I agree. Yet the list of features cut can be added later. Anyone thinking multiplayer was going to be a thing was just being silly. We knew in 2014 multiplayer chance was near zero. With that many planets in a universe that large? Finding another actual player would be near miracle level.
Near miracle or not, Sean clearly stated on several occasions within a few months before release, that you CAN play with and see other players. The chances of it happening, being as low as they are, especially as quickly as it happened, he most likely said so expecting that by the time it happens they would have it patched in. He then even claimed that they probably couldnt see eachother because of "server issues" and "too many people playing".
If he had been upfront about it when asked things like "Can you see other players?" and just admitted "Not at the moment, but we might add it later" there would be no room for complaint, but instead he repeatedly confirmed that it is in the game, and even went into detail about how there are basically instances of an area which can hold a few players together, how he didnt want to give numbers because then people would want to push those limits, etc.
It would be like an FPS developer claiming that their new game has online multiplayer matches, then a day or 2 before launch going "Just kidding guys. It's only a single player campaign with leaderboards for kills and stuff!"
No matter how anyone tries to spin it, or what the goal of the game is, or how much "it isn't Destiny" the fact remains that Sean said multiplayer IS a feature. Not maybe, or possibly, or it could be, or we want it to be, or not yet but later. A very clear "Yes". He tried to add some "but the chances... blah blah blah" in there, but the thing is there is no "but" about it. Either you can or cannot see and play with people. There's no grey area here. Either the feature is in or it isnt. He said it is, which was a flat out lie.
Was it intentional? We will never know, but the failed promises are numerous and especially when you hear them on national TV it is pretty cringworthy.
They should have been upfront about the state of the game at launch and addressed all the broken/missing features that were promised.
This.
My gut level reaction (may be wrong, of course) is that he was lying (misrepresenting). I'm thinking of the questions he was asked about being able to see other players and whether griefing was possible. He did later come out and say on twitter clearly that there was no multiplayer, but it was pretty much at the last minute before release.
Perhaps but a ton of people still enjoy the game as it is and the developers will more than likely patch content into the game as the content is finished. Sony, the publisher, pushed the game out the door before it was ready. That is a publisher issue, not a developer issue.
I played it for 40 hours. I enjoyed what was there. That doesn't mean I'm going to make up excuses for Sean Murry. What he described is not what was in the box.
"You CAN'T buy ships for RL money." - MaxBacon
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Perhaps but a ton of people still enjoy the game as it is and the developers will more than likely patch content into the game as the content is finished. Sony, the publisher, pushed the game out the door before it was ready. That is a publisher issue, not a developer issue.
Correct, however there are two proper ways to handle that:
A the FFIV route: release has been pushed to <enter here> deal with it
or
B Jumpgate route: Sorry folks we wont be able to include feature <insert here> at launch we may, or may not come back to it at a later date
Not
C splat your pitch on large number of cable shows, new sites, games sites etcetera. Create a huge public media presence (not to be confused with 3rd party hype) promising certain features, promo videos 1 month before launch(when unless your a moron your feature complete and all cutting has already been done) showing a game significantly different than the build you got back at the office. Then hours before launch drop a couple isolated and obscure tweets not even making a credible attempt to reach the people you previously false adverted. And you wonder why there is blowback?
And it is a developer issue if the developer is the one who delivers multiple (and I do mean multiple NMS was everywhere) statements . Promising things less than a month out you KNOW weren't to be in the final build. This is a developers reputation, there is no legal way(in any western country) Sony or any other publisher can enforce a developer to make a false public statement(or statements) or penalize a developer for refusing to make such.
EDIT a developer can keep their **** mouth shut and let the pub carry the PR heavy lifting(and any blowback), be honest and factual, or lie out their ___. That is the developers choice and issue not the publishers.
However...to be completely frank for a game of this kind 14 developers is a LARGE team, not a small team. For a AAA company that doesnt know its ass from a hole in the ground half the time 14 would be a small team. Some are looking at this game developer size from the perspective of a AAA firm with nearly zero knowedge about the indie market so they assume 14 is small when in fact in the indie universe that is huge
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Perhaps but a ton of people still enjoy the game as it is and the developers will more than likely patch content into the game as the content is finished. Sony, the publisher, pushed the game out the door before it was ready. That is a publisher issue, not a developer issue.
I played it for 40 hours. I enjoyed what was there. That doesn't mean I'm going to make up excuses for Sean Murry. What he described is not what was in the box.
I haven't played it yet. It is in my house, but it has two children to go through before it gets to me.
