i agree. mmo(rpg! but not all mmos are rpg) as we know them in this era of videogaming.
still, it should be a possible scenario for the future, as lots of people don't like to invest long hours-weeks-months to spin the wheel, chasing a carrot (gear treadmill - increasing levels - new tiers)
a form of moba-like mmo, with no level-gear handicap, set in a open persistent world. not necessarily a rpg as we know it atm, but with a different kind of roleplay-ingame progression. That's what some of us want to play...something innovative, revolutionary
i agree. mmo(rpg! but not all mmos are rpg) as we know them in this era of videogaming.
still, it should be a possible scenario for the future, as lots of people don't like to invest long hours-weeks-months to spin the wheel, chasing a carrot (gear treadmill - increasing levels - new tiers)
a form of moba-like mmo, with no level-gear handicap, set in a open persistent world. not necessarily a rpg as we know it atm, but with a different kind of roleplay-ingame progression. That's what some of us want to play...something innovative, revolutionary
I want there to be so much progression in a game that I could never even know everything I could have, even after reading guide after guide, and grind after grind.
That being said I also want there to be a maximum power tier. Enforced through combinations of some skills nerfing other skills(IE need the right stats to use), gear requirements, hard counters, soft counters, and maybe even hard limits like only being able X skills at a time.
There are two games that achieve this Guild Wars 1, and EvE Online. It's such a shame that GW2 is just GuildWars in name.
_____________
I also don't bother with most PvPer in MMOs since you can find better elsewhere in MoBA/Dota-Alikes. Unless that PvPer is actually supported to achieve actual design goals, rather than checklist goals(IE: territory control/risk for reward, VS. "something to tell share holders you have"). The only real exceptions to the PvPer for the sake of it in an MMO that have been exception has been GW1(but in the arenas it was closer to a MoBA I guess).
Practice doesn't make perfect, practice makes permanent.
"At one point technology meant making tech that could get to the moon, now it means making tech that could get you a taxi."
I want there to be so much progression in a game that I could never even know everything I could have, even after reading guide after guide, and grind after grind.
That being said I also want there to be a maximum power tier. Enforced through combinations of some skills nerfing other skills(IE need the right stats to use), gear requirements, hard counters, soft counters, and maybe even hard limits like only being able X skills at a time.
There are two games that achieve this Guild Wars 1, and EvE Online. It's such a shame that GW2 is just GuildWars in name.
_____________
I also don't bother with most PvPer in MMOs since you can find better elsewhere in MoBA/Dota-Alikes. Unless that PvPer is actually supported to achieve actual design goals, rather than checklist goals(IE: territory control/risk for reward, VS. "something to tell share holders you have"). The only real exceptions to the PvPer for the sake of it in an MMO that have been exception has been GW1(but in the arenas it was closer to a MoBA I guess).
actually dota 2 is good, but..
there is no real good 3rd person moba.....only smite, but smite graphic/model is crappy
gain skills = become stronger is a design concept that can be interpreted in many ways. Whether it has anything to do with levels is up to the interpreter although the equation doesn't mention the word levels.
Talking about games where thousands of players exist simultaneously in a single instance and mechanics related to such games.
gain skills = become stronger is a design concept that can be interpreted in many ways. Whether it has anything to do with levels is up to the interpreter although the equation doesn't mention the word levels.
Lets just be honest about the concept of levels we're talking about and how it effects the game play or else it's just semantics.
A MMORPG where each level is a power platform, multiplier of stats and artificial better feed by experience from NPC or quest grinds is different and effects design concepts different than levelless games. Anything else is just muddled waters for debate and intellectually dishonest.
You have on one hand saying its the same and on the other claim it radically changes the game to impractical. It can't be both.
Steelhelm said: gain skills = become stronger, no levels needed.
That is levels.
Actually there is a difference. Gaining a power is not the same as gaining a multipliers and modifiers that take you out of range of play. I get tired of logic that they're the same thing. Its like saying in a MOBA when you gain a power you're suddenly untouchable by the people who don't.
Unless that power grants that sort of power its more shallow or horizontal progression. A level 10 in most games are untouchable to a level 1. Gaining fireball giving you AE over fireblast a single target isn't giving typical level like gains.
I would agree with Gdemami for once that getting more abilities does make you stronger and if the title of the topic was "THE CASE FOR MMOS WITH NO LEVELING OR POWER PROGRESSION WHATSOEVER PERIOD!!!" then he would have a very strong point.
