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The Creator of 'Magic the Gathering' on Abusive Games and Business Models

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Comments

  • pantheronpantheron Member UncommonPosts: 256
    I'm not arguing that it isn't exploitative, just trying to say that all the people saying that Garfield doesn't have room to talk on this subject aren't really correct. The game he made and administered over had uncommons and commons, not nearly the level of rarity differentiation that other games like Yugioh (Common, rare, super rare, ultra rare, secret rare, ghost rare, etc. etc.) or even MTG has now (Common, uncommon, rare, mythic, masterwork). Now, if Mark Rosewater was the one telling us all this, those arguments would definitely be more substantiated. 

    I play MMOs for the Forum PVP

  • CleffyCleffy Member RarePosts: 6,413
    edited September 2016
    I had a super rare card. It was a foil Serra's Avatar. I made decks around it because of how rare it was even though in most situations it was useless. Best thing it offered was burning the opponents counter spells.
    Post edited by Cleffy on
  • filmoretfilmoret Member EpicPosts: 4,906
    Cleffy said:
    I had a super rare card. It was a foil Seraph's Avatar. I made decks around it because of how rare it was even though in most situations it was useless. Best thing it offered was burning the opponents counter spells.
    I cannot find this card you speak of.
    Are you onto something or just on something?
  • goboygogoboygo Member RarePosts: 2,141
    Smart guy spot on read.  People with little or no income love F2P games because even if they wanted to spend money on the game they cant, their broke, but at least they can play.  Casuals are just that, casuals, they dont really have an opinion one way or the other, they arent min maxers, so again they arent bothered by F2P cash shop games.  they can take them or leave them because they know their not an end gamer, they are a dabbler.

    You know who gets the corn hole playing F2P games?  The original hardcore MMO player, this poor guy used to spend 15 a month to play a game he liked, he puts the effort in and is rewarded with the best in end game rewards.  If he wants to achieve the same thing in a F2P its going to cost him 5x that minimum, to achieve the same thing in the same time frame as a P2P game.

    Thats why traditional MMO players HATE F2P games.  And why everyone else doesnt care.
  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775
    goboygo said:
    Smart guy spot on read.  People with little or no income love F2P games because even if they wanted to spend money on the game they cant, their broke, but at least they can play.  Casuals are just that, casuals, they dont really have an opinion one way or the other, they arent min maxers, so again they arent bothered by F2P cash shop games.  they can take them or leave them because they know their not an end gamer, they are a dabbler.

    You know who gets the corn hole playing F2P games?  The original hardcore MMO player, this poor guy used to spend 15 a month to play a game he liked, he puts the effort in and is rewarded with the best in end game rewards.  If he wants to achieve the same thing in a F2P its going to cost him 5x that minimum, to achieve the same thing in the same time frame as a P2P game.

    Thats why traditional MMO players HATE F2P games.  And why everyone else doesnt care.
    HOWEVER, the market is showing that F2P make more money

    Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.

    Please do not respond to me

  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Member EpicPosts: 6,130
    goboygo said:
    Smart guy spot on read.  People with little or no income love F2P games because even if they wanted to spend money on the game they cant, their broke, but at least they can play.  Casuals are just that, casuals, they dont really have an opinion one way or the other, they arent min maxers, so again they arent bothered by F2P cash shop games.  they can take them or leave them because they know their not an end gamer, they are a dabbler.

    You know who gets the corn hole playing F2P games?  The original hardcore MMO player, this poor guy used to spend 15 a month to play a game he liked, he puts the effort in and is rewarded with the best in end game rewards.  If he wants to achieve the same thing in a F2P its going to cost him 5x that minimum, to achieve the same thing in the same time frame as a P2P game.

    Thats why traditional MMO players HATE F2P games.  And why everyone else doesnt care.

    Lots wrong with this statement. First, hardcore != spending $15 a month. That's so absolutely out in left field I can't even begin to explain. Add the definition to urban dictionary, though, and watch it plummet. 

    Secondly, there is no evidence that people with no income are the ones playing F2P games. F2P games are actually more profitable than P2P games, so how does that work? 

