"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
Every MMO released during the last 10+ years had the same problem. They usually had good programmers and artists, but shitty gameplay designers. Its norm when it comes to MMORPG, we have to live with it.
I know this forum doesn't get much activity, but another necro thread? lol.
Anyway, i think they have good game designers, but their "vision" could be better. GW2 can be summed up as if it's always in a mid-life crisis. It's never stable and always trying new ideas on the public, and it seems like they don't test out their new ideas first.
I think it was the new ideas that made the game so popular. What ever they're doing now, lack of players is not a problem, could be better but having more players is always something that could be better. If they stopped trying new things then people would complain about them never trying anything new and being stuck in a rut.
Some of them were good, but most were bad.
Living world is an example. It started out poorly but got better over time, then they morphed into a seasonal story, then abandoned it.
EotM was a great idea to alleviate queue times from the regular WvW maps, but then they abandoned that also.
Dungeons, Dynamic events, mini-games were also abandoned.
This is what GW2 has become. A combination of failed ideas and projects. They never follow through with their projects.
It became unstable, and most players aren't going to stick around for that, especially when compared to other MMOs, where they know they can rely on stability with their gameplay.
I never cared for GW2 - but I kinda liked half of GW1. But I never saw the people behind those games as competent designers. However, I do agree that they have some amazing craftsmen working for them - which is not surprising, as I believe many came directly from Blizzard.
I've tried figuring out the appeal of GW2 since I first tried the beta. Usually, when I try to argue that replacing the trinity with nothing - and when replacing vertical progression with skins - you end up with a less interesting game, I'm told that I simply don't "get it" - and that I'm not playing it right. Beyond that, I never cared for sports matches - which is essentially their idea of PvP. To me, PvP is and should be diverse and messy - and not for the faint of heart. It should never be 100% fair and balanced - as that will only highlight the people who suck and those who don't. As such, it's even worse for sore losers.
In the end, I think GW2 is completely and utterly flawed as a game design - but it's still quite pleasant on the eyes and I like the way it moves.
The very best part of the game was the concept of a scaled dynamic world - but then they went and implemented some of the most atrocious writing of all time. The timed repetitive "events" did absolutely nothing to immerse me in their world and what I was supposed to do.
PVP season 3 is kind of messed up right now with horribly overpowered condition spam.
I don't know if its just me looking at it through rose colored glasses, but the balance in spvp seemed to be better just after launch than at practically any other time. In particular HoT just totally messed with spvp balance, but even before then they tended to just over buff/nerf (and then leave the overbuffed/nerfed classes as is for months on end).
Best mmorpg ever made hands down. Nothing is perfect and yes it seems they are making some bad decisions lately. Also the worse UI customization I have ever seen. But they have more players now then ever so that speaks for itself.
I tried to stick around the game but those damn Fractals they kept on shoving up my face and abandoning regular dungeons made me quit.
I did some fractals to check them out obviously but they seemed to be filled with people that want to rush till the end over and over. Some of them also make you rush. I don't like being rushed.
There doing something right. WoW has ripped off so many idea's from GW2 it's starting to get pathetic.
- Easy cross server access from any server.
- Servers in a battle group now fill empty zones pre-WOD together. Kinda like how overflow works.
- Scaling. Dungeons scale to players in Timewalking, Proving grounds and Challenge Modes.
- The new zones in Legion will scale to player so you choose where to go.
- There was really bad attempts at the beginning of WoD to have some kind jump puzzels.
- Gorgrond zone and the Botani race.
- Battletags.
- Also in the development of WoD they were talking about have events. Doesn't seem like it made it in but it did in Final Fantasy 14.
- End game WoD apexis crystals dailies is very like GW2. Also how people farm them is really similar to GW2 as will. Both Champ farming and events.
There is probably more I'm forgetting. Point is the biggest MMO on the market see's the idea these guys are coming up with and don't just use some of them, but use a lot of them.
GW2 is the most cutting edge MMO on the market and the only one that does there own thing.
They do have a tendency to poorly implement some of these idea's. Long droughts of no content and the first year of them removing content was retarded. The game is just flat out gets boring sometimes. It is not for people that play 8 hours a day. The game general seems to suffer from poor management and direction.
Either way whether people want to admit it facts are facts. They do stuff that hasn't been done before. Blizzard see's this and improves there game from it. Blizzard has taking idea's from other MMO's before. But not like this. Reworking how there whole game works from another companies set of idea's
Believe it or not, this is a massive and incredible improvement over the leadership before O'Brien took over.