However I believe I called this topic "The Case for MMO's with Little to No Leveling / Twinking" and because of that Gdemami is wrong once again.
Guild Wars 1 is specifically cited in the OP as a game that fits the bill past level 20 and past level 20 there are hundreds more abilities you can go find.
The reason I'm not ok with this is twofold. First you reach level 20 with enough abilities to run several effective builds. Second, none of the skills you get are inherently more powerful and you have to swap out old abilities to slot them. It just gives you more options, which arguably can lead to a stronger character, but the original skills you got were actually quite good. My main build on my main character ran 7 of 8 abilities that were acquired before level 20.
Compare this to a typical MMO. Within short order all your stats double, triple, quadruple, etc. You would think that makes you 2, 3, or 4 times stronger. So let's just say we'll do a low progression game where your stats all double.
Double health, double damage, double damage reduction, double mana/spirit/power/whatever, dodge chance etc. Does that sound like twice as strong to you? Because when you calculate all that together those stats feed into each other and make you ever stronger so that one player who is "twice" as strong is in reality able to take on 3 or 4 equally skilled newbs in a 1v3 or 1v4
Next to that, some more skills to choose from seems like pretty small potatoes.
gain skills = become stronger is a design concept that can be interpreted in many ways. Whether it has anything to do with levels is up to the interpreter although the equation doesn't mention the word levels.
Lets just be honest about the concept of levels we're talking about and how it effects the game play or else it's just semantics.
A MMORPG where each level is a power platform, multiplier of stats and artificial better feed by experience from NPC or quest grinds is different and effects design concepts different than levelless games. Anything else is just muddled waters for debate and intellectually dishonest.
You have on one hand saying its the same and on the other claim it radically changes the game to impractical. It can't be both.
For example in WoW you have item levels and character levels.
Talking about games where thousands of players exist simultaneously in a single instance and mechanics related to such games.
Steelhelm said: gain skills = become stronger, no levels needed.
That is levels.
Actually there is a difference. Gaining a power is not the same as gaining a multipliers and modifiers that take you out of range of play. I get tired of logic that they're the same thing. Its like saying in a MOBA when you gain a power you're suddenly untouchable by the people who don't.
Unless that power grants that sort of power its more shallow or horizontal progression. A level 10 in most games are untouchable to a level 1. Gaining fireball giving you AE over fireblast a single target isn't giving typical level like gains.
I would agree with Gdemami for once that getting more abilities does make you stronger and if the title of the topic was "THE CASE FOR MMOS WITH NO LEVELING OR POWER PROGRESSION WHATSOEVER PERIOD!!!" then he would have a very strong point.
That's highly dependent on the way abilities are implemented in a game.
For example, if there is a skill point total limit, then abilities used have to fall into an average range for one to slot and sue. The gaining of more abilities would not allow you to be stronger than your peers in any numeric sense, but would let you become more flexible and adaptable as you unlock more options.
It's as someone said prior the difference between vertical progression and horizontal progression.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
Steelhelm said: gain skills = become stronger, no levels needed.
That is levels.
Actually there is a difference. Gaining a power is not the same as gaining a multipliers and modifiers that take you out of range of play. I get tired of logic that they're the same thing. Its like saying in a MOBA when you gain a power you're suddenly untouchable by the people who don't.
Unless that power grants that sort of power its more shallow or horizontal progression. A level 10 in most games are untouchable to a level 1. Gaining fireball giving you AE over fireblast a single target isn't giving typical level like gains.
I would agree with Gdemami for once that getting more abilities does make you stronger and if the title of the topic was "THE CASE FOR MMOS WITH NO LEVELING OR POWER PROGRESSION WHATSOEVER PERIOD!!!" then he would have a very strong point.
That's highly dependent on the way abilities are implemented in a game.
For example, if there is a skill point total limit, then abilities used have to fall into an average range for one to slot and sue. The gaining of more abilities would not allow you to be stronger than your peers in any numeric sense, but would let you become more flexible and adaptable as you unlock more options.
It's as someone said prior the difference between vertical progression and horizontal progression.
You can also have mini vertical progressions that are regional based. Getting geared up for area A has little help in Area B which requires different gear. But you can complete A-Z in any order. That's not really possible in level based games unless levels are meaningless.
The levels people here are talking about require strick adherence to the script whatever that is unless you negate what levels are.
