City of Heros had the best class system, hands down - not only did the game have many different roles, it had many distinct ways to fill each roll.
Second best was Everquest - every class was unique in function and feel. People were able to use class abilities outside the box, working to accomplish things the original developers never imagined.
Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do. Benjamin Franklin
I actually enjoy games with classes that have very narrow roles and heavy interdependency, tends to make them play very differently making rerolling alt rewarding and enjoyable.
Over the years I've played it I leveled up at least 10 level 50s, and countless below that. Probably at least tried 35 of the 40 plus classes the game had across all 3 realms.
What was great was how differently one role (i.e. speeder) was between realms, Minstrels, Skalds, and Bards were all so very different.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
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Of the ones I've tried, I'll have to go with Elder Scrolls Online. It's the one closest to a class-less system that I've had the pleasure to play around with.
Reason I like it is because it offers versatility and customization. Wanna be a spellcaster in heavy armour using dual daggers? fuck yeah, you can make it work. Might not be an "optimal build", but it's possible.
I've always hated being restricted to daggers+leather, shield+plate or staff+robes in class based systems. I understand the whole holy trinity and rock-paper-scissors concept, but it ultimately just limits creativity for me.
EDIT:
Also just remembered Planetside2 (it totally counts, it's an MMO). Though it isn't an RPG, it does feature something of a class system, and I love the way it's done. It works for the setting, though it might not be viable for a more traditional MMO(RPG)'s
You basically just create a character, and you're then able to switch classes (or equipment loadouts) on the fly, from a terminal.
When you gain experience points you can choose to spend them on upgrading any feature on any class, which is nice. Spend some time gaining easy experience as a medic, and use the points to upgrade your infiltrator equipment. I like it.
Dark Age Of Camelot Before they tried to sell more copies of the expansions by making the new classes ridicolous overpowered. RIFT was great because you could make your character viable in so many different ways and it was fun trying out different specs.
I didn't like all the classes in EQ, but Necromancer and Druid are still probably my two favorite classes all time in an MMO. Warrior and Rogue were not much fun to play IMO.
Most of the classes in World of Warcraft were pretty fun to play in Vanilla. Paladin and Druid were probably my favorite classes there.
I like the systems that allow you to mix and match jobs / power sets.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own. -- Herman Melville
In a Classless sense, I'd say Saga of Ryzom. You could piece together abilities from all of the professions that you learned, and you could also use the components of those abilities to make your own abilities. Hands down, one of the most intricate systems that I have ever seen.
As for a system with classes, I would say FFXIV. The ability to be every class on one character, with some bleed over abilities is a huge plus, and the ease of changing class makes it very accessible.
Rift When out of combat, withen 4 seconds, you can be a tank, dps, healer, or support class. All the while, not needing an alt
To me this makes it among the worst systems. No real identity, you are just a big jumble of abilities and you can change them out whenever you needed to. Eliminates all consequence of your choices. Choices without a trade off = boring, to me.
Rift When out of combat, withen 4 seconds, you can be a tank, dps, healer, or support class. All the while, not needing an alt
To me this makes it among the worst systems. No real identity, you are just a big jumble of abilities and you can change them out whenever you needed to. Eliminates all consequence of your choices. Choices without a trade off = boring, to me.
I agree with you. It caters to exactly what is wrong with the industry.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
SWG pre-cu easy. Although, DDO wasn't too bad since they let you multiclass/pick feats/skills/stats/etc, had some really awesome builds and neat ideas there, but the Devs hated on people too much and started trashing it.
I dont like Class based gaming systems. I like them when i didnt fully understand skill based though to be fair
Classes do create many disadvantages I agree. They somewhat curtail your development, and force you to play a certain way you might not like. I think classes were made more for dungeons and PVE. They wanted to force the user in a role; like Tank, Healer, DPS etc. A class system is very team oriented in my opinion. I will say even in PVP classes can work for team PVP as well. When you look at the big picture the player, or user is being told this is how you must play. I feel this is wrong and needs to be reexamined. We need more freedoms and choices on how we want to play and should be able to customize are likes and dislikes.