I left the game because the devs in charge kept crapping all over their own game, but when I heard that both the game director and WvW lead got replaced, I gave it another look and came back. Since Mike O'Brien has been in charge he has actually been making improvements to the game, and trying to reward players for playing.
O'Brien became lead designer in March. On April 19 they released the best patch I have ever seen from them. In this patch:
The fixed rewards in all HoT maps so that players don't need to dedicate 2-4 hour chunks of their time to get something out of it. They added a level 80 boost so players could jump right into the superior HoT maps. They added a shared bag slot so players wouldn't have to repurchase things like salvageomatics. They increased dungeon rewards. Added new daily fractal achievements. Fixed up the LFG. Added World-Linking to WvW (which has revitalized the poor wvw populations). Added provision mastery to WvW to give WvW players cheap access to food/siege and autoloot. Added 2 legendaries. Overhauled dailies. Revamped scribing so it wasn't so expensive. All that on top of the expected balance patch.
A bit later they also added reward tracks to WvW, so WvW players wouldn't have to farm PvE to get things they needed to WvW - with this same thought in mind they recently added HoT recipes to WvW vendors. They also brought back the alpine maps at players request, and started polling WvW players for what changes they would like to see. They already managed to implement some of the changes players voted on.
In the short bit of time he has been game director, he has made the best changes the game has seen yet. For the first time since release, it looks like the person in charge understands their game and is improving it.
That said the game is still absolutely riddled with problems (including the ones you listed):
Elite specs are so strong that build diversity is gone in pvp. Nearly every class has 10+ useless utility skills. Condi damage continues to be nearly insurmountable in 1v1 but nearly useless in large groups. Boon duration is so powerful that every good WvW group stacks it. WvW server lag is the worst it has ever been. The poor performance of the GW2 engine gets highlighted with the new HoT maps. The bad storytelling that plagued the base game is still an issue in HoT. HoT is still light on content - four maps and a 3 wing raid (those maps are the best in the game, and the raid is absolutely excellent, but this was a full priced expansion to a game that shipped with 25 maps and 8 dungeons, then got 3 more maps and fractals added in later).
I just hope that O'Brien is able to address some of these things. The game is better with him heading it, but it is still in a rough spot.
Being able to buy anything in the auction house with real cash means means it's 99.9% pay to win and you never know if your playing against skill/dedication or cash.
There doing something right. WoW has ripped off so many idea's from GW2 it's starting to get pathetic.
- Easy cross server access from any server.
- Servers in a battle group now fill empty zones pre-WOD together. Kinda like how overflow works.
- Scaling. Dungeons scale to players in Timewalking, Proving grounds and Challenge Modes.
- The new zones in Legion will scale to player so you choose where to go.
- There was really bad attempts at the beginning of WoD to have some kind jump puzzels.
- Gorgrond zone and the Botani race.
- Battletags.
- Also in the development of WoD they were talking about have events. Doesn't seem like it made it in but it did in Final Fantasy 14.
- End game WoD apexis crystals dailies is very like GW2. Also how people farm them is really similar to GW2 as will. Both Champ farming and events.
There is probably more I'm forgetting. Point is the biggest MMO on the market see's the idea these guys are coming up with and don't just use some of them, but use a lot of them.
GW2 is the most cutting edge MMO on the market and the only one that does there own thing.
They do have a tendency to poorly implement some of these idea's. Long droughts of no content and the first year of them removing content was retarded. The game is just flat out gets boring sometimes. It is not for people that play 8 hours a day. The game general seems to suffer from poor management and direction.
Either way whether people want to admit it facts are facts. They do stuff that hasn't been done before. Blizzard see's this and improves there game from it. Blizzard has taking idea's from other MMO's before. But not like this. Reworking how there whole game works from another companies set of idea's
I enjoyed GW2 quite a bit. I spent a lot of hours in the game and to this day, I think the GW2 Necromancer is one of the most enjoyable classes to play in Any MMORPG I have experienced.
That said:
When I played the game, I could never shake the feeling that they threw the baby out with the bathwater. What does that mean?
GW2 was designed around WoW. Not a clone like Rift and SWTOR. But never the less, far too many designs in GW2 were influenced by WOW's designs. It was obvious to me that GW2 designs were intentionally altered just so they weren't like WoW. ANET tried way too hard to reinvent the wheel when WoW's were already round. In some cases, it was so obvious, I used to refer to GW2 as "NOT-WoW Online" Because that is the game ANET designed. Whatever WoW did, they did it different to just for that reason alone......it many cases, it wasn't a good enough reason to change something. We got a lot of trade offs with GW2. WE got new systems that while not like WoW's introduced entirey new issues into the mix, and in many cases, mde theese trade offs just that. An even trade. Different didn't always mean better only different. GW2's non trinity approach did not really solve any of the problems with WoW's trinity. I remember all too well the "Heavies Only" requirements when looking for dungeon teams. And if you played a ranger, you were thankful for not getting kicked for showing up at the door.
