The thing is, there is no pay to win in a roleplaying game. Pay to win completely destroys the spirit of a roleplaying game. I may be a purist when it comes to roleplaying games, but when someone gives the DM some real life stuff to get something for his character, it's just that I might not mind it or then I might but if we are talking about definitions, that's were I draw the line.
Talking about games where thousands of players exist simultaneously in a single instance and mechanics related to such games.
Most F2P Games are indeed Pay 2 Win, Nexon, NCsoft, Daum Games, Aeria Games, other F2P Companies I don't mention here do this often...
Pay 2 Win defines IMO, as any game that provides an unfair advantage to others that can be bought for money for example "Bikini" or "Shirts" that give stats bonus vs those that don't, as well as being able to flat out spend thousands of dollars in a game to "Advance like 100x Faster" XP bonuses, and premium subscriptions or actual (DLC) isn't bad for example (Sky Forge) isn't really pay 2 Win, but its more (Pay 2 Enjoy) which I define as having to pay for Content to make your character look cool and such...
Often Korean Games are both Pay 2 Win, Pay 2 Advance Faster, and Pay 2 Enjoy, for example "Aion" with plastic surgery tickets, Vindictus with paying $100 to make a character look really good rather than unlocking things per account, and Arche Age, Paying both to advance faster, and finally $100 packs just to get the cool items or you can't get them the reason I quit AA, also Daum Games following this trend with the new Pay 2 win and pay 2 enjoy things in BDO costumes cost about $35-40 a costume to custom make it with parts from different costumes rather than buying a full set, and its per character not account unlocked.
The only games that I can think of that don't do this "League OF Legends" "WOW" " DOTA 2" "Smite" they are truly Free to play unlike NCsofts scam of "Truly Free" which isn't true "Truly free for the bare minimum" but to advance faster or look good you spend lots of money, another game which is decent is "Rift" not really my type of game, but costumes and cosmetics are unlocked "Per account"...
DLC, and Cosmetic packages are great, but should always be unlocked for the whole users account with the ability to change anytime, (This is something Skyforge does) and why its the only game I play besides moba sometimes.
All the Pay 2 Win Games I quit not worth playing for Pay 2 Enjoy titles, or Pay 2 Win / Advance faster (For example EVE Online) if you got a million dollars to invest, you can go buy "Titan Pilots" without training up at all (Pay 2 Win)...
Perhaps if Korean Games like Aion, and such would stop "selling cosmetic items" character bound, stop charging to change a characters looks after unlocking an appearance, and rather keep them truly free 2 play, with optional items that don't tip the balance of game-play then they would keep going and keep players playing longer... Also then (RNG) game or upgrade/downgrade game gets rather old, although you can spend $30 in ArcheAge, and such to make sure if your item fails it isn't ever lost.
It's the threshold between feeling that you can reasonably earn everything in-game and be competitive, and feeling at a disadvantage unless you pay.
It's the threshold between devs asking a reasonable price (eg. 15 €/month) to develop and run their game, and creating a situation where no matter how much you buy you still feel you should buy more.
It's the threshold between feeling that you can reasonably earn everything in-game and be competitive, and feeling at a disadvantage unless you pay.
It's the threshold between devs asking a reasonable price (eg. 15 €/month) to develop and run their game, and creating a situation where no matter how much you buy you still feel you should buy more.
I think that you can,and I think it's imperative that we do. Again, I understand that some might feel differently than others, but there really needs to be some sacrifices made and people need to converge on some sort of concrete definition. Right now people are complaining, but their demands are unreasonable. There needs to be a balance between profitability and fairness. As long as people are unreasonable, then the developer can simply use that as an excuse to do whatever they want.
It's the threshold between feeling that you can reasonably earn everything in-game and be competitive, and feeling at a disadvantage unless you pay.
It's the threshold between devs asking a reasonable price (eg. 15 €/month) to develop and run their game, and creating a situation where no matter how much you buy you still feel you should buy more.
You don't need to define it. You need to look at each game and ask yourself, "How is this going to workout for me, if I decide to invest my valuable time and (limited?) money into this game?"
Then look at how much time you will need vs how much money you will need to play the way you want to play and can it be done?
We dev a Indie MMO on a F2P model and we are very concerned about what is P2W because it's our limit. This is our criterias to define if it's P2W or not.