That being said, and with all honesty, can you imagine how much better our society would be if we actually held people accountable the way that gamers do? I mean gamers never really DO anything about it, but I'm just saying, we do tend to make a lot of noise.
However...to be completely frank for a game of this kind 14 developers is a LARGE team, not a small team. For a AAA company that doesnt know its ass from a hole in the ground half the time 14 would be a small team. Some are looking at this game developer size from the perspective of a AAA firm with nearly zero knowedge about the indie market so they assume 14 is small when in fact in the indie universe that is huge
Like Space Engineers with 50 people or Kerbal Space Program with 25+
really I did not know space engineers has 50 developers or KSP had 25. that is a lot. I need to look into that, far more then I thought would you happen to have any reference? first googles appears like my search might get painful.
I am extreemly curious now because of SE has 50 developers that is great we can expect some amazing improvements over the next year. i dont think its true though still looking.
Its appears that perphaps most of those developers at Keen are working on the RD project not related to SE. On KSP I dont even have to look it up because I know, Squad is not a game developer studio. KSP was a project within that company so clearly they need to keep developers on staff to do their existing contracts that are not related to KSP at all. If 50 developers were working on SE that would be extreemly exciting news
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Perhaps but a ton of people still enjoy the game as it is and the developers will more than likely patch content into the game as the content is finished. Sony, the publisher, pushed the game out the door before it was ready. That is a publisher issue, not a developer issue.
I played it for 40 hours. I enjoyed what was there. That doesn't mean I'm going to make up excuses for Sean Murry. What he described is not what was in the box.
I haven't played it yet. It is in my house, but it has two children to go through before it gets to me.
That being said, and with all honesty, can you imagine how much better our society would be if we actually held people accountable the way that gamers do? I mean gamers never really DO anything about it, but I'm just saying, we do tend to make a lot of noise.
Think about how much better our society would be if gamers held ourselves to our own standards.
I would have given you an awesome AND agree, but it doesn't let me do that.
Totally true..... without going all political, DT makes this 2nd amendment comment and people be like, "Yeah, I see that, that's totally what he meant. It wasn't malicious at all because he said he didn't mean it that way" Meanwhile, back at the ranch, some random software developer makes comments about multiplayer, even though it's been CLEARLY stated for 2 years that it's not multiplayer, and people are going fucking nuts! It's like,
Gamer: "You said fucking multiplayer SEAN!!! You fucking liar!!" Sean: "No, I said specifically it wouldn't have multiplayer." Gamer: "See!! You just said multiplayer!! You fucking liar!!" Sean: "I really don't know how I can be more clear with this explanation. There is no multipl...." Gamer: "See! Again! You fucking liar!!!!"
However...to be completely frank for a game of this kind 14 developers is a LARGE team, not a small team. For a AAA company that doesnt know its ass from a hole in the ground half the time 14 would be a small team. Some are looking at this game developer size from the perspective of a AAA firm with nearly zero knowedge about the indie market so they assume 14 is small when in fact in the indie universe that is huge
Like Space Engineers with 50 people or Kerbal Space Program with 25+
really I did not know space engineers has 50 developers or KSP had 25. that is a lot. I need to look into that, far more then I thought would you happen to have any reference? first googles appears like my search might get painful.
I am extreemly curious now because of SE has 50 developers that is great we can expect some amazing improvements over the next year. i dont think its true though still looking
As far as KSP keep in mind very few were there the whole time. More than a few were brought in from it's mudding modding community. I want to say the majority, but I have nothing to back that up. A comparative few made a living (at the time) as game developers. There were probably a few times during development /post launch they broke 20 people, likely just as many when it was around 10. KSP is/was kind of an outlier as far as development process goes. A lot of it's concepts began life as mods, when KSP brought in those concepts they often pulled the creators with them to implement. EDIT As an EA title it had the freedom to "source out" like that along with "looser" deadlines unlike a complete in-house project such as NMS.
However...to be completely frank for a game of this kind 14 developers is a LARGE team, not a small team. For a AAA company that doesnt know its ass from a hole in the ground half the time 14 would be a small team. Some are looking at this game developer size from the perspective of a AAA firm with nearly zero knowedge about the indie market so they assume 14 is small when in fact in the indie universe that is huge
Like Space Engineers with 50 people or Kerbal Space Program with 25+
really I did not know space engineers has 50 developers or KSP had 25. that is a lot. I need to look into that, far more then I thought would you happen to have any reference? first googles appears like my search might get painful.
