Gold sellers have always been popular and a lot of people have bought gold from sellers who say they haven't. This way players can buy gold or in game currency without going to gold sellers. Cuts down on gold sellers which is a good thing. As to morality in gaming that's up to the person.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
Gold sellers have always been popular and a lot of people have bought gold from sellers who say they haven't. This way players can buy gold or in game currency without going to gold sellers. Cuts down on gold sellers which is a good thing. As to morality in gaming that's up to the person.
That's just a rationalization about who it's OK to buy gold from.
You could just as easily say "cheating with console commands and hacks have always been popular" or "getting a cracked copy of the game from torrents has always been popular."
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Gold sellers have always been popular and a lot of people have bought gold from sellers who say they haven't. This way players can buy gold or in game currency without going to gold sellers. Cuts down on gold sellers which is a good thing. As to morality in gaming that's up to the person.
That's just a rationalization about who it's OK to buy gold from.
You could just as easily say "cheating with console commands and hacks have always been popular" or "getting a cracked copy of the game from torrents has always been popular."
So let's say it's not okay to buy gold from either source. Now what? Saying that it's wrong doesn't solve any of the problems.
Grind was originally there to keep players subbing longer.
People who have more time to spend will have a much greater advantage. There isn't much in the way of design that curbs the amount of affect spending great amounts of time has in the game.
People complain about pay to win, but the amount of influence that time has in a game, except maybe for a few pvp centric games, vastly outweighs the influence spending mass money has.
"Grind was originally there to keep players subbing longer."
I don't agree with that. That's just a cynical revisionist view of game play elements that need to be part and parcel of an mmorpg meant to last for years. The more positive way to refer to them is "long term goals and objectives."
People complain about various "grinds" in ESO, laughable as that may be to those who have played true grindfests... and ESO is "sub optional." Obviously there's more to it than just to "keep subbing longer."
The biggest grind complaints in ESO are about things like "needing to PVE in order to PVP" and the now defunct Veteran Ranks, although now there's grumbling about the CP grind that replaced it.
People use the word "grind" usually as pejorative, to refer to parts of the game they don't enjoy or the whole game once they become bored or burnt out. But they're talking about the very same thing many others still enjoy and don't think of as a grind. In fact they're talking about what gives the game a long life.
As to some putting more time into playing the game than others... well yeah, of course. It is as it has always been in this genre.
Like I said, there are many other types of games, some infinitely more popular than mmorpgs (FPS and MOBAs come to mind) where the "grind" or time factor is not in the competitive equation at all or at least it's minimal.
You think maybe those who see the mmorpg "grind" as unbalancing or unfair might just shuffle along to those other types of games. But no, instead they want to change this grindy genre into something that it isn't meant to be whether by design or by throwing money at it.
I stand by my analogy. This is hardly different than cheating yourself out of game play in SP games with console commands, trainers or other shortcuts.... why bother playing them?
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Thinking that actually playing a game "grinding" is worse than the complete destruction of the concept of "gaming" through pay 2 win is just about the most ignorant statement I have heard on the subject.
Typically (as in the vast majority) of p2w is based on providing short cuts to the grind and the grind made even harder because of it.
It's funny how your definition of grinding is what gameplay was before quick rewards and cash shops took in.
Nonsense. I'm not claiming that all MMORPGs from 15 years ago were pure grind. I'm only claiming that heavy grinding used to be more common in the industry than it is now. My definition of grinding is basically, being required to do something many more times in order to advance after you've already demonstrated that you can do it pretty consistently. What I'm after is interesting gameplay, not quick rewards.
? MMORPGs use to be more challenge ect... Hell in some of the older games you got exp from crafting. Heavy Grinding in most games comes from asian mmorpgs.
IMO if you dont want to play a mmorpg that is a pure grindfest play older games or rpgs.
I don't think grinds and time sinks in mmos were anything but a mechanism to keep subscription revenue coming in. What does it mean that the game was meant to last for years? I ask because it's good to get a reference with regards to how long progression should take and how much time activities to enable that progression should take? At what point are these things arbitrarily stretched out? I find it more likely that time sinks were instituted and grinds stretched out to keep revenue flowing in than I believe they did it because mmos are just supposed to take years to enjoy.
