Charge Back and Refunds

Adjuvant1 · June 2016

The thing with class action, every participant needs to agree on the same set of issues which made them argue false advertisement or whatever else upon which the suit is based. People are divided on many lines why exactly they're upset, from bad VR integration to bait and switch sales tactics to a whole list of whatever it is which they dislike and feel wronged. You'd need to get many people on one page, not just x thousand people who claim fraud. You'd need specifics and evidence.

mr1602 · June 2016

The 'legal' talk is nice and all, but unless you live in a country where 'the customer is entitled to a refund for goods not delivered' law does not exist, is a moot point. The 'legalese' might vary depending on country.

Discussing the definition of 'not delivered' is also a moot point as it'll be VISA that ultimately decides that in a charge back case.
And while CIG can dispute / exercise their legal right, suing the main mechanism in which CIG gets their money (via credit card transaction) is not going to happen.

mr1602 · June 2016

A lot has been written around the new ToS and how it is making it harder for people to get refunds.

http://www.kotaku.co.uk/2016/06/20/star-citizen-changes-terms-of-service-to-make-it-more-difficult-to-get-a-refund
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2016-06-21-star-citizen-terms-of-service-update-makes-it-a-bit-harder-to-get-a-refund
http://www.pcgamesn.com/star-citizen/star-citizen-refunds
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2016-06-21-star-citizens-refunds-process-just-got-more-complicated

Based upon my personal experience, I can state the following;
1. The number of people wanting to get refunds has increased
2. The number of people getting refunds through charge back or other methods* has increased.
3. The percentage of people getting refunds hasn't changed.

* I am told UK backers are going through the small claims court and after showing evidence that a small claims has been filed to CIG, CIG is refunding them. Since I don't live in the UK this isn't 1st hand knowledge but enough people have told me the same story to make me believe it is true.

Erillion · June 2016

mr1602 said:

Based upon my personal experience,

What is the sample size w.r.t refunds you personally have witnessed ?

Not heard about on the internet from unknown strangers.

The number of people you personally know that asked for refunds.

5 ?
10 ?
50 ?
500 ?

I can tell you my number. 1. One person out of approx four dozen SC friends. And that was for economic reasons (lost his job, needed money).

Have fun

bmw66 · June 2016

Games toast. 5yrs and $100mil later you still have a pre-pre alpha game.............. if that.

Started off with a great idea and turned into a Bernie Madoff type scheme.

Erillion · June 2016

bmw66 said:

Games toast. 5yrs and $100mil later you still have a pre-pre alpha game.............. if that.

Started off with a great idea and turned into a Bernie Madoff type scheme.

Do you really know what Bernie Madoff did and what a Ponzi scheme is ?

No one gets any real life money that someone else has invested. Which DOES happen in the early stages of a Ponzi scheme. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ponzi_scheme

Its just a crowdfunded video game. Not a "fraudulent investment operation".

Have fun

CrazKanuk · June 2016

BanDeflector said:

Erillion said:

bmw66 said:

Games toast. 5yrs and $100mil later you still have a pre-pre alpha game.............. if that.

"fraudulent investment operation".

With the changes to the TOS it's looking just like that!

Why's that? You know, I remember when Wal-Mart used to take returns on just about anything, anytime, no questions asked. Now you get like 14-days on electronics, games are a laugh to return, and anything past 30 days is pretty much a no-go. I don't think that there are underlying nefarious reasons for Wal-Mart changing their return policy. In reality, it's likely that there were people with nefarious actions which ruined it for everyone else. Judging by the timing of said TOS changes, it wouldn't surprise me if the same could be said here.

GeezerGamer · June 2016

CrazKanuk said:
I remember when Wal-Mart used to take returns on just about anything, anytime, no questions asked.

If people had something to "return" this thread wouldn't even exist.

CrazKanuk · June 2016

Rhoklaw said:

CrazKanuk said:

BanDeflector said:

Erillion said:

bmw66 said:

Games toast. 5yrs and $100mil later you still have a pre-pre alpha game.............. if that.