Steelhelm said: gain skills = become stronger, no levels needed.
That is levels.
Actually there is a difference. Gaining a power is not the same as gaining a multipliers and modifiers that take you out of range of play. I get tired of logic that they're the same thing. Its like saying in a MOBA when you gain a power you're suddenly untouchable by the people who don't.
Unless that power grants that sort of power its more shallow or horizontal progression. A level 10 in most games are untouchable to a level 1. Gaining fireball giving you AE over fireblast a single target isn't giving typical level like gains.
There is a difference. Grats on that. Normally we call that simply noticing something, but I feel you need some special praise. Levels, skills, points, etc, is called progression.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
Steelhelm said: gain skills = become stronger, no levels needed.
That is levels.
Actually there is a difference. Gaining a power is not the same as gaining a multipliers and modifiers that take you out of range of play. I get tired of logic that they're the same thing. Its like saying in a MOBA when you gain a power you're suddenly untouchable by the people who don't.
Unless that power grants that sort of power its more shallow or horizontal progression. A level 10 in most games are untouchable to a level 1. Gaining fireball giving you AE over fireblast a single target isn't giving typical level like gains.
There is a difference. Grats on that. Normally we call that simply noticing something, but I feel you need some special praise. Levels, skills, points, etc, is called progression.
Duh why don't you address the ones saying it's the same with your snarky nonsense. Nobody is asking for special recognitions just intellectual honesty.
Allow me to begin by explaining the problem. Nearly every MMO has the same form of content it seems. You join, level for what may be a small to large quantity of time, then after reaching max level your turn your focus to gear. Gear which is effectively a permanent part of your character until you replace it with an even better piece of gear. So the main focus of the vast majority of MMOs is strengthening your character's stats. (If games didn't employ this what reason would you have to play ? Sounds like you want a FPS.)
Why is This a Problem (PvE)
I join a new game. My friend already has a high level character with good gear in that game. I want to play together with my friend. If my friend comes back to do low level content with me, everything will be far too easy for him and I will end up running behind while he steamrolls everything, not really contributing at all, while he is not challenged at all. If I go do high level content with him, he will be challenged but I will get one shotted by anything that notices me. If we do something in between I will still be useless and he will still not be challenged. There is no content appropriate for two characters of vastly different power levels to enjoy together. Also, content now needs to be catered around specific levels. I have my level 20 areas and dungeons and my level 40 areas and dungeons. If everyone were on a similar power level then all content would be able to be enjoyed by everyone. You could even create specific areas and content to be extremely challenging and people couldn't just outlevel/outgear it.
(Many games utilize a mentoring system that allows you to play with high level friends. Companies are also having content adjust to your level. ESO for example allows you to play new content at any level.) Why is This a Problem (PvP)
I join a game wanting to PvP. Before I can PvP though, I need to slog through mass amounts of repetitive/boring PvE content to make my character strong enough. Or if I am lucky enough to be able to progress through PvP I need to get slaughtered over and over by high level / well geared character who have a massive stat advantage over me. I can't simply jump into the game and start having fun.
(You think its fair that say you've been playing said MMO for 2 years and some guy just installs & kicks your ass in pvp ? Thats stupid. Since DAOC they've had battlegrounds for all levels. GW2 they have SPVP and WVW both of which make you max level and streamline stats. Will you get owned by a veteran player yes.) So What? If You Want Fairness Why Not Play an FPS/MOBA/Whatever...
MMOs are more than stat progression. MMOs are massive worlds that offer chances to explore the world, randomly encounter other players but peacefully, and in random encounter Open World PvP. MMOs can feature meaningful crafting, and a greater variety of content. MMOs give you a chance to make a mark on a world inhabited by real players. Some MMOs even have deep politics with player created factions. Some people love and desire to take part in many or all of these things without being subjected to massive power disparities based on level and gear.
