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What is the point of classes?
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Member UncommonPosts: 351
I have personally always seen classes as a crutch for designers who can't balance a skill-based system, but lately I've been seeing people saying things like 'X game needs more diverse and intersting classes', 'X game's classes are so generic', 'X game will fail because it has bad classes', etc. A properly designed and balanced skill system intrinsically gives the ultimate freedom and diversity of choices that no class system could ever rival, so I'd like to know what the point of classes is; why are people demanding better classes over no classes?
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Also, many, many players have preferences for how they like to play. Personally I like playing tanks and healers. Nothing wrong with damage dealers, they just are not my cup of tea. I can go into a game with classes and know which classes are going to be the most fun for me.
Yeah, I know, I try DPS classes for every game I play, and other than City of Heroes I have yet to find a game that I really enjoy playing a DPSer. If the ultimate build is a DPS build, that means that my self designed tank and self designed healer have no chance for fun in PvP. I like PvE better, but that does not mean I avoid PvP. I have fun with that, and consider PvP a terrific way to breathe life into a game I am getting bored of.
The world is going to the dogs, which is just how I planned it!
Really? hahaha
You think you can balance skills easily?
Skill 1: +10% long sword damage.
Skill 2: faster movement
Skill 3: longer archery range.
Given skill 1, what percentages do you assign skill 2 & skill 3 to make all three balanced? Show your math to prove it is balanced.
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https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
Devs never believe a player should have all skill maxed out. Players want to be the Heavy Armour, DPS, Stealth and lockpicking class and they think that skills are the easy road to achieving what hard classes deny them.
Skill choices and playstyle determine classes, that is why Devs say there is no such thing as a classless gaming system. A player instinctively will always play to a class style of preference.
Boy: Why can't I talk to Him?
Mom: We don't talk to Priests.
As if it could exist, without being payed for.
F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing.
Even telemarketers wouldn't think that.
It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
@Konfess: I agree with not allowing one character to max out all skills, I'm just saying that a skill-based system inherently has more freedom because you can choose any combination of skills you like.
Boy: Why can't I talk to Him?
Mom: We don't talk to Priests.
As if it could exist, without being payed for.
F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing.
Even telemarketers wouldn't think that.
It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
Most classless MMOs make the mistake that they allow players to pick the best from all skills without limitations. That doesn't work because players just pick about the same skills while wearing the best armor. For it to work you need each skills to have a number of other skills you can't combine it with, not to mention gear it wont work with (spells might not work with any armor, while lockpicking might force you to wear leather or less). Certain attacks might require you to wear a specific type of weapon and so on.
And with all that you also need to balance the skills against eachothers, so no single skill is better then the rest and if you have a greater tier you need to limit how many of them players can equip at any given moment
I think that a lot of the reason games have classes is to make it easier for new players, too many options tend to scare many players away. You could of course fix that with a few recommended setups and let more advanced players make their own builds.
But there is also the fact that "everyone else is doing it this way", MMOs tend to lack the imaginations to really make good different systems instead of just do the same as have been done since Meridian 59.
If you look on pen and paper games some use classes (D&D/Pathfinder, Palladium) while other have just as good and balanced system without (Shadowrun, Vampire). MMOs could be the same, but the P&P systems without classes have mechanics that stop ultimate builds. Some let you try but you get so few skillpoints that someone getting all the best skills will suck, even after years of playing since they get far too little in each of the skills to be really useful.
If for each class to level just has to be a class specific quest that is challenging, then it would be short and sweet and I would be alting
then 'story' as it becomes not class specific is something that is not lvl based, so you only need to do it once.
I think that would work better for me, then I could focus on the end game content that I like, and if it had open world pvp systems I would explore the new worlds.
thats just me, so by having so many alts I know I have to also level, I lose interest also becuase it just so happens that the content for lvling is very generic.
and... if they do only have class quests, then it would reduce the downtime for each character, and it would be more as if it where only 1 character lvling (synergizes benefis of alting better) but of course be seperate characters, with their won role identities and ofc their own stories. (class story / class quest)
Write bad things that are done to you in sand, but write the good things that happen to you on a piece of marble
The best games out there have classless options but also class-like templates to get you started until you figure it out for yourself. In the MMO group, The Secret World did this very well and in single player RPGs Divinity Original Sin also did it this way.
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Classes are strictly for lazy developers who don't want to take the time to put together a good skill system.
Classes may be old and archaic <gasp>, but they work.
Why we can't combine classes with skill usage is a head scratcher, though. General, all-purpose XP is what I have gripes with.
VG
Then what is this:
"Size Class
Some ships that don't fit or are hard to pin down in this classification are certain Industrials and ORE Ships. A common simplification of this classification is calling a Carrier, Dreadnought, Supercarrier, Titan and Rorqual capitals, while calling all other ships sub-capitals."
http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Ship
When you don't want the truth, you will make up your own truth.
Taking FFXIV (a very class based game) Monk for example: Core skills are only able to be used in a certain stance (there are about 3~4 skills usable per stance), with each skill advancing the Monk to the next stance, and completing a series of stances conferring a stacking buff that makes the Monk faster and able to do more damage. Core skills also have positional effects and most other skills are built around the stance / buff mechanic (e.g. freely change stance, use skill out of stance, consume buff for big hit), or support the stance / buff mechanic (e.g. dash to target, off cooldown stun, faster movement). Throw in a token support skill (AoE +20% healing!), and all of this adds up to a lot of DPS (but relatively little support) and makes for a very unique and interesting playstyle.
While technically you could implement the FFXIV Monk in a skill based system the core skills are so tightly coupled there is no way of only taking a few of them and still having an effective / enjoyable character (essentially turning that set of skills into a 'class'). And forget about limited action set, it's 3 stances * 3~4 skills + support = 12~16 skills minimum, 20+ if you want to keep things interesting.
Class interaction is also very important, and again, done well, means that classes can be varied both in terms of play style and DPS / Tank / Healing / Support ability, and still all be useful / welcomed in a group.
This is not to say that tightly defined classes are 'the best', and certainly aren't the only way to go. And there is definitely something to be said for giving players customiaation even within a tightly defined class (something FFXIV sorely needs). But the idea that all RPGs should simply be 'classless' is a bit short sighted, especially for MMOs where classes, which define roles, help people interact in a positive way.
For example.... let's say you have strength, dexterity, wisdom, and intelligence. Well, why can't I choose what to focus on among those and have all of them start at a basic say 15? Then the same with skills, why do I have to be forced to be a warrior, or a mage? Why can't I choose to do both based on what I spend my points on? Why can't I have some points in those but choose to focus on a profession instead? Or many professions? The focus is too narrow and its one of the things killing these games. Even tabletop games aren't as limited in option as mmo's.
Show us that you can do it. You reasoning is a crutch.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
But the acronym MMMORPG now currently means Microscopic Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Game. Kappa.