5 people did make Guildwars, 3 guys made all the quests and the engine for that matter.
Even thinking this is beyond insanity.
I am sorry Loke I respect your opinions. But it seems you dont grasp what effort and work goes into game production, at all.
It is hard but possible for 3 people to make engine, maybe even quests. Let suppose so.
So that leaves one guy doing all the concept art , 3d models ,animation , fx , promotional animation , design , website , texturing , topography , cutscenes , rigging. It would only take him 20 years (even for all the rendering if he did every character himself) and they would probably find him dead. Since its thing done by team of at least 10 people ( and that is for crappy looking indie game , not good looking one )
And than another guy did all the sound, sound effects , music , voice acting, syncing
They all pitched in writing what amounts to few books worth of text.
And yea, the game had no QA or bug testing. No office manager , no support , no business management or accounting.
And that is bare minimum.
So please, please check your sources and dont post misinformation's... Its very distracting
Fine, ANET had 5 people who worked on the game up to launch, they did hire in some additional resources, like Jeremy Soul for the music and they also had a few guys handling accounting and so on (which I certainly wouldn't count in the statement "made the game" since all companies need a few people like that no matter what your company work with). Also, once the game was released they did hire in more people including support, community manager and so on, but again, those people didn't actually make the game. Running cost is not included in development. The Eye of the north expansion had several times the original crew making it.
My point was and still is: Guildwars was originally made for peanuts compared to most game and was still successful. The original CCP team that made Eve was also a handful people. That was a few years ago though and if GW was made today they would probably have needed twice that many devs but that would still be indie money.
You can certainly not run a released MMO with as few people though but that is a very different matter, just customer support takes a lot of people.
When SWG was made people were shocked that SOE had about 30 people working on it which was exceptional at the time.
It is certainly easier to make a good game with 200 people then 10 but there is a difference between hard and impossible.
EQs budget (until launch) was something between $8-9M (depending on the source), Wows was $60, WAR & AoC around $80M and TOR was somewhere over $100M. More budget does not necessarily mean a better game.
OP must have really quit since he has never mentioned Chronicles of Elyria and is out of the loop.
The same response people who think MMOs arent dead and havent ben for awhile the 'you obviously havent played/seen (fill in next game they personally want to play which is usually overhyped trash here).
MMOs arent dead but the fact that you have to go and play stuff 12-15 years old to have any sort of 'fun' shows theyre not doing well and everything released in the past 5 or 6 years and everything on the horizon isnt going to be any good.
I would hope that people would have learned their lessons with the fact that every MM O that has come laong recently has followed the same pattern. GW 2 and ESO might be slightly different because they were the last two made by a 'AAA" company but GW2 was supposed to tbe the actual WoW killer game. But as it unfolded the hye died and reality set in and that was the one game that people actually had a sensible outlook on. Yea there were the rabid fanboys but many saw reality. ESO was mostly hated on, and for good reason. It also has the distinction of being one of the few games to actually improve after release. But it still doesnt have enough features people are looking for to be considered an out of the park must play MMO.
People that continue to hang their hats on promises and dreams and look forward to every hyped game that is coming along are technically insane because theyre tryying to see soemthing that hanst changed, wont change, and repeating it over and over again and will as the future will prove getting the same result.
Its all about low content and pay to win. The genre filling the gap right now is the so called 'survival' game where you have small pop servers and 'sand boxy' elements, which mostly consist of building stuff, exploring a map devoid of NPCs or quests, and killing other players. Which become real boring real fast unless youre into RP and can find some decent RP servers, or are the borderline psychotic who loves rolling around just killing people. Other than that these games offer nothing. Theyre 'fun' for awhile until you realize what they are and theyre all basically the same. ARK is SLIGHTLY different and thats because it has a billion mods that can take some time to learn and add some dimensions to the game, and it has a couple decent maps now as well that at least change the scenery, but its still dinosaurs, building stuff, killing people, and RP just with a different shell.
Also people commenting about the grind or the whatever that might take too long. Thats why MMOs died and are failing left and right. The new generations wants everything now and they want it in their games too. So the elements of what makes an MMO decent have been changed. Thats why these survival type games and lobby games are working you do a map for awhile then start over. So an arena and start another one. You might keep a character you might even advance it as you go along but you are building anything long lasting in a persistent world, which is what MMOs were all about. Sure you might recognize a players name or a characters name but its not the same as seeing them from day to day in the same game world. Some people might think that is over rated but it is basically the core of an MMO.