Well it was easier to see back in the days when they didn't have level caps or the concept of "end game" was introduced. There's no question that the financial model depended on players playing and paying for months but that was not a devious money making scheme (except by those who used it that way) it's meant to be "worlds" where you live alternate fantasy lives as opposed to other types of games such as story telling adventures that do have an end... mmorpgs are supposed to be endless.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
For me, the term "Grind" kind of equates with the word "Weed" Where a weed = an unwanted plant, a grind = an unwanted repetition.
Pretty hard to think of a way to give a game any kind of longevity with out some kind of a grind. Some grind is required to give a feeling of accomplishment and some no doubt is used to generate cash flow whether it be sub fees or cash shop items.
We can debate about payment models and progression models until the cows come home. I don't support business models or companies that I find distasteful as I'm sure most others don't as well.
I'm just glad there are a couple MMORPG's on the market that I can still enjoy.
Gold sellers have always been popular and a lot of people have bought gold from sellers who say they haven't.
The ongoing debate by the pro P2W crowd in this forum proves that point to be extremely accurate. Like I said in an earlier thread, the same people supporting this P2W practice now are the same people who've been supporting gold sellers all along while sneakily demonizing them behind their backs. And arguing against it would be an exercise in futility because their reasons for buying gold and justifying the practice in this instance is no different than the reasons for buying and justifying the practice when the gold is sold by gold sellers. I am actually quite shocked by it all. As far as I'm concerned, this whole incident marks a turning point in the evolution of MMORPGs. It would be sad if it wasn't so pathetic.
Nilden said: Everyone has to manage the same amount of time, not the same amount of money.
See, same thing - you either make money or play game.
It is your choice how to spent your time, that does not mean everyone should spent their time like you do. The no-lifer is no more entitled than the one with life and less spare time.
We went through this argument already several times...it is a moot argument.
This is just not true....... Since there is such a thing as making money AND playing the game.
You are making shit up off the top of your head and posting it because circular logic sounds good rolling off the tongue, but it has no substance and no reality....
Like when we argued over EVE's META being based on Multiple accounts and you replied with "people multi-box in WoW" The premise that Players in WoW multi-box is True, but the conclusion you reach based on that premise is false. EVE and WoW are indeed not the same with regard to the effect multiple accounts has on the individual player's experience in each game.
That's circular logic. You quoted something that is legitimate, but then you draw a conclusion based on it that has no reality. Yes there are players who multibox in WoW, but the meta in WoW does not revolve around it.
I have lost count of the number of arguments you post using this fallacy.
So let's say it's not okay to buy gold from either source. Now what? Saying that it's wrong doesn't solve any of the problems.
Grind was originally there to keep players subbing longer.
People who have more time to spend will have a much greater advantage. There isn't much in the way of design that curbs the amount of affect spending great amounts of time has in the game.
People complain about pay to win, but the amount of influence that time has in a game, except maybe for a few pvp centric games, vastly outweighs the influence spending mass money has.
Grind was not there to keep people subbing, The early MMOs were made by a handful of people and there is just a limit to how much content a handful of people can make.
Grind have always been about the fact that making grind content takes far less resources then constantly adding new content.
But honestly is both P2win and pure grind bad mechanics. If you actually makes things hard good players will pass the content way faster then bad players and the time you need to spend in the game to be competetive would depend on how well you play.
Take the first Guildwars (at launch, it has been severely nerfed by now), a good player could get a max level character really fast with zero grind and complete the main campaign in a week. A bad player would need months or even years to complete the same campaign.
Of course if you neither have much time or skill you were pretty screwed but so are people in pay2win who neither have much money or much spare time, which a lot of people lack both of. There are plenty of people with more then 1 job that still barely get their economy to work.
I myself have pretty much time for gaming and more then enough cash (I am certainly not rich but I could put $1000 a month into gaming if I wanted but I wont play pay2win games because I just don't see the fun in them).
The whole mentality that rich people should have better treatment in games then average players suck, we play games to get away from the real world and no matter if you are rich as Trump or dirt poor your gaming achievements should be based on your skill, not how much you pay or the fact that you spent 16 hours a day gaming.