It's P2W if: - You can't get a equivalent by fully F2P (item, bonus, etc.) - If you modify any RNG mecanism by just paying (it include craft, or buying ressources you can collect)
It's not P2W: - If it just help you to progress more faster (with some limits) in your charactere levelling. - If in some way it's what dev consider as the normal "paid version" on the game (for example slot tab in Path of Exil) - If it's cosmetic
-------------------- Grouroux, Game Designer Gangs of Space > Indie MMO Shmup Roguelike > Join Alpha : BEE7E-3B768-7626A-2A740
I think P2W does have a time element. If my friend and I start a game at the same time and I buy a lot of ships, weapons, and gear in general, when I go up against my friend in his starter ship, with both are skill sets near equal, I will win. People say yes but in time he will work and get bigger ships and more gear so things will be equal. I say no, because I'm still using the stuff I got to get more stuff. Plus there's always new stuff coming out and when he works and finally gets the stuff I have now, I'll have the newest stuff with the higher stats, so he will still be behind me. The only way he could catch up would be to start spending money or if I took a long break from the game and didn't buy anything from the cash shop that had higher stats when I came back, or didn't buy in game currency so I could buy high end stuff from the auction house.
If you throw money at a game that sells items with stats you have an advantage over players who don't.
Cosmetic items for sale with zero stats would not be P2W. Same thing for grind to win, G2W. If he can spent 20 hours a day playing a game that I can only spend five hours a day playing he will beat me, unless he has a bad skillset.
Skyforge had a WEEKLY XP cap which drove players crazy but I think it was a good idea as it prevented G2W.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
We dev a Indie MMO on a F2P model and we are very concerned about what is P2W because it's our limit. This is our criterias to define if it's P2W or not.
It's P2W if: - You can't get a equivalent by fully F2P (item, bonus, etc.) - If you modify any RNG mecanism by just paying (it include craft, or buying ressources you can collect)
It's not P2W: - If it just help you to progress more faster (with some limits) in your charactere levelling. - If in some way it's what dev consider as the normal "paid version" on the game (for example slot tab in Path of Exil) - If it's cosmetic
I disagree with your definition. (Well, not entirely, but you are missing something) So many people fail to grasp the impact of "over time" This is why so many P2W games don't sell single P2W items. They sell consumables. You said faster progression isn't P2W. I played Rappelz, at the time I played the game, no one had ever reached level cap yet. Leveling faster was a big deal. Yet the same mechanic in GW2 isn't P2W because there is a cap and it's easy to get just playing the game. Then there is grinding for stuff, if the grind is unreasonable, but theoretically possible, the game could still be P2W. It doesn't matter if you can get an item by playing the game if by the time you get it, it's obsolete. If the progression ladder grows faster than you can climb it without constantly spending money "over time", the game is P2W (to me).
The problem with defining P2W is that once you do, Developers only need to exploit a loophole in the definition to say a game isn't P2W.
You have to just look at each game for what it is individually and determine if the game is P2W (And that's subjective to each player) or not. There can never be a definition.
Right. However, to my mind, paying to the top isn't P2W unless they have and advantage that you can't obtain in game.
To play the devil's advocate, what if we look at an extreme example. A game may require 1.000 hours to drop a new sword. Or you may purchase it for 1$ on the cash shop. If dropping said sword is part of the progression, then I would argue it's P2W. It is likely majority of active players would spend the 1$, over dropping in 1.000 hours.
In the best case scenario, the 1.000 hours are incredibly fun - it's the journey, not the goal. Majority of free-to-play games aren't built with that in mind though. They of course incentivise the purchase. If you spend all your resources designing the perfect 1.000 hour experience, then you aren't developing for your paying customers (who skip this by definition).
When a game incentivises progression through money, over progression through playing, it is P2W in my eyes.
Regardless of your wins or losses, you will never be a "full class" customer if you don't pay in such games.
If I'm interpreting this incorrectly, please correct. When I get into discussions about this, I wanna make sure I have some basis.
P2W just defines the microtransaction business model, which can be summed up as selling a player an advantage in the cash shop. However, many people confuse advantage with fairness. In essence, all microtransaction games are P2W, but not all P2W games are unfair.
A simple example is playing basketball with a friend. Your friend may be taller, but you may be faster so the advantage your friend has may not be unfair. In other words, advantage is the thing that is quantifiable and fairness is a person's interpretation of the situation.