(Sounds increasingly like MMO's are wrong for you & should stick to first person shooters.) But We Need Leveling, Leveling is Content
This argument died with the success of EVE Online. While EVE does feature character progression, character progression is simply selecting the skills you want and watching them level over time, whether you are online or offline. It's leveling provides no content whatsoever. What it does offer is a rich world with a player driven economy and rich storylines generated by interaction between players. It's not Alliance vs. Horde. It's Band of Brother vs. Goon Swarm and how those major factions interact with all the other player created and lead factions in the game. EVE proves the fact that if you allow players to generate their own content they will create a world more interesting than grinding for levels. And while you could argue there is gear progression in EVE that creates a lot of content, that gear progression can always be reset to nothing when you get blown up and your ship/equipment all get blown up with you. EVE could exist without skills, especially combat related skills, and still be a great game. EVE is one of the only games that is still able to successfully charge 15$ a month and it does this with one of the most boring combat and crafting systems found in any MMO. (Eve is essentially a glorified chat filter where you spend countless hours grinding farming asteroids fighting pirate npc's. Its no different from fighting low level bats in WOW to level up. Different icing same cake.)
That's a PVP Game. What About PVE?
Well, take a look at the original Guild Wars. A few days of hard play and you have your character at max level with max gear effectiveness. But there is so much game left after that point. You go around collecting new skills which are not inherently more powerful than the old ones, and cooler looking gear. Players still were motivated to go out and play past max level, and GW ended up being a wildly popular game despite the complete lack of an open world, any sandbox features whatsoever, or crafting. Features that could have made it even more compelling as a long term title.
Conclusion
We need more MMOs with less progression. Games where gear isn't permanent or level locked, and where we don't need to kill 1000 goblins to get the next level. Games designed to be fun from the moment you hop in and start playing, and that allow you to play with any of your friends and have fun, but that still have a rich MMO world to explore and take part in.
(After awhile games with no progression get boring because you have nothing to really work towards. Thats my opinion. In GW2 you were essentially the same as every other 80 in vanilla other then build. It got boring after awhile. WVW was stagnant from the get go. People jumped to whatever server was winning there was no challenge. All you worked for was cosmetic changes to your character. Thats why they added progression to a certain extent with ascended items.)
1. I would have the same reason to play MMOs I already do. To take part in a massive world with hundreds or thousands of other players. To build meaningful player associations and enjoy accomplishing things together such as building cities, working together to defeat challenging dungeons, or engaging in massive scale conflicts against other player factions. ALL of which is possible without leveling and even hindered by the existence of leveling. That kind of content is it's own reward for me. If you actually lead a boring enough life that your reason for playing is simply to watch your character level go *ding*, *ding*, *ding* then I pity you.
2. Cool. So name for me an FPS that has hundreds or thousands of players competing in an open world format over meaningful objectives such as territory controlled by player made factions. Planetside 2 comes the closest but in actuality is shallow because it fails to make players truly care about the land they control of the factions they fight for in a way games with player controlled factions where you fight over resources such as Darkfall, EVE, or Mortal do. To be clear if you took away leveling from those games, fixed the bugs, and gave them a engaging (unlike EVE) and smoothly functioning combat system (Unlike Darkfall and Mortal) any of them could be my ideal MMO. To date the original Darkfall was my favorite MMO I've ever played and 90% of my problem with it was the 2+ year grind time for anyone who didn't macro.
3. If you have been playing a game for 2 years and someone installs and kicks your butt. You deserve it. You should have been using those two years of play to build player skills instead of character stats. I'm sorry you are so bad at PvP you feel you need a crutch to win any fights. You should probably just not PvP if you are truly that terrible at it.
I am not suggesting no progression. Just get progression out of the way of the multiplayer experience. There are a ton of MMORPG activities to do but MMORPG are all focused on questing and vast vertival progression which is done better in a single player or just multiplayer environment.
The vertical progression is just a time sink and excuse for content that doesn't involve managing player interactions.
Sure you can,with something more plausible and sensible>>>>aging. Then you add in skills and just like in real life,you LEARN and get smarter over time,gain access to new skills and knowledge,new ideas you never thought of before. I have already seen decent implementation,the only fix i would implement is to design a more complex formula around skill leveling.Just a quick thought would be to actually lose skill points if constantly making bad decisions or missing obvious opportunities,in other words playing your class badly. I do not accept any excuse as to why such a formula could not be implemented because i have no desire to game with people who want things handed on a silver platter.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Sure you can,with something more plausible and sensible>>>>aging. Then you add in skills and just like in real life,you LEARN and get smarter over time,gain access to new skills and knowledge,new ideas you never thought of before. I have already seen decent implementation,the only fix i would implement is to design a more complex formula around skill leveling.Just a quick thought would be to actually lose skill points if constantly making bad decisions or missing obvious opportunities,in other words playing your class badly. I do not accept any excuse as to why such a formula could not be implemented because i have no desire to game with people who want things handed on a silver platter.
