Do you think we have real withdrawal rights as videogame players?

AtrusV · October 2016

Aside from the classic of not allowing you to return a game which you could copy to keep playing (a totally understandable reason, yet unfair since "improving" the marketing of a game is a common practise, piracy being illegal, and demos are almost absent from the entire industry), I mean buying digital content like a premium skin for your character, a vehicle, etc.

In general, I've seen so many times companies twisting the reasons to not to refund anything that it makes me think if we have any right at all. For them, playing with that even once is an "added value service", so it's not refundable. You usually don't have other ways to try what you buy, and even if they have something like a test server, it's usually quite different from the experience in the real servers (for instance, everybody using premium consumables to get a huge advantage)

Not to mention how many lines in the EULA's are illegal. More than a legal document it's almost like a wish list for the company.

What do you think?

PS And yes, I've bought something, I regret doing so, and given they are not willing to refund me I'm even thinking about having a talk with my bank to cancel the charge.

Gdemami · October 2016

I think consumer self-entitlement I see in your post is something awful.

Sovrath · October 2016

I think players should read the policies of the company before buying something. If you don't like them, don't buy anything.

Mardukk · October 2016

With all the info available about games these days, I can say it is really is on the buyer if they get burned in a game purchase. Now back in the 80's and 90's every other game I bought was a rip off (for both PC and console). And with no way to know much about the game, it was a roll of the dice. Hell, it was a true sense of joy if I got the PC game to work on my computer in the 80's.

I feel like some gamers are losing a bit of perspective.

Quizzical · October 2016

You certainly have the right to stop playing a game you dislike, which is how I'd read the question in the title. But that doesn't seem to be what you're interested in in your post.

You don't really have a right to a refund unless a product is defective. If a game does what it promised and you just don't like it, you don't have a right to a refund on that basis alone. You could make a much stronger case for a game that wouldn't install or wouldn't run or something like that.

If you don't like having to pay for a game up front before playing it and finding out if you like it, you could restrict yourself to playing games that have free trials. That includes nearly all MMORPGs these days, among other games.

If you're pre-ordering games or paying for early access or backing games on Kickstarter or things like that, and then discover that you don't like the game, that's the problem right there. Have a little patience and wait until more information and a more complete game is available before you throw money at it. If you pay for a game before it is ready and get burned, that's usually 100% your own fault for paying for a game before it is ready.

AtrusV · October 2016

Quizzical said:

You certainly have the right to stop playing a game you dislike, which is how I'd read the question in the title. But that doesn't seem to be what you're interested in in your post.

You don't really have a right to a refund unless a product is defective. If a game does what you promised and you just don't like it, you don't have a right to a refund on that basis alone. You could make a much stronger case for a game that wouldn't install or wouldn't run or something like that.

If you don't like having to pay for a game up front before playing it and finding out if you like it, you could restrict yourself to playing games that have free trials. That includes nearly all MMORPGs these days, among other games.

If you're pre-ordering games or paying for early access or backing games on Kickstarter or things like that, and then discover that you don't like the game, that's the problem right there. Have a little patience and wait until more information and a more complete game is available before you throw money at it. If you pay for a game before it is ready and get burned, that's usually 100% your own fault for paying for a game before it is ready.

Not having information before buying an entire game is not the case here, although it could be a similar case. Thankfully, with nowadays youtube channels (those which some companies wanted to close)(in my opinion, because they ruin the opportunity to have lots of customers that eventually become disappointed, but the purchase is already made) you can have a good idea of what a game is. However, premium content, which is part of game, is more difficult to evaluate (unless it's merely aesthetic), there are many combinations of variables to take into account to judge it properly. For instance, No Man's Sky just showed videos that only featured walking/flying and naming stuff. It was easy to spot the problem since there aren't additional variables in this case, the game was already "complete" and you could see all the basic iterations and mechanics (unless you want to think about future content, like DLC or patches that could fix the game, but that's too obscure), the game as a whole simply doesn't have enough content, or the content is not entertaining.