"fraudulent investment operation".

With the changes to the TOS it's looking just like that!

Why's that? You know, I remember when Wal-Mart used to take returns on just about anything, anytime, no questions asked. Now you get like 14-days on electronics, games are a laugh to return, and anything past 30 days is pretty much a no-go. I don't think that there are underlying nefarious reasons for Wal-Mart changing their return policy. In reality, it's likely that there were people with nefarious actions which ruined it for everyone else. Judging by the timing of said TOS changes, it wouldn't surprise me if the same could be said here.

Or maybe, people don't expect to see the game they were promised back in 2012, as in ever.

Yup, expectations are varied, without a doubt. However, at this point, I find it highly unlikely that someone were to stumble upon SC without ever having heard of it before. It's much more likely that would have happened earlier on, back in 2012. That's likely why CIG offered voluntary refunds for over 3 years to anyone who asked. However, with the swirling winds of Internet assholes, I really can't blame CIG for tightening the belt on those TOS. Would you be in agreement that the vast majority of gamers have heard of SC by now? So why shouldn't policies change to prevent future abuse, knowing what we know about the Internet?

GrumpyHobbit · June 2016

After the game being in development for so long and them offering refunds for so long (3 years...if you can't make up your mind if you think the game is for you or not in 3 months you have problems but 3 years!!!) I don't see why they shouldn't put a clause in there to say "hey, you paid to get the game developed and it is a long winded process and the money is spent now so sorry folks, no refunds".

And I am sure there are people out there that would give money knowing full well that they will ask for a refund later because they just like being dicks. The scenario of "I will give them money now, then when they have spent it ask for a refund, that will really fuck them up" isn't beyond what can be expected with some mindsets on these very forums let alone the wider gaming audience.

Xeno.phon · June 2016

Kids, you have no right to charge back, maybe in time you will. But for now, you do not. This is not "just a purchase" in the eyes of the courts, it is very complicated and the legalities are still being hashed out.

So why dont you all put you adult pants on, calm down and wait for supper like normal people.

Also, the clause in their TOS about delays enabling refunds does not apply either. They stated that the original release date was scrapped and the scope of the game had changed within 30 days of the KS completion. So THEN would have been when you did a refund. Not years later.........

You were informed of the release date change, you have no right to invoke that clause of the TOS, you have no legal right to charge back in the court systems due to the donation classification, so why are you kids huffing and puffing?

Just wait for the game to launch, go use a magnifying glass on some ants or something, amuse yourselves while you wait in ways that dont involve borderline harassment and slander.

CrazKanuk · June 2016

GeezerGamer said:

CrazKanuk said:
I remember when Wal-Mart used to take returns on just about anything, anytime, no questions asked.

If people had something to "return" this thread wouldn't even exist.

Oh you..... I think you underestimate the Internet.

rpmcmurphy · June 2016

I'm not at all surprised that people are looking for refunds, especially in recent days.

The last patch was given "improved bug testing time" with a select bunch of volunteers who were meant to make the process go smoother and faster.
Instead it was so buggy that it still needed 20+ patches just to get onto the PTU and even then it still turns out to be an idiotic janky bug-infested mess.

Hardly confidence inspiring.

lokiboard · June 2016

Do you people have anything better to do?

GeezerGamer · June 2016

CrazKanuk said:

GeezerGamer said:

CrazKanuk said:
I remember when Wal-Mart used to take returns on just about anything, anytime, no questions asked.

If people had something to "return" this thread wouldn't even exist.

Oh you..... I think you underestimate the Internet.

I think you are confusing Walmart with CIG

olepi · June 2016

How can anyone ask for a refund from a donation?

Nobody is buying a game here, it doesn't exist. They are donating money to an effort. You don't get your money back from a donation, right?

rpmcmurphy · June 2016

olepi said:

How can anyone ask for a refund from a donation?

Nobody is buying a game here, it doesn't exist. They are donating money to an effort. You don't get your money back from a donation, right?

Kickstarter falls into the crowdfunding donations category, CIG's online store does not.

olepi · June 2016

rpmcmurphy said:

olepi said:

How can anyone ask for a refund from a donation?

