To be clear, I never meant mmorpgs like EQ were vastly superior. I was actually speaking to early games on the NES where I started in terms of difficulty.
Okay, then i apologize if that is needed:P For reading into your post....I just think we are getting closer to having games made that are much better than anything we have seen before.
This is still early times in this industry to my way of thinking. Lot of growing pains still to come.
Things were like this in early MMOs. All mobs in EQ were artificially difficult enough that you had to think a bit. In World of Warcraft we saw the majority of mobs in the outside world lowered in artificial difficulty by large amounts. There were still certain mobs that were elite in the outside world meant for groups, but you could take them down solo with the right class, strategy, and combination of abilities/talents. Now WoW has all easy mobs in the outside world.
I would just like to note that imo early MMOs were pretty much all MMORPG's, not so much anymore... now we've got gamers who have the attention span of a gnat(ie.sport games, shooters, etc) signing up for games meant for gamers with the memory of an elephant(strategy rpgs) and vice versa because devs have deliberately blurred the lines, all in the pursuit of $$/numbers to keep their shareholders happy.
Technology advances---> more have access---> more are involved in it.
Not only that but you also get more options. Back then people would run around with the same kind of Walkman everywhere. Now you have various good companies so you can freely chose what you prefer.
I am gamer and I like to try out different games and I am having fun doing so.
The idea that I have to stick with 1 game and dedicate all my free time into it is nothing else but fanatism.
The time is simply divided among a bunch of games instead of one so I don't get how that is any different, unless you are saying that little ephemeral games don't entice you to spend a lot of time so you are happy that you don't have to use willpower.
MMORPG players are often like Hobbits: They don't like Adventures
Unfortunately OP is correct. I admit it is a snoozefest when I wade into 10 enemies in BDO and just aoe everything down. I too wish open world difficulty was more like EQ. You actually had to plan out your pull and the tactics to defeat the mob. Facerolling 10 mobs at a time isn't fun.
The sad thing is I find myself trying to find a game in which I can get some challenge (create my own tactics) through soloing dungeons. I had a bit of fun in ESO, the only fun I had in that game, attempting to solo dungeons. Unfortunately the loot tables don't appear to be improved for dungeon trash even though it is 10x harder than anything in the open world.
The MMO lite Kings and Heroes, is a pretty challenging solo dungeon crawler if you set it on hard or above and the rewards do scale even on trash, but it is very light on tactics.
I agree. I think that the aggro your appropriate mob system is broken and lame. Combat in MMOs is so routine that it is actually ridiculous. Because combat is the only meaningful activity and because it is essentially not used for anything but sinking time, you get hours of button pushing without strategic thought. Someone in one o these threads referenced not dying in combat unless you go to the bathroom or something and it's true.
How can there be a sense of danger without risk? How can there be a sense of adventure without the unknown?
I know for some older players they are looking for games that are not action combat because they want strategic combat that they can talk to each other while playing, and I can see how that has it's appeal and should have it's representative games. But if you have an action combat game the same old Tab Target combats should not be happening in that game.
MMORPG players are often like Hobbits: They don't like Adventures
As always this is so wrong. People trying to tie tedium into a game and then call it "challenge".
Well, now wait a minute, he said nothing that would really tie tedium into his statement. I can see at times that people talk about, say, large grinds and tie that into "challenge" (though in truth there is a challenge there, it just doesn't have to do with skill so much as patience and perseverance) but I don't disagree with him, I think a lot of people don't like challenge.
I can recall several times (and probably more) where I was in a situation where my group couldn't be successful the first two tries and people just left the group. Interesting enough, I stuck with it, as well as a few others, and we eventually triumphed.
Had the others just been a bit more dedicated and allowed the group to work something out they would have completed the mission, dungeon, whatever.
And yet what do you fall back on to make a point of? Sounds exactly like a raid/dungeon type area. That you need to move here at the right time, kill this thing at the right time, run over there when it is time....tedium.
No skill other than memorization is needed to do that type of play. That is the ultimate in tedium to me...teach each person in a group to memorize exactly what to do at exactly the right time to "win".
I think we are getting closer to having a real random, and hence truly "challenging" type of game play.
Imagine the same thing we are talking about, (or at least i am) a dungeon/raid type event. Where there is no script to follow. Each and every time you go into a area it has random things to fight and they have random weaknesses and strengths. No scripting and memorizing needed, just have a group, then have a random encounter generated to fit that group.
Then we can have challenge. We can play a game, not just memorize the steps in a script.
And all of this is because things change.
Now maybe this person did not mean challeng/tedium as i took it. Maybe you did not either. But the majority of the time when people refer to "the original audience, or old time games, that is really what they are referring to.