In any event MMOs are in fact dead and all the new ones coming out are either not going to come out at all, will come ot with a fraction of what people think they will, will be pay to win from the get go or in the least pay to even have a chance at competing. Will have little to no lore, and will require players to invent their own 'content' because they didnt have the money or the ability to make content themselves.
... And now for years there are no MMOs worth playing. And few semi Indie MMOs that are being made...how should i break it to you guys...If a AAA company with 300 million dollars and top notch teams can not make good MMO , what you expect from few part time students on a shoestring budget ? I tell you what - Not next WOW or EQ. I really hate to say that , but thats it for this genre ... ....
That is a bit unfair. Firstly, you can fail anything no matter how much money you put into it (want proof? One word: "Waterworld"). And can you make a fun low budget online game? Guildwars did pretty well for itself and it had a shoestring budget. Heck, Minecraft was even way cheaper, it isn't a MMO but with a good enough idea and gamedesign you can make a good game.
As Minecraft - You can do Indie type of games that are great on shoestring budget. But you can not make next WOW or next EQ2 or next LOTRO. It is impossible because content costs money and manpower (with experience). So yes we can get new Indie game with great idea, procedural generated content (cause they have no money to create it). That is pure down to earth - as it is, fact. As 5 people in the garage can not make Guardians Of Galaxy film. So 5 people in the garage can not make another WOW. It is not possible.
And as for Ultima and other old MMOs. Yes they were created with small teams and with low budget. But again, a pixel graphic game that fits on 700mb disc has far less requirements than a game that needs 40giga on HD.
Face it. All we can get is a Indie wonder. That will either be very small (in scope) or be made with procedural generation.
Also, several of the people who are making crowdfunded MMOs at the moment are not part time students but have actually made good MMOs in the past. Like Garrion, MacQuiad & Jacobs.
I know. But they are just fronts. They are not doing code, or art. No mater how experienced is the boss. The flesh and bones of company are workers - and they are just rookies.
All that is certainly not any kind of guarantees for anything but it is too early to loose faith totally and declaring the genre dead.
Also, Japan, China and south Korea are still making AAA MMOs, there is the possibility that one of them actually will be good (not something I hold my breath waiting for but the possibility always exist. particularly Japan have actually made a few good games in the past).
One of the reason I gave up on the genre is recycled abominations pumped by China, Japan and Korea. I even think we should no call it MMO but give it a new name... ASMMO or something. Its like completely different genre. And certainly i realized not appealing to me
I agree that things look a bit bleak at the moment but other genres have been declared dead before only to rise again (4x games are a good example, AoW3 is a great game and CIV VI looks promising). The genre just need a single good game to reboot.
True. But it took 10+ years for them to suddenly rise back from the ashes
Pssh. MMOs are not dead, you just need to redefine what is living.
Make a laundry list of what you want in an MMO, maybe a dozen items, and then find a couple of free to plays to try out with at least 9 things from your list. Play them at least to level 20 to get a good feel for them. Most games that is about 6-15 hours. Now redefine your list.
Now look at the games that fit the best. Then ignore the 'I thought that game sucked to high heaven' stuff written about that game. The MMORPGs with the highest player bases are the ones slammed in these forums most frequently, such as WoW, SW:TOR and ESO. So if you make a list you like, and a game, even one ridiculed by these forums, shows up on it, give it a try. You can get a trial or F2P all of the three games I listed.
After doing this I found that Star Trek Online was the game best fitting in my 'living' list. So I reinstalled it, and it is a lot more fun than I remembered. I am sure the P2W effect at the end will kill it for me, but until then I will have a blast!
Once P2W drives me away, either one of the games I am waiting for (most notably Bless Online) will go beta, or I will do the same as I suggested to find the next one.
The world is going to the dogs, which is just how I planned it!
Can we please get a "Gloom & Doom" sub-forum so the nonsense stays contained to one area?
I have been asking for that, or at least single sticky thread like they have for solo vs. group play and sandpark vs themepark for the past several years. Maybe MMORPG.com staff feels like the OP and so they welcome all these various doom and gloom threads but do not tolerate those others I listed? /shrug
Why you think they started covering non-mmo games ?
LOL, you are still here? Oh yeah, you've really shaken free from MMORPGs, just not forums about them apparently.
There are good MMOs to play currently, (not many) and more will come out in the future.