I dont like Class based gaming systems. I like them when i didnt fully understand skill based though to be fair
Classes do create many disadvantages I agree. They somewhat curtail your development, and force you to play a certain way you might not like. I think classes were made more for dungeons and PVE. They wanted to force the user in a role; like Tank, Healer, DPS etc. A class system is very team oriented in my opinion. I will say even in PVP classes can work for team PVP as well. When you look at the big picture the player, or user is being told this is how you must play. I feel this is wrong and needs to be reexamined. We need more freedoms and choices on how we want to play and should be able to customize are likes and dislikes.
Class systems come from the beginning of RPG with table top RPGs like Dungeons and Dragons back in the early 80s. Not sure why exactly but that is where it all started.
I think classless systems just didn't get traction soon enough and as you mention the developers who already have class based approaching balanced well in video games are likely not exicted about having to rebalance and entire system all over again.
that said I encourage people to try classless systems I think they will find it enjoyable
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
I feel this is wrong and needs to be reexamined. We need more freedoms and choices on how we want to play and should be able to customize are likes and dislikes.
This statement interests me, as I too have been a proponent of choice in character design.. Do you believe that players should have 100% freedom in their options for creating their "class" or that loose guidelines be in place that restrict ridiculous combos but still allow huge flexibility?
..because we're gamers, damn it!! - William Massachusetts (Log Horizon)
FFXI almost hands down. The amount of classes, roles they can be, the variety of weapons they could each weild and the sub job system and being able to play them all on one character will likely never be matched. 14 is just a shell of what 11 was even when it was starting and will never be anywhere close to as fleshed out sadly because of the design choices.
Sadly being spoiled by something like FFXI or some of the older MMOs its hard to accept most modern stuff with most only having 4-5 of the very generic and simple classes and roles. It makes looking for a meaty MMO very difficult.
I feel this is wrong and needs to be reexamined. We need more freedoms and choices on how we want to play and should be able to customize are likes and dislikes.
This statement interests me, as I too have been a proponent of choice in character design.. Do you believe that players should have 100% freedom in their options for creating their "class" or that loose guidelines be in place that restrict ridiculous combos but still allow huge flexibility?
Even though I think it would be extremely hard to create it. I firmly believe we should have a 100% freedom based system. Your other alternative would be a refreshing start as well. I'm not totally in love with combos either. I do think sometimes they are fun but the word combo makes the user follow a strict path in order to compliment that combo. Like if you get said skill "pounce" for example then you have a bunch of other skills that detail how they are used. Some might say "effective after Pounce blah blah". You could have combos with no set restrictions. That might be the better alternative.
I feel this is wrong and needs to be reexamined. We need more freedoms and choices on how we want to play and should be able to customize are likes and dislikes.
This statement interests me, as I too have been a proponent of choice in character design.. Do you believe that players should have 100% freedom in their options for creating their "class" or that loose guidelines be in place that restrict ridiculous combos but still allow huge flexibility?
Even though I think it would be extremely hard to create it. I firmly believe we should have a 100% freedom based system. Your other alternative would be a refreshing start as well. I'm not totally in love with combos either. I do think sometimes they are fun but the word combo makes the user follow a strict path in order to compliment that combo. Like if you get said skill "pounce" for example then you have a bunch of other skills that detail how they are used. Some might say "effective after Pounce blah blah". You could have combos with no set restrictions. That might be the better alternative.
and in a classless system 'combos' is a statment that is irrelevant. I am not sure 100% of the audience here knows what we mean when we say a skill based system
The model of a skill based system is reality. The model of a class based system is fictional
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
My use of the word combos was actually reference to class/skill combinations (so I might have been unintentionally misleading).. As in, I have seen some very very bad skill choices made by some people in skill-based systems..