However, judging a game's item for instance, is more complicate. It could be an item that only works in a particular build, or that counters a particular play style. Unless it's something really popular, it's not as easy as play any video and see the problem straight away. Quite often, there's no way to test before buying.

I think it's as legitimate to be willing to accept a disappointment even if you couldn't judge the situation beforehand (it's up to you and your personality), as it is wanting to try before buying and returning something you didn't have enough information to judge. Also, premium content can't be judged by playing the free part of the game unless they give something like some days to play that particular item, hero, content, whatever (like the characters in League of Legends)

Vrika · October 2016

AtrusV said:

I think it's as legitimate to be willing to accept a disappointment even if you couldn't judge the situation beforehand (it's up to you and your personality), as it is wanting to try before buying and returning something you didn't have enough information to judge. Also, premium content can't be judged by playing the free part of the game unless they give something like some days to play that particular item, hero, content, whatever (like the characters in League of Legends)

It's legitimate wanting to judge things before trying, and that's why you have the freedom to not purchase something you haven't been able to judge.

Wizardry · October 2016

Well once again proof the law is on the side of the big business but cares little for the consumer.They like to put in place government agencies that get paid by our tax dollars but when comes to enforcement,it is time to LMAO,slack would be a compliment.

This SHOULD be a two way street..."protect the copyright" "protect the consumer".Guess what side is not protected?

If i was making the laws,EVERY single game should have a free trial because there is NO WAY of knowing what you are paying for,so this non refund to protect possible copyright infringements is basically creating a way for developers to straight up rip us off.
Well one might argue,but if they rip us off,they will be out of business...haha..not paying attention to the market i say.

There are a lot of games that are already rich without having a finished product,the rest would be icing on the cake.Ever since crowd funding developers have NOTHING to lose,everything to gain.Guess hat happens to YOUR money,well it leaves your hands ,goes into their hands ,then the law kicks in to protect them from giving your money back.

AtrusV · October 2016

Wizardry said:

Well once again proof the law is on the side of the big business but cares little for the consumer.They like to put in place government agencies that get paid by our tax dollars but when comes to enforcement,it is time to LMAO,slack would be a compliment.

This SHOULD be a two way street..."protect the copyright" "protect the consumer".Guess what side is not protected?

If i was making the laws,EVERY single game should have a free trial because there is NO WAY of knowing what you are paying for,so this non refund to protect possible copyright infringements is basically creating a way for developers to straight up rip us off.
Well one might argue,but if they rip us off,they will be out of business...haha..not paying attention to the market i say.

There are a lot of games that are already rich without having a finished product,the rest would be icing on the cake.Ever since crowd funding developers have NOTHING to lose,everything to gain.Guess hat happens to YOUR money,well it leaves your hands ,goes into their hands ,then the law kicks in to protect them from giving your money back.

Not to mention fervent supporters of that model even if they don't own a company nor take profit from any game company.

However, they whine a lot when people copy their games and use them without buying it. Even more funny they consider every copy like a customer being able to play it for ages without paying, when most of the time, people try the copy and then delete it since they can see beyond the fake/shaddy advertisement and the final result is disappointing.

Anyways, the real problem I see here is that people is mostly discouraged about having to pay more in lawyers and courts than the money the company took from them. I bet that if there were a cheap procedure that in case of winning allowed you, not only to recover the money from the legal suit, but also the money the company owes to you plus an additional compensation, EULA's would change dramatically and the attention they pay to customers' complains would be exponentially higher.

Furthermore, just having an EULA with statements against the law in your region (let's be nice and consider the entire EU a region and its laws, the community laws, not each country's laws) should be punishable since it's an intimidatory measure to discourage refund claims.

Sadly, in order to change the law, our votes are worth the same as the ones of somebody who barely knows how to switch on a computer.

