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Players & Chargebacks - Kakao Taking a Stand

SBFordSBFord Former Associate EditorMember LegendaryPosts: 33,129
edited August 2016 in News & Features Discussion

imagePlayers & Chargebacks - Kakao Taking a Stand

Black Desert Online News - After what some have felt are a series of missteps by Black Desert Online publisher Kakao Games, a segment of the player population has been initiating "chargeback" requests to credit card companies. Chargebacks effectively give the player a refund of money spent on a product, in this case, Black Desert Online.

Read the full story here



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Comments

  • MikehaMikeha Member EpicPosts: 9,196
    Could not have said it better my self.
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 43,975
    Booyah! BTW chargeback info is shared between financial intitutions world wide.

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • waynejr2waynejr2 Member EpicPosts: 7,771
    IF a game isn't as it was represented, the chargeback is legit. Here is the problem these game companies have: While they are hyping up their games early and often, they frequently say things that don't match the gameplay. That means the game isn't how it was represented.

    People have to remember, in America, there are laws covering this. Truth in Lending Act and the Fair Credit Billing Act. Be good consumers.

    Now using chargeback as a way to play for free might be considered fraud.
    http://www.youhaventlived.com/qblog/2010/QBlog190810A.html  

    Epic Music:   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1

    https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1

    Kyleran:  "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."

    John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."

    FreddyNoNose:  "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."

    LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"




  • DarkcrystalDarkcrystal Member UncommonPosts: 963

    waynejr2 said:

    IF a game isn't as it was represented, the chargeback is legit. Here is the problem these game companies have: While they are hyping up their games early and often, they frequently say things that don't match the gameplay. That means the game isn't how it was represented.



    People have to remember, in America, there are laws covering this. Truth in Lending Act and the Fair Credit Billing Act. Be good consumers.



    Now using chargeback as a way to play for free might be considered fraud.



    Wrong MMORPG more than anything are always evoling.. .Things change, mechanics, etc.... WOW has changed from night to day.... Some get rid of subs, some go Free to play etc..

    That is NOT legit...Run a game company, then maybe you will understand...This is another reason why less and less devs want to make MMO's gamers think that devs owe them the world... Give me a break, you only have your selves to blame for ruining the genre .
  • ShinamiShinami Member UncommonPosts: 825
    The main reason a game is hyped is to sell the product because developers know that as soon as money is spent on their products, it becomes hard for the consumer to get their money back on any serial-key based electronic signature item like online games.

    So much like our political debates, these companies lie, cheat, steal, and say just about anything to get you to spend, spend, SPEND! and once they take your money, they do one of two things:

    a) They forget you and leave you alone

    or

    b) They come after you for more money in different ways pushed to you by their game design and model.

    @waynejr2

    TiLA requires a loan to be in effect for it to be effective. Purchasing a product legally is defined as a transaction covering the sale of a good. It is not a load, therefore TiLA does not protect you in this case because the consumer willingly purchased the product and the developer was not attempting to loan you money.

    FCBA does not protect a consumer if they willingly charged their credit card and the right amount of money was deducted in the transaction. Also, the creditor has to be notified within 60 days of the billing statement and then they are given 30 days to respond.

    If you wish to start on this and you live in the United States, then a good practice on this thread would be to post the link to "Title 18, U.S.C Chapter 47 - Fraud and False Statements"

    https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/part-I/chapter-47#
  • tawesstawess Member EpicPosts: 4,227

    waynejr2 said:

    IF a game isn't as it was represented, the chargeback is legit. .



    Debatable.... In the case of Arkham knight for PC... Yes, it did not work on many systems at all and the developer admitted fault.

    In this case.... No... Not in any shape or form really. The game works in all ways that actually matter.

    This have been a good conversation

  • FrodoFraginsFrodoFragins Member EpicPosts: 6,050

    waynejr2 said:

    IF a game isn't as it was represented, the chargeback is legit. Here is the problem these game companies have: While they are hyping up their games early and often, they frequently say things that don't match the gameplay. That means the game isn't how it was represented.



