Hardcore player exhaust the bleeding edge of the game. You need something out of reach of the normies (avg player) so they can have something to reach towards. Content is king, running out of content is the king's jester. :P
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
didn't realize hardcore players still existed in mmos there has not been a decent one released in along time, i have tried them all and wow, eve online are the only game i would say are worth playing at all and i hate wow it has been turned into a little kiddies game with no customization and easy game play. eve has a good corporation mechanic people lay together or you fail though is for hard core player alot of people do not like loosing ships for good when they blow up. wow has destroyed there guild system by making content and game play to easy and by adding raid and dungeon finders so that people don't have to play as a team anymore rip guilds.looking at all games for the next few year i am yet to see any that are worth playing. Very sick of playing eastern games and there pay to win or just plane bad game play.Talking archage and black desert there .
If anything, hardcore players ruin games for themselves, they race through content and rarely stop to 'smell the roses' so they breeze through games and eventually leave, not a problem for anyone but themselves imo. ps. sorry for the errors but white text on a white backbround complicates thigns a huge deal.
And the problem before they leave is they start trash talking the game on every game site they can. They never leave quietly. Most people happy with their game never go to game sites.
You don't have mmos without hardcore players, casuals literally did not exist when the industry got it's start. Games have gotten less interesting and less world like as casuals have showed up and whined about investment required for achieving things. You are a plague, and you are the reason this industry is in the dumps.
uhh blizzard reached peak numbers in WotLK and to many people it was the greatest xpack, there was fun raids in TBC but a lot of broken bosses too,
Lets be honest, wotlk was when WoW stopped growing, and it wasn't because they ran out of potential players. WoW is still just a drop in the gaming bucket. New people were coming in, but just as many were on their way out and it only trended down from there.
The difference between the end of BC and WotLK was negligible.
casuals killed mmo's before casuals they released mmopg's that were about a fun aspect of gameplay, made an idea and stuck with it. Now casuals cry and everything good about mmo's gets dumbed down and its gg for them.
Yes, Hardcore gamers ruins mmo's. look at wildstar. nuff said.
An example of a game that was sure to please no one.
Wildstar didnt fail because they tried to appeal to a hardcore audience. It failed because it made a game that not only their target audience didn't want, but the combat system appeals to pretty much no one. A combat system built around 'stay out of the bad'.
uhh blizzard reached peak numbers in WotLK and to many people it was the greatest xpack, there was fun raids in TBC but a lot of broken bosses too,
Lets be honest, wotlk was when WoW stopped growing, and it wasn't because they ran out of potential players. WoW is still just a drop in the gaming bucket. New people were coming in, but just as many were on their way out and it only trended down from there.
The difference between the end of BC and WotLK was negligible.
what i find interesting is according the graph.. the players started leaving during cata... now i find that interesting because i really enjoyed cata up until dragon soul.. i did not enjoy dragon soul to the point it made me quit the game for several months until mop.
but looking at the graph people just didnt like cata and it's been a downhill spiral since then thats my interpretation.
according to that graph it looked like as ICC became more accessible in 2010, more players started coming back for content... i guess the only ones who have the real analytics would be blizzard.. maybe WoW has just run it's course... only time will tell i suppose.
uhh blizzard reached peak numbers in WotLK and to many people it was the greatest xpack, there was fun raids in TBC but a lot of broken bosses too,
Lets be honest, wotlk was when WoW stopped growing, and it wasn't because they ran out of potential players. WoW is still just a drop in the gaming bucket. New people were coming in, but just as many were on their way out and it only trended down from there.
The difference between the end of BC and WotLK was negligible.
THat is exactly what I was thinking. The graph clearly shows that TBC grew the game more than WotLK. For me, Vanilla and TBC > WotLK >the rest. WotLK is when the game started to really tank for me in terms of game play value.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
I cant figure out who modern MMORPGs exactly are designed for.
Everyone loves to look for WOTLK era WoW for inspiration (this is what you see in games like Rift and SWTOR). Problem is, WOTLK may have been the peak of WoW in terms of subs, but also when the newness of dailies began to wear off and only the lore (pun intended) of Arthas kept the dislike many people had of the endgame from having a negative impact on the population.
Modern MMOs seem to take little of what made Vanilla WoW (and the games before it) have long term appeal in the first place.
fact: at the time of WolK there were already disasters.
Tier 7 was a rehash at a level of difficulty insulting the original. Tier 8 was one of the greatest raids of all time and the introduction of Hardmodes. Tier 9 was the most hated raid of all time. It also introduced the most hated hardcore mechanic of all times: Limited attempts. Tier 10: limited attempts became worse. Guilds geared entire alt raidgroups to compete in the world race. The most pathetic change of all times: Stacking nerf was also introduced. Semi-hardcore guilds got ravaged by the mentality of "let's wait for next 5% nerf before progressing".