I think that pay to win also includes offering special items that make getting advantageous items considerably easier than other players. For instance gear upgrades that take 4 months to max a single piece of equipment given the formulas and cost verse paying $50 to get it within a few days.
This means nothing more than paying to win. If you can't do it on your own...you pay to help you win. Not sure why it's so damn hard to understand.
If you use money and it gives you an advantage it is therefore P2W. I'm excluding cosmetic upgrades that do not enhance your stats. Like Gest said it is not hard to understand. I really can't see what all the debate is about either lol.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
This means nothing more than paying to win. If you can't do it on your own...you pay to help you win. Not sure why it's so damn hard to understand.
Define "to win" in terms of a MMORPG.
Win what exactly?
There's where the variety of opinions stem from.
Far more complicated as people really can't seem to distinguish between "advantage" and "win", sort of weird really.
Let's be honest. The issue with this definition boils down to willful ignorance. I think everybody knows what the term means, how it applies and when it applies......They just don't want to admit it sometimes. It boils down to who likes what game. If someone likes the game, they will find every reason it's not P2W.
This means nothing more than paying to win. If you can't do it on your own...you pay to help you win. Not sure why it's so damn hard to understand.
Define "to win" in terms of a MMORPG.
Win what exactly?
There's where the variety of opinions stem from.
Far more complicated as people really can't seem to distinguish between "advantage" and "win", sort of weird really.
Sorry Kyleran I don't follow you? An advantage is definitely an improvement. When you improve there is an advancement. When you advance you obviously gain. When you gain you profit. When you profit you benefit. When you benefit you prosper. When you prosper you flourish, or do well. When you flourish you reach the top. When you reach the top you win.
Or if you rather, do only people who spend cash dominate?
This is the way it was in its original form.
BDO, for example, would not fit this at all.
For some there is a line when there are optional subscriptions are expansions, but as this was the original model for the genre I would very, very strongly disagree with the notion that this is p2w. However a game like Runes of Magic....thats a different matter.
Even if we distilled it down to something straightforward and succinct "A competitive advantage over others that is only available for real life cash."
there are several here that would still argue that even the most innocuous of cosmetic items falls under the category of 'competitive' or 'advantage'. If we could break through that entitlement wall, we could probably arrive at a decent definition. Not going to happen on these forums.
Getting an advantage in a cash shop that means, all other things being equal, that in 100 duels you win 52-55 and I win 45-48, that is not pay to win. That is something most players can work around with enough motivation. If the cash shop means you win 85-90 and I win 10-15, then we have a problem. That is a clear and unmistakable advantage that would require me to P2W to get over.
Piddly little stuff does not make a cash shop pay to win. Obvious superiority by spending real cash in a game does make it P2W.
The world is going to the dogs, which is just how I planned it!
This means nothing more than paying to win. If you can't do it on your own...you pay to help you win. Not sure why it's so damn hard to understand.
Define "to win" in terms of a MMORPG.
Win what exactly?
There's where the variety of opinions stem from.
Far more complicated as people really can't seem to distinguish between "advantage" and "win", sort of weird really.
Sorry Kyleran I don't follow you? An advantage is definitely an improvement. When you improve there is an advancement. When you advance you obviously gain. When you gain you profit. When you profit you benefit. When you benefit you prosper. When you prosper you flourish, or do well. When you flourish you reach the top. When you reach the top you win.
That's how I see it.
some would consider buying a near max level character in WoW or buying game time with real money and selling for gold P2W.
Now look at the top WoW players. For the most part these are the people BUYING the game time with gold, not selling it. WoW is not pay 2 win by any rationale definition.
"If you can buy more than cosmetics it's p2w" is the no bs definition but since most of you are guilty of buying some crap at one point or another you try to come out with a definition that leaves you out of it lmao.
ok, so to preface, I'm trying to be obtuse, but I see this term thrown around in just about every conceivable manner, and I want to make sure that I have it right. I've begun to see P2W in monopoly, it's used so much and in such a variety of ways.
So my definition is "Offering items/abilities/changes to characters that give them an advantage over others in PvP that other characters otherwise couldn't get without paying for it"
No P2W in PvE unless there is some direct competition involved that contains a way to 'win' A business type game comes to mind.
