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Strength Different Between Level Should be Minimized
nerovergil
Member UncommonPosts: 680
Character level was a framework for all mmorpg. Level cant be removed, unless in an insta pvp arena, like gw2 spvp. (and in my opinion all mmorpg should have insta spvp matchmaking like gw2 with max gear and level.)
The different between level 1 character and the max level character, let say level 100 must be so little. very little different that makes high skilled level 1 player can beat a medium skill level 100 player.
If this is guild war 2, the different between lvl 1 and lv 100 is,
1. level 100 with max legendary gear, max gear enchantment, legendary food only has +1000 health and +1000 damage compared to level 1 with all basic gear, basic gear enchantment and basic food buff
if level 1 hit level 100 for 2k damage, level 100 hit level 1 for 3k damage. If level 1 has 10k health, level 100 has 11k health.
Why i want its to be like this? because many modern player complain, including me, i think mmorpg need a change. We want insta fun with some element of progression.
We all have life, need to work, cant grinding for hours just to be competitive.
With this little different, grinding is optional. u can be competitive without grinding. player who grinding will have advantage, but very little. level 1 player can fight level 100 player.
With this system, Developer can make leveling required a huge grinding amount. this is to prolong the game lifetime (player will lose interest if they already reach max level). and to sell something in cash shop (like x2 exp scroll)
The different between level 1 character and the max level character, let say level 100 must be so little. very little different that makes high skilled level 1 player can beat a medium skill level 100 player.
If this is guild war 2, the different between lvl 1 and lv 100 is,
1. level 100 with max legendary gear, max gear enchantment, legendary food only has +1000 health and +1000 damage compared to level 1 with all basic gear, basic gear enchantment and basic food buff
if level 1 hit level 100 for 2k damage, level 100 hit level 1 for 3k damage. If level 1 has 10k health, level 100 has 11k health.
Why i want its to be like this? because many modern player complain, including me, i think mmorpg need a change. We want insta fun with some element of progression.
We all have life, need to work, cant grinding for hours just to be competitive.
With this little different, grinding is optional. u can be competitive without grinding. player who grinding will have advantage, but very little. level 1 player can fight level 100 player.
With this system, Developer can make leveling required a huge grinding amount. this is to prolong the game lifetime (player will lose interest if they already reach max level). and to sell something in cash shop (like x2 exp scroll)
Comments
TSW for example doesn't have levels (so it can be removed
In TSW the difference is pretty much what you've described - if we ignore the god-like wings, of course
If you compare a fresh character right out of the tutorial, and a character at the endgame doing NM raids... the latter has +33% HP, has +10ish % mitigation, and some innate bonuses on weapons, so if both of them grabbing the same newbie shotgun for example, the endgame player will deal a bit more damage with it. That's it.
In sight of "regular" MMOs where simply just gaining a dozen levels doubles your HP for example, the difference in TSW is minimal.
But since progression is needed (unfortunately, for me personally story progression would be enough
This is maybe the only part I really don't like in TSW, the massive gear grind at the end... Even with the added daily mechanics, and the barter token revamp, it's a real pain to reach end(ish) gear. And it's pretty much nullified one of the best part of TSW, the flexibility. Since grinding out a cool endgame set is tedious, most folks do it only for their main role, and stop there.
Sure, a healing deck with a capped dps gear is still better than a healing deck with an average healing gear, but there'll always be the little voice whispering "if only you'd waste 4 more months, you'd heal much better when you're in a healing mood". It's like a little sting, in the back. And as Marsellus said, F it :awesome: (https://youtu.be/ruhFmBrl4GM )
Right, because players want a "prolonged lifetime" where it's purely just grind, and they also want "something to sell in cash shop"
Maybe in SK, but I'm pretty sure there are tons of player who don't like grind and cash shop...
Players interested in killing other players has better options - LoL, CoD, etc.
MMOs are already f%cked up for people who seek decent massively multiplayer online role playing gaming experience because of mouth breathing wtfpwn wannabe e-sporters and companies who think they can maximise customer base by including several genres in one game.
By their very nature they are supposed to have combat heavily influenced by progression mechanics, generally favoring those who put in time and or effort to climb to the top of the hill so they can kick everyone else off.
See EVE, classic DAOC, EQ1 1999, vanilla WOW even for progression and grind done "right."
The simplification, removal of socialization mechanics and catering to casuals basically brought the MMORPG genre to its knees.
We can only hope the new indie reincarnation can bring back enjoyable and playable games ince again.
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However, its a battle where both sides are right.
If you have a game with power gaps, it means your game has personal progression - the longer you play, the stronger your character gets which provides positive feedback to the player - something essential for hooking players in. However, this makes it harder to find other people to play with which kills the grouping scene (in comparison to its full potential) and really hurts pvp. Even at endgame where the power gap should shrink, most MMOs keep power gaps going through gear progression.
The alternative is to scrap power gaps. This has the added benefit of making finding groups really easy, because there are going to be tons more players of a suitable level/gear/power. Grouping is how you make friends, its how you form guilds, its how you build a community. A strong community is what keeps an MMO alive. However, if you remove the vertical progression, you also remove a lot of motivation to continue playing. Why grind a raid for 4 months if you aren't going to get any better?