WolK had one glorious raid and 3 very disputable raid tiers. A very rushed tier 9, and a good quality bad implementation tier 10.
Meanwhile Burning Crusade...so good.
Didn't think WOTLK was that good at all. I mean it was good by Cata/MoP/WoD standards, but by Vanilla and TBC? No. Well, TBC 2.1 and TBC 2.2. 2.3, IMO was the start of the decline.
uhh blizzard reached peak numbers in WotLK and to many people it was the greatest xpack, there was fun raids in TBC but a lot of broken bosses too,
most of the people i still play WoW with or knew back in vanilla days, loved vanilla and TBC but really thought WoW came into it's own during wrath, that being said wrath could also be considered the downfall, when things started to take a turn for the worse and getting over simplified...
it's a rock and a hard place really...
but as someone who cleared 10 and 25 man ICC on heroic well before any nerfs came in, it was a fun and enjoyable raid.. but ulduar was definitely a pinnacle for WoW raiding.
Edit - to clarify, i also raided in vanilla and TBC.. but i feel the raids actually felt a lot less broken and worked better during wrath. TBC had a lot of broken bosses we started running silly compositions for and such to kill things.
Wrath was just riding the wave of popularity generated by Vanillla and BC. Vanilla added 7M players. BC added 4M more. Wrath added what? 1M? I suppose there is something to be said for at least not losing players. But that's about all it did.
If anything then blame the players for not thinking out of the box. You can consume the game as it is. But you can also organise your own events. The two are approaches are not mutual exclusive. If you accept the EULA (without reading) you are not forced to a certain playstyle.
what i find interesting is according the graph.. the players started leaving during cata... now i find that interesting because i really enjoyed cata up until dragon soul.. i did not enjoy dragon soul to the point it made me quit the game for several months until mop.
but looking at the graph people just didnt like cata and it's been a downhill spiral since then thats my interpretation.
according to that graph it looked like as ICC became more accessible in 2010, more players started coming back for content... i guess the only ones who have the real analytics would be blizzard.. maybe WoW has just run it's course... only time will tell i suppose.
I was interested in Cataclysm when the concept was announced (having not played since Burning Crusade) but I looked at Let's Plays for some of the starter areas and really didn't see that the stories had improved or the world become more immersive and less cliche, or any of the things that the changes to the low level areas were ostensibly supposed to accomplish.
I want to help design and develop a PvE-focused, solo-friendly, sandpark MMO which combines crafting, monster hunting, and story. So PM me if you are starting one.
This video sums up alot of the problems with MMO's atm imo
This video does sum up a lot of the issues. The issue wasn't really about raiding but the fact raiding became the entire game. Look back in classic and it took a long time to reach max level and we loved the game for it still and very few people actually raided (my server there were 3 real raid guilds, mine and 2 others). Most people didn't raid and they were for the most part fine with that. TBC the game from 50-60 was sped up and hitting the next max level wasn't that hard and it became a solo/duo experience for most with the odd dungeon mixed in and raiding started to grow to bring in more players while still only a small percent did the harder raids. Come WOTLK leveling became a solo thing and the game had switched over to raiding as the core and while it offered some very nice raids it killed everything before the raids. Further with each expansion the previous content became obsolete and not just at the previous raiding level but the entire content. It became a rush to the latest stuff and the newest raids. After WOTLK raiding became even easier which had already been toned in BC and then a lot more in WOTLK to being easy compared to older stuff and still all the content before it became useless and it was just about pushing to the new max solo.
This is why the hardcore blame the casuals as they are called which isn't really a proper word for them to be honest. But those *casuals* or whatever you want to call them didn't feel like they wanted to invest large amounts of time leveling to max level and doing slow grinds along the way which in the older days we didn't mind because we had community and social aspects to keep us busy. They wanted it quick and they wanted to have access to everything the hardcore players had access to be it the gear, raids, or simply the *cool factor*. No *casual* before would have every gotten very far in AV in classic towards a Warmasters set and such because it required a LOT of time put in to compete.
Further the fact that if it took you 3 months in classic to reach max level and new expac takes a month it should then take 4 months to reach the new max level but some wanted to feel like they could jump right into the new content w/o doing the full rounds on the old content so the old content was dumbed down and even erased. If classic took 3 months and each expac took 1 month to reach its max your then talking 8 months to get into the newest content and 9 months before are of level to touch the top level content and then of course over that 9 months the next expac could be out and then an additional month to be at top of the 7th expac. That seems like a big downer if your focus was to get into raiding instead of the journey.
People forgot what an MMORPG is about. Its not about raiding but about a journey and adventure and its the same things Devs have forgotten as well.