You live in your own self imposed well of despair.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Waterworld - Even 18 years after its release on the very same weekend as Wolverine, Waterworld is still held up as the king of the bombs,
which wasn’t true then nor is it true now. At a then-record cost of
$175 million, the Kevin Reynolds-directed and Kevin Costner-starring
‘Mad Max on water’ adventure picture was tagged as a flop before it even
opened. Dubbed ‘Kevin’s Gate’ and ‘Fishtar’, the film battled rounds
and rounds of bad press concerning cost overruns due to the difficulties
of filming on water, as well as the behind the scenes squabbling
between Reynolds and Costner. The film debuted to mixed reviews and a
good-but-not great $22 million opening.
While the film suffered from bleh word of mouth (it was basically a
character-driven sci-fi downer with two massive bookend action scenes)
and eventually cashed out at $88 million in the US, overseas grosses
saved the day. Amassing $175 million in international dollars, the
picture limped out of the red with a respectable $266 million in global
box office. It was no mega smash, but the film eventually broke even
thanks to home video and cable sales. It’s no masterpiece, but it’s no
mega-flop either. It’s a generally satisfying action film that made its
money back the hard way. You want to knock an over budget Kevin Costner
epic? Pick on The Postman, but leave Waterworld alone.
Since 2004 i was completely obsessed by MMOs. I played all of them. Followed all of them. Posted thousands of posts on this site. MMOs were my life. I could not play almost any other game if it was not MMO...it just was not doing it for me.
And than that thing happened - thing that is widely discussed on this site ( so i will not go into it now ) - MMOs started dying.
Last subscription MMO i bought on release was WAR. Played it for few months and than it died.
I moved to F2P and B2P MMOs. Last one i bought was ESO, probably last "decent" MMO that will be published in this age...
And now for years there are no MMOs worth playing. And few semi Indie MMOs that are being made...how should i break it to you guys...If a AAA company with 300 million dollars and top notch teams can not make good MMO , what you expect from few part time students on a shoestring budget ? I tell you what - Not next WOW or EQ. I really hate to say that , but thats it for this genre ...
Only game that has some potential is perhaps Crowfall , but its not exactly a mmo. And perhaps for the best.
Alas, to the point.
Purging the system from MMO. Simply by not having a MMO to play for year have done wonders to me. I dont think I could again play a game that requires you to waste time on mindnumbing grind that is perhaps worse than work. And I even figured that my "cant play games if its not MMO" is due that perhaps games less interest me now. I finally have time for other things now !
I am free !
So enough of doom and gloom.
MMOs are dead and left to the times when we thought wasting life time on grinding was a good idea
You are still following MMOs and posting here about MMOs on these forums.
You most definitely are "not" free.
Tell you what, delete your account, never come back, maybe then we'll believe you.
Otherwise you are just 12 stepping it with the rest of the addicts.
I'd disagree with that, I actually feel identical to him. I don't play any games that at true mmo's atm and I don't have the urge to play any that I see on the market. I still pop in here and check out whats going on with the lastest bdo/star citizen nonsense mostly because its good comedy and its kinda of fun watching history repeat itself while many don't see it.
I think the mmo genre as we know it is sorta dead and maybe its not a bad thing. We will get hybrids take the parts of mmo's that work while leaving the rest out and mixing it with other genres. Maybe some interesting games will come out of it but I doubt any of them will be traditional mmo's and considering how stagnant that area has become I think its for the best.
OP's bait worked. Funny than even a mmorpg staffer agrees that the OP should delete his account and leave permanently, but anyway... Even inverted and put in a positive light instead of the OP's typical negative shroud there is some truth to the change in direction MMORPGs have gone. Hyberbole, is the obvious untruth. WoW clones decidedly are the dumbest thing to ever attempt, even investors know this. MMOs aren't something everyone crave nor do many devs have much interest in making them. I'm seeing far more talented devs going off to do their own games that aren't MMOs. Singleplayer/Multiplayer games have been getting far more attention and appreciation by gamers for their diversity and non-conformity, something that is still lacking from MMOs for the sake of profit.
I'm glad to not be seeing new MMOs released every year. The talent for making them have largely moved on. Indy devs often lack the vision and capability for MMOs. So that leaves a narrow window for success. While possible, it's looking like another 5+ years before a great one comes along again.
Since 2004 i was completely obsessed by MMOs. I played all of them. Followed all of them. Posted thousands of posts on this site. MMOs were my life. I could not play almost any other game if it was not MMO...it just was not doing it for me.
And than that thing happened - thing that is widely discussed on this site ( so i will not go into it now ) - MMOs started dying.
Last subscription MMO i bought on release was WAR. Played it for few months and than it died.
I moved to F2P and B2P MMOs. Last one i bought was ESO, probably last "decent" MMO that will be published in this age...