To me, most of the old type games, like Eq, were never that good. Remember how rare drops worked there? Sitting around killing the same camp/mobs for days sometimes to get those? Anyone that considers that type game play anything other than tedium i just can not agree with. Good riddance to any and all of those type games, and devs that think they are the way to make games, is my opinion
Most people can't even complete scripted raids. How do you think they would react to something truly challenging ? What exactly are you proposing ? I think EQ AI was more challenging than most games that came after it. Mobs could CC, stun, root, flee, call for help. What more would you like to give em ? The ability to always focus the healer first ?
Game difficulty can correlate with a games financial success? I don't subscribe to that.
In terms of MMORPGs I understand having to retain players as part of the business, but I don't recall people saying "It's too hard. I quit", "The crafting system was too deep... I quit". "I couldn't figure out the puzzle I quit". The problem is people equating redundancy, enduring repetitiveness, and absurd time gating to difficulty and challenge.
Bad design is bad design. Some staple "features" of MMORPGs are bad design at their core and in 2016 there are WAY more fun things to do than deal with them. Choices that were not available in 199x.
"As far as the forum code of conduct, I would think it's a bit outdated and in need of a refre *CLOSED*"
My goodness you're getting to be as annoying as that other guy who constantly creates threads about not spending money on games.
Post after post...People can't find even one game.
Post after post...People are not finding any challenge
Post after post...People are saying mmos are dying
Post after post...People are slamming every mmo that comes out in the sub forums
Post after post...more are mad about cash shops than not
Post after post...People say quest suck
Yet, the same vocal 10 people are saying everything is fine
Polls are constantly made about games are dying, cash shops, theme park vs. open world....Its always CLEAR in every one that players are not happy usually 60% or more !!!.....But the reply's come from the same 10 people, the majority are spectators and they completely disagree !
Maybe those "10" people don't agree with your hypothesis because they are all enjoying playing games?
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Game difficulty can correlate with a games financial success? I don't subscribe to that.
In terms of MMORPGs I understand having to retain players as part of the business, but I don't recall people saying "It's too hard. I quit", "The crafting system was too deep... I quit". "I couldn't figure out the puzzle I quit". The problem is people equating redundancy, enduring repetitiveness, and absurd time gating to difficulty and challenge.
Bad design is bad design. Some staple "features" of MMORPGs are bad design at their core and in 2016 there are WAY more fun things to do than deal with them. Choices that were not available in 199x.
Suppose a player felt it was too hard and quit and made an announcement. Do you really think the person would admit it was too hard for them? They might complain on the forums about aspects of the game but quitting because it is too hard is something that would make the player look like a loser.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
Game difficulty can correlate with a games financial success? I don't subscribe to that.
In terms of MMORPGs I understand having to retain players as part of the business, but I don't recall people saying "It's too hard. I quit", "The crafting system was too deep... I quit". "I couldn't figure out the puzzle I quit". The problem is people equating redundancy, enduring repetitiveness, and absurd time gating to difficulty and challenge.
Bad design is bad design. Some staple "features" of MMORPGs are bad design at their core and in 2016 there are WAY more fun things to do than deal with them. Choices that were not available in 199x.
Suppose a player felt it was too hard and quit and made an announcement. Do you really think the person would admit it was too hard for them? They might complain on the forums about aspects of the game but quitting because it is too hard is something that would make the player look like a loser.
The gw2 expansion forum was spamed with people like that. Apparently many people are complaining about it being too hard.
Game difficulty can correlate with a games financial success? I don't subscribe to that.
In terms of MMORPGs I understand having to retain players as part of the business, but I don't recall people saying "It's too hard. I quit", "The crafting system was too deep... I quit". "I couldn't figure out the puzzle I quit". The problem is people equating redundancy, enduring repetitiveness, and absurd time gating to difficulty and challenge.
Bad design is bad design. Some staple "features" of MMORPGs are bad design at their core and in 2016 there are WAY more fun things to do than deal with them. Choices that were not available in 199x.
Suppose a player felt it was too hard and quit and made an announcement. Do you really think the person would admit it was too hard for them? They might complain on the forums about aspects of the game but quitting because it is too hard is something that would make the player look like a loser.
Your point being what though? Realistically more people quit MMORPG games because of bad design choices (again some bad design are staples of MMORPG game structure) as opposed to some challenge.
"As far as the forum code of conduct, I would think it's a bit outdated and in need of a refre *CLOSED*"
Some people believe they are leet by dying 10,000 times on a boss to beat it. Others like same difficult raid boss that can be beaten by solo player and never get hit.
OP should try Vindictus. It is actually fun beating raid bosses solo.
Game difficulty can correlate with a games financial success? I don't subscribe to that.