So where does that leave us? WoW copies GW2. When GW2 is the poster child for "Anti-Clone" . Talk about a viscous circle.
Most every top game develoepr has great artists,great level designers etc etc,most lack leadership and a good game design that needs a LOT of pre planning.,
Where all games fail,besides LAZY cheap design is the game it's LORE design etc etc always seem to be randomly tossed together,then after release,more randomly tossed together ideas,often times not even sticking to the game's original design/ideas.
We can use GW2 as an example....super mario themed world,wtf does that have to do with GW's LOre? Answer...NOTHING,they simply oh cool let's do this,cheap and easy to pull off,yeah no kidding,game design like a tossed salad.Then i lol@ ideas that try to FOOL us...instead of half assed "just wing it" ideas we will call it a living world...lmao.
Who do these devs think they are trying to fool,gamer's with 3 days of gaming under their belt?
Of course it would take a lot of play time to see an entire game's cohesive design,however it doesn't take me long to see a game that is NOT designed with any cohesion, more like "just wing it".I guess i sort of don't expect a lot or most gamer's to see what i see,i have dissected games and learned how to design them and what makes them tick for MANY years now,where as most gamer's just see a hyped game and jump in blind folded,i actually pay attention to game designs.Not tooting any horn,just a fact of who i am and how i look at things,i pretty much dissect everything.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Comments
Outrage!
"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
Living world is an example. It started out poorly but got better over time, then they morphed into a seasonal story, then abandoned it.
EotM was a great idea to alleviate queue times from the regular WvW maps, but then they abandoned that also.
Dungeons, Dynamic events, mini-games were also abandoned.
This is what GW2 has become. A combination of failed ideas and projects. They never follow through with their projects.
It became unstable, and most players aren't going to stick around for that, especially when compared to other MMOs, where they know they can rely on stability with their gameplay.
I've tried figuring out the appeal of GW2 since I first tried the beta. Usually, when I try to argue that replacing the trinity with nothing - and when replacing vertical progression with skins - you end up with a less interesting game, I'm told that I simply don't "get it" - and that I'm not playing it right. Beyond that, I never cared for sports matches - which is essentially their idea of PvP. To me, PvP is and should be diverse and messy - and not for the faint of heart. It should never be 100% fair and balanced - as that will only highlight the people who suck and those who don't. As such, it's even worse for sore losers.
In the end, I think GW2 is completely and utterly flawed as a game design - but it's still quite pleasant on the eyes and I like the way it moves.
The very best part of the game was the concept of a scaled dynamic world - but then they went and implemented some of the most atrocious writing of all time. The timed repetitive "events" did absolutely nothing to immerse me in their world and what I was supposed to do.
A strange game, really.
I did some fractals to check them out obviously but they seemed to be filled with people that want to rush till the end over and over. Some of them also make you rush. I don't like being rushed.
- Easy cross server access from any server.
- Servers in a battle group now fill empty zones pre-WOD together. Kinda like how overflow works.
- Scaling. Dungeons scale to players in Timewalking, Proving grounds and Challenge Modes.
- The new zones in Legion will scale to player so you choose where to go.
- There was really bad attempts at the beginning of WoD to have some kind jump puzzels.
- Gorgrond zone and the Botani race.
- Battletags.
- Also in the development of WoD they were talking about have events. Doesn't seem like it made it in but it did in Final Fantasy 14.
- End game WoD apexis crystals dailies is very like GW2. Also how people farm them is really similar to GW2 as will. Both Champ farming and events.
There is probably more I'm forgetting. Point is the biggest MMO on the market see's the idea these guys are coming up with and don't just use some of them, but use a lot of them.
GW2 is the most cutting edge MMO on the market and the only one that does there own thing.
They do have a tendency to poorly implement some of these idea's. Long droughts of no content and the first year of them removing content was retarded. The game is just flat out gets boring sometimes. It is not for people that play 8 hours a day. The game general seems to suffer from poor management and direction.
Either way whether people want to admit it facts are facts. They do stuff that hasn't been done before. Blizzard see's this and improves there game from it. Blizzard has taking idea's from other MMO's before. But not like this. Reworking how there whole game works from another companies set of idea's
scaling looks good on paper, but it isnt worth the trouble
how many do you know, out of roughly 4 mio players, who have chosen to follow a higher level player?
i know NONE
use the resources for something better
I left the game because the devs in charge kept crapping all over their own game, but when I heard that both the game director and WvW lead got replaced, I gave it another look and came back. Since Mike O'Brien has been in charge he has actually been making improvements to the game, and trying to reward players for playing.
