Anyone watching the recent Pantheon videos and telling themselves that the finished game will appeal wide in any shape or form, is flat-out in denial - or completely ignorant of the modern audience.
Anyone watching the recent Pantheon videos and telling themselves that the finished game will appeal wide in any shape or form, is flat-out in denial - or completely ignorant of the modern audience.
It will appeal to the people it's made for. And there they will dwell, smug in their self-congratulation, while the rest of the MMORPG universe drives away from the quaint, rusting retirement trailer park.
Sell them lifetime subscription schemes; because a game cannot survive another generation after they hang out the "Youngsters Not Welcome" signs. Or maybe it can--EQ's been surviving (after a fashion) for the last decade--so start work early on the "Pantheon Classic" snapshot servers!
you objected to my characterization of MUDs as slow paced and then you outright ignored it.
Because I still have no clue why it would be slow paced ? The only thing slow paced about it was that you had to read all the time because it wasnt a graphic game and everything had to be described with text.
Which also limited the options in many situation, for example there was no positioning, thus there was no way to block the monster with a tank from hitting the mage. But most of the time it wasnt group play either anyway, so there wasnt really a tank around anyway and the mage had a lot better defenses than in a current MMO because they had to stand next to the mob just like everybody else, and their ability to kill fast had to make up their lack of defenses. While in Vanguard, the mob hits the sorcerer ? Dead pretty quickly. You really needed to be able to kite.
The games themselves however have been highly reactive. We used programs like TinyFugue to run around extremely quickly through any terrain we already knew.
The main thing I loved about my first graphic CRPG ? Finally I could solve quests by myself, without asking somebody for the correct syntax to do something.
SavageHorizon said:
So you have counted the numbers then, care to show us your survey?
Surveys are reliable but provide very little validity.
To estimate/measure a demand, you look at the market. What products are therem how much they sell, how many same or similar products there are, you look at features and attributes of products, etc..
Do you see anything that would imply people like what Pantheon is focused on?
SavageHorizon said:
So you have counted the numbers then, care to show us your survey?
Surveys are reliable but provide very little validity.
To estimate/measure a demand, you look at the market. What products are therem how much they sell, how many same or similar products there are, you look at features and attributes of products, etc..
Do you see anything that would imply people like what Pantheon is focused on?
Hard to say when there isn't even a semi modern group oriented MMO like EQ or FFXI out there to see if there would be a good audience for it. Case in point recently the creator of Castlevania symphony of the night had a kick starter for his new game Bloodstained. In it he talked about how he tried to get Konami to make it but they told him no one would play that old side scroll style Castlevania anymore. Needless to say its getting made and will be played by many.
Ya, I'm sure only old people are going to play it too.
Anyone watching the recent Pantheon videos and telling themselves that the finished game will appeal wide in any shape or form, is flat-out in denial - or completely ignorant of the modern audience.
you are absolutely correct but i kind of prefer it to be a smaller tight nit community of players, like how all mmo's were before wow introduced the genre to the masses.
let the masses play the enormous selection of games catered to them, let us be the gaming version of the 3%ers
Anyone watching the recent Pantheon videos and telling themselves that the finished game will appeal wide in any shape or form, is flat-out in denial - or completely ignorant of the modern audience.
you are absolutely correct but i kind of prefer it to be a smaller tight nit community of players, like how all mmo's were before wow introduced the genre to the masses.
let the masses play the enormous selection of games catered to them, let us be the gaming version of the 3%ers
I understand and I'd tend to agree, except it's hard to be truly profitable with a very small audience. People are used to new MMOs every few months - and they're used to pay nothing for them. Even the "hardcore" fans are used to that by now.
MMOs are extremely challenging to develop - and they're even more challenging to release in a stable and polished fashion. Then they need to keep it running and pay a live team for the effort. That takes a lot of money.
Don't get me wrong, I'd actually enjoy a game like Pantheon if it's done well. I loved a lot about Vanguard, too.
But I'm not going to pretend it's going to "take off" and appeal wide. That will never happen with a game on such a budget.
No matter how wonderful the design is - and *yes* I do like much of what they're doing - it will NOT appeal wide unless you cover it in sugar and chocolate.
In that very same way, a very attractive girl who's approachable will ALWAYS get a million times the attention of a very plain girl who wants you to work for it - and their "gameplay" is completely and utterly irrelevant. That said, the plain girl will probably have a more stable relationship - and have an easier time with monogamy (small audience)
All I'm saying is that Pantheon will NEVER be able to sustain "hundreds of thousands" of players. It will NOT happen.
But 10K-50K is within reach. It might peak higher than that, but sustained? No way. NO way.
drivendawn said:
Hard to say when there isn't even a semi modern group oriented MMO like EQ or FFXI out there to see if there would be a good audience for it.
It isn't hard to say at all, the answer is: No.
That is why there are no "semi modern group oriented MMO like EQ or FFXI out there" in the first place.
