk too. I they could kill without possible repercussions then everyone would kill everyone else all the time.
The devs of this game want to make a game where the more you risk the more you can gain. They don't want to make a free for all kill game. They want a spark of life to last 10-14 months for the average player. We don't know how everything will work yet. For that we will have to wait for launch. If griefing is a problem in this game, no doubt the devs will somehow increase the risk for killing someone. If killing other players becomes rare, no doubt the devs will somehow decrease the risk for killing someone. If a players use up their spark of life sooner than planed, no doubt the devs will decrease the amount of life taken by a coup de grace.
hahahaaa griefers will grief on all levels...good luck with that
Also, i would be very surprised if a 'king' actually lived out their lifespan, i suspect that the position of king will probably be a very fluid one.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
Its not griefing, its just using game mechanics in the way they were intended, otherwise, why would dying reduce your characters lifespan at an accelerated rate, as someone earlier mentioned, a king only has to die 5 times before they are permadeathed, why have that in a game unless a kings actions did not have a greater consequence, and a bad king, or at least, one that isn't liked very much, is likely to have more, and perhaps more determined, enemies.
So how many times do you have to kill a guild leader before he/she is gone for good, 10, 20, 30 times maybe ?
That's why i'm adamant about them rooting out potential grief mechanics during alpha and beta. The "drag criminals to prison" mechanic that's been discussed is one such mechanic i'm certain is going to need a hard look at.