And now for years there are no MMOs worth playing. And few semi Indie MMOs that are being made...how should i break it to you guys...If a AAA company with 300 million dollars and top notch teams can not make good MMO , what you expect from few part time students on a shoestring budget ? I tell you what - Not next WOW or EQ. I really hate to say that , but thats it for this genre ...
Only game that has some potential is perhaps Crowfall , but its not exactly a mmo. And perhaps for the best.
Alas, to the point.
Purging the system from MMO. Simply by not having a MMO to play for year have done wonders to me. I dont think I could again play a game that requires you to waste time on mindnumbing grind that is perhaps worse than work. And I even figured that my "cant play games if its not MMO" is due that perhaps games less interest me now. I finally have time for other things now !
I am free !
So enough of doom and gloom.
MMOs are dead and left to the times when we thought wasting life time on grinding was a good idea
You are still following MMOs and posting here about MMOs on these forums.
You most definitely are "not" free.
Tell you what, delete your account, never come back, maybe then we'll believe you.
Otherwise you are just 12 stepping it with the rest of the addicts.
I'd disagree with that, I actually feel identical to him. I don't play any games that at true mmo's atm and I don't have the urge to play any that I see on the market. I still pop in here and check out whats going on with the lastest bdo/star citizen nonsense mostly because its good comedy and its kinda of fun watching history repeat itself while many don't see it.
I think the mmo genre as we know it is sorta dead and maybe its not a bad thing. We will get hybrids take the parts of mmo's that work while leaving the rest out and mixing it with other genres. Maybe some interesting games will come out of it but I doubt any of them will be traditional mmo's and considering how stagnant that area has become I think its for the best.
It's OK to feel like him, I do too at times, but you and I aren't starting threads about how free we are of them.
BTW, @mmoguy43, I'm not a MMORPG.com employee, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express once.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
BTW, @mmoguy43, I'm not a MMORPG.com employee, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express once.
He's talking about Suzie clicking the agree button on your post.
---------------------
if MMOs are dead I guess I'm just a happy necrophiliac.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
MMORPG's had their time in the sun. What I would like to see happen is them move toward a co-op style gaming. That way we can play with our friends so games like Skyrim, No Man's Sky, and such would be made even better. These are the games I want to play with my friends and family.
MMORPG's had their time in the sun. What I would like to see happen is them move toward a co-op style gaming. That way we can play with our friends so games like Skyrim, No Man's Sky, and such would be made even better. These are the games I want to play with my friends and family.
Other types of games have always been enjoyable, with or without multiplayer.
"Time in the sun" is overrated imo. What actually happened is that large studios wanted to cash in on the emerging popularity of mmorpgs in the middle of the last decade and they threw a lot of money and resources at it. For a few years this created a sense that these types of games were the top of the gaming heap and it attracted a lot of new people. Some of those actually liked this type of game play but many more were attracted because at that time it was the cool thing to do.
All that has changed is that other types of games such as MOBAs, card games and FPS (games that feature quick matches) are now the cool thing to play and large studios are once again following the crowd and developing those types of games in large quantities.
So we're back to the pre mmo craze norm with its core following. I can see how it would seem like a death to some, especially those who thought the "time in the sun" bubble was the norm, but its just a return to the niche type of gaming it always was and not everyone enjoys.
I don't want to see them move toward anything if moving there means trying to make them more like what the other types of games offer and less like the living worlds they're supposed to be.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Since 2004 i was completely obsessed by MMOs. I played all of them. Followed all of them. Posted thousands of posts on this site. MMOs were my life. I could not play almost any other game if it was not MMO...it just was not doing it for me.
And than that thing happened - thing that is widely discussed on this site ( so i will not go into it now ) - MMOs started dying.
Last subscription MMO i bought on release was WAR. Played it for few months and than it died.
I moved to F2P and B2P MMOs. Last one i bought was ESO, probably last "decent" MMO that will be published in this age...
And now for years there are no MMOs worth playing. And few semi Indie MMOs that are being made...how should i break it to you guys...If a AAA company with 300 million dollars and top notch teams can not make good MMO , what you expect from few part time students on a shoestring budget ? I tell you what - Not next WOW or EQ. I really hate to say that , but thats it for this genre ...
Only game that has some potential is perhaps Crowfall , but its not exactly a mmo. And perhaps for the best.
Alas, to the point.
Purging the system from MMO. Simply by not having a MMO to play for year have done wonders to me. I dont think I could again play a game that requires you to waste time on mindnumbing grind that is perhaps worse than work. And I even figured that my "cant play games if its not MMO" is due that perhaps games less interest me now. I finally have time for other things now !