Lol @ 10-50k. Discussions of the desire for new EQ has been one of the mainstays and most reoccuring topics on this site since its inception.
Another thread to add to my list of threads to bump post launch.
Yes, and we all know how the vocal minority on MMORPG.com represents hundreds of thousands of players
You're setting yourself up for a big disappointment.
That said, I'm looking forward to trying Pantheon out - and if it can really reach 50K players sustained, that should be enough for some modest upgrades.
I doubt it can reach hundreds of thousands at launch, even.
Lol @ 10-50k. Discussions of the desire for new EQ has been one of the mainstays and most reoccuring topics on this site since its inception.
Another thread to add to my list of threads to bump post launch.
Yes, and we all know how the vocal minority on MMORPG.com represents hundreds of thousands of players
You're setting yourself up for a big disappointment.
That said, I'm looking forward to trying Pantheon out - and if it can really reach 50K players sustained, that should be enough for some modest upgrades.
The 250,000 people that bought the last entry in this "very small" niche seem to disagree with you. To note, that was a quarter of a million people who bought a game that was known to be broken and unfinished prior to launch and released simultaneously with WoW's The Burning Crusade.
Let this knowledge season you with rationality and intellectual honesty in your future posts on this topic.
Lol @ 10-50k. Discussions of the desire for new EQ has been one of the mainstays and most reoccuring topics on this site since its inception.
Another thread to add to my list of threads to bump post launch.
Yes, and we all know how the vocal minority on MMORPG.com represents hundreds of thousands of players
You're setting yourself up for a big disappointment.
That said, I'm looking forward to trying Pantheon out - and if it can really reach 50K players sustained, that should be enough for some modest upgrades.
The 250,000 people that bought the last entry in this "very small" niche seem to disagree with you. To note, that was a quarter of a million people who bought a game that was known to be broken and unfinished prior to launch and released simultaneously with WoW's The Burning Crusade.
Let this knowledge season you with rationality and intellectual honesty in your future posts on this topic.
Are you kidding me?
I'm "intellectually dishonest" because I'm pointing out that your fantasy isn't necessarily the fantasy of everyone else?
1. That was 10 years ago. I don't know why you keep missing this, but things have happened in the MMO market segment in the past 10 years. Games have changed - and while you don't think that has affected the players - it has.
2. There's a HUGE difference between buying a game and sticking with it. I just said it might reach those numbers at launch - even though I highly doubt it.
We're talking about 50K players SUSTAINED - not copies sold.
Pantheon for me is one of those wildcards; I have no experience with titles such as EQ, what-so-ever. Go ahead and frown all you want, as I'm one of those who "grew up" on WoW. However, having said that, I'm likely going to give Pantheon a shot when it goes live. (And no, I'm not going to whine and cry if it ends up being a bit to much for me. This one is for you guys and I respect that, truly I do.)
I know enough about Pantheon and games such as EQ to realize that these games are very, very different when compared to WoW. However, my logic is as follows: I currently hate what WoW has become, I'm one of the Vanilla and TBC crowd and I despise what the MMOs of today has become. Easy, accessible and shallow "worlds" filled to the brim with convenience-features and shortcuts allowing players to "progress" without having to put much time and effort.
I prefer the ways of progression feeling important with it taking time and effort to give the player a sense of accomplishment. I prefer having to rely on other players, encouraging community bonds and interraction between one and another.
So with that I'm probably going to check out Pantheon once it goes live. It has a high risk of being a bit to much for me but I'm willing to take that risk to experience something new and different (for me anyhow).
Where were all those hundreds of thousands back then?
Probably underwhelmed by the lack of preparation and progress displayed at the time of the kickstarter.I know I was, which is why I waited until they had something a little more substantive.
Luckily they've made huge strides since then, and a lot of those people have come back around.
Where were all those hundreds of thousands back then?
Probably underwhelmed by the lack of preparation and progress displayed at the time of the kickstarter.I know I was, which is why I waited until they had something a little more substantive.
Luckily they've made huge strides since then, and a lot of those people have come back around.
For your sake, I hope they make it into something special.
Where were all those hundreds of thousands back then?
They got 3k backers and 450ish k on nothing but words. If the Kickstarter would have been released today with the video streams it would have easily hit 800. I was as frustrated as anyone during the Kickstarter - but as Dullahan said - the project has came a long way.
As long as the Pantheon team stays relatively small, it won't need as large of subscription base to remain profitable.
And, it's opinion, but I still think there's a large population of today's 18-25 year olds that are waiting to be tapped into that no current market research could predict as there are no MMOs like Pantheon currently you could pull from or survey.
drivendawn said:
All you have said is that because there isn't one it means there is no demand for one which I would say is an opinion and not evidence.
I said, that there is no evidence there is a demand - this is true. That is not an opinion, that is a valid argument based on current tate of the market.
But like I said before, feel free to provide an evidence of that demand.
drivendawn said:
All you have said is that because there isn't one it means there is no demand for one which I would say is an opinion and not evidence.