Nobody is buying a game here, it doesn't exist. They are donating money to an effort. You don't get your money back from a donation, right?

Kickstarter falls into the crowdfunding donations category, CIG's online store does not.

How could anybody buy something from a in-game store, without there actually being a game in the first place?

Everybody who bought a ship in the store has their ship to look at, right? How could they ask for a refund?

BeansnBread · June 2016

olepi said:

rpmcmurphy said:

olepi said:

How can anyone ask for a refund from a donation?

Nobody is buying a game here, it doesn't exist. They are donating money to an effort. You don't get your money back from a donation, right?

Kickstarter falls into the crowdfunding donations category, CIG's online store does not.

How could anybody buy something from a in-game store, without there actually being a game in the first place?

Everybody who bought a ship in the store has their ship to look at, right? How could they ask for a refund?

There are many ships that aren't in the alpha version of the game. They've said that some of the ships won't even be available till after release (an "official" release that may never technically happen).

Also, people didn't just pay for a ship, they also paid for a full game with an incredible amount of stretch goals (they raised a lot of funding based on stating that they could reach these goals).

And it really boils down to this. If you make a purchase order for 100 bails of hay and they show up with 1 bail of hay, you are entitled to a refund for 99 bails of hay. In the case of Star Citizen, people should just being doing chargbacks because the promised product wasn't delivered in a timely fashion (especially those people that purchased early and were promised a game by November 2014).

tawess · June 2016

Well to be fair anyone getting it 2015 and forward can´t claim "not in timely fashion" since no real fixed deadline was presented and it was made clear that any date was speculative and subject to change.

They knew they "bought" a dream and they should stick to their decision. But i know that is asking for to much so i guess we will have to simply accept that a bunch of people need CGI to bail them out of their own lack of self preservation.

BeansnBread · June 2016

tawess said:

Well to be fair anyone getting it 2015 and forward can´t claim "not in timely fashion" since no real fixed deadline was presented and it was made clear that any date was speculative and subject to change.

They knew they "bought" a dream and they should stick to their decision. But i know that is asking for to much so i guess we will have to simply accept that a bunch of people need CGI to bail them out of their own lack of self preservation.

I don't think anyone thought they "bought a dream." Actually, that might be the stupidest thing I've read yet.

mr1602 · June 2016

Xeno.phon said:

Kids, you have no right to charge back, maybe in time you will. But for now, you do not. This is not "just a purchase" in the eyes of the courts, it is very complicated and the legalities are still being hashed out.

So why dont you all put you adult pants on, calm down and wait for supper like normal people.

Also, the clause in their TOS about delays enabling refunds does not apply either. They stated that the original release date was scrapped and the scope of the game had changed within 30 days of the KS completion. So THEN would have been when you did a refund. Not years later.........

You were informed of the release date change, you have no right to invoke that clause of the TOS, you have no legal right to charge back in the court systems due to the donation classification, so why are you kids huffing and puffing?

Just wait for the game to launch, go use a magnifying glass on some ants or something, amuse yourselves while you wait in ways that dont involve borderline harassment and slander.

This post is not factually true at all.
There is no 'right to charge back' as a charge back isn't a process in the legal system.
It is a customer protection process by VISA.

And please, stop accusing CIG of breaking the TAX law by charging VAT on a 'donation'.

mr1602 · June 2016

lokiboard said:

Do you people have anything better to do?

According to one backer, the refund i helped him get , got him to pay for rent and put food on the table for his kids tilI he found another employment. I cannot think of a single better use of my time than that.

dsmart · June 2016

Anyone who reads the 2.4 ToS and thinks "This is brilliant! Not a problem", should just go ahead, click on the AGREE button. Then buy a Completionist package.

mr1602 · June 2016

Interestingly the funding graph is probably not accurate or real time.
During the period when the amount was within 5-10% of each other, none of the refunds/charge backs that backers were getting, had any impact on graph. And I know some were big enough to move the numbers by a lot.

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