Players that invest the time to grind and actually play the game have every right to any advantage the game may provide them within the rules.
Whipping out the credit card undermines the entire genre.
Yeah. I don't care that someone is paying for it, what I hate is that it just invalidates the achievement. Cheats should not be legitimized. The best looking stuff in the game should not be available by paying a fee. It takes you out of the game, and reduces the actual variability of the game world.
MMORPG players are often like Hobbits: They don't like Adventures
Players that invest the time to grind and actually play the game have every right to any advantage the game may provide them within the rules.
Whipping out the credit card undermines the entire genre.
Let's play a game. We shall call it "The Being a Grownup Game". Companies are not doing this out of charity. They need to make money in order to play for their expenses. Now, we have too many players bitching and moaning about every little issue. One of the issues is cost.
Some feel entitled to having a game for free. Some companies have responded to that but part of the response it adding a shop to purchase items for the game. It is a reality. Grownups know this. Children, even adult children, will complain and say stuff like it "undermines the entire game".
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
Players that invest the time to grind and actually play the game have every right to any advantage the game may provide them within the rules.
Whipping out the credit card undermines the entire genre.
Let's play a game. We shall call it "The Being a Grownup Game". Companies are not doing this out of charity. They need to make money in order to play for their expenses. Now, we have too many players bitching and moaning about every little issue. One of the issues is cost.
Some feel entitled to having a game for free. Some companies have responded to that but part of the response it adding a shop to purchase items for the game. It is a reality. Grownups know this. Children, even adult children, will complain and say stuff like it "undermines the entire game".
@laserit Visa hits for $16.99 @waynejr2 counters with American Express $21.99 @laserit crits with Master Card $299.99 @waynejr2 counters and.... Declined
In the early days of MMORPGs, it was common that whoever spends the most time grinding something stupid gets the best gear, the highest levels, or whatever. More recently, it has become common that whoever spends the most money gets the best gear. I'm not a fan of the latter, but the former is even worse. Publishers often prefer pay to win over grind to win because it makes them more money.
I'm sure you've heard it said that time is money. But if that is so, then why do billionaires get old and die? They had plenty of money, but ran out of time because it's not the same thing as money. Rather, time can be converted to money (get a job), but not the other way around. Time, not money, is the precious resource in life.
Pay to win tries to lay claim on your money. It's reasonable to dislike that. But grind to win tries to claim your time, which is even worse. Ultimately, either of them is a pretty good reason to quit a game and find another. But grind to win is more insidious and harder to spot, as it's much easier to keep track of exactly how much money something costs than how much time.
All of this goes out the window if the activity is fun in itself, of course. If you're having fun, it's not grinding. Not just hoping that it will be fun to eventually have what you're grinding for, but doing an activity for fun that you might still do even if it gave no experience or loot. Doing what you like to do and getting in-game rewards as a bonus is the ideal situation, of course, but it's hard to design that into a game very consistently.
I don't understand the argument at all. Grind is the disease that microtransactions cure and it is impossible to have one without the other, otherwise there would be no point for players to purchase the item.
Grind was not there to keep people subbing, The early MMOs were made by a handful of people and there is just a limit to how much content a handful of people can make.
Grind have always been about the fact that making grind content takes far less resources then constantly adding new content.
I'm not buying that. You're basically saying that because it was early on in the genre they couldn't make very much content. Then because of that they had to make it really grindy so people would continue playing.
Why did they need to make people continue playing? Why not just make content and then when people were done acknowledge that they would go play something else for a while, like they did with offline RPGs? I think they saw a way to keep people paying without having to spend the money and effort on new content.
In any event it's not a very good excuse to make poor content or very little for it and still keep charging monthly for it.
It is still like that. Making one dungeon and have people run it a hundred times to get that specific drop takes far less resources then 100 dungeons you only need to run once if you want an extreme example.
The reason Meridian 59 & UO had monthly fees were mainly due to the high prices of bandwidth at the time, servers & bandwidth were not cheap in the 90s. Those prices went down after that and most of the monthly fees have went to profit in the 00s.
But the main reason for the grind have always been that quality content cost a lot of resources and if you can have people repeating it the games becomes a lot cheaper to make and run. It is pure economics.