I am extreemly curious now because of SE has 50 developers that is great we can expect some amazing improvements over the next year. i dont think its true though still looking
As far as KSP keep in mind very few were there the whole time. More than a few were brought in from it's mudding modding community and a comparative few made a living (at the time) as game developers. There were probably a few times during development /post launch they broke 20 people, likely just as many when it was around 10. KSP is/was kind of an outlier as far as development process goes.
depends on where those numbers came from.
Squad started the idea that if someone had a great idea within the company regardless of what industry it was in that they would do it. Squad is NOT a game developer studio, KSP was one of these projects. So if one looks at the size of Squad its going to be a lot larger then the developers working on KSP itself.
SE it appears has a branched off project that is not related to gaming (although I wonder where the money is coming from!) so looking at SE employement figures isnt accurate either.
regardless as a SE fan who is looking for some improvements in that game I would be excited if it had 50 developers currently working on the project.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
I'm a big fan of NMS, but my post history over the last year contains numerous posts where I criticised Sean Murray's "evasive" style in interviews.
He almost never gave a straight answer to any of the specific questions. It was bound to lead to trouble, and it did. Spectacularly !
Whatever the reason for the discrepancy between what was shown and said in demo's (from 2014 and 2015), Hello Games had a responsibility to inform gamers of feature cuts. It was pretty obvious what people were expecting, a quick read of the Reddit sub would have made that abundantly clear.
I have no idea of the contractual arrangement between Sony and HG. I don't know if HG "sold their souls" and are now prevented from saying anything that may impact Sony's revenue from their "PS4 exclusive" deal.
Perhaps HG are the biggest scammers in recent gaming history. Or perhaps they are naive innocents who got railroaded by Sony's marketing division...
We'll probably never know the truth. I just hope that HG continue to work on NMS and make into a product that can entertain more than just the diehard fans on /r/NoMansHigh, lol
I'm a big fan of NMS, but my post history over the last year contains numerous posts where I criticised Sean Murray's "evasive" style in interviews.
He almost never gave a straight answer to any of the specific questions. It was bound to lead to trouble, and it did. Spectacularly !
Whatever the reason for the discrepancy between what was shown and said in demo's (from 2014 and 2015), Hello Games had a responsibility to inform gamers of feature cuts. It was pretty obvious what people were expecting, a quick read of the Reddit sub would have made that abundantly clear.
I have no idea of the contractual arrangement between Sony and HG. I don't know if HG "sold their souls" and are now prevented from saying anything that may impact Sony's revenue from their "PS4 exclusive" deal.
Perhaps HG are the biggest scammers in recent gaming history. Or perhaps they are naive innocents who got railroaded by Sony's marketing division...
We'll probably never know the truth. I just hope that HG continue to work on NMS and make into a product that can entertain more than just the diehard fans on /r/NoMansHigh, lol
the main objective is to secure credit card charges. once those charges are completed and can not reversed then at point no fucks are given.
They dont have to inform gamers on features cut when they didnt mention any solid features to begin with. the perfect obfuscation
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
However...to be completely frank for a game of this kind 14 developers is a LARGE team, not a small team. For a AAA company that doesnt know its ass from a hole in the ground half the time 14 would be a small team. Some are looking at this game developer size from the perspective of a AAA firm with nearly zero knowedge about the indie market so they assume 14 is small when in fact in the indie universe that is huge
Like Space Engineers with 50 people or Kerbal Space Program with 25+
really I did not know space engineers has 50 developers or KSP had 25. that is a lot. I need to look into that, far more then I thought would you happen to have any reference? first googles appears like my search might get painful.
I am extreemly curious now because of SE has 50 developers that is great we can expect some amazing improvements over the next year. i dont think its true though still looking.
Its appears that perphaps most of those developers at Keen are working on the RD project not related to SE. On KSP I dont even have to look it up because I know, Squad is not a game developer studio. KSP was a project within that company so clearly they need to keep developers on staff to do their existing contracts that are not related to KSP at all. If 50 developers were working on SE that would be extreemly exciting news
Looks like SE has 30 in the games development and 20 in the AI development That was a little over a year ago with the CEO stating they are hiring more people for the teams So it looks like the 50 number is about right. They are even still hiring a few more people.
Now, Falanghe leads a team that has employed some 25 people all told,
and is knee-deep in development on a game that allows players to create
and manage their own space program, by building and flying spacecraft,
and trying to help the beloved Kerbals fulfill their ultimate mission of
conquering space. Suffice to say, it’s a long way from firing off
explosives in the back yard.
sorry I had a unwarrent rage post so this is my correction
Keen Software has 20 developer working on an AI project that is NOT related to SE.