No P2W with faster progression: Also, I don't consider abilities that allow people to progress faster as P2W. The reason being, if I can take longer, but get the same abilities/items/changes to character through gameplay, i have the same chance if I work for it. Otherwise, it would be unfair for people who play 48 hours straight, hopped up on caffeine. It's unrealistic for me to do this, so they should be slowed down so that we reach the same point at roughly the same time.
If I'm interpreting this incorrectly, please correct. When I get into discussions about this, I wanna make sure I have some basis.
Yeah that's basically it.
Any skill challenge will have winning. This includes PVE challenges. So if you can buy something that makes winning easier (the makes it require less skill) then that's P2W.
Personally I feel way too much attention is given to P2W, because it's almost nonexistent in MMORPGs, and meanwhile the vastly more common problem (games selling XP potions and then creating excessive, boring grinds to sell them) is mentioned less often. Neither the XP potion nor the grind are P2W, but it undeniably reduces the fun (because excessive repetition isn't fun).
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
So my definition is "Offering items/abilities/changes to characters that give them an advantage over others in PvP that other characters otherwise couldn't get without paying for it"
Mine is:
Using real money to purchase any in game advantage beyond a standard sub (any transaction that gives an edge for cash).
The impact of P2W stretches along a pretty big line... PvP advantages are much more impactful than buying an extra bag slot for PvE.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
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Comments
Pay 2 Win defines IMO, as any game that provides an unfair advantage to others that can be bought for money for example "Bikini" or "Shirts" that give stats bonus vs those that don't, as well as being able to flat out spend thousands of dollars in a game to "Advance like 100x Faster" XP bonuses, and premium subscriptions or actual (DLC) isn't bad for example (Sky Forge) isn't really pay 2 Win, but its more (Pay 2 Enjoy) which I define as having to pay for Content to make your character look cool and such...
Often Korean Games are both Pay 2 Win, Pay 2 Advance Faster, and Pay 2 Enjoy, for example "Aion" with plastic surgery tickets, Vindictus with paying $100 to make a character look really good rather than unlocking things per account, and Arche Age, Paying both to advance faster, and finally $100 packs just to get the cool items or you can't get them the reason I quit AA, also Daum Games following this trend with the new Pay 2 win and pay 2 enjoy things in BDO costumes cost about $35-40 a costume to custom make it with parts from different costumes rather than buying a full set, and its per character not account unlocked.
The only games that I can think of that don't do this "League OF Legends" "WOW" " DOTA 2" "Smite" they are truly Free to play unlike NCsofts scam of "Truly Free" which isn't true "Truly free for the bare minimum" but to advance faster or look good you spend lots of money, another game which is decent is "Rift" not really my type of game, but costumes and cosmetics are unlocked "Per account"...
DLC, and Cosmetic packages are great, but should always be unlocked for the whole users account with the ability to change anytime, (This is something Skyforge does) and why its the only game I play besides moba sometimes.
All the Pay 2 Win Games I quit not worth playing for Pay 2 Enjoy titles, or Pay 2 Win / Advance faster (For example EVE Online) if you got a million dollars to invest, you can go buy "Titan Pilots" without training up at all (Pay 2 Win)...
Perhaps if Korean Games like Aion, and such would stop "selling cosmetic items" character bound, stop charging to change a characters looks after unlocking an appearance, and rather keep them truly free 2 play, with optional items that don't tip the balance of game-play then they would keep going and keep players playing longer... Also then (RNG) game or upgrade/downgrade game gets rather old, although you can spend $30 in ArcheAge, and such to make sure if your item fails it isn't ever lost.
It's the threshold between feeling that you can reasonably earn everything in-game and be competitive, and feeling at a disadvantage unless you pay.
It's the threshold between devs asking a reasonable price (eg. 15 €/month) to develop and run their game, and creating a situation where no matter how much you buy you still feel you should buy more.
I think that you can,and I think it's imperative that we do. Again, I understand that some might feel differently than others, but there really needs to be some sacrifices made and people need to converge on some sort of concrete definition. Right now people are complaining, but their demands are unreasonable. There needs to be a balance between profitability and fairness. As long as people are unreasonable, then the developer can simply use that as an excuse to do whatever they want.
Crazkanuk
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Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
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You need to look at each game and ask yourself, "How is this going to workout for me, if I decide to invest my valuable time and (limited?) money into this game?"
Then look at how much time you will need vs how much money you will need to play the way you want to play and can it be done?