    People have to remember, in America, there are laws covering this. Truth in Lending Act and the Fair Credit Billing Act. Be good consumers.



    Now using chargeback as a way to play for free might be considered fraud.



    If devs say they won't do something and a few months later do it, yes you have a case for a legit chargeback.

    Adding P2W elements to the game so soon after release is pretty damn shady. I'd definitely try to get a chargeback if I had bought BDO. Games like this are why I now wait 1-2 months post release before buying MMOs these days. You have to see how things shake out and get past the honeymoon phase reviews.
  • Thomas2006Thomas2006 Member RarePosts: 1,152
    waynejr2 said:
    IF a game isn't as it was represented, the chargeback is legit. Here is the problem these game companies have: While they are hyping up their games early and often, they frequently say things that don't match the gameplay. That means the game isn't how it was represented.

    People have to remember, in America, there are laws covering this. Truth in Lending Act and the Fair Credit Billing Act. Be good consumers.

    Now using chargeback as a way to play for free might be considered fraud.
    Just a fyi every chargeback you do rather it is legit or not is recorded and is on your record. When you goto get another credit card or bank account in the future all of this is looked and it determining if you can get the card or bank account.

    Like I said regardless if it was a legit chargeback or not it is recorded in your record. If you do this enough you will reach a point where card companies wont give you a credit card and banks wont let you have an account without fees attached.
  • waynejr2waynejr2 Member EpicPosts: 7,771
    Torval said:
    waynejr2 said:
    IF a game isn't as it was represented, the chargeback is legit. Here is the problem these game companies have: While they are hyping up their games early and often, they frequently say things that don't match the gameplay. That means the game isn't how it was represented.

    People have to remember, in America, there are laws covering this. Truth in Lending Act and the Fair Credit Billing Act. Be good consumers.

    Now using chargeback as a way to play for free might be considered fraud.
    Using a chargeback to gain access to a service or use a product for free is fraud, not "might be considered".

    The logic for how people interpret what a developer says in an interview and what a product promises to deliver are two different things. This is the very reason gamers get their panties in a twist over what they hear and what is actually promised, especially prior to release.

    Did the developer make a promise prior to release that they guarantee a game will have feature X implemented in a specific manner. OR did they hear the developer talk about a feature they plan on implementing that got scrapped prior to release and slap the "promise" on it themselves because of their own unrealistic expectations?

    In this case Daum/Kakao had explicitly said they may sell or change the way they sell digital bits in the game at some point in the future specifically with regards to reselling those cash shop items to other players.

    Players can get their f-ing panties in a bunch all they want. If this goes to trial, there will be a jury.  If the statements are given with intent and the consumer buys in on that basis, that is reasonable justification for the charge back.  This purchase isn't like a contract with a contractor building something. The jury will be directed to do is consider what a reasonable person would believe having heard what the dev/marketing person said.  Worse, if the company tries to frame it as you are, it might be the game company misleading and therefore fraud.  Credit card fraud.  A big legal liability.
    http://www.youhaventlived.com/qblog/2010/QBlog190810A.html  

    Epic Music:   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1

    https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1

    Kyleran:  "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."

    John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."

    FreddyNoNose:  "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."

    LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"




  • tawesstawess Member EpicPosts: 4,227
    waynejr2 said:
    The jury will be directed to do is consider what a reasonable person would believe having heard what the dev/marketing person said.  Worse, if the company tries to frame it as you are, it might be the game company misleading and therefore fraud.  Credit card fraud.  A big legal liability.
    Do try that and report back how it works out for you.... 

    But honestly... A: How many people can afford to take it to the court over big MAYBE...B: Have fun with your current and future banks after that..... 

    Face it.... Most clams will fall under "false" due to either incompetence or actual malign intentions.. 

    But on the flip side... Most companies would not bother to spend the money needed to actually process these spikes in charge backs. Easier to not dispute them and just ban the card/account. 

    This have been a good conversation

  • PhryPhry Member LegendaryPosts: 11,004
    FrodoFragins said:

    waynejr2 said:

    IF a game isn't as it was represented, the chargeback is legit. Here is the problem these game companies have: While they are hyping up their games early and often, they frequently say things that don't match the gameplay. That means the game isn't how it was represented.