    Third, in the grand scheme of things you're wrong about F2P spending. While each game might be different, the average spending of a paying user in a F2P game is around $200 annually, which puts it right in line with a subscription model. I really don't think that "hardcore" gamers hate F2P games. A "hardcore" gamer wouldn't likely take issue to spending money in a game. A great example of this would be BDO. Unless BDO is filled exclusively with hardcore gamers, then I think BDO alone disproves your assumption. I think it's North Americans, period. 

    Crazkanuk

    ----------------
    Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
    Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
    Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
    Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
    Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
    ----------------

  • laseritlaserit Member LegendaryPosts: 7,591
    CrazKanuk said:
    goboygo said:
    Smart guy spot on read.  People with little or no income love F2P games because even if they wanted to spend money on the game they cant, their broke, but at least they can play.  Casuals are just that, casuals, they dont really have an opinion one way or the other, they arent min maxers, so again they arent bothered by F2P cash shop games.  they can take them or leave them because they know their not an end gamer, they are a dabbler.

    You know who gets the corn hole playing F2P games?  The original hardcore MMO player, this poor guy used to spend 15 a month to play a game he liked, he puts the effort in and is rewarded with the best in end game rewards.  If he wants to achieve the same thing in a F2P its going to cost him 5x that minimum, to achieve the same thing in the same time frame as a P2P game.

    Thats why traditional MMO players HATE F2P games.  And why everyone else doesnt care.

    Lots wrong with this statement. First, hardcore != spending $15 a month. That's so absolutely out in left field I can't even begin to explain. Add the definition to urban dictionary, though, and watch it plummet. 

    Secondly, there is no evidence that people with no income are the ones playing F2P games. F2P games are actually more profitable than P2P games, so how does that work? 

    Third, in the grand scheme of things you're wrong about F2P spending. While each game might be different, the average spending of a paying user in a F2P game is around $200 annually, which puts it right in line with a subscription model. I really don't think that "hardcore" gamers hate F2P games. A "hardcore" gamer wouldn't likely take issue to spending money in a game. A great example of this would be BDO. Unless BDO is filled exclusively with hardcore gamers, then I think BDO alone disproves your assumption. I think it's North Americans, period. 
    There is plenty of evidence that people are spending money they don't have. $953.3 Billion in credit card debt for the U.S. alone.

    http://www.creditcards.com/credit-card-news/credit-card-debt-statistics-1276.php

    "Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee

  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Member EpicPosts: 6,130
    laserit said:
    CrazKanuk said:
    goboygo said:
    Smart guy spot on read.  People with little or no income love F2P games because even if they wanted to spend money on the game they cant, their broke, but at least they can play.  Casuals are just that, casuals, they dont really have an opinion one way or the other, they arent min maxers, so again they arent bothered by F2P cash shop games.  they can take them or leave them because they know their not an end gamer, they are a dabbler.

    You know who gets the corn hole playing F2P games?  The original hardcore MMO player, this poor guy used to spend 15 a month to play a game he liked, he puts the effort in and is rewarded with the best in end game rewards.  If he wants to achieve the same thing in a F2P its going to cost him 5x that minimum, to achieve the same thing in the same time frame as a P2P game.

    Thats why traditional MMO players HATE F2P games.  And why everyone else doesnt care.

    Lots wrong with this statement. First, hardcore != spending $15 a month. That's so absolutely out in left field I can't even begin to explain. Add the definition to urban dictionary, though, and watch it plummet. 

    Secondly, there is no evidence that people with no income are the ones playing F2P games. F2P games are actually more profitable than P2P games, so how does that work? 

    Third, in the grand scheme of things you're wrong about F2P spending. While each game might be different, the average spending of a paying user in a F2P game is around $200 annually, which puts it right in line with a subscription model. I really don't think that "hardcore" gamers hate F2P games. A "hardcore" gamer wouldn't likely take issue to spending money in a game. A great example of this would be BDO. Unless BDO is filled exclusively with hardcore gamers, then I think BDO alone disproves your assumption. I think it's North Americans, period. 
    There is plenty of evidence that people are spending money they don't have. $953.3 Billion in credit card debt for the U.S. alone.

    http://www.creditcards.com/credit-card-news/credit-card-debt-statistics-1276.php


    I didn't say people aren't spending money they don't have. I said there is no evidence that poor people are exclusively the ones playing (and spending money) in F2P games. 