I said, that there is no evidence there is a demand - this is true. That is not an opinion, that is a valid argument based on current tate of the market.
But like I said before, feel free to provide an evidence of that demand.
The evidence of the demand is all of the threads! We are craving for this style of game! This is the only game on my horizon.
Comments
Sell them lifetime subscription schemes; because a game cannot survive another generation after they hang out the "Youngsters Not Welcome" signs. Or maybe it can--EQ's been surviving (after a fashion) for the last decade--so start work early on the "Pantheon Classic" snapshot servers!
Sell them funeral plots.
Because I still have no clue why it would be slow paced ? The only thing slow paced about it was that you had to read all the time because it wasnt a graphic game and everything had to be described with text.
Which also limited the options in many situation, for example there was no positioning, thus there was no way to block the monster with a tank from hitting the mage. But most of the time it wasnt group play either anyway, so there wasnt really a tank around anyway and the mage had a lot better defenses than in a current MMO because they had to stand next to the mob just like everybody else, and their ability to kill fast had to make up their lack of defenses. While in Vanguard, the mob hits the sorcerer ? Dead pretty quickly. You really needed to be able to kite.
The games themselves however have been highly reactive. We used programs like TinyFugue to run around extremely quickly through any terrain we already knew.
The main thing I loved about my first graphic CRPG ? Finally I could solve quests by myself, without asking somebody for the correct syntax to do something.
To estimate/measure a demand, you look at the market. What products are therem how much they sell, how many same or similar products there are, you look at features and attributes of products, etc..
Do you see anything that would imply people like what Pantheon is focused on?
let the masses play the enormous selection of games catered to them, let us be the gaming version of the 3%ers
MMOs are extremely challenging to develop - and they're even more challenging to release in a stable and polished fashion. Then they need to keep it running and pay a live team for the effort. That takes a lot of money.
Don't get me wrong, I'd actually enjoy a game like Pantheon if it's done well. I loved a lot about Vanguard, too.
But I'm not going to pretend it's going to "take off" and appeal wide. That will never happen with a game on such a budget.
No matter how wonderful the design is - and *yes* I do like much of what they're doing - it will NOT appeal wide unless you cover it in sugar and chocolate.
In that very same way, a very attractive girl who's approachable will ALWAYS get a million times the attention of a very plain girl who wants you to work for it - and their "gameplay" is completely and utterly irrelevant. That said, the plain girl will probably have a more stable relationship - and have an easier time with monogamy (small audience)
All I'm saying is that Pantheon will NEVER be able to sustain "hundreds of thousands" of players. It will NOT happen.
But 10K-50K is within reach. It might peak higher than that, but sustained? No way. NO way.
That is why there are no "semi modern group oriented MMO like EQ or FFXI out there" in the first place.
Another thread to add to my list of threads to bump post launch.
You're setting yourself up for a big disappointment.
That said, I'm looking forward to trying Pantheon out - and if it can really reach 50K players sustained, that should be enough for some modest upgrades.
I doubt it can reach hundreds of thousands at launch, even.
Let this knowledge season you with rationality and intellectual honesty in your future posts on this topic.
I'm "intellectually dishonest" because I'm pointing out that your fantasy isn't necessarily the fantasy of everyone else?
1. That was 10 years ago. I don't know why you keep missing this, but things have happened in the MMO market segment in the past 10 years. Games have changed - and while you don't think that has affected the players - it has.
2. There's a HUGE difference between buying a game and sticking with it. I just said it might reach those numbers at launch - even though I highly doubt it.
We're talking about 50K players SUSTAINED - not copies sold.
It's not rocket science.
I know enough about Pantheon and games such as EQ to realize that these games are very, very different when compared to WoW. However, my logic is as follows: I currently hate what WoW has become, I'm one of the Vanilla and TBC crowd and I despise what the MMOs of today has become. Easy, accessible and shallow "worlds" filled to the brim with convenience-features and shortcuts allowing players to "progress" without having to put much time and effort.
I prefer the ways of progression feeling important with it taking time and effort to give the player a sense of accomplishment. I prefer having to rely on other players, encouraging community bonds and interraction between one and another.
So with that I'm probably going to check out Pantheon once it goes live. It has a high risk of being a bit to much for me but I'm willing to take that risk to experience something new and different (for me anyhow).
Tweet at me - Visit my website
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1588672538/pantheon-rise-of-the-fallen
Little more than 3K backers.
Where were all those hundreds of thousands back then?
Luckily they've made huge strides since then, and a lot of those people have come back around.
As long as the Pantheon team stays relatively small, it won't need as large of subscription base to remain profitable.
And, it's opinion, but I still think there's a large population of today's 18-25 year olds that are waiting to be tapped into that no current market research could predict as there are no MMOs like Pantheon currently you could pull from or survey.
Personally, I hope I'm wrong - but I know I'm not. People are what they are - no matter your fantasy.
But like I said before, feel free to provide an evidence of that demand.