    People have to remember, in America, there are laws covering this. Truth in Lending Act and the Fair Credit Billing Act. Be good consumers.



    Now using chargeback as a way to play for free might be considered fraud.



    If devs say they won't do something and a few months later do it, yes you have a case for a legit chargeback.

    Adding P2W elements to the game so soon after release is pretty damn shady. I'd definitely try to get a chargeback if I had bought BDO. Games like this are why I now wait 1-2 months post release before buying MMOs these days. You have to see how things shake out and get past the honeymoon phase reviews.
    Old saying, 'half a loaf is better than no bread' sure i could have saved money by not buying the game, but i did, and i had a hell of a lot of fun in the months that i played it, the game has now gone P2W and i'll likely never play it again, but, if i'd 'dodged the bullet' i would have missed doing all the things i did in the game, and i had a blast, seriously, and after having that experience of the game i regret nothing, except perhaps the fact that i have had to move on.
  • SpottyGekkoSpottyGekko Member EpicPosts: 6,916
    edited August 2016

    waynejr2 said:


    Torval said:


    waynejr2 said:

    IF a game isn't as it was represented, the chargeback is legit. Here is the problem these game companies have: While they are hyping up their games early and often, they frequently say things that don't match the gameplay. That means the game isn't how it was represented.



    People have to remember, in America, there are laws covering this. Truth in Lending Act and the Fair Credit Billing Act. Be good consumers.



    Now using chargeback as a way to play for free might be considered fraud.


    Using a chargeback to gain access to a service or use a product for free is fraud, not "might be considered".

    The logic for how people interpret what a developer says in an interview and what a product promises to deliver are two different things. This is the very reason gamers get their panties in a twist over what they hear and what is actually promised, especially prior to release.

    Did the developer make a promise prior to release that they guarantee a game will have feature X implemented in a specific manner. OR did they hear the developer talk about a feature they plan on implementing that got scrapped prior to release and slap the "promise" on it themselves because of their own unrealistic expectations?

    In this case Daum/Kakao had explicitly said they may sell or change the way they sell digital bits in the game at some point in the future specifically with regards to reselling those cash shop items to other players.



    ... The jury will be directed to do is consider what a reasonable person would believe having heard what the dev/marketing person said....



    And there lies the rub...

    The game developer will of course present the fact that 125K players bought the product and are still happily playing to this day. Those players are obviously happy and quite likely would laugh at allegations of "misrepresentation".

    So who is the "reasonable person" in that scenario ? The 75% that accepted the product as delivered, or the 25% who felt "cheated" ? :D

  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 18,719
    I have to admit that charge backs after playing a game for more than a few hours is something I have very little sympathy for - it seems sleazy to me even if you think you're doing it as a gerilla tactic to lash back.

    If a game changes significantly in a way you dislike months after you started playing it the honest thing to do is to leave and remember who they are and what they did. 
    "Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”

    ― Umberto Eco

    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 32,780

    waynejr2 said:


    Torval said:


    waynejr2 said:

    IF a game isn't as it was represented, the chargeback is legit. Here is the problem these game companies have: While they are hyping up their games early and often, they frequently say things that don't match the gameplay. That means the game isn't how it was represented.



    People have to remember, in America, there are laws covering this. Truth in Lending Act and the Fair Credit Billing Act. Be good consumers.



    Now using chargeback as a way to play for free might be considered fraud.


    Using a chargeback to gain access to a service or use a product for free is fraud, not "might be considered".

    The logic for how people interpret what a developer says in an interview and what a product promises to deliver are two different things. This is the very reason gamers get their panties in a twist over what they hear and what is actually promised, especially prior to release.

    Did the developer make a promise prior to release that they guarantee a game will have feature X implemented in a specific manner. OR did they hear the developer talk about a feature they plan on implementing that got scrapped prior to release and slap the "promise" on it themselves because of their own unrealistic expectations?