I am free !
So enough of doom and gloom.
MMOs are dead and left to the times when we thought wasting life time on grinding was a good idea
You are still following MMOs and posting here about MMOs on these forums.
You most definitely are "not" free.
Tell you what, delete your account, never come back, maybe then we'll believe you.
Otherwise you are just 12 stepping it with the rest of the addicts.
Not really. They talk about more than just MMORPGs on this site. A lot of ARPGs are spoken about, and most of those games can be played primarily solo (i.e. Diablo III, Path of Exile, etc.).
I agree with the OP that you have a ton more free time when you aren't playing an MMORPG, because it's the only genre that really requires you to play it like a part time job for fear that you will get perpetually behind the goal post.
Player bases are a lot more "casual" than they were back in the day. Back when I played EQ in a top end guild, we were raiding for 3-5 hours a night, 5-6 nights a week. In WoW, guilds raid for 2-3 hours a night 2-3 nights a week. The games these days generally don't really require you to put in much effort outside of raiding once you get to end game, the way EQ required you to log in outside of raid times to farm for Spells (or Spell Runes), Rare Drops, Augments (i.e. RSS Augments outside of Raid Hours), Epic Quests, and XP for Alternate Advancement Points; and later do instances for that currency because some items were gated there (i.e. new LDoN spells or pet focus Augmentations).
So things did get better as time went on, as far as how much time you felt you absolutely had to commit to the game; but it's still more than other genres unless you're a competitive eSports type.
Sticking around on the forum has nothing to do with that. They still have opinions and many players have played these games a lot and have valid input to give even if they no longer play these types of games. It's not like a paradigm shift in the industry happened immediately after they unsubscribed and uninstalled their games ;-)
Grind to win is dead, I don't have time nor desire for that anymore, and it seems majority don't either
Pay to fast track = hallelujah!
Good times.
Paying to reduce grind saved MMOs.
What do you want if not grind?
People want MMO's to be able to play them for years, and NO game has content that last years, eventually you reach the end-game and the grind starts. Without grind the whole MMO figure goes down the drain. There has to be something that provides enough longevity gameplay-wise otherwise the game just "ends" you have nothing else to do...
Grind is necessary, but it needs to be balanced and countered with actual fun and enjoyable gameplay, the grind to avoid is you having no fun on repeating the same content constantly to reach X goal.
They've always been dying, being born, re-inventing, etc. It isn't a stagnant thing and will continue to evolve. Some for better and some for worse. If you stay in the 'rose colored past' mode like a lot of people, it will evolve without you. Embrace change and find something. I'm not saying you have to like everything or that you have to settle. However, unless you want to be the like that old guy who refuses to touch a cell because a landline was much better in his day and nothing will ever be as good.... evolve.
Since 2004 i was completely obsessed by MMOs. I played all of them. Followed all of them. Posted thousands of posts on this site. MMOs were my life. I could not play almost any other game if it was not MMO...it just was not doing it for me.
And than that thing happened - thing that is widely discussed on this site ( so i will not go into it now ) - MMOs started dying.
Last subscription MMO i bought on release was WAR. Played it for few months and than it died.
I moved to F2P and B2P MMOs. Last one i bought was ESO, probably last "decent" MMO that will be published in this age...
And now for years there are no MMOs worth playing. And few semi Indie MMOs that are being made...how should i break it to you guys...If a AAA company with 300 million dollars and top notch teams can not make good MMO , what you expect from few part time students on a shoestring budget ? I tell you what - Not next WOW or EQ. I really hate to say that , but thats it for this genre ...
Only game that has some potential is perhaps Crowfall , but its not exactly a mmo. And perhaps for the best.
Alas, to the point.
Purging the system from MMO. Simply by not having a MMO to play for year have done wonders to me. I dont think I could again play a game that requires you to waste time on mindnumbing grind that is perhaps worse than work. And I even figured that my "cant play games if its not MMO" is due that perhaps games less interest me now. I finally have time for other things now !
I am free !
So enough of doom and gloom.
MMOs are dead and left to the times when we thought wasting life time on grinding was a good idea
stay away from black desert then . I've played mmo's for ever, and I can totally get "if it isn;t an mmo I won't play it." So last year I fell out of love because of the stagnet market, bought the witcher series which rejuvenated my yearn for an mm, then black desert online came out and I can say, I'm in love once again . Sometimes a great single player experience can ignite the love. it did for me :pleased: Absolutely love Black Desert online, took everything I love about online gaming and executed it amazzingly :pleased:
The real problem with MMOs is the dreaded F2P/P2W business model.