O'Brien became lead designer in March. On April 19 they released the best patch I have ever seen from them. In this patch:
The fixed rewards in all HoT maps so that players don't need to dedicate 2-4 hour chunks of their time to get something out of it.
They added a level 80 boost so players could jump right into the superior HoT maps.
They added a shared bag slot so players wouldn't have to repurchase things like salvageomatics.
They increased dungeon rewards.
Added new daily fractal achievements.
Fixed up the LFG.
Added World-Linking to WvW (which has revitalized the poor wvw populations).
Added provision mastery to WvW to give WvW players cheap access to food/siege and autoloot.
Added 2 legendaries.
Overhauled dailies.
Revamped scribing so it wasn't so expensive.
All that on top of the expected balance patch.
A bit later they also added reward tracks to WvW, so WvW players wouldn't have to farm PvE to get things they needed to WvW - with this same thought in mind they recently added HoT recipes to WvW vendors. They also brought back the alpine maps at players request, and started polling WvW players for what changes they would like to see. They already managed to implement some of the changes players voted on.
In the short bit of time he has been game director, he has made the best changes the game has seen yet. For the first time since release, it looks like the person in charge understands their game and is improving it.
That said the game is still absolutely riddled with problems (including the ones you listed):
Elite specs are so strong that build diversity is gone in pvp.
Nearly every class has 10+ useless utility skills.
Condi damage continues to be nearly insurmountable in 1v1 but nearly useless in large groups.
Boon duration is so powerful that every good WvW group stacks it.
WvW server lag is the worst it has ever been.
The poor performance of the GW2 engine gets highlighted with the new HoT maps.
The bad storytelling that plagued the base game is still an issue in HoT.
HoT is still light on content - four maps and a 3 wing raid (those maps are the best in the game, and the raid is absolutely excellent, but this was a full priced expansion to a game that shipped with 25 maps and 8 dungeons, then got 3 more maps and fractals added in later).
I just hope that O'Brien is able to address some of these things. The game is better with him heading it, but it is still in a rough spot.
Being able to buy anything in the auction house with real cash means means it's 99.9% pay to win and you never know if your playing against skill/dedication or cash.
Makes it a gutter game.
That said:
When I played the game, I could never shake the feeling that they threw the baby out with the bathwater. What does that mean?
GW2 was designed around WoW. Not a clone like Rift and SWTOR. But never the less, far too many designs in GW2 were influenced by WOW's designs. It was obvious to me that GW2 designs were intentionally altered just so they weren't like WoW. ANET tried way too hard to reinvent the wheel when WoW's were already round. In some cases, it was so obvious, I used to refer to GW2 as "NOT-WoW Online" Because that is the game ANET designed. Whatever WoW did, they did it different to just for that reason alone......it many cases, it wasn't a good enough reason to change something. We got a lot of trade offs with GW2. WE got new systems that while not like WoW's introduced entirey new issues into the mix, and in many cases, mde theese trade offs just that. An even trade. Different didn't always mean better only different. GW2's non trinity approach did not really solve any of the problems with WoW's trinity. I remember all too well the "Heavies Only" requirements when looking for dungeon teams. And if you played a ranger, you were thankful for not getting kicked for showing up at the door.
So where does that leave us? WoW copies GW2. When GW2 is the poster child for "Anti-Clone" . Talk about a viscous circle.
Where all games fail,besides LAZY cheap design is the game it's LORE design etc etc always seem to be randomly tossed together,then after release,more randomly tossed together ideas,often times not even sticking to the game's original design/ideas.
We can use GW2 as an example....super mario themed world,wtf does that have to do with GW's LOre?
Answer...NOTHING,they simply oh cool let's do this,cheap and easy to pull off,yeah no kidding,game design like a tossed salad.Then i lol@ ideas that try to FOOL us...instead of half assed "just wing it" ideas we will call it a living world...lmao.
Who do these devs think they are trying to fool,gamer's with 3 days of gaming under their belt?
Of course it would take a lot of play time to see an entire game's cohesive design,however it doesn't take me long to see a game that is NOT designed with any cohesion, more like "just wing it".I guess i sort of don't expect a lot or most gamer's to see what i see,i have dissected games and learned how to design them and what makes them tick for MANY years now,where as most gamer's just see a hyped game and jump in blind folded,i actually pay attention to game designs.Not tooting any horn,just a fact of who i am and how i look at things,i pretty much dissect everything.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.