Exactly how long time it took to reach max level have always been based on what the devs think the gamers want. Now it is way faster then the early games and I guess that is what people want.
every game should have a server where anybody can log on, max their toon out and put on all the best gear. then we could all stand around the main city hub talking about how great we are at the game. and how actually playing the game is for noobs and tryhards.
Players that invest the time to grind and actually play the game have every right to any advantage the game may provide them within the rules.
Whipping out the credit card undermines the entire genre.
Let's play a game. We shall call it "The Being a Grownup Game". Companies are not doing this out of charity. They need to make money in order to play for their expenses. Now, we have too many players bitching and moaning about every little issue. One of the issues is cost.
Some feel entitled to having a game for free. Some companies have responded to that but part of the response it adding a shop to purchase items for the game. It is a reality. Grownups know this. Children, even adult children, will complain and say stuff like it "undermines the entire game".
Let's play chess. I pay the tournament organizer $200 because they need help paying the rent. If I didn't there would be no tournament. In consideration for my donation I get an extra queen.
Nah... the game has not been undermined at all.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
GeezerGamer said:
This is just not true....... Since there is such a thing as making money AND playing the game.
Of course it is true, one cannot be at their job and playing the game at the same time, besides some outliers cases like people who play games for living.
Do you know why you are losing all "P2W" arguments, just like the one about EVE and then retort to diatribe and claiming yourself a "winner"?
Whole "P2W" has no basis in rationale, it is purely a matter of personal bias. You believe no-lifers should have upper hand but there is no way to back that up rationally. The concept is based on idea of "level playing field" that does not exist and does not work in a world we live in.
Want proof/example?
Iselin said: What's amusing is watching you guys totally miss the point that good games create their own universes with their own rules, logic and morality and that injecting your preferred RL shortcuts into them are alien to the game's internal consistency and integrity.
One has create an imaginary universe where such concept could exist. Completely out of touch with reality - the poster and concept itself.
But w/e, I still think you are just a bunch of poor cheapskates that want drag down everyone onto their level...
There are different kinds of grinding. Back in the day i used to play rappelz and people would grind mobs to get the pet cards. At the time Yetis were the bomb and people would spend several weeks @ several hours a day just killing yetis. Of course eventually yetis were put i the cash shop at least for a limited time. I can not stand farming or grinding mobs after about 1 hour i am done. Questing and what not I do not consider grinding. As far as gear goes running raids / what not over and over or just playing PVP over and over is a grind. I wish games were more skill based. For example in golf star mobile you could grind for 5+ years and not be fully geared or you could literally spend a couple THOUSAND and be geared instantly. Non payers have absolutely no chance to compete with people with big wallets. No amount of skill can make up for being out hit by 100 yards. I still think pay to win is worse. With grind to win at least everyone is on a level field.
A terrible game with a level playing field is still a terrible game. I want games that are fun to play. If a game is awful, tacking on several additional reasons why it is awful does no harm, and may actually help the situation if it's more obvious that I should avoid it.
If a game is terrible, then don't play it.. The end.. Adding pay-to-win doesn't make it any less awful, it just sticks a band-aid on a gushing wound and says "that'll do for now".. Bad is bad and nothing will help a game if it is..
And yes, fun is the number one reason to play a game.. Which only further illustrates the point of avoiding a bad game and pay-to-win.. Its a grindfest thats fun? Cool.. play it.. Its a grindfest that sucks? Uninstall and post on MMORPG.com about how it blows..
..because we're gamers, damn it!! - William Massachusetts (Log Horizon)
GeezerGamer said:
This is just not true....... Since there is such a thing as making money AND playing the game.
Of course it is true, one cannot be at their job and playing the game at the same time, besides some outliers cases like people who play games for living.
Do you know why you are losing all "P2W" arguments, just like the one about EVE and then retort to diatribe and claiming yourself a "winner" like in post above?
Whole "P2W" has no basis in rationale, it is purely a matter of personal bias. You believe no-lifers should have upper hand but there is no way to back that up rationally. The concept is based on idea of "even playing field" that does not exist and does not work in a world we live in.
Want proof/example?