I've played so many MMOs that were good and enjoyable before the devs decided to make them into F2P/P2W-garbage. They all had their flaws, but the devs could've easily fixed the issues if they would've only been happy with their amount of paying customers. AoC, STO, SWTOR, TSW... they all suffered from the greed of the developers, nothing else.
MMOs should really return to subscription model. Sure it brings less money to developers that cash shop things or P2W even. But offers much more stable player base and steady income. Who says you can't have some cash shop on top of that for some extra mount or costumes (strictly appearance only tho!). What is nowadays those 13e/month for sub? One fancy dinner in the restaurant and you can play for month or more even. Worth it in my opinion.
F2P/P2W brings unstable communities. I think the way it normally works there is that you just go play something for a month or two, spend some money on it because in first 3 weeks it looks all shiny and new and then leave because it's not that shiny. We get to try things our persistent worlds became not so persistent with this. Or maybe it's just me who does this?
MMOs should really return to subscription model. Sure it brings less money to developers that cash shop things or P2W even. But offers much more stable player base and steady income. Who says you can't have some cash shop on top of that for some extra mount or costumes (strictly appearance only tho!). What is nowadays those 13e/month for sub? One fancy dinner in the restaurant and you can play for month or more even. Worth it in my opinion.
F2P/P2W brings unstable communities. I think the way it normally works there is that you just go play something for a month or two, spend some money on it because in first 3 weeks it looks all shiny and new and then leave because it's not that shiny. We get to try things our persistent worlds became not so persistent with this. Or maybe it's just me who does this?
Then it's chalked up to, well, if you want a p2p sub mmo then make one yourself. You can't tell a company to make something that will cost them tons of money and not get as much money back or as much usage as another model just because a handful of people on one forum complain about it cause it isn't like the "good ol days". I think people need to learn to get what fun they can out of the current MMOs and not try to live them like they used to cause it seems to only bring them issues. Yeah, some F2Ps suck and some F2Ps offer convinence items for people with cash but as long as they don't offer the god sword of the cashshop +10000 then I think they are bitching for nothing.
Most MMORPGers I know pretty much love the first MMO they were attached to, many which was WoW, and yet keep thinking that the next MMO to come out will be just as good or better then what they played in their past. Well, it wont, it never will be better then your rose colored glasses image of the game you used to play.
Comments
Also, once the game was released they did hire in more people including support, community manager and so on, but again, those people didn't actually make the game. Running cost is not included in development. The Eye of the north expansion had several times the original crew making it.
My point was and still is: Guildwars was originally made for peanuts compared to most game and was still successful. The original CCP team that made Eve was also a handful people. That was a few years ago though and if GW was made today they would probably have needed twice that many devs but that would still be indie money.
You can certainly not run a released MMO with as few people though but that is a very different matter, just customer support takes a lot of people.
When SWG was made people were shocked that SOE had about 30 people working on it which was exceptional at the time.
It is certainly easier to make a good game with 200 people then 10 but there is a difference between hard and impossible.
EQs budget (until launch) was something between $8-9M (depending on the source), Wows was $60, WAR & AoC around $80M and TOR was somewhere over $100M. More budget does not necessarily mean a better game.
"My Fantasy is having two men at once...
One Cooking and One Cleaning!"
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"A good man can make you feel sexy,
strong and able to take on the whole world...
oh sorry...that's wine...wine does that..."
Oh boy MMOs are about throwing credit cards at them.
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/Congratulations ! Keep smelling the roses.
Like you I have stopped playing mmog.I stopped when ESO, decided to lie to its purchasers and charge a subscription to play parts of the game.
I am very interested in Camelot Unchained however
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
MMOs arent dead but the fact that you have to go and play stuff 12-15 years old to have any sort of 'fun' shows theyre not doing well and everything released in the past 5 or 6 years and everything on the horizon isnt going to be any good.
I would hope that people would have learned their lessons with the fact that every MM O that has come laong recently has followed the same pattern. GW 2 and ESO might be slightly different because they were the last two made by a 'AAA" company but GW2 was supposed to tbe the actual WoW killer game. But as it unfolded the hye died and reality set in and that was the one game that people actually had a sensible outlook on. Yea there were the rabid fanboys but many saw reality. ESO was mostly hated on, and for good reason. It also has the distinction of being one of the few games to actually improve after release. But it still doesnt have enough features people are looking for to be considered an out of the park must play MMO.