That's a poor model because you ultimately get weaker and die....
TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development
Sure you can,with something more plausible and sensible>>>>aging. Then you add in skills and just like in real life,you LEARN and get smarter over time,gain access to new skills and knowledge,new ideas you never thought of before. I have already seen decent implementation,the only fix i would implement is to design a more complex formula around skill leveling.Just a quick thought would be to actually lose skill points if constantly making bad decisions or missing obvious opportunities,in other words playing your class badly. I do not accept any excuse as to why such a formula could not be implemented because i have no desire to game with people who want things handed on a silver platter.
That's a poor model because you ultimately get weaker and die....
I could see blood lines pulled off well. The fame sticks to your family, NPCs recognize your blood line and get you up faster(better/more accessible quests), any corruption/blessings are passed down, being able to raise stronger children(start them with better/earlier training), being able to pull the strengths of NPCs/Players through marriage(get a royal bloodline or get more bloodline benefits), Slowly building up a legendary item as it's passed down your bloodline(Screw stealing something make it), and I don't really know what else I'm barely trying with these mechanics.
Practice doesn't make perfect, practice makes permanent.
"At one point technology meant making tech that could get to the moon, now it means making tech that could get you a taxi."
Sure you can,with something more plausible and sensible>>>>aging. Then you add in skills and just like in real life,you LEARN and get smarter over time,gain access to new skills and knowledge,new ideas you never thought of before. I have already seen decent implementation,the only fix i would implement is to design a more complex formula around skill leveling.Just a quick thought would be to actually lose skill points if constantly making bad decisions or missing obvious opportunities,in other words playing your class badly. I do not accept any excuse as to why such a formula could not be implemented because i have no desire to game with people who want things handed on a silver platter.
That's a poor model because you ultimately get weaker and die....
I could see blood lines pulled off well. The fame sticks to your family, NPCs recognize your blood line and get you up faster(better/more accessible quests), any corruption/blessings are passed down, being able to raise stronger children(start them with better/earlier training), being able to pull the strengths of NPCs/Players through marriage(get a royal bloodline or get more bloodline benefits), Slowly building up a legendary item as it's passed down your bloodline(Screw stealing something make it), and I don't really know what else I'm barely trying with these mechanics.
Trust the mmorpg.com community to go from removing levels, to regression and perma-death.
Whilst i see the merit in that system its also extreme.
TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development
Sure you can,with something more plausible and sensible>>>>aging. Then you add in skills and just like in real life,you LEARN and get smarter over time,gain access to new skills and knowledge,new ideas you never thought of before. I have already seen decent implementation,the only fix i would implement is to design a more complex formula around skill leveling.Just a quick thought would be to actually lose skill points if constantly making bad decisions or missing obvious opportunities,in other words playing your class badly. I do not accept any excuse as to why such a formula could not be implemented because i have no desire to game with people who want things handed on a silver platter.
That's a poor model because you ultimately get weaker and die....
I could see blood lines pulled off well. The fame sticks to your family, NPCs recognize your blood line and get you up faster(better/more accessible quests), any corruption/blessings are passed down, being able to raise stronger children(start them with better/earlier training), being able to pull the strengths of NPCs/Players through marriage(get a royal bloodline or get more bloodline benefits), Slowly building up a legendary item as it's passed down your bloodline(Screw stealing something make it), and I don't really know what else I'm barely trying with these mechanics.
Trust the mmorpg.com community to go from removing levels, to regression and perma-death.
Whilst i see the merit in that system its also extreme.
cant even fix AI difficulty but want perma death..gg
1. I would have the same reason to play MMOs I already do. To take part in a massive world with hundreds or thousands of other players. To build meaningful player associations and enjoy accomplishing things together such as building cities, working together to defeat challenging dungeons, or engaging in massive scale conflicts against other player factions. ALL of which is possible without leveling and even hindered by the existence of leveling. That kind of content is it's own reward for me. If you actually lead a boring enough life that your reason for playing is simply to watch your character level go *ding*, *ding*, *ding* then I pity you.