    Additionally, there is plenty of evidence that suggests that ARPPU for F2P games is aligned with that of subscription based games. Just go Google it. Whether those people have money or not in inconsequential because those same poor people could be playing WoW for all we know. So are you going to now dictate what games poor people should play? Fuck, why not say that poor people are ONLY allowed to shop at Wal-Mart? That seems logical. Also, why don't we tell poor people where they can live? We KNOW poor people are living in houses which they obviously cannot afford, because they're poor, right? Also, I see a LOT of poor people driving brand new cars. We should probably limit which cars they are allowed to drive too. Actually, cars require gas, so we should probably say that poor people can't drive at all. Would that satisfy you? :)



    Crazkanuk

    ----------------
    Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
    Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
    Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
    Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
    Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
    ----------------

  • laseritlaserit Member LegendaryPosts: 7,591
    CrazKanuk said:
    laserit said:
    CrazKanuk said:
    goboygo said:
    Smart guy spot on read.  People with little or no income love F2P games because even if they wanted to spend money on the game they cant, their broke, but at least they can play.  Casuals are just that, casuals, they dont really have an opinion one way or the other, they arent min maxers, so again they arent bothered by F2P cash shop games.  they can take them or leave them because they know their not an end gamer, they are a dabbler.

    You know who gets the corn hole playing F2P games?  The original hardcore MMO player, this poor guy used to spend 15 a month to play a game he liked, he puts the effort in and is rewarded with the best in end game rewards.  If he wants to achieve the same thing in a F2P its going to cost him 5x that minimum, to achieve the same thing in the same time frame as a P2P game.

    Thats why traditional MMO players HATE F2P games.  And why everyone else doesnt care.

    Lots wrong with this statement. First, hardcore != spending $15 a month. That's so absolutely out in left field I can't even begin to explain. Add the definition to urban dictionary, though, and watch it plummet. 

    Secondly, there is no evidence that people with no income are the ones playing F2P games. F2P games are actually more profitable than P2P games, so how does that work? 

    Third, in the grand scheme of things you're wrong about F2P spending. While each game might be different, the average spending of a paying user in a F2P game is around $200 annually, which puts it right in line with a subscription model. I really don't think that "hardcore" gamers hate F2P games. A "hardcore" gamer wouldn't likely take issue to spending money in a game. A great example of this would be BDO. Unless BDO is filled exclusively with hardcore gamers, then I think BDO alone disproves your assumption. I think it's North Americans, period. 
    There is plenty of evidence that people are spending money they don't have. $953.3 Billion in credit card debt for the U.S. alone.

    http://www.creditcards.com/credit-card-news/credit-card-debt-statistics-1276.php


    I didn't say people aren't spending money they don't have. I said there is no evidence that poor people are exclusively the ones playing (and spending money) in F2P games. 

    Additionally, there is plenty of evidence that suggests that ARPPU for F2P games is aligned with that of subscription based games. Just go Google it. Whether those people have money or not in inconsequential because those same poor people could be playing WoW for all we know. So are you going to now dictate what games poor people should play? Fuck, why not say that poor people are ONLY allowed to shop at Wal-Mart? That seems logical. Also, why don't we tell poor people where they can live? We KNOW poor people are living in houses which they obviously cannot afford, because they're poor, right? Also, I see a LOT of poor people driving brand new cars. We should probably limit which cars they are allowed to drive too. Actually, cars require gas, so we should probably say that poor people can't drive at all. Would that satisfy you? :)





    One day, take a trip to the third world and learn what poor really is. I have and it's a very eye opening experience.

    Things are very different from when we were young. We were discouraged from getting into consumer debt. It was very difficult to get a credit card, almost impossible if you were under 30.  My kids received addressed letters for pre-approved credit cards within days of turning 19. They didn't even have jobs. It really fucking pissed me off.

    I'll just leave it at that and let you put 2 and 2 together. 

    "Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee

  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Member EpicPosts: 6,130
    laserit said:
    CrazKanuk said:
    laserit said:
    CrazKanuk said:
    goboygo said:
    Smart guy spot on read.  People with little or no income love F2P games because even if they wanted to spend money on the game they cant, their broke, but at least they can play.  Casuals are just that, casuals, they dont really have an opinion one way or the other, they arent min maxers, so again they arent bothered by F2P cash shop games.  they can take them or leave them because they know their not an end gamer, they are a dabbler.