Vrika said:

AtrusV said:

I think it's as legitimate to be willing to accept a disappointment even if you couldn't judge the situation beforehand (it's up to you and your personality), as it is wanting to try before buying and returning something you didn't have enough information to judge. Also, premium content can't be judged by playing the free part of the game unless they give something like some days to play that particular item, hero, content, whatever (like the characters in League of Legends)

It's legitimate wanting to judge things before trying, and that's why you have the freedom to not purchase something you haven't been able to judge.

Yeah, I see your point. Just like buying a car you haven't seen, nor you haven't been able to touch, drive, and you have to believe what the company stays in a paper written by themselves.

In case many other companies allowed you to try something before buying, those who wouldn't would go bankrupt. However, it's really profitable for companies to team up and force consumers to choose blindly to lose their money soon after.

mgilbrtsn · October 2016

There should definitely be an ability to return items, however, for every crazy reason I've read for refusing a refund is mirrored with a crazy reason why they should return. Ideally, people will do a bit of research about the games they purchase and the rules about the retailers they are purchasing from. Also, game companies would ideally be more accurate in their promises and descriptions.

In short, like most everything, there is room for both sides to improve.

Scorchien · October 2016

No , you should have none and deserve none ,

You dont get to return a book after you read it cause you didnt like it ..

You dont get to go to the movie ticket counter and tell them .. " Ya know i really didnt like the movie, id like my money back"

You dont buy a musicians latest release and decide you dont like it after and ask for your money back
etc...

All the information is there for anyone to read on these products in this day and age ,If you impulse buy or dont do the proper research (that literraly takes at best 10 minutes these days )
Thats to fuggin bad

Stupid and ignorant , doenst justify a chargeback

Talonsin · October 2016

Until gamers start taking responsibility for their purchases, things will just continue to get worse. Take a look at what we have seen in the last few years...

First we had - Games releasing way too early and unfinished
Then it moved to - Early access - get money before the game is even finished
Now we are at - Crowd Funding - sell the game before it is even started

How many scammer game companies can you name today? Ones like HammerPoint and Digital Homicide... 15 years ago you would be hard pressed to name even one scammer company. The scammers see all the money that people are willing to throw at the very "idea" of a game and more and more of them are coming into the industry. Then add in the fact that game news and review sites all make their money from game companies so they are hesitant to publish negative stories or terrible reviews and you have the perfect recipe for disaster.

Until more gamers wake up and stop pre-ordering, supporting early access and kickstarter without even seeing the gameplay, we will continue to see developers announce features they can not deliver on and waking away from projects without finishing them. If you see a game you are interested in, wait for actual gameplay videos before throwing your money at it. I'm all for supporting indie devs but not until I see their product.

t is so bad now that developers can say anything and get away with it. No Mans Sky absolutely does NOT have multiplayer, Star Citizen changed its Terms of Service to say they no longer have to even deliver a game. What is next? How much worse will things be in 5 years?

goboygo · October 2016

It would probably be easier to get your doctor to give you your money back after you visit his office then it would be to expect the game industry to do the same as a matter of practice.

Wizardry · October 2016

mgilbrtsn said:

There should definitely be an ability to return items, however, for every crazy reason I've read for refusing a refund is mirrored with a crazy reason why they should return. Ideally, people will do a bit of research about the games they purchase and the rules about the retailers they are purchasing from. Also, game companies would ideally be more accurate in their promises and descriptions.

In short, like most everything, there is room for both sides to improve.

You can test drive and research a car,doesn't mean it will not fail you in some capacity much sooner or later.
This would be known as recalls,there is nothing to research on recalls BEFORE they happen.Most likely the manufacturer knew about the problems but they keep it a secret until massive bad media or the law forces the recall.

In gaming,we can simply look at bugs or areas of a game that do not work.WE...I have heard for years about how much work it takes yada yada all BS.I play on a private server and when big problems arise the owner fixes it very quickly,like within one day.Truth is devs are cheap and lazy,often deploying a team to do fixes only once a month,maybe only for a few days as well.