Iselin said: What's amusing is watching you guys totally miss the point that good games create their own universes with their own rules, logic and morality and that injecting your preferred RL shortcuts into them are alien to the game's internal consistency and integrity.
One has create an imaginary universe where such concept could exist. Completely out of touch with reality - the poster and concept itself.
But w/e, I still think you are just a bunch of poor cheapskates that want drag down everyone onto their level...
You're so fucking brainwashed you don't even see how trivial your core argument is.
Yes Virginia, you can buy an advantage with cash everywhere and for everything. But so what? The interesting questions that those who are not too far gone are discussing are:
Should they allow this in games? What does it do to the games where it's allowed?
So keep on drinking that kool-aid and totally missing the point.
And BTW, the act of allowing it or not allowing creates that "imaginary universe."
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Both suck, when an MMO can figure out why progression does not have to equal grind. And that people will buy things that don't offer power advantage. Only then will we have an MMO worth playing.
Now Playing: Bless / Summoners War Looking forward to: Crowfall / Lost Ark / Black Desert Mobile
every game should have a server where anybody can log on, max their toon out and put on all the best gear. then we could all stand around the main city hub talking about how great we are at the game. and how actually playing the game is for noobs and tryhards.
The sad thing is you could probably charge $10,000 a head and make money on that idea.
"You CAN'T buy ships for RL money." - MaxBacon
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Comments
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
You could just as easily say "cheating with console commands and hacks have always been popular" or "getting a cracked copy of the game from torrents has always been popular."
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
I don't agree with that. That's just a cynical revisionist view of game play elements that need to be part and parcel of an mmorpg meant to last for years. The more positive way to refer to them is "long term goals and objectives."
People complain about various "grinds" in ESO, laughable as that may be to those who have played true grindfests... and ESO is "sub optional." Obviously there's more to it than just to "keep subbing longer."
The biggest grind complaints in ESO are about things like "needing to PVE in order to PVP" and the now defunct Veteran Ranks, although now there's grumbling about the CP grind that replaced it.
People use the word "grind" usually as pejorative, to refer to parts of the game they don't enjoy or the whole game once they become bored or burnt out. But they're talking about the very same thing many others still enjoy and don't think of as a grind. In fact they're talking about what gives the game a long life.
As to some putting more time into playing the game than others... well yeah, of course. It is as it has always been in this genre.
Like I said, there are many other types of games, some infinitely more popular than mmorpgs (FPS and MOBAs come to mind) where the "grind" or time factor is not in the competitive equation at all or at least it's minimal.
You think maybe those who see the mmorpg "grind" as unbalancing or unfair might just shuffle along to those other types of games. But no, instead they want to change this grindy genre into something that it isn't meant to be whether by design or by throwing money at it.
I stand by my analogy. This is hardly different than cheating yourself out of game play in SP games with console commands, trainers or other shortcuts.... why bother playing them?
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Typically (as in the vast majority) of p2w is based on providing short cuts to the grind and the grind made even harder because of it.
OP ... get your view of reality in line.
You stay sassy!
IMO if you dont want to play a mmorpg that is a pure grindfest play older games or rpgs.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Pretty hard to think of a way to give a game any kind of longevity with out some kind of a grind. Some grind is required to give a feeling of accomplishment and some no doubt is used to generate cash flow whether it be sub fees or cash shop items.
We can debate about payment models and progression models until the cows come home. I don't support business models or companies that I find distasteful as I'm sure most others don't as well.
I'm just glad there are a couple MMORPG's on the market that I can still enjoy.
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
The ongoing debate by the pro P2W crowd in this forum proves that point to be extremely accurate. Like I said in an earlier thread, the same people supporting this P2W practice now are the same people who've been supporting gold sellers all along while sneakily demonizing them behind their backs. And arguing against it would be an exercise in futility because their reasons for buying gold and justifying the practice in this instance is no different than the reasons for buying and justifying the practice when the gold is sold by gold sellers. I am actually quite shocked by it all. As far as I'm concerned, this whole incident marks a turning point in the evolution of MMORPGs. It would be sad if it wasn't so pathetic.
Since there is such a thing as making money AND playing the game.