Let me elaborate on my question.. 100% freedom in character design of their "class" pretty much just means that the player chooses whatever skills they desire and define their own playstyle.. In this system, the strengths or weaknesses rest squarely on the shoulder of the player and allow them to tailor-make themselves to whatever role desired..
A restrictive guideline system uses a skill list with inherent prerequisities for a number of skills.. This system mitigates the chance of players becoming unhappy about accidentally becoming the "jack-of-all-trades, master-of-none" but still allows for a huge diversity of possible "classes"..
..because we're gamers, damn it!! - William Massachusetts (Log Horizon)
Comments
City of Heros had the best class system, hands down - not only did the game have many different roles, it had many distinct ways to fill each roll.
Second best was Everquest - every class was unique in function and feel. People were able to use class abilities outside the box, working to accomplish things the original developers never imagined.
Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do.
Benjamin Franklin
I actually enjoy games with classes that have very narrow roles and heavy interdependency, tends to make them play very differently making rerolling alt rewarding and enjoyable.
Over the years I've played it I leveled up at least 10 level 50s, and countless below that. Probably at least tried 35 of the 40 plus classes the game had across all 3 realms.
What was great was how differently one role (i.e. speeder) was between realms, Minstrels, Skalds, and Bards were all so very different.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
After that probably archeage.
Xiv after that I guess. But I have many issues with it mainly battle system related.
I hate being forced to make alts. So any mmo that has 1 character that can play everything gets a huge +1 from me.
Reason I like it is because it offers versatility and customization. Wanna be a spellcaster in heavy armour using dual daggers? fuck yeah, you can make it work. Might not be an "optimal build", but it's possible.
I've always hated being restricted to daggers+leather, shield+plate or staff+robes in class based systems. I understand the whole holy trinity and rock-paper-scissors concept, but it ultimately just limits creativity for me.
EDIT:
Also just remembered Planetside2 (it totally counts, it's an MMO).
Though it isn't an RPG, it does feature something of a class system, and I love the way it's done. It works for the setting, though it might not be viable for a more traditional MMO(RPG)'s
You basically just create a character, and you're then able to switch classes (or equipment loadouts) on the fly, from a terminal.
When you gain experience points you can choose to spend them on upgrading any feature on any class, which is nice. Spend some time gaining easy experience as a medic, and use the points to upgrade your infiltrator equipment. I like it.
Most of the classes in World of Warcraft were pretty fun to play in Vanilla. Paladin and Druid were probably my favorite classes there.
I like the systems that allow you to mix and match jobs / power sets.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.
-- Herman Melville
As for a system with classes, I would say FFXIV. The ability to be every class on one character, with some bleed over abilities is a huge plus, and the ease of changing class makes it very accessible.
I agree with you. It caters to exactly what is wrong with the industry.
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https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
~I am Many~
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
I think classless systems just didn't get traction soon enough and as you mention the developers who already have class based approaching balanced well in video games are likely not exicted about having to rebalance and entire system all over again.
that said I encourage people to try classless systems I think they will find it enjoyable
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
..because we're gamers, damn it!! - William Massachusetts (Log Horizon)
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
Sadly being spoiled by something like FFXI or some of the older MMOs its hard to accept most modern stuff with most only having 4-5 of the very generic and simple classes and roles. It makes looking for a meaty MMO very difficult.
The model of a skill based system is reality. The model of a class based system is fictional
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
Can't get my pen to write in this space.
Let me elaborate on my question.. 100% freedom in character design of their "class" pretty much just means that the player chooses whatever skills they desire and define their own playstyle.. In this system, the strengths or weaknesses rest squarely on the shoulder of the player and allow them to tailor-make themselves to whatever role desired..
A restrictive guideline system uses a skill list with inherent prerequisities for a number of skills.. This system mitigates the chance of players becoming unhappy about accidentally becoming the "jack-of-all-trades, master-of-none" but still allows for a huge diversity of possible "classes"..
..because we're gamers, damn it!! - William Massachusetts (Log Horizon)