If your car fails for whatever reason,it gets fixed and can lead to them giving you a rental car in the meantime,costing them money.When something fails in your game it is like,we will get to it when we feel like it..shut up.I still remeber a Wow expansion whereby 6 really good quests i was doing all failed,i could not finish any of them and so happens they were the best quests i had done at that time.Well when i asked in chat if they were broken ,chat responded that they were 2 weeks ago in Beta.lmao,so yeah devs like to take your money but not stand behind their product or their laziness.

EpicJohnson · October 2016

Caveat emptor

Krizzd · October 2016

AtrusV said:

Aside from the classic of not allowing you to return a game which you could copy to keep playing (a totally understandable reason, yet unfair since "improving" the marketing of a game is a common practise, piracy being illegal, and demos are almost absent from the entire industry), I mean buying digital content like a premium skin for your character, a vehicle, etc.

In general, I've seen so many times companies twisting the reasons to not to refund anything that it makes me think if we have any right at all. For them, playing with that even once is an "added value service", so it's not refundable. You usually don't have other ways to try what you buy, and even if they have something like a test server, it's usually quite different from the experience in the real servers (for instance, everybody using premium consumables to get a huge advantage)

Not to mention how many lines in the EULA's are illegal. More than a legal document it's almost like a wish list for the company.

What do you think?

PS And yes, I've bought something, I regret doing so, and given they are not willing to refund me I'm even thinking about having a talk with my bank to cancel the charge.

Plain and simple speaking generally yeah the legal framework for virtual goods is at its medieval state atm.
Companies acknowledge it,Goverments acknowledge it ,Customers acknowledge it.

If u consider that the biggest gaming platform steam ''legally'' tax evades countries for decades now, u will understand the state of the current legal framework.(Not to speak about eulas that most of them have zero value in almost any court in world)

Closing u have almost the same rights at moment as with normal goods,the problem is that virtual goods legal framework has lot flaws and legal windows to deny u some of ur rights depending the power of the company u face.So yeah if u chase it u can refund almost anything,the problem is if it worth ur time and effort for this,and thats where they count.

ApexTKM · October 2016

I'm assuming everyone in here are adults saying this, heck even if your a teenager: We all need to take responsibility for our actions if you make a mistake get the wrong game then we just need to be more cautious thats life.

Konfess · October 2016

In today's economy, not everyone can afford to buy every game that comes out. But buying a game, using it until you are done with it, then demanding a refund. First, ask yourself, how many games do you play for 2 hour or less? All, that's fine. Now ask yourself how many games do you play for 3 hour or more? Only 10, now that says something. How many games do you play for 5 hours or more? Two. How many did you finish? One. How many do you feel responsible for paying? Two.

Many might feel this is a comment on the quality of games made today. But it's not. It's a comment of how much time people actually spend playing a game. And not being financially honest with how much they can afford to spend on games.

Phry · October 2016

I can only go by my own experiences, but in the very few cases where i have asked for a refund, i've got it, both from Steam and Amazon, for the most part, it seems like if you are able to provide a valid reason for asking for a refund, then chances are you will get it.
Of course, if you research a game properly beforehand, read reviews, watch youtube videos etc. then your less likely to need to get a refund, and it goes without saying that not preordering games helps this a lot.

laserit · October 2016

Sovrath said:

I think players should read the policies of the company before buying something. If you don't like them, don't buy anything.

Absolutely 110% agreed.

At the same time, games aren't just about Art. They are consumer products, the companies that make them treat them as such. They should have a similar set of rules as other forms of consumer products. What Steam is doing is a good start. Sure some will abuse a refund policy. That is a necessary evil and is one that we all have to deal with, no matter the industry.