2. Cool. So name for me an FPS that has hundreds or thousands of players competing in an open world format over meaningful objectives such as territory controlled by player made factions. Planetside 2 comes the closest but in actuality is shallow because it fails to make players truly care about the land they control of the factions they fight for in a way games with player controlled factions where you fight over resources such as Darkfall, EVE, or Mortal do. To be clear if you took away leveling from those games, fixed the bugs, and gave them a engaging (unlike EVE) and smoothly functioning combat system (Unlike Darkfall and Mortal) any of them could be my ideal MMO. To date the original Darkfall was my favorite MMO I've ever played and 90% of my problem with it was the 2+ year grind time for anyone who didn't macro.
3. If you have been playing a game for 2 years and someone installs and kicks your butt. You deserve it. You should have been using those two years of play to build player skills instead of character stats. I'm sorry you are so bad at PvP you feel you need a crutch to win any fights. You should probably just not PvP if you are truly that terrible at it.
i used to think like you.
then i try to think like the game developer..
yes massive pvp 200 vs 200 with no level scale will be fun!!
then the pvp would be 24/7 right? sound super fun!!
but how to balance this? especially if its a 24/7 war controlled zone/castle/points
level difference in pve actually give the game developer money/income
that is pay to win, some rich players would paid thousands to be stronger than other players.
just give those 200 vs 200 in pve/world vs world to high leveled pay to win players
for competitive players,
i give a lobby matchmaking ranked game, like spvp in gw2, like most moba.
instead of 5vs5, increase it to 10 vs 10, or 20 vs 20, in a game with duration of 15 minutes to 1 hour (or depends, like dota 2, lol)
its more competitive
200 vs 200 24/7 war sound fun but no way to balance it, in the end, player who grind (play longer) the most will win.
in the end, the 24/7 war will be completely lose or completely won, meaning there will be no reason to fight,
example, you play 3 hours a day, some grinders crazy go 9 hours a day, sacrificing their sleep just to win, it will be bad for his own health and for the balance of the game. he will captures all the points at night.
grinders is not beneficial for game developer
instead, game developer make pay to win systems that makes the rich win and that also beneficial for the games.
Sure you can,with something more plausible and sensible>>>>aging. Then you add in skills and just like in real life,you LEARN and get smarter over time,gain access to new skills and knowledge,new ideas you never thought of before. I have already seen decent implementation,the only fix i would implement is to design a more complex formula around skill leveling.Just a quick thought would be to actually lose skill points if constantly making bad decisions or missing obvious opportunities,in other words playing your class badly. I do not accept any excuse as to why such a formula could not be implemented because i have no desire to game with people who want things handed on a silver platter.
That's a poor model because you ultimately get weaker and die....
I could see blood lines pulled off well. The fame sticks to your family, NPCs recognize your blood line and get you up faster(better/more accessible quests), any corruption/blessings are passed down, being able to raise stronger children(start them with better/earlier training), being able to pull the strengths of NPCs/Players through marriage(get a royal bloodline or get more bloodline benefits), Slowly building up a legendary item as it's passed down your bloodline(Screw stealing something make it), and I don't really know what else I'm barely trying with these mechanics.
Trust the mmorpg.com community to go from removing levels, to regression and perma-death.
Whilst i see the merit in that system its also extreme.
Not necessarily perma-death, since I'm not against infinite rejuvenation's(or age just stay at a strong/overpowered 40, until you let the story advance it). Just strongly encouraged to eventually move onto a new character, as they gain access to new/different mechanics your old one didn't have access to.
Practice doesn't make perfect, practice makes permanent.
"At one point technology meant making tech that could get to the moon, now it means making tech that could get you a taxi."
I definitely do not want a game that is 200 vs. 200 players constantly fighting all the time. That's essentially Plantside/Planetside 2 which while fun for a short while, lack the depth I need for long term interest.
I like harvesting, crafting, engaging PvE, and especially building and fortifying player holdings. Those are all things you see in my absolute favorite MMOs. The issue I take exception to is how the point of the game is player politics and conflicts between players but you are just constantly leveling to catch up to veteran players anywhere from a couple months to a couple years depending on the game. Most of the PvP you see is bored no skill veterans with half their skills maxed going to the low level spawns to just screw with you, and you live for those very seldom newb vs. newb fights where you don't get shut down by someone who has over twice your health, is armored as heck, and takes a quarter of your health with each hit while you have to land like 20 hits to kill them.
Entirely skipping that portion of the game by removing character stats (Levels) and any form of gear not lost upon death / that does not degrade to nothing of the course of a couple hours of heavy use would do nothing but increase new-player retention and piss off a small portion old veterans who need to have the crutch of character stats to compete.