Squad is not a game developer studio KSP was a project within the company but they continued operations. so unless it states all new hires are working explicitly on said project then its very possible they are not. With that said the article is pretty clear that 25 are for that one team which is huge in my mind
I would LOVE to have 50 developers on SE but it appears its more like 10 between both SE and ME
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
As someone who followed the development of this game for a very long time I can tell you without a doubt that they indeed at one time intend to have you at least be able to see other players and their ships.
At around 7:05 of the video below (from June 2015,) Sean clearly describes some ships landing on a platform as possibly AI "or they could be other players."
When and why that changed I don't know but it obviously did in the version recently released. I have no idea when was the last time they said you could see other players and their ships. All of the "proof of lying" videos about this that I have seen, seem to be from around that same time.
So that was dropped during development but I ain't buying the "deliberately lied to us" hysterics. It also was never a feature of the game that I gave much of a crap about. Everything I play does not need to be multiplayer,
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
I haven't been following the game too much, but if you say something like,
"the only way to know what you look like is for another player to see you." on the Late Show, there better actually be some form of multiplayer possibility in the game.
If there's no player modeling in the game and actually no multiplayer possibility, you really should not say stuff like that.
If you worked on multiplayer and something happened right before release making it impossible, tell people that. Otherwise people have no choice but to assume that multiplayer concept was a straight up lie.
There problem doesn't seem to be so much overselling the game as it is not being up front and communicating what the issues are on their end. The silence is more damaging then anything. They are probably working hard on fixing bugs and such which is great but it is not 100% of "why people are complaining" there is a PR side to a game this big and if you ignore it no one will be playing your game at all by the time you push out those bug fixes.
Comments
If he had been upfront about it when asked things like "Can you see other players?" and just admitted "Not at the moment, but we might add it later" there would be no room for complaint, but instead he repeatedly confirmed that it is in the game, and even went into detail about how there are basically instances of an area which can hold a few players together, how he didnt want to give numbers because then people would want to push those limits, etc.
It would be like an FPS developer claiming that their new game has online multiplayer matches, then a day or 2 before launch going "Just kidding guys. It's only a single player campaign with leaderboards for kills and stuff!"
No matter how anyone tries to spin it, or what the goal of the game is, or how much "it isn't Destiny" the fact remains that Sean said multiplayer IS a feature. Not maybe, or possibly, or it could be, or we want it to be, or not yet but later. A very clear "Yes". He tried to add some "but the chances... blah blah blah" in there, but the thing is there is no "but" about it. Either you can or cannot see and play with people. There's no grey area here. Either the feature is in or it isnt. He said it is, which was a flat out lie.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AE0nuW-mQ8A
That video nails it.
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
The game he described is not what people are playing. Tons of stuff simply is not there. There is a huge reddit list ffs.
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/Correct, however there are two proper ways to handle that:
A the FFIV route: release has been pushed to <enter here> deal with it
or
B Jumpgate route: Sorry folks we wont be able to include feature <insert here> at launch we may, or may not come back to it at a later date
Not
C splat your pitch on large number of cable shows, new sites, games sites etcetera. Create a huge public media presence (not to be confused with 3rd party hype) promising certain features, promo videos 1 month before launch(when unless your a moron your feature complete and all cutting has already been done) showing a game significantly different than the build you got back at the office. Then hours before launch drop a couple isolated and obscure tweets not even making a credible attempt to reach the people you previously false adverted. And you wonder why there is blowback?
And it is a developer issue if the developer is the one who delivers multiple (and I do mean multiple NMS was everywhere) statements . Promising things less than a month out you KNOW weren't to be in the final build. This is a developers reputation, there is no legal way(in any western country) Sony or any other publisher can enforce a developer to make a false public statement(or statements) or penalize a developer for refusing to make such.
EDIT a developer can keep their **** mouth shut and let the pub carry the PR heavy lifting(and any blowback), be honest and factual, or lie out their ___. That is the developers choice and issue not the publishers.
거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
Some are looking at this game developer size from the perspective of a AAA firm with nearly zero knowedge about the indie market so they assume 14 is small when in fact in the indie universe that is huge
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
I haven't played it yet. It is in my house, but it has two children to go through before it gets to me.
That being said, and with all honesty, can you imagine how much better our society would be if we actually held people accountable the way that gamers do? I mean gamers never really DO anything about it, but I'm just saying, we do tend to make a lot of noise.
Crazkanuk
----------------
Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
----------------
거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
would you happen to have any reference? first googles appears like my search might get painful.