People that continue to hang their hats on promises and dreams and look forward to every hyped game that is coming along are technically insane because theyre tryying to see soemthing that hanst changed, wont change, and repeating it over and over again and will as the future will prove getting the same result.
Its all about low content and pay to win. The genre filling the gap right now is the so called 'survival' game where you have small pop servers and 'sand boxy' elements, which mostly consist of building stuff, exploring a map devoid of NPCs or quests, and killing other players. Which become real boring real fast unless youre into RP and can find some decent RP servers, or are the borderline psychotic who loves rolling around just killing people. Other than that these games offer nothing. Theyre 'fun' for awhile until you realize what they are and theyre all basically the same. ARK is SLIGHTLY different and thats because it has a billion mods that can take some time to learn and add some dimensions to the game, and it has a couple decent maps now as well that at least change the scenery, but its still dinosaurs, building stuff, killing people, and RP just with a different shell.
Also people commenting about the grind or the whatever that might take too long. Thats why MMOs died and are failing left and right. The new generations wants everything now and they want it in their games too. So the elements of what makes an MMO decent have been changed. Thats why these survival type games and lobby games are working you do a map for awhile then start over. So an arena and start another one. You might keep a character you might even advance it as you go along but you are building anything long lasting in a persistent world, which is what MMOs were all about. Sure you might recognize a players name or a characters name but its not the same as seeing them from day to day in the same game world. Some people might think that is over rated but it is basically the core of an MMO.
In any event MMOs are in fact dead and all the new ones coming out are either not going to come out at all, will come ot with a fraction of what people think they will, will be pay to win from the get go or in the least pay to even have a chance at competing. Will have little to no lore, and will require players to invent their own 'content' because they didnt have the money or the ability to make content themselves.
Make a laundry list of what you want in an MMO, maybe a dozen items, and then find a couple of free to plays to try out with at least 9 things from your list. Play them at least to level 20 to get a good feel for them. Most games that is about 6-15 hours. Now redefine your list.
Now look at the games that fit the best. Then ignore the 'I thought that game sucked to high heaven' stuff written about that game. The MMORPGs with the highest player bases are the ones slammed in these forums most frequently, such as WoW, SW:TOR and ESO. So if you make a list you like, and a game, even one ridiculed by these forums, shows up on it, give it a try. You can get a trial or F2P all of the three games I listed.
After doing this I found that Star Trek Online was the game best fitting in my 'living' list. So I reinstalled it, and it is a lot more fun than I remembered. I am sure the P2W effect at the end will kill it for me, but until then I will have a blast!
Once P2W drives me away, either one of the games I am waiting for (most notably Bless Online) will go beta, or I will do the same as I suggested to find the next one.
The world is going to the dogs, which is just how I planned it!
There are good MMOs to play currently, (not many) and more will come out in the future.
You live in your own self imposed well of despair.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Completely off topic but... (I know this has nothing to do with the OP but it is an interesting fact!)
"Waterworld" actually turned a profit. Use "Postman" instead
Source: http://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmendelson/2013/08/01/the-wolverine-waterworld-and-other-flops-that-werent/#387ffe7c273e
Waterworld - Even 18 years after its release on the very same weekend as Wolverine, Waterworld is still held up as the king of the bombs, which wasn’t true then nor is it true now. At a then-record cost of $175 million, the Kevin Reynolds-directed and Kevin Costner-starring ‘Mad Max on water’ adventure picture was tagged as a flop before it even opened. Dubbed ‘Kevin’s Gate’ and ‘Fishtar’, the film battled rounds and rounds of bad press concerning cost overruns due to the difficulties of filming on water, as well as the behind the scenes squabbling between Reynolds and Costner. The film debuted to mixed reviews and a good-but-not great $22 million opening.
While the film suffered from bleh word of mouth (it was basically a character-driven sci-fi downer with two massive bookend action scenes) and eventually cashed out at $88 million in the US, overseas grosses saved the day. Amassing $175 million in international dollars, the picture limped out of the red with a respectable $266 million in global box office. It was no mega smash, but the film eventually broke even thanks to home video and cable sales. It’s no masterpiece, but it’s no mega-flop either. It’s a generally satisfying action film that made its money back the hard way. You want to knock an over budget Kevin Costner epic? Pick on The Postman, but leave Waterworld alone.
I think the mmo genre as we know it is sorta dead and maybe its not a bad thing. We will get hybrids take the parts of mmo's that work while leaving the rest out and mixing it with other genres. Maybe some interesting games will come out of it but I doubt any of them will be traditional mmo's and considering how stagnant that area has become I think its for the best.