The only time power gaps work without too much detrimental effects is when your population is massive, which is why WoW gets away with it. If your community is sufficiently large enough then finding similar players becomes easy. However, it is stupid for a developer to assume their game is going to permanently have a massive playerbase.
The ultimate solution, in my mind, is horizontal progression. It is rarely seen in MMOs and is often done badly, but it is quite common outside of MMOs. The "best" example is probably the Call of Duty games. Unlocking a sniper rifle isn't necessarily going to make you better, it just offers you a different style of gameplay. Sure, there is still some vertical progression but power gaps in games like CoD are very small, it is mostly horizontal progression and it works very well.
LotRO is the only MMO I've played with horizontal progression (vanilla). It still had vertical progression whilst leveling, but when you reached cap (50), there were 4 endgame sets (crit crafted, helegrod raid, rift raid and pvp) which were all roughly equivalent. Each set offered bonuses that made you better in some areas and worse in others, so overall power was the same but you could customise to suit your playstyle once you had all sets.
The upshot was that participation in endgame activities was excellent and all inclusive - you didn't have to grind armour for months to be able to raid, then grind that raid for months to do the next raid. Pretty much everyone could take part in endgame, making grouping easier. It generated an excellent social atmosphere and still provided you with rewards to aim for.
most moba is isometric camera with bad graphic art. i want something like gw2, black desert and archeage, 3rd person camera.
Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
I don't like CoD or Battlefield myself, but I am a fan of horizontal progression and these are just a couple of games that show exactly how well they can work (in terms of hooking players in to long term play).
Whats so bizzare is that minor differentials in power is perfectly acceptable for these old styles at level cap. People spent years raiding for those minor 1% power increases at the level cap.
Whats also counter-intuitive about the old style mmo proponents is that almost always are agianst solo gameplay. The want to play with others, they want to enjoy adventures in a group. Yet they also want to seperate themselves from ability to play with others via their "achievements". This seems less like co-op PvE and more like Competitve PvE, thus we also get the issue of "racing" to the endgame.
1) there is no "beating" in a PvE game.
2) level 1 don't have to play with level 100
3) If a L100 is power leveling a L1, i bet the L1 wouldn't mind the L100 has a lot more power.
PEACE
For themeparks action adventure style like Zelda would do the it good. Its how things are drifting anyways with leveling and deleveling to zones. Grabbing gear to get past gated content should be more completing an epic quest to get a fire cloak to fight an epic dragon than grinding out something to get X level gear from epic dragon 20x times or forced to be level 2000. In the end you will generally always have things to do because you're not skipping content on the level grind. The content always stays relevant. Deleveling its essentially just admitting leveling is in the way.
Back in the day there were people who hated progression in rpgs (Progression is critical in rpgs). So they created the term vertical progression so they could create the term horizontal progression. To clarify, horizontal progression really means no progression.
You might want some kind of game, you may believe it to be an rpg, but without progression, you don't have the rpg. Remember, horizontal progression means no progression.
So you need to find a game that has some of the elements of rpg and your non-progression and call it something else. Something that doesn't have rpg in the name.
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RPG does not require you to gain vast power. Progressing through gaining new abilities to do new stuff vs. killing more is also progression. If I gain a cloak or spell that gave me protection against heat that allows me to go the lava zone you're not vastly more powerful.
I don't get why people are so stuck on gaining power that the enemy is always scaled to fight you. It doesn't even make sense most of the time. Demon of the depths is level 50 next expansion you're fighting timber wolves that are level 60.
If you gain a spell that protects you from lava, that is power. Now you can go there and kill stuff. That is no different than having a spell that now can kill the lavaman, where you could not before.
Oh, don't forget to make it F2P. Just charge 10 cents every time you click a button. But, it's FREEEEEE!
That being said, there's no reason for the absurd gap in power that we see from level 1 to max in games like WoW. I can handle incremental increases as long as I can control them. For me, progression is all about building the character as I imagine it, not getting arbitrarily stronger just to handle the monsters who get the same amount of arbitrarily stronger.
I'd much rather have a game where I can go back to old content to play with friends, or complete achievements, or just to revisit areas I enjoyed and know that I can't just be asleep at the keyboard and still decimate everything around me. I would still enjoy a little bit of a challenge with a feeling of being just slightly more powerful.
At the same time I would also enjoy the reverse, the ability to go off into more challenging areas and still be able to hold my own in a fight through knowing my character well and utilizing the full potential of my abilities rather than having to meet some arbitrary requirement that results in me getting 1 shot and doing no damage if I don't meet it.
The old system of huge power gaps just isn't appealing anymore. All it results in is people powering through levels to hit cap then start the "real" game of end game grinding for small improvements in power. Why create that atmosphere when you can have gradual progression throughout the game, make use of the entire world and all of it's content, and let people come together all over to face challenges instead of being boxed into repeatedly doing the same 5-10% of the content that makes up the end game grind.
I want to see my character getting stronger and stronger. I want gaps between someone who is level 1 and level 100. But then again I enjoy the pve aspect more than the pvp in most games. I enjoy leveling, but not gear grinds, so I usually stop playing when I can no longer get better through leveling.
allowed me to group with max level guildies, and they still got max experience for their level