    You know who gets the corn hole playing F2P games?  The original hardcore MMO player, this poor guy used to spend 15 a month to play a game he liked, he puts the effort in and is rewarded with the best in end game rewards.  If he wants to achieve the same thing in a F2P its going to cost him 5x that minimum, to achieve the same thing in the same time frame as a P2P game.

    Thats why traditional MMO players HATE F2P games.  And why everyone else doesnt care.

    Lots wrong with this statement. First, hardcore != spending $15 a month. That's so absolutely out in left field I can't even begin to explain. Add the definition to urban dictionary, though, and watch it plummet. 

    Secondly, there is no evidence that people with no income are the ones playing F2P games. F2P games are actually more profitable than P2P games, so how does that work? 

    Third, in the grand scheme of things you're wrong about F2P spending. While each game might be different, the average spending of a paying user in a F2P game is around $200 annually, which puts it right in line with a subscription model. I really don't think that "hardcore" gamers hate F2P games. A "hardcore" gamer wouldn't likely take issue to spending money in a game. A great example of this would be BDO. Unless BDO is filled exclusively with hardcore gamers, then I think BDO alone disproves your assumption. I think it's North Americans, period. 
    There is plenty of evidence that people are spending money they don't have. $953.3 Billion in credit card debt for the U.S. alone.

    http://www.creditcards.com/credit-card-news/credit-card-debt-statistics-1276.php


    I didn't say people aren't spending money they don't have. I said there is no evidence that poor people are exclusively the ones playing (and spending money) in F2P games. 

    Additionally, there is plenty of evidence that suggests that ARPPU for F2P games is aligned with that of subscription based games. Just go Google it. Whether those people have money or not in inconsequential because those same poor people could be playing WoW for all we know. So are you going to now dictate what games poor people should play? Fuck, why not say that poor people are ONLY allowed to shop at Wal-Mart? That seems logical. Also, why don't we tell poor people where they can live? We KNOW poor people are living in houses which they obviously cannot afford, because they're poor, right? Also, I see a LOT of poor people driving brand new cars. We should probably limit which cars they are allowed to drive too. Actually, cars require gas, so we should probably say that poor people can't drive at all. Would that satisfy you? :)





    One day, take a trip to the third world and learn what poor really is. I have and it's a very eye opening experience.

    Things are very different from when we were young. We were discouraged from getting into consumer debt. It was very difficult to get a credit card, almost impossible if you were under 30.  My kids received addressed letters for pre-approved credit cards within days of turning 19. They didn't even have jobs. It really fucking pissed me off.

    I'll just leave it at that and let you put 2 and 2 together. 

    I agree! Not to mention that they kindly jack up my limit whenever I'm doing a really good job at paying it off. 

    What I'm trying to figure out is what you're talking about? What does this have to do with games and how we should be policing them? People are trying to say how these F2P games are predatory and we need to get them under control, and you seem to be saying that EVERYTHING is predatory. If that's what you're trying to say, then I wholeheartedly agree with you! I totally agree, it's not a gaming problem, it's a societal problem. 

    Crazkanuk

    ----------------
    Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
    Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
    Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
    Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
    Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
    ----------------

  • laseritlaserit Member LegendaryPosts: 7,591
    edited September 2016
    CrazKanuk said:
    laserit said:
    CrazKanuk said:
    laserit said:
    CrazKanuk said:
    goboygo said:
    Smart guy spot on read.  People with little or no income love F2P games because even if they wanted to spend money on the game they cant, their broke, but at least they can play.  Casuals are just that, casuals, they dont really have an opinion one way or the other, they arent min maxers, so again they arent bothered by F2P cash shop games.  they can take them or leave them because they know their not an end gamer, they are a dabbler.

    You know who gets the corn hole playing F2P games?  The original hardcore MMO player, this poor guy used to spend 15 a month to play a game he liked, he puts the effort in and is rewarded with the best in end game rewards.  If he wants to achieve the same thing in a F2P its going to cost him 5x that minimum, to achieve the same thing in the same time frame as a P2P game.

    Thats why traditional MMO players HATE F2P games.  And why everyone else doesnt care.

    Lots wrong with this statement. First, hardcore != spending $15 a month. That's so absolutely out in left field I can't even begin to explain. Add the definition to urban dictionary, though, and watch it plummet. 