In terms of MMORPGs I understand having to retain players as part of the business, but I don't recall people saying "It's too hard. I quit", "The crafting system was too deep... I quit". "I couldn't figure out the puzzle I quit". The problem is people equating redundancy, enduring repetitiveness, and absurd time gating to difficulty and challenge.
Bad design is bad design. Some staple "features" of MMORPGs are bad design at their core and in 2016 there are WAY more fun things to do than deal with them. Choices that were not available in 199x.
Suppose a player felt it was too hard and quit and made an announcement. Do you really think the person would admit it was too hard for them? They might complain on the forums about aspects of the game but quitting because it is too hard is something that would make the player look like a loser.
Your point being what though? Realistically more people quit MMORPG games because of bad design choices (again some bad design are staples of MMORPG game structure) as opposed to some challenge.
The point being, nobody would believe someone (a normal person) would say that sort of thing even if it were true. It would be incredible to hear someone say that.
How about this. Instead of saying bad design say different design. If you like X design and hate Y design, don't call Y design bad. It is simply something different from your ideal.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
My goodness you're getting to be as annoying as that other guy who constantly creates threads about not spending money on games.
Post after post...People can't find even one game.
Post after post...People are not finding any challenge
Post after post...People are saying mmos are dying
Post after post...People are slamming every mmo that comes out in the sub forums
Post after post...more are mad about cash shops than not
Post after post...People say quest suck
Yet, the same vocal 10 people are saying everything is fine
Polls are constantly made about games are dying, cash shops, theme park vs. open world....Its always CLEAR in every one that players are not happy usually 60% or more !!!.....But the reply's come from the same 10 people, the majority are spectators and they completely disagree !
Maybe those "10" people don't agree with your hypothesis because they are all enjoying playing games?
I have seen those posts of these one post wonders and can't help but think they were created by the same people with the same tired rhetoric to support their point of view or to create a thread to argue their view and offer it legitimacy. You never see these people again after they have served their purpose.
As for the majority of the spectators disagreeing how did you come to that conclusion? By being spectators their viewpoint is unexpressed and you have no evidence to support that they disagree as spectators by definition are silent about their viewpoint.
I loved Everquest and other games when I played them when they came out. I also love the games I am playing now. I think the bitter,unhappy and restless players with nothing to play need to examine their own gaming habits instead of deriding those that enjoy the current games and try to portray those that play MMORPGs now as somehow lacking. You are not getting anywhere by attacking the fans of this genre you are merely being divisive and pulling funding further away from any future games as developers notice the current mood.
MMO's aren'y dying. Not even a little. They are on the rise. That statement is true even if you remove all the games that falsely claim to be MMO's to get the slow people excited.
Also, the genre can't change because the majority vocal players (this forum for instance) are against it. If a dev does something new, you all get your panties twisted up stating it should be the same as such and such game. Thats why people want the old MMO's back. Back then, people didn't say shit because it was all new. So the dev's made what they wanted and it all worked well together.
If you want MMO's to improve. STFU and stop telling them to make everything the same. You guys asked for dungeon finders, easier mobs to avoid grind (most of you don't even know what grinding is, you think it's just the process of leveling up, not realizing that it means to stand in an area killing the same damn things over and over and over again to get a trickle of XP coming down).
To be clear, I never meant mmorpgs like EQ were vastly superior. I was actually speaking to early games on the NES where I started in terms of difficulty.
Okay, then i apologize if that is needed:P For reading into your post....I just think we are getting closer to having games made that are much better than anything we have seen before.
This is still early times in this industry to my way of thinking. Lot of growing pains still to come.
I hope you are spot on. Past few years have felt like a chain of let downs for me. Everything is cyclical so it's just a matter of time. At the moment I'm still waiting for a AAA western sandbox mmo.
MMO's aren'y dying. Not even a little. They are on the rise. That statement is true even if you remove all the games that falsely claim to be MMO's to get the slow people excited.
Also, the genre can't change because the majority vocal players (this forum for instance) are against it. If a dev does something new, you all get your panties twisted up stating it should be the same as such and such game. Thats why people want the old MMO's back. Back then, people didn't say shit because it was all new. So the dev's made what they wanted and it all worked well together.
If you want MMO's to improve. STFU and stop telling them to make everything the same. You guys asked for dungeon finders, easier mobs to avoid grind (most of you don't even know what grinding is, you think it's just the process of leveling up, not realizing that it means to stand in an area killing the same damn things over and over and over again to get a trickle of XP coming down).
Without releases being made the industry will constrict. At least in the west. Unless you count other games as MMO that aren't really MMO.
Go play WoW and raid Mythic Hellfire Citadel. After you wipe your 1000th time, then come back and say it's easy :P The problem isn't a lack of difficult things to do. It's that players just don't want to do the difficult things. They want to play the easy stuff.
That is a mighty high horse you are sitting on... Getting bucked will hurt like hell...