DarLorkar · October 2016

EpicJohnson said:

Caveat emptor

So many people seem to expect a 100% satisfaction guarantee, and refund policy anymore. No matter that a little common sense and research would stop the vast, vast, majority of these impulse buys.

Grow up, have a little personal responsibility.

If you want that type of complete protection...it comes with a cost. No more new games or thoughts really...since they may not be perfect or be what everyone likes.

"They" have the freedom to sell just about anything...you have the freedom NOT to buy. Long may it last.

Vermillion_Raventhal · October 2016

To me I am torn. The only game I really felt like getting a refund was Sim City Online. I played hours in the game but I realized the flaws after a day. I just tried to make it work and have faith the game would be fixed.

The trick with this was that in all reviews and beta you were limited to 1 hour play time. You couldn't get the full grasp of the limitations. I also assumed that city size would be expanded but it was apparently impossible for them to do.

If reviewers and test allowed me to see the full scope of the game I wouldn't have bought it. I felt tricked.

kitarad · October 2016

May be they should make it like they do with real life clothing when you buy virtual clothing. Like you cannot return panties and if you use the item for more than a certain time it becomes not return worthy : your sweat stains,Gap dress and such.

For other things like services they should prorate the use of the server and bandwidth while you played. This way it is a two way street. Both sides are happy.

For content you pay for what you used.

Vermillion_Raventhal · October 2016

kitarad said:

May be they should make it like they do with real life clothing when you buy virtual clothing. Like you cannot return panties and if you use the item for more than a certain time it becomes not return worthy : your sweat stains,Gap dress and such.

For other things like services they should prorate the use of the server and bandwidth while you played. This way it is a two way street. Both sides are happy.

For content you pay for what you used.

The reason games were unreturnable was people were buying them copying them and returning the box. Some have codes. Returning a digital game recently bought shouldn't be a problem. Return digital gear shouldn't either.

I think some games should let you try the stuff in game for an hour or let you wear it in a virtual store lol.

AtrusV · October 2016

Vermillion_Raventhal said:

kitarad said:

May be they should make it like they do with real life clothing when you buy virtual clothing. Like you cannot return panties and if you use the item for more than a certain time it becomes not return worthy : your sweat stains,Gap dress and such.

For other things like services they should prorate the use of the server and bandwidth while you played. This way it is a two way street. Both sides are happy.

For content you pay for what you used.

The reason games were unreturnable was people were buying them copying them and returning the box. Some have codes. Returning a digital game recently bought shouldn't be a problem. Return digital gear shouldn't either.

I think some games should let you try the stuff in game for an hour or let you wear it in a virtual store lol.

Totally agree, plus I've seen comments in this thread related to me as if I was buying an entire game, copying and refunding it, or just abusing the system lots of times. This was the first time I regretted a purchase and wanted a refund, and that's when I found the poor legal framework that regulates this field.

If companies want to stick to their miserly attitude then don't be surprise people go back to copy their games illegally in order to try them. I think it's worse for them in the long term, because if they deny the customer to chance to see what they are going to buy and then they refuse any reimbursement (even though they can limit it to a certain amount of times, or delete every digital object in the player's account) chances are that from pirating a game to test it, people eventually become too miserable to buy the game to show appreciation, and that usually comes when they despise the policy of a company. I think there are more people willing to pirate EA or Ubisoft's games than other indie companies (not to mention if indie games are cheaper and have a better quality/cost rate)

PS I used to copy some games before I started to like companies and buy their products to support the industry. But if they piss on their customers and write absurd EULAs (absurd because they are against the law in many cases), their former customers will piss on them.

waynejr2 · October 2016

ApexTKM said:

I'm assuming everyone in here are adults saying this, heck even if your a teenager: We all need to take responsibility for our actions if you make a mistake get the wrong game then we just need to be more cautious thats life.

You should act as an adult which means to take responsibility in the situation. Don't buy any games you aren't 100% sure you will like. No if ands or buts.

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