You can (and definitely should) still leave in the ability to swap around skills in your build, and possibly even earn skills that are equally powerful but different than older skills you can swap in and out of your build if desired. However all traditional form of vertical progression (Increased health, increased damage, increased damage reduction etc.) should be entirely tied to this very temporary gear.
I do not believe I am describing an MMO that will everyone will want to play or that will reach anything near to WoW level popularity but I believe I am describing a model that could certainly be a significant player in the MMO market if done well.
Comments
still, it should be a possible scenario for the future, as lots of people don't like to invest long hours-weeks-months to spin the wheel, chasing a carrot (gear treadmill - increasing levels - new tiers)
a form of moba-like mmo, with no level-gear handicap, set in a open persistent world. not necessarily a rpg as we know it atm, but with a different kind of roleplay-ingame progression.
That's what some of us want to play...something innovative, revolutionary
i also suggesting that
mmorpg need spvp map like gw2
That being said I also want there to be a maximum power tier. Enforced through combinations of some skills nerfing other skills(IE need the right stats to use), gear requirements, hard counters, soft counters, and maybe even hard limits like only being able X skills at a time.
There are two games that achieve this Guild Wars 1, and EvE Online. It's such a shame that GW2 is just GuildWars in name.
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I also don't bother with most PvPer in MMOs since you can find better elsewhere in MoBA/Dota-Alikes. Unless that PvPer is actually supported to achieve actual design goals, rather than checklist goals(IE: territory control/risk for reward, VS. "something to tell share holders you have"). The only real exceptions to the PvPer for the sake of it in an MMO that have been exception has been GW1(but in the arenas it was closer to a MoBA I guess).
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there is no real good 3rd person moba.....only smite, but smite graphic/model is crappy
A MMORPG where each level is a power platform, multiplier of stats and artificial better feed by experience from NPC or quest grinds is different and effects design concepts different than levelless games. Anything else is just muddled waters for debate and intellectually dishonest.
You have on one hand saying its the same and on the other claim it radically changes the game to impractical. It can't be both.
However I believe I called this topic "The Case for MMO's with Little to No Leveling / Twinking" and because of that Gdemami is wrong once again.
Guild Wars 1 is specifically cited in the OP as a game that fits the bill past level 20 and past level 20 there are hundreds more abilities you can go find.
The reason I'm not ok with this is twofold. First you reach level 20 with enough abilities to run several effective builds. Second, none of the skills you get are inherently more powerful and you have to swap out old abilities to slot them. It just gives you more options, which arguably can lead to a stronger character, but the original skills you got were actually quite good. My main build on my main character ran 7 of 8 abilities that were acquired before level 20.
Compare this to a typical MMO. Within short order all your stats double, triple, quadruple, etc. You would think that makes you 2, 3, or 4 times stronger. So let's just say we'll do a low progression game where your stats all double.
Double health, double damage, double damage reduction, double mana/spirit/power/whatever, dodge chance etc. Does that sound like twice as strong to you? Because when you calculate all that together those stats feed into each other and make you ever stronger so that one player who is "twice" as strong is in reality able to take on 3 or 4 equally skilled newbs in a 1v3 or 1v4
Next to that, some more skills to choose from seems like pretty small potatoes.
For example, if there is a skill point total limit, then abilities used have to fall into an average range for one to slot and sue. The gaining of more abilities would not allow you to be stronger than your peers in any numeric sense, but would let you become more flexible and adaptable as you unlock more options.
It's as someone said prior the difference between vertical progression and horizontal progression.
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The levels people here are talking about require strick adherence to the script whatever that is unless you negate what levels are.
There is a difference. Grats on that. Normally we call that simply noticing something, but I feel you need some special praise. Levels, skills, points, etc, is called progression.
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Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
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1. I would have the same reason to play MMOs I already do. To take part in a massive world with hundreds or thousands of other players. To build meaningful player associations and enjoy accomplishing things together such as building cities, working together to defeat challenging dungeons, or engaging in massive scale conflicts against other player factions. ALL of which is possible without leveling and even hindered by the existence of leveling. That kind of content is it's own reward for me. If you actually lead a boring enough life that your reason for playing is simply to watch your character level go *ding*, *ding*, *ding* then I pity you.