It's P2W if:
- You can't get a equivalent by fully F2P (item, bonus, etc.)
- If you modify any RNG mecanism by just paying (it include craft, or buying ressources you can collect)
It's not P2W:
- If it just help you to progress more faster (with some limits) in your charactere levelling.
- If in some way it's what dev consider as the normal "paid version" on the game (for example slot tab in Path of Exil)
- If it's cosmetic
--------------------
Grouroux, Game Designer
Gangs of Space > Indie MMO Shmup Roguelike > Join Alpha : BEE7E-3B768-7626A-2A740
If you throw money at a game that sells items with stats you have an advantage over players who don't.
Cosmetic items for sale with zero stats would not be P2W. Same thing for grind to win, G2W. If he can spent 20 hours a day playing a game that I can only spend five hours a day playing he will beat me, unless he has a bad skillset.
Skyforge had a WEEKLY XP cap which drove players crazy but I think it was a good idea as it prevented G2W.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
So many people fail to grasp the impact of "over time" This is why so many P2W games don't sell single P2W items. They sell consumables. You said faster progression isn't P2W. I played Rappelz, at the time I played the game, no one had ever reached level cap yet. Leveling faster was a big deal. Yet the same mechanic in GW2 isn't P2W because there is a cap and it's easy to get just playing the game. Then there is grinding for stuff, if the grind is unreasonable, but theoretically possible, the game could still be P2W. It doesn't matter if you can get an item by playing the game if by the time you get it, it's obsolete. If the progression ladder grows faster than you can climb it without constantly spending money "over time", the game is P2W (to me).
The problem with defining P2W is that once you do, Developers only need to exploit a loophole in the definition to say a game isn't P2W.
You have to just look at each game for what it is individually and determine if the game is P2W (And that's subjective to each player) or not. There can never be a definition.
The argument will continue endlessly.
In the best case scenario, the 1.000 hours are incredibly fun - it's the journey, not the goal. Majority of free-to-play games aren't built with that in mind though. They of course incentivise the purchase. If you spend all your resources designing the perfect 1.000 hour experience, then you aren't developing for your paying customers (who skip this by definition).
When a game incentivises progression through money, over progression through playing, it is P2W in my eyes.
Regardless of your wins or losses, you will never be a "full class" customer if you don't pay in such games.
P2W just defines the microtransaction business model, which can be summed up as selling a player an advantage in the cash shop. However, many people confuse advantage with fairness. In essence, all microtransaction games are P2W, but not all P2W games are unfair.
A simple example is playing basketball with a friend. Your friend may be taller, but you may be faster so the advantage your friend has may not be unfair. In other words, advantage is the thing that is quantifiable and fairness is a person's interpretation of the situation.
This means nothing more than paying to win. If you can't do it on your own...you pay to help you win. Not sure why it's so damn hard to understand.
"This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."
Or if you rather, do only people who spend cash dominate?
If so, then your game may just be P2W.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Win what exactly?
There's where the variety of opinions stem from.
Far more complicated as people really can't seem to distinguish between "advantage" and "win", sort of weird really.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
That's how I see it.
BDO, for example, would not fit this at all.
For some there is a line when there are optional subscriptions are expansions, but as this was the original model for the genre I would very, very strongly disagree with the notion that this is p2w. However a game like Runes of Magic....thats a different matter.
Piddly little stuff does not make a cash shop pay to win. Obvious superiority by spending real cash in a game does make it P2W.
The world is going to the dogs, which is just how I planned it!
Now look at the top WoW players. For the most part these are the people BUYING the game time with gold, not selling it. WoW is not pay 2 win by any rationale definition.
Any skill challenge will have winning. This includes PVE challenges. So if you can buy something that makes winning easier (the makes it require less skill) then that's P2W.
Personally I feel way too much attention is given to P2W, because it's almost nonexistent in MMORPGs, and meanwhile the vastly more common problem (games selling XP potions and then creating excessive, boring grinds to sell them) is mentioned less often. Neither the XP potion nor the grind are P2W, but it undeniably reduces the fun (because excessive repetition isn't fun).
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Using real money to purchase any in game advantage beyond a standard sub (any transaction that gives an edge for cash).
The impact of P2W stretches along a pretty big line... PvP advantages are much more impactful than buying an extra bag slot for PvE.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018