    Secondly, there is no evidence that people with no income are the ones playing F2P games. F2P games are actually more profitable than P2P games, so how does that work? 

    Third, in the grand scheme of things you're wrong about F2P spending. While each game might be different, the average spending of a paying user in a F2P game is around $200 annually, which puts it right in line with a subscription model. I really don't think that "hardcore" gamers hate F2P games. A "hardcore" gamer wouldn't likely take issue to spending money in a game. A great example of this would be BDO. Unless BDO is filled exclusively with hardcore gamers, then I think BDO alone disproves your assumption. I think it's North Americans, period. 
    There is plenty of evidence that people are spending money they don't have. $953.3 Billion in credit card debt for the U.S. alone.

    http://www.creditcards.com/credit-card-news/credit-card-debt-statistics-1276.php


    I didn't say people aren't spending money they don't have. I said there is no evidence that poor people are exclusively the ones playing (and spending money) in F2P games. 

    Additionally, there is plenty of evidence that suggests that ARPPU for F2P games is aligned with that of subscription based games. Just go Google it. Whether those people have money or not in inconsequential because those same poor people could be playing WoW for all we know. So are you going to now dictate what games poor people should play? Fuck, why not say that poor people are ONLY allowed to shop at Wal-Mart? That seems logical. Also, why don't we tell poor people where they can live? We KNOW poor people are living in houses which they obviously cannot afford, because they're poor, right? Also, I see a LOT of poor people driving brand new cars. We should probably limit which cars they are allowed to drive too. Actually, cars require gas, so we should probably say that poor people can't drive at all. Would that satisfy you? :)





    One day, take a trip to the third world and learn what poor really is. I have and it's a very eye opening experience.

    Things are very different from when we were young. We were discouraged from getting into consumer debt. It was very difficult to get a credit card, almost impossible if you were under 30.  My kids received addressed letters for pre-approved credit cards within days of turning 19. They didn't even have jobs. It really fucking pissed me off.

    I'll just leave it at that and let you put 2 and 2 together. 

    I agree! Not to mention that they kindly jack up my limit whenever I'm doing a really good job at paying it off. 

    What I'm trying to figure out is what you're talking about? What does this have to do with games and how we should be policing them? People are trying to say how these F2P games are predatory and we need to get them under control, and you seem to be saying that EVERYTHING is predatory. If that's what you're trying to say, then I wholeheartedly agree with you! I totally agree, it's not a gaming problem, it's a societal problem. 
    It's the "Science" of making money. Many things in science be it biological or technical etc. etc. can bring ethics into question. Business Sciences are no different. Psychology plays a major role.

    What's ethical is what our society determines ethical to be and these days, that seems to be on a major down hill slide.

    I always thought when the Hippie generation and my generation came into power, the world would be a much better place, Fuck was I wrong ;)

    Quite frankly I'm disgusted at what we're leaving for our kids and for future generations. All our society seems to care about is raping them. 

    "Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee

  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Member EpicPosts: 6,130
    laserit said:
    CrazKanuk said:

    I agree! Not to mention that they kindly jack up my limit whenever I'm doing a really good job at paying it off. 

    What I'm trying to figure out is what you're talking about? What does this have to do with games and how we should be policing them? People are trying to say how these F2P games are predatory and we need to get them under control, and you seem to be saying that EVERYTHING is predatory. If that's what you're trying to say, then I wholeheartedly agree with you! I totally agree, it's not a gaming problem, it's a societal problem. 
    It's the "Science" of making money. Many things in science be it biological or technical etc. etc. can bring ethics into question. Business Sciences are no different. Psychology plays a major role.

    What's ethical is what our society determines ethical to be and these days, that seems to be on a major down hill slide.

    I always thought when the Hippie generation and my generation came into power, the world would be a much better place, Fuck was I wrong ;)

    Quite frankly I'm disgusted at what we're leaving for our kids and for future generations. All our society seems to care about is raping them. 

    I almost wonder if the entitled generation will fix things. I do quarterly interviews at the local university for interns and it's just been getting worse and worse it seems (from a generation where it's mandatory to perform community service to graduate high school, lol). Anyway, maybe this entitlement gets so bad that people will simply expect more than what's reasonable and won't buy stuff otherwise, meaning that the focus will start to turn towards creating value instead of focusing exclusively on profits. 