Even inverted and put in a positive light instead of the OP's typical negative shroud there is some truth to the change in direction MMORPGs have gone. Hyberbole, is the obvious untruth. WoW clones decidedly are the dumbest thing to ever attempt, even investors know this. MMOs aren't something everyone crave nor do many devs have much interest in making them. I'm seeing far more talented devs going off to do their own games that aren't MMOs. Singleplayer/Multiplayer games have been getting far more attention and appreciation by gamers for their diversity and non-conformity, something that is still lacking from MMOs for the sake of profit.
I'm glad to not be seeing new MMOs released every year. The talent for making them have largely moved on. Indy devs often lack the vision and capability for MMOs. So that leaves a narrow window for success. While possible, it's looking like another 5+ years before a great one comes along again.
BTW, @mmoguy43, I'm not a MMORPG.com employee, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express once.
Besides, everyone knows I'm an EVE shill.
[Not]
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
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if MMOs are dead I guess I'm just a happy necrophiliac.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
"Time in the sun" is overrated imo. What actually happened is that large studios wanted to cash in on the emerging popularity of mmorpgs in the middle of the last decade and they threw a lot of money and resources at it. For a few years this created a sense that these types of games were the top of the gaming heap and it attracted a lot of new people. Some of those actually liked this type of game play but many more were attracted because at that time it was the cool thing to do.
All that has changed is that other types of games such as MOBAs, card games and FPS (games that feature quick matches) are now the cool thing to play and large studios are once again following the crowd and developing those types of games in large quantities.
So we're back to the pre mmo craze norm with its core following. I can see how it would seem like a death to some, especially those who thought the "time in the sun" bubble was the norm, but its just a return to the niche type of gaming it always was and not everyone enjoys.
I don't want to see them move toward anything if moving there means trying to make them more like what the other types of games offer and less like the living worlds they're supposed to be.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
I agree with the OP that you have a ton more free time when you aren't playing an MMORPG, because it's the only genre that really requires you to play it like a part time job for fear that you will get perpetually behind the goal post.
Player bases are a lot more "casual" than they were back in the day. Back when I played EQ in a top end guild, we were raiding for 3-5 hours a night, 5-6 nights a week. In WoW, guilds raid for 2-3 hours a night 2-3 nights a week. The games these days generally don't really require you to put in much effort outside of raiding once you get to end game, the way EQ required you to log in outside of raid times to farm for Spells (or Spell Runes), Rare Drops, Augments (i.e. RSS Augments outside of Raid Hours), Epic Quests, and XP for Alternate Advancement Points; and later do instances for that currency because some items were gated there (i.e. new LDoN spells or pet focus Augmentations).
So things did get better as time went on, as far as how much time you felt you absolutely had to commit to the game; but it's still more than other genres unless you're a competitive eSports type.
Sticking around on the forum has nothing to do with that. They still have opinions and many players have played these games a lot and have valid input to give even if they no longer play these types of games. It's not like a paradigm shift in the industry happened immediately after they unsubscribed and uninstalled their games ;-)
What do you want if not grind?
People want MMO's to be able to play them for years, and NO game has content that last years, eventually you reach the end-game and the grind starts. Without grind the whole MMO figure goes down the drain. There has to be something that provides enough longevity gameplay-wise otherwise the game just "ends" you have nothing else to do...
Grind is necessary, but it needs to be balanced and countered with actual fun and enjoyable gameplay, the grind to avoid is you having no fun on repeating the same content constantly to reach X goal.
I self identify as a monkey.
I've played so many MMOs that were good and enjoyable before the devs decided to make them into F2P/P2W-garbage. They all had their flaws, but the devs could've easily fixed the issues if they would've only been happy with their amount of paying customers. AoC, STO, SWTOR, TSW... they all suffered from the greed of the developers, nothing else.
What is nowadays those 13e/month for sub? One fancy dinner in the restaurant and you can play for month or more even. Worth it in my opinion.
F2P/P2W brings unstable communities. I think the way it normally works there is that you just go play something for a month or two, spend some money on it because in first 3 weeks it looks all shiny and new and then leave because it's not that shiny. We get to try things our persistent worlds became not so persistent with this. Or maybe it's just me who does this?
Most MMORPGers I know pretty much love the first MMO they were attached to, many which was WoW, and yet keep thinking that the next MMO to come out will be just as good or better then what they played in their past. Well, it wont, it never will be better then your rose colored glasses image of the game you used to play.