    In this case Daum/Kakao had explicitly said they may sell or change the way they sell digital bits in the game at some point in the future specifically with regards to reselling those cash shop items to other players.



    Players can get their f-ing panties in a bunch all they want. If this goes to trial, there will be a jury.  If the statements are given with intent and the consumer buys in on that basis, that is reasonable justification for the charge back.  This purchase isn't like a contract with a contractor building something. The jury will be directed to do is consider what a reasonable person would believe having heard what the dev/marketing person said.  Worse, if the company tries to frame it as you are, it might be the game company misleading and therefore fraud.  Credit card fraud.  A big legal liability.



    I think a jury/judge would side with the company in this case.
    Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb." 

    Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w


    Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547

    Try the "Special Edition." 'Cause it's "Special." https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/64878/?tab=description

    Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo 
  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 32,780

    FrodoFragins said:



    waynejr2 said:


    IF a game isn't as it was represented, the chargeback is legit. Here is the problem these game companies have: While they are hyping up their games early and often, they frequently say things that don't match the gameplay. That means the game isn't how it was represented.





    People have to remember, in America, there are laws covering this. Truth in Lending Act and the Fair Credit Billing Act. Be good consumers.





    Now using chargeback as a way to play for free might be considered fraud.






    If devs say they won't do something and a few months later do it, yes you have a case for a legit chargeback.



    Adding P2W elements to the game so soon after release is pretty damn shady. I'd definitely try to get a chargeback if I had bought BDO. Games like this are why I now wait 1-2 months post release before buying MMOs these days. You have to see how things shake out and get past the honeymoon phase reviews.



    I agree in that if a company says they will "never" do something and someone makes a purchase because of that then "yes" they should be able to get their money back. Thing is, Daum never said they wouldn't put certain items in their cash shop. At all.

    Just that there would be "controls if" they did it.

    Players really are their own worst enemies.

    Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb." 

    Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w


    Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547

    Try the "Special Edition." 'Cause it's "Special." https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/64878/?tab=description

    Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo 
  • KanethKaneth Member RarePosts: 2,286
    Iselin said:
    I have to admit that charge backs after playing a game for more than a few hours is something I have very little sympathy for - it seems sleazy to me even if you think you're doing it as a gerilla tactic to lash back.

    If a game changes significantly in a way you dislike months after you started playing it the honest thing to do is to leave and remember who they are and what they did. 
    Agreed. Any purchase you make there is an inherent risk involved. There's usually a reasonable return period, but once you're outside of that period then you're out of luck. MMORPGs do have an inherent risk involved because they evolve over time, and there is a chance there will be a change you don't agree with. Does that disagreement entitle you to a refund though? Unless you pretty much purchased the game within the last few days prior to the announcement of P2W mechanics being added, then no.
  • nikibishnikibish Member UncommonPosts: 44
    Looks like they are threatening ppl that chargeback with a BAN! IDGAF lol THEY SAID NO P2W and look what they are doing....they obviously DGAF so I got my money back. FK EM
  • ray12kray12k Member UncommonPosts: 487
    edited August 2016

    tawess said:



    waynejr2 said:


    IF a game isn't as it was represented, the chargeback is legit. .






    Debatable.... In the case of Arkham knight for PC... Yes, it did not work on many systems at all and the developer admitted fault.



    In this case.... No... Not in any shape or form really. The game works in all ways that actually matter.



    Claiming a charge back for this game would be legal, since they changed the fundamentals of the game.

    Hence you order a desktop and the merchant sends you a tablet..... Changed specs... ect... Even if you used the product you can get your money back.

    Their legal team reviewed the claims and most likely were unable to put up a solid case against the consumer.

    Not to mention its going to cost the company more to fight the chargebacks then to simply give the kids back their money and ban the accounts.

    RIP BDO...
  • PapasmervPapasmerv Member UncommonPosts: 63
    Just look at the game page header for BDO here on MMORPG: PayType=Buy to Play; Retail Price=$29.99.

    @SuzieFord: I think this needs to be updated to read...

    PayType: Buy to Play with both subscription elements(Value Pack) and Cash to In Game Currency via the Cash Shop.