    That being said, it's not a theory I'm willing to test with my own kids. I will not be encouraging them to be MORE entitled than what they already are :) 

    Crazkanuk

    ----------------
    Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
    Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
    Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
    Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
    Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
    ----------------

  • laseritlaserit Member LegendaryPosts: 7,591
    CrazKanuk said:
    laserit said:
    CrazKanuk said:

    I agree! Not to mention that they kindly jack up my limit whenever I'm doing a really good job at paying it off. 

    What I'm trying to figure out is what you're talking about? What does this have to do with games and how we should be policing them? People are trying to say how these F2P games are predatory and we need to get them under control, and you seem to be saying that EVERYTHING is predatory. If that's what you're trying to say, then I wholeheartedly agree with you! I totally agree, it's not a gaming problem, it's a societal problem. 
    It's the "Science" of making money. Many things in science be it biological or technical etc. etc. can bring ethics into question. Business Sciences are no different. Psychology plays a major role.

    What's ethical is what our society determines ethical to be and these days, that seems to be on a major down hill slide.

    I always thought when the Hippie generation and my generation came into power, the world would be a much better place, Fuck was I wrong ;)

    Quite frankly I'm disgusted at what we're leaving for our kids and for future generations. All our society seems to care about is raping them. 

    I almost wonder if the entitled generation will fix things. I do quarterly interviews at the local university for interns and it's just been getting worse and worse it seems (from a generation where it's mandatory to perform community service to graduate high school, lol). Anyway, maybe this entitlement gets so bad that people will simply expect more than what's reasonable and won't buy stuff otherwise, meaning that the focus will start to turn towards creating value instead of focusing exclusively on profits. 

    That being said, it's not a theory I'm willing to test with my own kids. I will not be encouraging them to be MORE entitled than what they already are :) 
    My daughter is shacked up with a moron,at least I got an awesome grandson out of the deal ;)  My eldest son is going to university for a business degree. My next son down the line hasn't given up on his dream of being a rock star and my youngest son is quite proud to be a swing manager at McD's for the time being.

    Somethings going to have to crack one day, because the way things are going now is unsustainable.

    "Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee

  • BruceYeeBruceYee Member EpicPosts: 2,556
    Trove abuses me at least once a week...and I like it.

    But seriously though the same can be said really for any habit forming hobby.

    If you're addicted to gambling you will go to the casino and lose your A over and over.
    If you're into sports you will devote so much of your life to be into everything -insert your favorite team here- related that if you tally up the time you spent on them( time is money, friend!) the amount of hours gone may leave you with a feeling similar to being abused.

    It comes down to the individual and how they deal with temptation. There will always be some form of that scrawny shady character in an alley wanting to sell you "dope" as long as human greed and habit forming tendencies exist.
  • alkarionlogalkarionlog Member EpicPosts: 3,584
    goboygo said:
    Smart guy spot on read.  People with little or no income love F2P games because even if they wanted to spend money on the game they cant, their broke, but at least they can play.  Casuals are just that, casuals, they dont really have an opinion one way or the other, they arent min maxers, so again they arent bothered by F2P cash shop games.  they can take them or leave them because they know their not an end gamer, they are a dabbler.

    You know who gets the corn hole playing F2P games?  The original hardcore MMO player, this poor guy used to spend 15 a month to play a game he liked, he puts the effort in and is rewarded with the best in end game rewards.  If he wants to achieve the same thing in a F2P its going to cost him 5x that minimum, to achieve the same thing in the same time frame as a P2P game.

    Thats why traditional MMO players HATE F2P games.  And why everyone else doesnt care.
    if that was really the case there wouldn't be games with lack of player for abusive or P2W cash shop, they don't care so they would still be playing no?
    FOR HONOR, FOR FREEDOM.... and for some money.
  • CleffyCleffy Member RarePosts: 6,413
    filmoret said:
    Cleffy said:
    I had a super rare card. It was a foil Seraph's Avatar. I made decks around it because of how rare it was even though in most situations it was useless. Best thing it offered was burning the opponents counter spells.
    I cannot find this card you speak of.
    Whoops, meant Serra Avatar from Urza's Saga. They reprinted it a lot as a more common card so it's value has gone down considerably.
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