You are making shit up off the top of your head and posting it because circular logic sounds good rolling off the tongue, but it has no substance and no reality....
Like when we argued over EVE's META being based on Multiple accounts and you replied with "people multi-box in WoW" The premise that Players in WoW multi-box is True, but the conclusion you reach based on that premise is false. EVE and WoW are indeed not the same with regard to the effect multiple accounts has on the individual player's experience in each game.
That's circular logic. You quoted something that is legitimate, but then you draw a conclusion based on it that has no reality. Yes there are players who multibox in WoW, but the meta in WoW does not revolve around it.
I have lost count of the number of arguments you post using this fallacy.
Grind have always been about the fact that making grind content takes far less resources then constantly adding new content.
But honestly is both P2win and pure grind bad mechanics. If you actually makes things hard good players will pass the content way faster then bad players and the time you need to spend in the game to be competetive would depend on how well you play.
Take the first Guildwars (at launch, it has been severely nerfed by now), a good player could get a max level character really fast with zero grind and complete the main campaign in a week. A bad player would need months or even years to complete the same campaign.
Of course if you neither have much time or skill you were pretty screwed but so are people in pay2win who neither have much money or much spare time, which a lot of people lack both of. There are plenty of people with more then 1 job that still barely get their economy to work.
I myself have pretty much time for gaming and more then enough cash (I am certainly not rich but I could put $1000 a month into gaming if I wanted but I wont play pay2win games because I just don't see the fun in them).
The whole mentality that rich people should have better treatment in games then average players suck, we play games to get away from the real world and no matter if you are rich as Trump or dirt poor your gaming achievements should be based on your skill, not how much you pay or the fact that you spent 16 hours a day gaming.
Whipping out the credit card undermines the entire genre.
Let's play a game. We shall call it "The Being a Grownup Game". Companies are not doing this out of charity. They need to make money in order to play for their expenses. Now, we have too many players bitching and moaning about every little issue. One of the issues is cost.
Some feel entitled to having a game for free. Some companies have responded to that but part of the response it adding a shop to purchase items for the game. It is a reality. Grownups know this. Children, even adult children, will complain and say stuff like it "undermines the entire game".
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
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Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
I don't understand the argument at all. Grind is the disease that microtransactions cure and it is impossible to have one without the other, otherwise there would be no point for players to purchase the item.
The reason Meridian 59 & UO had monthly fees were mainly due to the high prices of bandwidth at the time, servers & bandwidth were not cheap in the 90s. Those prices went down after that and most of the monthly fees have went to profit in the 00s.
But the main reason for the grind have always been that quality content cost a lot of resources and if you can have people repeating it the games becomes a lot cheaper to make and run. It is pure economics.
Exactly how long time it took to reach max level have always been based on what the devs think the gamers want. Now it is way faster then the early games and I guess that is what people want.
Nah... the game has not been undermined at all.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Do you know why you are losing all "P2W" arguments, just like the one about EVE and then retort to diatribe and claiming yourself a "winner"?
Whole "P2W" has no basis in rationale, it is purely a matter of personal bias. You believe no-lifers should have upper hand but there is no way to back that up rationally. The concept is based on idea of "level playing field" that does not exist and does not work in a world we live in.
Want proof/example?
One has create an imaginary universe where such concept could exist. Completely out of touch with reality - the poster and concept itself.
But w/e, I still think you are just a bunch of poor cheapskates that want drag down everyone onto their level...
And yes, fun is the number one reason to play a game.. Which only further illustrates the point of avoiding a bad game and pay-to-win.. Its a grindfest thats fun? Cool.. play it.. Its a grindfest that sucks? Uninstall and post on MMORPG.com about how it blows..
..because we're gamers, damn it!! - William Massachusetts (Log Horizon)
Yes Virginia, you can buy an advantage with cash everywhere and for everything. But so what? The interesting questions that those who are not too far gone are discussing are:
Should they allow this in games?
What does it do to the games where it's allowed?
So keep on drinking that kool-aid and totally missing the point.
And BTW, the act of allowing it or not allowing creates that "imaginary universe."
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Looking forward to: Crowfall / Lost Ark / Black Desert Mobile
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/It wasn't I died of boredom. So you in the next life.
"This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."