    Retail Price=$29.99 + ~$30 monthly for 30D Value Pack + $40-400 monthly via the Cash Shop/Marketplace exchange.

    I'm not using the term Pay2Win because this whole issue has demonstrated the myriad of definitions people attach to it. The only component I'm highlighting is that you can use the Pearl Shop to exchange iRL currency to in game currency (via purchase and sale of Pearl Shop Items on the Marketplace). I'm not going to define if it's pay to win for the potential buyer, only that if they want they can either play the game and earn in game currency or buy it using Paypal/CC.

    Now if that was the description and what was sold pre-launch I wouldn't have ever purchased the game.

    It's misleading to keep Buy to Play and the single retail price listed. Perhaps "Various" and "Varies from $29.99+" would provide your readers with a more accurate view of the spending model in this game.
    What every dev/pub should stand behind: "We're committed to creating a fair playing field for all players. You cannot gain gameplay advantage by spending real money in [INSERT GAME NAME]."
  • LleithLleith Member UncommonPosts: 126
    What I see is a panicky developer in the midst of an unprecedented tailspin, who is refusing to back off of the single bad policy that got them where they are.

    I will neither be intimidated nor bullied by such blanket email threats - the amount of credit 'hit' from a single chargeback is negligible, and if said chargebacks were not both being used widely to get out of BDO and were not proving successful, Daum wouldn't have sent this email in the first place.

    As of last night, I escalated my claim when Daum didn't deign so much as to reply to it. We'll see what happens, but one thing I can assure you: this email didn't generate even a pang of fear; merely a good chuckle at Daum's expense.
  • DragnelusDragnelus Member EpicPosts: 3,503
    http://forum.blackdesertonline.com/index.php?/topic/108067-rise-of-the-amount-of-chargebacks-p2w-update/

    Daum is just trying to scare.. Its legal by so many other reasons and they wont ban cause they are to lazy or understaffed to check

  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 32,780
    Lleith said:
     the amount of credit 'hit' from a single chargeback is negligible
    If the chargeback is disputed and it goes into collections that will affect your credit score "fyi".
    Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb." 

    Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w


    Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547

    Try the "Special Edition." 'Cause it's "Special." https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/64878/?tab=description

    Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo 
  • observerobserver Member RarePosts: 3,685
    It's not worth it in the long term.  I wouldn't want to ruin my credit scores over this.
  • LleithLleith Member UncommonPosts: 126
    Sovrath said:
    Lleith said:
     the amount of credit 'hit' from a single chargeback is negligible
    If the chargeback is disputed and it goes into collections that will affect your credit score "fyi".
    You are dramatically overestimating the resources at the disposal of a bare-bones team in the midst of a corprorate transition. Were Daum devotedly investigating every chargeback - were they performing their due diligence - then my Paypal claim wouldn't have sat unanswered for 7 full days.

    So, they were presented, presumably, with an opportunity right there to 'head me off,' and the most they can manage is a vague, stock email threat? Once the Paypal judgment has gone against them, that's it - there's no 'collections' bit, laughable as the very idea is. 

    Again, they are farting in the faces of a bunch of flighty teenagers and hive mind 20-somethings, so it's no shock that some of you are inhaling and collapsing before them; a lifetime of hand-to-mouth, coddled existences has that effect. However, those of us with a spine will see this through, will get our money back, and will neither bow to ridiculous intimidation nor pseudo legalese from the MMORPG.com forum crowd.
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 18,719
    Torval said:
    Sovrath said:
    Lleith said:
     the amount of credit 'hit' from a single chargeback is negligible
    If the chargeback is disputed and it goes into collections that will affect your credit score "fyi".
    Most, or all, of the people making these ridiculous claims about how chargebacks, credit, and banking work have no idea what they're talking about. They're just making shit up and claiming it's true because they say so.

    Of course maybe in Europe people can charge back willy-nilly in some sort of financial free-love fest. But in the US and Canada there are rules that protect business from the expenses of frivolous claims and consumers from shady business practices.
    Hey Saul Goodman would find a way... they better call him :)
    "Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”

    ― Umberto Eco

    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

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