Hardcore players are ruining their own life not the game they are playing. Lets get real bout this. If a hardcore player has an advantage over the majority of players you have to realize this person is probably a very sad soul. I'm guessing the person is overweight so there is health concerns. They probably have some sort of social problem so they spend an enormous amount of time online and playing games. They probably have very bad communication skills so appear to be rude. The list goes on and on. Basically a player like this is a psychologists wet dream.
Hardcore players are ruining their own life not the game they are playing. Lets get real bout this. If a hardcore player has an advantage over the majority of players you have to realize this person is probably a very sad soul. I'm guessing the person is overweight so there is health concerns. They probably have some sort of social problem so they spend an enormous amount of time online and playing games. They probably have very bad communication skills so appear to be rude. The list goes on and on. Basically a player like this is a psychologists wet dream.
Don't honestly know where you could possibly have gained that idea from.. oh wait..
Hardcore players are ruining their own life not the game they are playing. Lets get real bout this. If a hardcore player has an advantage over the majority of players you have to realize this person is probably a very sad soul. I'm guessing the person is overweight so there is health concerns. They probably have some sort of social problem so they spend an enormous amount of time online and playing games. They probably have very bad communication skills so appear to be rude. The list goes on and on. Basically a player like this is a psychologists wet dream.
Maybe the person simply doesn't have any other current hobbies of interest? Maybe they are retired with lots of spare time on there hands? Maybe they are a network admin who most of the time has nothing to do but sit there waiting on an issue to arise from the VP watching porn with virus's attached. Maybe its a stay at home parent who takes care of the kids and doesn't have much to do during the day when the kids are at school? Maybe they are a disabled veteran who can't work and is limited in physical activities?
None of those I see as socially inept or unacceptable. None of them suggest an overweight slob at 40 years old living in the parents basement. I've known a number who have fit every single one of those groups I listed. None of them I would call losers in the real world and each one of those categories could produce a hardcore player.... who isn't an a$$hole.
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I self identify as a monkey.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
sorry my actual kill date was 22/04/2010 in 25 man, of everything i said you latched onto that. No problem.
The difference between the end of BC and WotLK was negligible.
Wildstar didnt fail because they tried to appeal to a hardcore audience. It failed because it made a game that not only their target audience didn't want, but the combat system appeals to pretty much no one. A combat system built around 'stay out of the bad'.
what i find interesting is according the graph.. the players started leaving during cata... now i find that interesting because i really enjoyed cata up until dragon soul.. i did not enjoy dragon soul to the point it made me quit the game for several months until mop.
but looking at the graph people just didnt like cata and it's been a downhill spiral since then thats my interpretation.
according to that graph it looked like as ICC became more accessible in 2010, more players started coming back for content... i guess the only ones who have the real analytics would be blizzard.. maybe WoW has just run it's course... only time will tell i suppose.
THat is exactly what I was thinking. The graph clearly shows that TBC grew the game more than WotLK. For me, Vanilla and TBC > WotLK >the rest. WotLK is when the game started to really tank for me in terms of game play value.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
- Friedrich Nietzsche
This is why the hardcore blame the casuals as they are called which isn't really a proper word for them to be honest. But those *casuals* or whatever you want to call them didn't feel like they wanted to invest large amounts of time leveling to max level and doing slow grinds along the way which in the older days we didn't mind because we had community and social aspects to keep us busy. They wanted it quick and they wanted to have access to everything the hardcore players had access to be it the gear, raids, or simply the *cool factor*. No *casual* before would have every gotten very far in AV in classic towards a Warmasters set and such because it required a LOT of time put in to compete.
Further the fact that if it took you 3 months in classic to reach max level and new expac takes a month it should then take 4 months to reach the new max level but some wanted to feel like they could jump right into the new content w/o doing the full rounds on the old content so the old content was dumbed down and even erased. If classic took 3 months and each expac took 1 month to reach its max your then talking 8 months to get into the newest content and 9 months before are of level to touch the top level content and then of course over that 9 months the next expac could be out and then an additional month to be at top of the 7th expac. That seems like a big downer if your focus was to get into raiding instead of the journey.
People forgot what an MMORPG is about. Its not about raiding but about a journey and adventure and its the same things Devs have forgotten as well.
Maybe the person simply doesn't have any other current hobbies of interest? Maybe they are retired with lots of spare time on there hands? Maybe they are a network admin who most of the time has nothing to do but sit there waiting on an issue to arise from the VP watching porn with virus's attached. Maybe its a stay at home parent who takes care of the kids and doesn't have much to do during the day when the kids are at school? Maybe they are a disabled veteran who can't work and is limited in physical activities?
None of those I see as socially inept or unacceptable. None of them suggest an overweight slob at 40 years old living in the parents basement. I've known a number who have fit every single one of those groups I listed. None of them I would call losers in the real world and each one of those categories could produce a hardcore player.... who isn't an a$$hole.
Damned herd animals.