Anyway.. It is not that people do not understand the problem. It is that there is not one single right or wrong opinion.
You will find as many ideas on what is good gaming as there are people. Heck going by any commonly accepted metric... Pockemon:GO is the most successful game ever. Even if it is barley a game at best. =P
So in short... i wonder who it is that does not understand the problem.
OP, I assume you're the guy that made the thread saying that "hard" games aren't niche. Unfortunately you're not understanding what niche is which is something that only fits a certain population. Now, I'm with you on wanting some old school elements in a game since it felt more rewarding when leveling or getting items in that regard, but sadly old school gaming is not realistic for many people. Who a lot of us were 10-15 years ago when we first started gaming isn't who we are now, which could be having families/jobs/other responsibilities. The time one can invest now as compared to then is not the same. Now I said some, I'm not saying all. For whatever reason, some of us may have the same time as we used to then. But one also has to realize that the "hardcore" playerbase was always small even in the past and its only getting smaller. Pantheon is looking promising but for it to succeed it also has to accept the realities of the current market and make it accessible to a pretty wide audience. So there will obviously be some modern implementations alongside old school elements and honestly I like the idea depending on how it goes. I dont really think many of us miss camping rare monsters for 6-8 hours only for it to spawn and get it and not drop anything.
Go play WoW and raid Mythic Hellfire Citadel. After you wipe your 1000th time, then come back and say it's easy :P The problem isn't a lack of difficult things to do. It's that players just don't want to do the difficult things. They want to play the easy stuff.
So that one thing out of the thousands of things in wow makes wow a hard game? That is what you are saying.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
Comments
This is still early times in this industry to my way of thinking. Lot of growing pains still to come.
How can there be a sense of danger without risk? How can there be a sense of adventure without the unknown?
I know for some older players they are looking for games that are not action combat because they want strategic combat that they can talk to each other while playing, and I can see how that has it's appeal and should have it's representative games. But if you have an action combat game the same old Tab Target combats should not be happening in that game.
In terms of MMORPGs I understand having to retain players as part of the business, but I don't recall people saying "It's too hard. I quit", "The crafting system was too deep... I quit". "I couldn't figure out the puzzle I quit". The problem is people equating redundancy, enduring repetitiveness, and absurd time gating to difficulty and challenge.
Bad design is bad design. Some staple "features" of MMORPGs are bad design at their core and in 2016 there are WAY more fun things to do than deal with them. Choices that were not available in 199x.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Suppose a player felt it was too hard and quit and made an announcement. Do you really think the person would admit it was too hard for them? They might complain on the forums about aspects of the game but quitting because it is too hard is something that would make the player look like a loser.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
OP should try Vindictus. It is actually fun beating raid bosses solo.
Skill required.
If you are interested in making a MMO maybe visit my page to get a free open source engine.
The point being, nobody would believe someone (a normal person) would say that sort of thing even if it were true. It would be incredible to hear someone say that.
How about this. Instead of saying bad design say different design. If you like X design and hate Y design, don't call Y design bad. It is simply something different from your ideal.
Beside, who are you to say it is bad. lol.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
As for the majority of the spectators disagreeing how did you come to that conclusion? By being spectators their viewpoint is unexpressed and you have no evidence to support that they disagree as spectators by definition are silent about their viewpoint.
I loved Everquest and other games when I played them when they came out. I also love the games I am playing now. I think the bitter,unhappy and restless players with nothing to play need to examine their own gaming habits instead of deriding those that enjoy the current games and try to portray those that play MMORPGs now as somehow lacking. You are not getting anywhere by attacking the fans of this genre you are merely being divisive and pulling funding further away from any future games as developers notice the current mood.
Good Luck with Pantheon.
Definitely.
Also, the genre can't change because the majority vocal players (this forum for instance) are against it. If a dev does something new, you all get your panties twisted up stating it should be the same as such and such game. Thats why people want the old MMO's back. Back then, people didn't say shit because it was all new. So the dev's made what they wanted and it all worked well together.
If you want MMO's to improve. STFU and stop telling them to make everything the same. You guys asked for dungeon finders, easier mobs to avoid grind (most of you don't even know what grinding is, you think it's just the process of leveling up, not realizing that it means to stand in an area killing the same damn things over and over and over again to get a trickle of XP coming down).
거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
Anyway.. It is not that people do not understand the problem. It is that there is not one single right or wrong opinion.
You will find as many ideas on what is good gaming as there are people. Heck going by any commonly accepted metric... Pockemon:GO is the most successful game ever. Even if it is barley a game at best. =P
So in short... i wonder who it is that does not understand the problem.
This have been a good conversation
So that one thing out of the thousands of things in wow makes wow a hard game? That is what you are saying.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"