2. Cool. So name for me an FPS that has hundreds or thousands of players competing in an open world format over meaningful objectives such as territory controlled by player made factions. Planetside 2 comes the closest but in actuality is shallow because it fails to make players truly care about the land they control of the factions they fight for in a way games with player controlled factions where you fight over resources such as Darkfall, EVE, or Mortal do. To be clear if you took away leveling from those games, fixed the bugs, and gave them a engaging (unlike EVE) and smoothly functioning combat system (Unlike Darkfall and Mortal) any of them could be my ideal MMO. To date the original Darkfall was my favorite MMO I've ever played and 90% of my problem with it was the 2+ year grind time for anyone who didn't macro.
3. If you have been playing a game for 2 years and someone installs and kicks your butt. You deserve it. You should have been using those two years of play to build player skills instead of character stats. I'm sorry you are so bad at PvP you feel you need a crutch to win any fights. You should probably just not PvP if you are truly that terrible at it.
The vertical progression is just a time sink and excuse for content that doesn't involve managing player interactions.
Then you add in skills and just like in real life,you LEARN and get smarter over time,gain access to new skills and knowledge,new ideas you never thought of before.
I have already seen decent implementation,the only fix i would implement is to design a more complex formula around skill leveling.Just a quick thought would be to actually lose skill points if constantly making bad decisions or missing obvious opportunities,in other words playing your class badly.
I do not accept any excuse as to why such a formula could not be implemented because i have no desire to game with people who want things handed on a silver platter.
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Practice doesn't make perfect, practice makes permanent.
"At one point technology meant making tech that could get to the moon, now it means making tech that could get you a taxi."
Trust the mmorpg.com community to go from removing levels, to regression and perma-death.
Whilst i see the merit in that system its also extreme.
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then i try to think like the game developer..
yes massive pvp 200 vs 200 with no level scale will be fun!!
then the pvp would be 24/7 right? sound super fun!!
but how to balance this? especially if its a 24/7 war controlled zone/castle/points
level difference in pve actually give the game developer money/income
that is pay to win, some rich players would paid thousands to be stronger than other players.
just give those 200 vs 200 in pve/world vs world to high leveled pay to win players
for competitive players,
i give a lobby matchmaking ranked game, like spvp in gw2, like most moba.
instead of 5vs5, increase it to 10 vs 10, or 20 vs 20, in a game with duration of 15 minutes to 1 hour (or depends, like dota 2, lol)
its more competitive
200 vs 200 24/7 war sound fun but no way to balance it, in the end, player who grind (play longer) the most will win.
in the end, the 24/7 war will be completely lose or completely won, meaning there will be no reason to fight,
example, you play 3 hours a day, some grinders crazy go 9 hours a day, sacrificing their sleep just to win, it will be bad for his own health and for the balance of the game. he will captures all the points at night.
grinders is not beneficial for game developer
instead, game developer make pay to win systems that makes the rich win and that also beneficial for the games.
Practice doesn't make perfect, practice makes permanent.
"At one point technology meant making tech that could get to the moon, now it means making tech that could get you a taxi."
I definitely do not want a game that is 200 vs. 200 players constantly fighting all the time. That's essentially Plantside/Planetside 2 which while fun for a short while, lack the depth I need for long term interest.
I like harvesting, crafting, engaging PvE, and especially building and fortifying player holdings. Those are all things you see in my absolute favorite MMOs. The issue I take exception to is how the point of the game is player politics and conflicts between players but you are just constantly leveling to catch up to veteran players anywhere from a couple months to a couple years depending on the game. Most of the PvP you see is bored no skill veterans with half their skills maxed going to the low level spawns to just screw with you, and you live for those very seldom newb vs. newb fights where you don't get shut down by someone who has over twice your health, is armored as heck, and takes a quarter of your health with each hit while you have to land like 20 hits to kill them.
Entirely skipping that portion of the game by removing character stats (Levels) and any form of gear not lost upon death / that does not degrade to nothing of the course of a couple hours of heavy use would do nothing but increase new-player retention and piss off a small portion old veterans who need to have the crutch of character stats to compete.
You can (and definitely should) still leave in the ability to swap around skills in your build, and possibly even earn skills that are equally powerful but different than older skills you can swap in and out of your build if desired. However all traditional form of vertical progression (Increased health, increased damage, increased damage reduction etc.) should be entirely tied to this very temporary gear.
I do not believe I am describing an MMO that will everyone will want to play or that will reach anything near to WoW level popularity but I believe I am describing a model that could certainly be a significant player in the MMO market if done well.