I am extreemly curious now because of SE has 50 developers that is great we can expect some amazing improvements over the next year. i dont think its true though still looking.
Its appears that perphaps most of those developers at Keen are working on the RD project not related to SE. On KSP I dont even have to look it up because I know, Squad is not a game developer studio. KSP was a project within that company so clearly they need to keep developers on staff to do their existing contracts that are not related to KSP at all. If 50 developers were working on SE that would be extreemly exciting news
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
I would have given you an awesome AND agree, but it doesn't let me do that.
Totally true..... without going all political, DT makes this 2nd amendment comment and people be like, "Yeah, I see that, that's totally what he meant. It wasn't malicious at all because he said he didn't mean it that way" Meanwhile, back at the ranch, some random software developer makes comments about multiplayer, even though it's been CLEARLY stated for 2 years that it's not multiplayer, and people are going fucking nuts! It's like,
Gamer: "You said fucking multiplayer SEAN!!! You fucking liar!!"
Sean: "No, I said specifically it wouldn't have multiplayer."
Gamer: "See!! You just said multiplayer!! You fucking liar!!"
Sean: "I really don't know how I can be more clear with this explanation. There is no multipl...."
Gamer: "See! Again! You fucking liar!!!!"
Crazkanuk
----------------
Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
----------------
As far as KSP keep in mind very few were there the whole time. More than a few were brought in from it's mudding modding community. I want to say the majority, but I have nothing to back that up. A comparative few made a living (at the time) as game developers. There were probably a few times during development /post launch they broke 20 people, likely just as many when it was around 10. KSP is/was kind of an outlier as far as development process goes. A lot of it's concepts began life as mods, when KSP brought in those concepts they often pulled the creators with them to implement.
EDIT
As an EA title it had the freedom to "source out" like that along with "looser" deadlines unlike a complete in-house project such as NMS.
Squad started the idea that if someone had a great idea within the company regardless of what industry it was in that they would do it. Squad is NOT a game developer studio, KSP was one of these projects. So if one looks at the size of Squad its going to be a lot larger then the developers working on KSP itself.
SE it appears has a branched off project that is not related to gaming (although I wonder where the money is coming from!) so looking at SE employement figures isnt accurate either.
regardless as a SE fan who is looking for some improvements in that game I would be excited if it had 50 developers currently working on the project.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
He almost never gave a straight answer to any of the specific questions. It was bound to lead to trouble, and it did. Spectacularly !
Whatever the reason for the discrepancy between what was shown and said in demo's (from 2014 and 2015), Hello Games had a responsibility to inform gamers of feature cuts. It was pretty obvious what people were expecting, a quick read of the Reddit sub would have made that abundantly clear.
I have no idea of the contractual arrangement between Sony and HG. I don't know if HG "sold their souls" and are now prevented from saying anything that may impact Sony's revenue from their "PS4 exclusive" deal.
Perhaps HG are the biggest scammers in recent gaming history. Or perhaps they are naive innocents who got railroaded by Sony's marketing division...
We'll probably never know the truth. I just hope that HG continue to work on NMS and make into a product that can entertain more than just the diehard fans on /r/NoMansHigh, lol
They dont have to inform gamers on features cut when they didnt mention any solid features to begin with. the perfect obfuscation
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
Keen Software has 20 developer working on an AI project that is NOT related to SE.
Squad is not a game developer studio KSP was a project within the company but they continued operations. so unless it states all new hires are working explicitly on said project then its very possible they are not. With that said the article is pretty clear that 25 are for that one team which is huge in my mind
I would LOVE to have 50 developers on SE but it appears its more like 10 between both SE and ME
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
At around 7:05 of the video below (from June 2015,) Sean clearly describes some ships landing on a platform as possibly AI "or they could be other players."
When and why that changed I don't know but it obviously did in the version recently released. I have no idea when was the last time they said you could see other players and their ships. All of the "proof of lying" videos about this that I have seen, seem to be from around that same time.
So that was dropped during development but I ain't buying the "deliberately lied to us" hysterics. It also was never a feature of the game that I gave much of a crap about. Everything I play does not need to be multiplayer,
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
There problem doesn't seem to be so much overselling the game as it is not being up front and communicating what the issues are on their end. The silence is more damaging then anything. They are probably working hard on fixing bugs and such which is great but it is not 100% of "why people are complaining" there is a PR side to a game this big and if you ignore it no one will be playing your game at all by the time you push out those bug fixes.
http://baronsofthegalaxy.com/ An MMO game I created, solo. It's live now and absolutely free to play!